Looking for Answers Definitive ATF fluids post

[Bill R.]

I would like to get some answers on the Lifetime atf fluids and in light of Mr. Graybeard and Tiger both saying they have used the Pennzoil product with no ill effects , thought i would start a thread trying to dig up as much info as possible

First off the only claims for pennzoil multi vehicle atf that i found that said it was ok for replacing various lifetime fluids was from a pennzoil dist. Johnryoung.com. Their data sheet indicated that it was ok but the pennzoil home website doesn't. They don't have a tech. hotline number to call for info only an email address and i didn't want a secretary to randomly answer my trans fluid query.

Then i searched for every body who makes any claims at all for replacements for any of the 4 special atf's that BMW or ZF specifies. Amsoil states clearly on their website that their synthetic atf is a suitable replacement for ESSO LT 71141 and the BMW 7045E but they don't mention the Shell La 2634.

Kendall versa trans is also supposed to be suitable for a replacement for all 4 of the bmw fluids. On a kendall dist. website i found this document but the same info was not on the Kendall website itself. There was a tech info hotline however and i called it this morning. The fellow that i talked to stated that yes it was a suitable replacement for these bmw fluids. But he also stated that if it was still under warranty he would stick with the manufacturers specs to avoid any potential argument from the manufacturer that you used a fluid that wasn't approved by them. He also said that if it was off warranty he wouldn't hesistate to use it and that they had tested the fluid in all the applications that specified special fluids with no problems. Here's various documents that i've found so far, since i'm limited to 4 per post i'll put them in additional posts. Any body else who has found any other sites or different fluids that also are compatible please post on this thread. Thanks.

[Bill R.]

that i've found




I would like to get some answers on the Lifetime atf fluids and in light of Mr. Graybeard and Tiger both saying they have used the Pennzoil product with no ill effects , thought i would start a thread trying to dig up as much info as possible

First off the only claims for pennzoil multi vehicle atf that i found that said it was ok for replacing various lifetime fluids was from a pennzoil dist. Johnryoung.com. Their data sheet indicated that it was ok but the pennzoil home website doesn't. They don't have a tech. hotline number to call for info only an email address and i didn't want a secretary to randomly answer my trans fluid query.

Then i searched for every body who makes any claims at all for replacements for any of the 4 special atf's that BMW or ZF specifies. Amsoil states clearly on their website that their synthetic atf is a suitable replacement for ESSO LT 71141 and the BMW 7045E but they don't mention the Shell La 2634.

Kendall versa trans is also supposed to be suitable for a replacement for all 4 of the bmw fluids. On a kendall dist. website i found this document but the same info was not on the Kendall website itself. There was a tech info hotline however and i called it this morning. The fellow that i talked to stated that yes it was a suitable replacement for these bmw fluids. But he also stated that if it was still under warranty he would stick with the manufacturers specs to avoid any potential argument from the manufacturer that you used a fluid that wasn't approved by them. He also said that if it was off warranty he wouldn't hesistate to use it and that they had tested the fluid in all the applications that specified special fluids with no problems. Here's various documents that i've found so far, since i'm limited to 4 per post i'll put them in additional posts. Any body else who has found any other sites or different fluids that also are compatible please post on this thread. Thanks.

[Bill R.]

as well



that i've found

[Kalevera]

The only sliver of info I have to add to this is that the fellow who teaches the ZF tech sessions for BIMRS, who incidentally is down Winfred's way, runs some kind of regular old Dex III ATF in his E34 540. He apparently converts them to regular ATF, with no ill effect, after rebuilding them.

Looks like the Kendall product is a good alternative, but it could just be their marketing department hunting for new revenue :)

[BigKriss]

This post is interesting; how can one fluid be compatible with two different fluids at the same time; for example the Kendall fluid is compatible with dexron 3 and the esso LT71141 fluid. I'm assuming the ingredients of these two fluids are different; so how can the Kendall fluid work with both without problems.

In Australia I'm quoted roughly aud$330 for 20L of the esso fluid and aud$170 for 4L of it.

[Tiger]

If you look at Pennzoil website... without going into the data sheet. It said suitable for all BMW with an asterisk... the asterisk said except BMW 6 speed tranny as found in 7 series.

http://www.pennzoil.com/products/trans_fluids/mv_atf.html

That is consistent with that data sheet you found.

[Bob in San Jose]

Bill,

I have been using Redline D4 in my 540 since 80,000 miles, now at 120,000, with no issues.
I went to it when I was getting "Trans Program" messages and was looking for an alternative to the Shell recommended fluid at $30+ per liter.

At the time I replaced the filter and fixed a small leak so Idon't know if one or all of these fixed the "Trans Prog" problem but I haven't seen one since.

Bob

[BillionPa]

D4 is the bomb diggity!

just remember to replace it at least every 50K miles (30K is my interval due to my driving style)

[Bill R.]

Quaker state which is the same product as pennzoil multivehicle atf and also some stuff from valvoline

[Bill R.]

more

[Bill R.]

able to determine if its actually correct that is ... is that esso 71141 is esso's
designation for conventional dexron fluid type III , the most commonly used fluid of all automatic trans fluids. The designation LT71141 stands for LifeTime and has a greater amount of additives package in it to last for a lifetime supposedly. I've found a number of sites that state something along this line. But i don't know if its true or not. My knowledge of this subject is lacking , thats why rooting around in my spare time.





This post is interesting; how can one fluid be compatible with two different fluids at the same time; for example the Kendall fluid is compatible with dexron 3 and the esso LT71141 fluid. I'm assuming the ingredients of these two fluids are different; so how can the Kendall fluid work with both without problems.

In Australia I'm quoted roughly aud$330 for 20L of the esso fluid and aud$170 for 4L of it.

[Tiger]

WOW... Statement from Valvoline... that further confirms their product is compatible with BMW fluids... and they stand behind it. I was going to put Maxlife in my tranny but can't find it locally. I remembered seeing their Maxlife sheet that said compatible with LA2634... Pennzoil was so much easier to find, so I went with Pennzoil.

Interesting German Quaker State version... they said synthetic... I thought it was semi-synthetic. Nevertheless, it said compatible.

[Tiger]

Wow... even better.

[Bill R.]

updated letter from Valvoline stating the same thing on the max life and some more charts for it. Also the Castrol website is one of the few that states right on their site that the import multi vehicle fluid is a suitable replacement for LA 2634 and Esso LT 71141.... So the choices appear to be getting more and more. But so far Kendall Versan trans is the only one that appears to be compatible with the 4 most common fluids hard to get fluids used in Bmw
LA 2634 Esso LT 71141 Texaco ETL 7045E and 8072B, since my wife's e46
has the ZF steptronic in it, I'll probably go with the Castrol or the Valvoline ATF's since those are the most common around here and reasonably priced as well.

A few minutes ago i also called the valvoline tech line to add to the number of tech lines i've called. The oil tech guy that i talked to here stated that:
Yes, even though its not currently listed on the website Maxlife atf is a suitable substitute for LA 2634 and LT71141, he seemed familiar with the products that i mentioned. I asked him for documentation to that effect and if it was posted on the web anywhere, he said he was holding the documentation in his hand and could fax it to me. I don't have a fax though, since i now do virtually everything over the web.

Here the Castrol website page and some valvoline info thats more current.

[Tiger]

Whoa... seems like everyone is stating their stuff is compatible... That's amazing as compared to 5 or 6 years ago... only Pennzoil/Quaker State (same company) and Valvoline Maxlife said is compatible... Redline over the email stated their product is also compatible... Don't remember about Amsoil.

This is amazing. Great job BillR!

[rob101]

awesome :D these helps alot of people out with other 5 speed autos, like for example the 300ce-24 which i keep drooling over.

[genphreak]

awesome :D these helps alot of people out with other 5 speed autos, like for example the 300ce-24 which i keep drooling over.Guys Guys guys, I've been saying for years;

ZF RECCOMMEND Castrol synthethic Transmax.

Big K and I have had great results with it...

Kriss was the first to find and use. I later found the ZF chart that recommended it in particular for the ZF4 and 5HP22 trannies, basically anything filled with Dexron II at birth.

:) Nick

If I can get a moment I will find it and post it up for y'all so see- for some time all I could get was 'use of antyhing else is not reccommended' (for good reasons I suspect- there are a lot of **very** wide and vague claims about suitability in all kinds of applcations made by lubricant people out there

[BigKriss]

thats for normal transmission fluid though. not the lifetime stuff.


Guys Guys guys, I've been saying for years;

ZF RECCOMMEND Castrol synthethic Transmax.

Big K and I have had great results with it...

Kriss was the first to find and use. I later found the ZF chart that recommended it in particular for the ZF4 and 5HP22 trannies, basically anything filled with Dexron II at birth.

:) Nick

If I can get a moment I will find it and post it up for y'all so see- for some time all I could get was 'use of antyhing else is not reccommended' (for good reasons I suspect- there are a lot of **very** wide and vague claims about suitability in all kinds of applcations made by lubricant people out there

[Bill R.]

castrol fluids bottles yet , but the closest autozone does.. They now have
a multivehicle ATF for Imports for 3.99 and they have a domestic vehicle multivehicle ATF for 3.19..... I bought some of the castrol import multivehicle today. Here's what the bottle looks like and it states clearly on the back , Recommended for vehicles that require LA 2634 and LT 71141.....

[BillionPa]

the Redline D4 oil has a pour point of -60C, flash point 225C, 100C viscosity of 7.5cSt, making it seem superior to all the synthetic blend fluids and even the Amsoil ATF, possibly even better than LT-71141, which is one of the best synthetic fluids out there (the shell stuff is a blend)

[genphreak]

Bill, have you seen the official guide from ZF? I've not got the time to check right now, but I found this finally. It is the most up to date I've seen to date... just hope it helps. :) Nick

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[ryan roopnarine]

i think that a novel test of these "multi-vehicle" atfs would be to take one that says it is acceptable for hondas, put it into a honda, and see if (it) gives the transmission the shudders--that seems to a rigorous test of flexibility. not to threadjack, but has anyone tried the new dexron 6 yet?

[Tiger]

That's awesome! 4 bucks compared to over $30? Alright. I bought Pennzoil at about $3.19 long ago.

[Bill R.]

is to find fluids that are documented in writing from the company that indicate that they are compatible with the 4 fluids that bmw uses. D4 probably works fine but i don't see any documentation to that effect on the bottle or on Redlines website.... Its kind of hard to tell a customer that, yes it will work fine on your $3500 steptronic transmission when there is nothing on the bottle to verify it. The only 2 that i've seen with my own eyes are the Valvoline mercon V and this castrol which both state on the back recommended for La2634 and LT71141. Amsoil also states it on their website and backs it up with the amsoil warranty.





the Redline D4 oil has a pour point of -60C, flash point 225C, 100C viscosity of 7.5cSt, making it seem superior to all the synthetic blend fluids and even the Amsoil ATF, possibly even better than LT-71141, which is one of the best synthetic fluids out there (the shell stuff is a blend)

[Bill R.]

already seen the guide as well as some of the other zf spec sheets on their website. The only problem is that they only list the fluids for the bmw's that are certified by ZF.... The last few days i've now talked to 3 different oil techs on various company hotlines. One thing that all 3 mentioned is that in the future none of the oil companies are going to pay for the certification and licensing process that various car and transmission manufacturers want them to. They are all going to do their own inhouse testing and label it themselves if its compatible and they are willing to back it up. Evidently this deal with dexron licensing is pissing some of them off. Since they can't use the name dexron valvoline is going to call their dexron fluid dexmerc and Chevron is now calling their dexron fluid MD3 i think..




Bill, have you seen the official guide from ZF? I've not got the time to check right now, but I found this finally. It is the most up to date I've seen to date... just hope it helps. :) Nick

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[Bill R.]

Australia and Europe are different than that ones we get in the US. Transmax Z is the fully synthetic that looks like it would be usable for all of them. Comparing the spec sheets on it and the american version of import multivehicle looks like the tranmax z is a little better and the semisynthetic US import multivehicle falls just behind it but ahead of the other fluids in Aus. from castrol. I was comparing US castrol to Aus. castrol and no 2 fluids specs are exactly the same.





thats for normal transmission fluid though. not the lifetime stuff.

[Bill R.]

of the back of the Valvoline mercon V... which is strange because now the valvoline website recommends Maxlife ATF for these specs

[genphreak]

Australia and Europe are different than that ones we get in the US. Transmax Z is the fully synthetic that looks like it would be usable for all of them. Comparing the spec sheets on it and the american version of import multivehicle looks like the tranmax z is a little better and the semisynthetic US import multivehicle falls just behind it but ahead of the other fluids in Aus. from castrol. I was comparing US castrol to Aus. castrol and no 2 fluids specs are exactly the same.It's really weird.

Perhaps the next thing we'll find out, say fromone in the the UK, will blow the oil cartels' naming/labelling fiascos out of the water by telling us they have a re-packaged type that is something but in fact claims to be another. :D it's a mess... I was wondering about the need for the 'DexMerc' name... people are going to be using the wrong stuff left right and centre... :) Nick

[J.DeFeo]

What about those of us with manual transmissions? Specifically, what about the Getrag 260/5 in the 535i? What fluid is compatible with that transmission? Should you ever replace the fluid?

[BigKriss]

Are you saying I can use Castrol Transmax Z as a suitable substitute to Esso LT-71141?

The product data sheet makes no mention of it. (http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/a/AU_Castrol_Transmax_Z.pdf)


Australia and Europe are different than that ones we get in the US. Transmax Z is the fully synthetic that looks like it would be usable for all of them. Comparing the spec sheets on it and the american version of import multivehicle looks like the tranmax z is a little better and the semisynthetic US import multivehicle falls just behind it but ahead of the other fluids in Aus. from castrol. I was comparing US castrol to Aus. castrol and no 2 fluids specs are exactly the same.

[BillionPa]

apparently the 535 manual trans either had a red tag on it, or it didnt. the red tag takes ATF fluid, no tag takes GL-4 gear oil.

[Bill R.]

merely commenting that the transmax z which we don't get seems to have better specs on almost every area than the Castrol import multivehicle which we do get....and the Import multi that we get is usable according to castrol ,make your own inferences from that info.





Are you saying I can use Castrol Transmax Z as a suitable substitute to Esso LT-71141?

The product data sheet makes no mention of it. (http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/a/AU_Castrol_Transmax_Z.pdf)

[Bill R.]

off of the bottom of a 2000 528 that i was working on today. And some additional info.. the number on this pan is mentioned on on this first trans fluid chart but it changes to the number seen here on the second chart. Patrick at bmw has this fluid for 118.00 for 25liters for anybody that needs some.

[632 Regal]

man Bill this is monumental, I hope a bunch of trannies dont go south from an improper switch such as changing just the fluid that escapes during a filter change VS a flush. the flush is pretty much guaranteed to cause failure and I hope people dont do that thing right away.

[Mr._Graybeard]

Wow, what a huge mass of info. Kudos to your investigative skills, BillR ... AND your open mind.

[Mr._Graybeard]

Wow, what a huge mass of info. Kudos to your effort, Bill -- AND to your open mind.

[charlie]

Tiger,
are you going to stick with Pennzoil or use one of the other brands? BillR thanks for all the hard work!


WOW... Statement from Valvoline... that further confirms their product is compatible with BMW fluids... and they stand behind it. I was going to put Maxlife in my tranny but can't find it locally. I remembered seeing their Maxlife sheet that said compatible with LA2634... Pennzoil was so much easier to find, so I went with Pennzoil.

Interesting German Quaker State version... they said synthetic... I thought it was semi-synthetic. Nevertheless, it said compatible.

[charlie]

so BillR...which brand do you prefer to use in place of the Shell LA2634?


is to find fluids that are documented in writing from the company that indicate that they are compatible with the 4 fluids that bmw uses. D4 probably works fine but i don't see any documentation to that effect on the bottle or on Redlines website.... Its kind of hard to tell a customer that, yes it will work fine on your $3500 steptronic transmission when there is nothing on the bottle to verify it. The only 2 that i've seen with my own eyes are the Valvoline mercon V and this castrol which both state on the back recommended for La2634 and LT71141. Amsoil also states it on their website and backs it up with the amsoil warranty.

[BillionPa]

the Esso stuff is far superior to the Shell stuff, so any of the ones that say they are compatable with LA2634 and Mercon V specs should do fine for a Shell replacement. i would go with Valvoline MercV.

the only one i would personally trust as a replacement for Esso is Redline D4, as none of the other brands come close to the actual fluid specs of LT71141

[M20Turbo]

I contacted Red Line Oil, here is Dave's response.


Do you know what label is on the transmission? From '83 to '92 BMW attached labels to their transmissions to indicate the fluid called for.
The label should be affixed to the passenger side bell housing.
BMW's with Green Label - MT-90
Red Label - D4ATF
No Label - MTL

Green or Red label Units with D4ATF or MT-90 use 17mm external hex drain and fill plugs.

No Label Units with MTL use 17mm internal hex drain and fill plugs.

In the differential I would recommend the 75W90.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

[Bill R.]

A little update on the castrol multivehicle import fluid... I've been putting it in
lexus and toyota in place of T-IV , nissans in place of D-matic and honda's in place of Atf Z1 for the last couple of weeks. So far every one i've put it into its worked fine shifted smooth yada yada. But boy does it stink! Definitely wears gloves when handling or pouring or you'll really reek, far worse than other dexron atf's.

[ryan roopnarine]

all of this talk of germanian and nipponese transmission fluid compatibility....it's 8 years later, and yet nobody has made a synthetic yet that explicitly works (or is stated ok) for the mercon v application--and the mercon v/mercon I mixups did kill transmissions. i'm curious as to which of these multi-purpose fluids is going to kill which/what transmissions. i'm surpised that the multi-fluid didn't make the honda shudder bill, but you'd probably know better than me about that.

[Tiger]

Stinky new ATF smell? Geez... like we need another stinky fluid for our cars.