RIP - Mass shooting victims in Virginia

[SharkmanBMW]

Scary ****.

32 dead so far, similar amount wounded.

[///Sniper535]

Yeah, I heard about it. I have a few friends over there. They all seem to be ok.

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

33 now,time to amend the constitution,ban the N.R.A,retire Heston and realise that bullets hurt? We over here are starting to suffer from the problems US had twenty years ago, there are parts of major cities in UK that you dont go to with an E34 unless its armoured..,I sympathise with US citizens for your losses.

[Jehu]

Surely you jest.. This University is what is known as a "gun free zone". If Staff, students and faculty were armed at their discretion someone could have TAKEN THIS FREAK OUT!.

[nixter]

33 now,time to amend the constitution,ban the N.R.A,retire Heston and realise that bullets hurt? We over here are starting to suffer from the problems US had twenty years ago, there are parts of major cities in UK that you dont go to with an E34 unless its armoured..,I sympathise with US citizens for your losses.

+1

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

If staff, students and the faculty were armed at their discretion?? See your point but the only people who should carry arms in a faculty like that should be well trained,not students!Maybe I was a bit extreme on the NRA but quite simply guns are for trained, stable people who have experience of using them,period.

[Jehu]

There is no reason to assume untrained people will be routinely carrying guns. The fact remains in states such as where i live in NH where a large portion of the population carry firearms and coincidentally gun violence is proportionally extremely low ,people conscientiously seek out and receive training in proper handling and use of firearms so the idea that allowing citizens to exercise their Constitutionally protected rights bear arms is letting a bunch of loose cannons with no idea how to handle them free to rove about drawing their gun at the drop of a hat is baseless propaganda.

[nixter]

that's all nice but where there's smoke there's fire, and where there's dead people with wholes in them there are guns, more specifically, "loose cannons with no idea how to handle them roving about drawing their guns at the drop of a hat" Unless people want to submit to serious psychological testing as well as background checks for gun ownership AND be criminaly responsible for the loss of a gun then the problem continues. Personally I'd prefer an all out ban. Guns are for killing, period.

And yes, I realize I'm pissing in the wind here preaching to a largely biased US audience.

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

Fair point well put.However the majority may be sane but the minority are round the bend.Giving them the right to bear arms is surely not sensible,so how about stricter qualifications for a licence? Over here getting a revolver licence is nigh on impossible outside service personel and a shotgun licence is only given to those without a criminal record, so guns are rare.Anyone who has had to use a weapon at war(me) will not want the responsibility again, a lesson I suspect Iraq is teaching a lot of people.

[Jehu]

that's all nice but where there's smoke there's fire, and where there's dead people with wholes in them there are guns, more specifically, "loose cannons with no idea how to handle them roving about drawing their guns at the drop of a hat" Unless people want to submit to serious psychological testing as well as background checks for gun ownership AND be criminaly responsible for the loss of a gun then the problem continues. Personally I'd prefer an all out ban. Guns are for killing, period.

And yes, I realize I'm pissing in the wind here preaching to a largely biased US audience.

When you've grown tired of living in a fantasy world we'll welcome you back in Reality. It is clear this guy knew how to handle guns and if there were just one individual who also knew and had one in his vicinity they could have responded and killed this mindless assassin before he was able to slaughter everyone he did. If you persist in believing guns as such can ever be eradicated from among us you, i believe, could qualify for government assistance because you are clearly delusional. Preventing law abiding, thoughtful Citizens from exercising their Constitutionally recognized and protected God given right to defend themselves is the real crime as you will always have these insane individuals going off the deep end from time to time, it will never be otherwise so disarming the innocent merely forces them to become unwilling victims of otherwise stoppable lunatics.

[rob101]

First thing i heard when i turned the TV on at 6 am this morning, very sad. I am confused as to why people always talk about guns being the problem. The question in my head is why would someone do something like this? What motivates someone to do it?

[nixter]

"Constitutionally recognized and protected God given right to defend themselves"

I agree! Ban guns and everyone can defend themselves the way GOD intended, with fists!

The Constitution is more of an excuse to bear arms than a right. It was created in time when there was a real threat of civil war and a household needed to protect itself. That is simply not the case today.

As for fantasy land, I'm quite happy here (Canada) where I don't worry about these problems on such a scale.

Also, please refrain from personal insults ie "i believe, could qualify for government assistance because you are clearly delusional". This is a debate, let's leave the fecal flinging to the monkeys.

[Boone.Msi]

So you wanna take guns out of the hands of enthusiast, collectors, trainers, etc.? If someone wants a gun bad enough they will get one, taking away guns will only leave people even more unprepared and unequiped to take out criminals...

Say you take away guns? then what are you gonna do, ban steak knives? QFT, and enough with the banning of guns discussion, its completely stupid.

[weiss_535is]

"Constitutionally recognized and protected God given right to defend themselves"

I agree! Ban guns and everyone can defend themselves the way GOD intended, with fists!

The Constitution is more of an excuse to bear arms than a right. It was created in time when there was a real threat of civil war and a household needed to protect itself. That is simply not the case today.

As for fantasy land, I'm quite happy here (Canada) where I don't worry about these problems on such a scale.

Also, please refrain from personal insults ie "i believe, could qualify for government assistance because you are clearly delusional". This is a debate, let's leave the fecal flinging to the monkeys.


I have to agree, It doesn't seem to be as much a problem in other countries where it is not so easy to obtain firearms.. Either way it's just plain sad.

[Jehu]

"Constitutionally recognized and protected God given right to defend themselves"

I agree! Ban guns and everyone can defend themselves the way GOD intended, with fists!

The Constitution is more of an excuse to bear arms than a right. It was created in time when there was a real threat of civil war and a household needed to protect itself. That is simply not the case today.

As for fantasy land, I'm quite happy here (Canada) where I don't worry about these problems on such a scale.

Also, please refrain from personal insults ie "i believe, could qualify for government assistance because you are clearly delusional". This is a debate, let's leave the fecal flinging to the monkeys.

I said "if you believed banning guns could ever actually remove them from our presence" you were delusional. There's no need to take it as an insult,delusions can often be remedied and theres' no shame in it.
Our Constitution explicitly states it recognizes certain Inalienable Rights. This means the Rights being recognized preexist with each Citizen proceeding from their Creator,we come with these rights and the Government is recognizing this and declaring it stands to protect them. You must be still quite young and existing in and idealist's mindset.

[onZedge]

No insults or fecal flinging here. But can you explain why the US murder rate for males 15-24 is 24.4/100,000 and Sweden's is 2.3/100,000. Swedes are required to carry guns. At least the last time I checked.

Check it out for yourself:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-toughcrime.htm
It seems tougher laws only increase the crime rate.

[Jehu]

I have to agree, It doesn't seem to be as much a problem in other countries where it is not so easy to obtain firearms.. Either way it's just plain sad.

This was one guy. Surely you don't believe Nobody other than the military or Police can even lay their hands on a gun in Countries where they are otherwise banned from being owned by Citizens do you ? Its simply not the case. If someone is intent on obtaining a gun and murdering people he's not going to care weather he buys it from a criminal in an alley or Pub or goes thru a Government background check and is issued a permit. My point the actual elimination of guns can simply never be achieved and to believe it can be by simply telling citizens they face penalties for being discovered with one is just laughably ridiculous and just renders innocent people helpless targets. Guns will still exist,the technology to manufacture them can not be erased from the consciousness of humankind. This University apparently chose to declare itself a "Gun Free Zone" . I'm not sure what that means because the 2nd amendment guarantees your right to Keep and Bear arms so perhaps its some kind of condition for admittance to the Campus that you must leave your gun at the entrance. The campus police staff was utterly ineffectual here so armed students, staff or teachers could have shot this guy. Professor so and so reached into his desk door and drops the guy or Student such and such reached into his backpack and problem solved.. but the mindset i see coming up here has nullified that possibility and we have 31 dead people. Hope you're happy.

[nizmainiac]

that really sucks, RIP , respect

[mattyb]

Hi Nix, i was watching a program on fox the otherday and it stated that in 2003 there was only one murder victim in Canada for the year, is this possibly true?

[nixter]

Fox? It must be true. :)

[nixter]

but the mindset i see coming up here has nullified that possibility and we have 31 dead people. Hope you're happy.

Wow, I never realized my socialist hippy brethen and I were responsible for these deaths! Excuse me while I go turn myself in.

[Macv]

This is scary from the point of view, that I'll be going to college next year.

[632 Regal]

+6

No insults or fecal flinging here. But can you explain why the US murder rate for males 15-24 is 24.4/100,000 and Sweden's is 2.3/100,000. Swedes are required to carry guns. At least the last time I checked.

Check it out for yourself:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-toughcrime.htm
It seems tougher laws only increase the crime rate.

[bigtisas]

I am all for banning guns. I came from a gun-free country and we never have any high school or University shootings. Never. Yes, bad people or gangsters can use knive to kill but they cannot hurt as many people as guns do.

[dolfan13]

This country was founded on killing.Kill the Indians so on and so forth.It will never change. Overall the human race cant figure it out.

[jgardia]

This country was founded on killing.Kill the Indians so on and so forth.It will never change. Overall the human race cant figure it out.

And today is not different. How many dead iraquis can you count since US government decided Iraq's invasion? I'm not anti American, in fact I have lots of friends there, but at some point you have to realize that 1 US life == 1 Iraqui life == 1 human life.
I feel very sorry about this 33 people in Virginia, they don't deserve that, but they are not the only ones.

[repenttokyo]

No insults or fecal flinging here. But can you explain why the US murder rate for males 15-24 is 24.4/100,000 and Sweden's is 2.3/100,000. Swedes are required to carry guns. At least the last time I checked.

Check it out for yourself:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-toughcrime.htm
It seems tougher laws only increase the crime rate.


Speaking as someone who has actually been to Sweden, Swedes don't walk around carrying guns, that is completely absurd. Is that really the basis of your argument?


And regarding tougher laws increasing crime rate, well, that simply isn't the case in the country that I live in, so I don't understand the link you provided - it only seems to undercut your point....You seem to be mis interpreting more police officers as equaling tougher laws...and that is not the case. In Canada, we have restrictive laws in some areas, like weapons, but we don't have harsh sentencing in others, like drugs. And we don't have a ton of people in prison / employed as cops. There does exist a world between the two extremes....


Incidentally, and I'm not commenting on whether it is actually true or not, but the claim made by your link here:

" So crime is significantly correlated to police and corrections spending, incarceration rates and high-school dropout rates. "

is really bad "science", if all they are using as a supporting argument are the numbers in their posted tables. Statistical analysis goes quite a bit deeper than what they have posited.

[repenttokyo]

Hi Nix, i was watching a program on fox the otherday and it stated that in 2003 there was only one murder victim in Canada for the year, is this possibly true?


sadly, no, that isn't true. There were 548 murders in Canada in 2003 - the lowest number in 35 years. This is in a population of 30 million.

As an aside, still using 2003 stats for Canada:

"28,000 robberies in 2003, 14% involved a firearm, 38% were committed with a weapon other than a firearm, and nearly half were committed without a weapon."

It seems that the argument that ordinary citizens need to be armed in order to protect themselves against armed criminals falls flat in my country - I have a very low chance of running into anyone packing a gun, even when that person is robbing me!

[RockJock]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/343354,vatech041607.article

[Jimbo]

First thing i heard when i turned the TV on at 6 am this morning, very sad. I am confused as to why people always talk about guns being the problem. The question in my head is why would someone do something like this? What motivates someone to do it?

This is the main point, I really don't understand why this devolved into an argument about gun control? If this psycho was in a country with stricter gun laws he might have simply purchased a gun on the black market, or used a bomb, or run down a crowd of people in his car...

I just wonder why this guy couldn't just kill himself and end it, he had to take so many innocent people with him...

[rob101]

This is the main point, I really don't understand why this devolved into an argument about gun control? If this psycho was in a country with stricter gun laws he might have simply purchased a gun on the black market, or used a bomb, or run down a crowd of people in his car...

yeah, I don't agree with that. Do you just wake up one day and say, "hmm i think i'll goto the black markets today." You have to know those kinds of people they aren't exactly open to the general public, unlike a gun shop.

[Zeuk in Oz]

I said "if you believed banning guns could ever actually remove them from our presence" you were delusional. There's no need to take it as an insult,delusions can often be remedied and theres' no shame in it.
Our Constitution explicitly states it recognizes certain Inalienable Rights. This means the Rights being recognized preexist with each Citizen proceeding from their Creator,we come with these rights and the Government is recognizing this and declaring it stands to protect them. You must be still quite young and existing in and idealist's mindset.
Perhaps we should be thinking of the victims and their families at this time.

It would be interesting, however, if the killer turns out to be set up by the US government to help them introduce stricter gun controls.

Such a thing might well have happened at Port Arthur in Oz before our gun laws were strictly curtailed. Many of the facts seem to point to this possibility.

Whatever the case, Jehu, I'm sure the NRA would be glad to take you on as president. ;)

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

My wife is half Chinese, I'd better sleep with one eye open in case she's a sleeper agent.

Or

Better yet I'll interogate her tonight ....all night and make her sleep on the wet spot.

[yy101]

I should say all the usual RIP to the victim's and sympathy to their families etc etc but I will get straight to the point since I am a cold cynical c*nt...

Meanwhile in other news today...

Gunmen kill 13 Iraqi soldiers at checkpoint
Funeral today for Tucson soldier killed in Iraq
Man Who Killed Sister with Ax to be Sentenced Today
35 killed in series of Baghdad blasts
US troops kill three Iraqi police officers
Five US troops killed in Iraq
US fatalities in April hit 50
War crimes against civilians soar in Afghanistan
Three children killed in blast in Afghanistan
Paratrooper from Auburn killed in Afghanistan
Suicide bomber kills 9 Afghan policemen
40 killed in Darfur attacks
China suicide bombing over land dispute
Four killed as new clashes shatter Mogadishu ceasefire
Robbers kill Nigerian toddler in South Africa
Brazil death squad 'killed hundreds'
13 Killed In Train Accident In Southern India

There are many sad and tragic events happening over the world as I type this post...and I really cant see why any of the above arent as tragic as what has transpired at Virginia Tech today?

Actually thats a rhetorical question, I know exactly why.

It is because what happened at Virginia Tech happened...
1. At the USA, where even a pet pig/dog/cat/goldfish that died of overeating makes it onto the news.

2. At a university attended by people not so dissimilar from ourselves even though we could be thousands of miles away and do not know any of the victims or even their friends (more than 3 degrees of separation). But due to the random nature of the event and because it happened in a kind of country and a type of place that we could very well find ourselves, it could very well happen to ourselves next!

3. 19yo marine killed by roadside bomb in Iraq or Iraqi civilian's accidentally killed in "collateral damage" arent as newsworthy or have the same amount of "sympathy factor" as college kids mowed down by a deranged lunatic.

4. I want to appear to be a sympathetic, understanding etc etc person.

5. I want to do what everyone else is doing.

If I am a perfect person I would feel something for all the people whom tragedy befell them and/or their family/loved ones.

If this is a perfect world no tragedy would occur and Rupert Murdoch would be selling tooth picks.

But I am not a perfect person and this is not a perfect world. So I choose not to feel anything to any of the tragic news that has happened today. NONE of them.

Until it happens to someone I know or care about I choose not to follow the sheeples, the "tragedy junkies" and shed crocodile tears, cos that is all it is.

And one final note: guns dont kill people, "dumbass" people kill "dumbass" people.

[rickm]

There are many sad and tragic events happening over the world as I type this post...and I really cant see why any of the above arent as tragic as what has transpired at Virginia Tech today?

How many of them happened on US soil? Just the killings at VT. Look at the other incidents - gunmen in Iraq? Old news. Gangs in Brazil? Old news. Killings in Darfur? Old news.

From what I've heard (from someone working up there on this) is that the killer is Asian and had some problems before this happened.

I own guns but don't carry (I don't have a permit). Should people carry? Yeah, but only if they're trained. An untrained individual who has seen one too many Rambo movie and think they're going to protect everyone is nuts. Ask the guy who used to live across from me, someone asked him for change so he pulled a gun. The guy he pulled it on told him to either use it or put it away. Needless to say someone got their ass handed to them on a platter and it wasn't the guy who pulled the pea shooter.

[guinness]

yeah, I don't agree with that. Do you just wake up one day and say, "hmm i think i'll goto the black markets today." You have to know those kinds of people they aren't exactly open to the general public, unlike a gun shop.
I completely dissagree, I grew up in NYC and could walk up the block and buy a hand gun from the "Black Market" without a problem. The odd thing here is that NYC has some of the strictest gun laws in the USA.

[pingu]

Good points.

In Britain a couple of years back 53 people were killed by terrorist blasts. That's roughly the same death toll as 5 days of car crashes (10 fatalities a day in Britain) yet got far more coverage in the media.

[pingu]

New news makes the airwaves but a life is a life whether it's (yet another) poor civilian in Iraq (old, boring news) or a poor civilian in Virginia (new, "newsworthy" news).

[ILoveMPower]

Guns legal or not, it should never come to this :(

My heart goes out to the families

[RockJock]

My wife is half Chinese, I'd better sleep with one eye open in case she's a sleeper agent.

Or

Better yet I'll interogate her tonight ....all night and make her sleep on the wet spot.


looks like he was south korean .... you should be ok.

... better yet, interogate her anyways, just to be safe ;)

[genphreak]

I completely dissagree, I grew up in NYC and could walk up the block and buy a hand gun from the "Black Market" without a problem. The odd thing here is that NYC has some of the strictest gun laws in the USA.In a country where guns are part of the culture and every mad hatters 'solution' to their problems can be driven in and out by drug barons and distributed by loyal kids and gang members in exchange for drugs?

You at least need some National control before it will work. So much of the mentality is cultural, 32 killed at a US University is already old news itself. Blown up by media to see if they can run it as hard as they did last time (but each time failing to get the results) this sort of thing we'll get completely immune to sooner or later. And the lunatics will even use more firepower as time goes on, as will the terrorists. We'll never stop it happening.

All we can do is take the long term decisions on how to influence this sort of behaviour, and it involves (but also requires) more than legislation, education and patience. It also requires will, discipline and the ability to think rather than go round and round a constitution which was written at a time when killing was a way of life and land.

If everyone has guns, every time someone becomes derranged, agreived, spurned or abused there is a chance they'll use one. No amount of vetting can forsee the effect of these things on an individual, and making guns legal and selling them at the local corner store only makes it more likely they'll be used.

If you want an idea of where things are going, you just have to watch what the early adopters get up to. In the US, students are shooting each other more often and in some places have to be convinced not to be told not to carry weapons into classrooms. Fixing this mentality requires more than sensible policy and law, it requires a decision to improve society's current course- something that has to be worked on at many levels. Whilst God, McDonalds and 24 hour teevee provides so much education, comfort and distraction to motivated voters who care more about their Coke (both kinds) than the lives of people in other countries, nothing's going to change.

We are f***ing ourselves as well as the world, and it is just human idiocy on all its levels in all its races and all its states that is doing it. Few are equipped to live in a global society. Socially few of us are even out of the village. And when the blame gets laid on laws or races, or perhaps spates of demonic, sub-human individuals that are beyond our comprehension (and our teevee reality), you know that the avoidance factor has started and nothing will get done.

If we have a problem we need to learn from the past and change the future to address it. More guns won't help- all of us should get that by now. Personal nuclear weapons in our back yards, LOL? Education and reducing them will take a long time too. Making them unacceptable is only the first step in a long process. It won't happen.

So maybe it is best to keep our minds on the real 'terrorist enemies' and barring the windows, locking the doors, arming the stations and clogging the airports with security- all whilst they come at us another way. Perhaps we should have social arms race, at least we'll be able to do the damage quicker and let the more disciplined societies take over before there is nothing at all left.

[Boone.Msi]

This was one guy. Surely you don't believe Nobody other than the military or Police can even lay their hands on a gun in Countries where they are otherwise banned from being owned by Citizens do you ? Its simply not the case. If someone is intent on obtaining a gun and murdering people he's not going to care weather he buys it from a criminal in an alley or Pub or goes thru a Government background check and is issued a permit. My point the actual elimination of guns can simply never be achieved and to believe it can be by simply telling citizens they face penalties for being discovered with one is just laughably ridiculous and just renders innocent people helpless targets. Guns will still exist,the technology to manufacture them can not be erased from the consciousness of humankind. This University apparently chose to declare itself a "Gun Free Zone" . I'm not sure what that means because the 2nd amendment guarantees your right to Keep and Bear arms so perhaps its some kind of condition for admittance to the Campus that you must leave your gun at the entrance. The campus police staff was utterly ineffectual here so armed students, staff or teachers could have shot this guy. Professor so and so reached into his desk door and drops the guy or Student such and such reached into his backpack and problem solved.. but the mindset i see coming up here has nullified that possibility and we have 31 dead people. Hope you're happy.
exactly my point


Living in los angelos for the first half of my life, then moving to atlanta, Georgia for the second half i have seen enough in first person to know that i should own a gun. You people that are all about banning guns do not have the first hand experience of crime to make a good point on banning guns. Like i said, all your doing is taking the gun out of someones hand that wants to protect people, your not chaning a thing for the criminals.

was the virginia shooter declared to even have a gun permit? i think that would shut alot of people up if he didn't. Heres a little experiment for you people that don't want guns around. Go into the most crime infected/crooked area you know and just hang out for the night. go into their gas stations, walk the street, ask someone for some cigarettes:D

then come back here and tell me you felt completely safe in an area where there are no consequences, and half the people you see can kill you the second they feel like it.

[genphreak]

Its time to stay home and quit learning it seems, its simply getting too dangerous. Best stay scared and focus one's instinct for independence on the power of a gun instead of think about what needs to be done.

Seriously you guys wanna go to school wear everyone is carrying? The freaks are bad enough when they aren't armed. In socieities where arms are banned, few of the criminals carry them and our Police have a hope of surviving. Carrying a weapon here means you get locked up pretty fast. It's a practical deterrent really as crooks like to be able to argue in Court- making them illegal makes it pretty hard for them to walk free.

After all the real criminals are fighting an information war these days...

[70383roadrunner]

33 now,time to amend the constitution,ban the N.R.A,retire Heston and realise that bullets hurt? We over here are starting to suffer from the problems US had twenty years ago, there are parts of major cities in UK that you dont go to with an E34 unless its armoured..,I sympathise with US citizens for your losses.

We should amend the constitution!!! I agree. You should not have the right to vote because idiots get elected. As for guns. Leave mine alone!!!!!!!!!! And you people over there. Just look at Australia. They banned guns over there and the crime rate has trippled. They banned guns in Washington DC and they have the highest crime rate in this country. Check your facts before you speak.

Myabe we should ban cell phones because they are used to detonate bombs!!!!!!! LIKE IN YOUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[70383roadrunner]

Surely you jest.. This University is what is known as a "gun free zone". If Staff, students and faculty were armed at their discretion someone could have TAKEN THIS FREAK OUT!.

I agree. One of the girls brought that point up on The View this morning saying how many women have protected themselves from being mugged or raped because they carried.

[CharlesAFerg]

"Constitutionally recognized and protected God given right to defend themselves"

I agree! Ban guns and everyone can defend themselves the way GOD intended, with fists!

The Constitution is more of an excuse to bear arms than a right. It was created in time when there was a real threat of civil war and a household needed to protect itself. That is simply not the case today.

As for fantasy land, I'm quite happy here (Canada) where I don't worry about these problems on such a scale.

Also, please refrain from personal insults ie "i believe, could qualify for government assistance because you are clearly delusional". This is a debate, let's leave the fecal flinging to the monkeys.

God.. debate time.

Well in the Netherlands the resistance destroyed the records of all citizens so that the nazi SS couldn't get their hands on it - that made it nearly impossible to figure out who was who in NL.

Same goes with gun control. Enough said.


I agree. One of the girls brought that point up on The View this morning saying how many women have protected themselves from being mugged or raped because they carried.

More likely even if people had the right to carry firearms,they would carry less than lethal instead - but it applies just the same, they could have stopped him.

[Boone.Msi]

different countries, different areas, different people = different opinions. I doubt this debate is gonna go anywhere other than around in circles. For those with less crime, consider yourself lucky. last month, i almost got carjacked near campus. I would have, if i didn't speed up when i saw him coming at me with a knife... by guess who? an illegal mexican, think they would have found him?

Last year i had two tinted suburbans follow me through the backroads of Atlanta, if i didn't know my way around, who knows what? I don't even know what they wanted...my car, credit cards, cash? They're like vultures down here, they will fight equally wether its a scrap or a full carcus...

[70383roadrunner]

"Constitutionally recognized and protected God given right to defend themselves"

I agree! Ban guns and everyone can defend themselves the way GOD intended, with fists!

The Constitution is more of an excuse to bear arms than a right. It was created in time when there was a real threat of civil war and a household needed to protect itself. That is simply not the case today.

As for fantasy land, I'm quite happy here (Canada) where I don't worry about these problems on such a scale.

Also, please refrain from personal insults ie "i believe, could qualify for government assistance because you are clearly delusional". This is a debate, let's leave the fecal flinging to the monkeys.


That is correct. We ARE in a war. Thank you George Bush for doing something right and not taking away our rights. We have been a war since the constitution was written. WW1 WW2 Korea Viteman ETC.TEC ETC. I'm sure you guys up in Canada will be upset if you can't hunt!!!!! and they take your guns away.

[guinness]

This debate will go nowhere, because it's a subject that is rarely looked at dispassionately. My own thoughts on the matter are that it's an individuals choice to carry or not, but you would be a fool to carry without taking at least an NRA firearms safety course.

[trumpetr]

Im curious to hear what our Aussie members think about gun controll legislation since their countrys' ban. By all accounts, it appears that person-to-person violent crime has skyrocketed since the ban of guns in OZ-- sure,,the shooting death rate has dropped,,,,but the assault and robbery rate is way up, or so it seems.

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

looks like he was south korean .... you should be ok.

... better yet, interogate her anyways, just to be safe ;)


No wonder she didin't crack....but she liked it anyway

[rob101]

Im curious to hear what our Aussie members think about gun controll legislation since their countrys' ban. By all accounts, it appears that person-to-person violent crime has skyrocketed since the ban of guns in OZ-- sure,,the shooting death rate has dropped,,,,but the assault and robbery rate is way up, or so it seems.
wha?
perhaps stabbings have gone up, but then again people usually survive stabbings. problem is not caused by the gun controls, if you screw around with a cop in victoria you'll still get shot. because the good guys still have guns at least now if they raid your house/ bikie clubhouse and find 50 automatic weapons they have cause to lock up you for a long time and destroy the firearms.

I think an american can't understand that previous to the gun bans we didn't have anywhere near the amount of guns being carried by non-law enforcement people in urban areas as they do. So perhaps you will understand that the ban only took guns off certain farmers and potential bad guys and dramatically reduced the number of firearms in illegal circulation due to a buy back scheme.

PS we don't have any psychos mass murdering people with automatic weapons since the bans and it was following one of these events that the laws were brought in. Problem with america is that every second person it would seems to think they have a right to act like a vigilante because they have gun legal or not. If you have a gun in australia and you're not on a range or a farm you're a criminal by default.

[SharkmanBMW]

I think the USA should implement a law ... if you get caught with a firearm of any kind that is NOT legally registered to you, you go to jail. Let's say a 3 year mandatory sentence. The only people who would potentially be against that would be the bad guys!

It is not those of you who are legit that are the problem.... it is the bad guys who don't always go to the gun store. Put them in jail, the law should be that you have the right to bear arms - if they are registered, not any sawed off shotgun you feel like hiding under your coat.

That would cut down on the illegally obtained and owned guns... people would not want one for fear of jail time, or they would go legit.

Am I dreaming?

[trumpetr]

wha?
perhaps stabbings have gone up, but then again people usually survive stabbings. problem is not caused by the gun controls, if you screw around with a cop in victoria you'll still get shot. because the good guys still have guns at least now if they raid your house/ bikie clubhouse and find 50 automatic weapons they have cause to lock up you for a long time and destroy the firearms.

I think an american can't understand that previous to the gun bans we didn't have anywhere near the amount of guns being carried by non-law enforcement people in urban areas as they do. So perhaps you will understand that the ban only took guns off certain farmers and potential bad guys and dramatically reduced the number of firearms in illegal circulation due to a buy back scheme.

PS we don't have any psychos mass murdering people with automatic weapons since the bans and it was following one of these events that the laws were brought in. Problem with america is that every second person it would seems to think they have a right to act like a vigilante because they have gun legal or not. If you have a gun in australia and you're not on a range or a farm you're a criminal by default.

So then, if it isnt a gun related crime, its ok? Just because you might more survive a stabbing, than a shooting,that means its ok? Assault is assault, and a stabbing is a life threatening injury. Ask any law enforcement officer where you live, what they would do when they are threatened by a knife.
Stabbings can be, and are lethal. Beatings over the head with (take your choice of weapon- club. baseball bat, ect.), can be, and are, lethal.

Not every second american wants to go 'round carryng a gun.
We only wish to reserve the right to protect ourselves from the violence of others when confronted with such.

Yes, we have 911 in our country,,to call the police.
We also have a huge problem with home invasion robberies, clearly associated with methamphetime users.
911= goverment sponsered dial-a-prayer.

[ryan roopnarine]

i think that you might underestimate how easy it is to make a gun, from lack of experience with such things, whatever.

this is an ak-47
http://www.copesdist.com/images/bulgarian%205.45x39%20Receiver%20Flat.jpg

admittedly, it is just the receiver, and you'd have to add the barrel to it. all you have to do to make that piece of flat metal into an ak-47 is fold it in the right places, with the proper finesse, and put a number of welds into it. a few springs and switches to make it fire are trivial, and since the knowledge of how to assemble a trigger group for (it) already exists, it isn't that hard to make a semi auto ak-47 internals set for it. anyone with a lathe and machine shop can turn a piece of suitable metal stock into a barrel for it.

now that i've inadvertently brought up the idea of the evil machine gun into this thread, lemme clear something up for those of you who may have gotten some bad ideas from movies. despite the very inexpensive ability to acquire black-black-black market full auto firearms here in the US (a slam firing sks "converted" to full auto by some mailboxhead is about $300, according to the fbi), the use of full auto items in crime in the US is almost so low to be statistically insignificant. one, because possession of machinegun parts is a very long federal sentence by itself, two, because full auto doesn't really give a decent marksman a tactical advantage, and three, any illegal full auto gun was probably procured by means that rational people wouldn't want to f**k with (ie, this m-16 is only 500 for you, my friend, cause the seller had to shoot a cop to get it). despite what you've heard in the movies, if the atf has told a gun manufacturer to neuter a former full auto military rifle in a certain way, you ARENT getting full auto back by giving your gun to a machinist for 15 minutes. you're only going to get that back by rebuilding the insides of your own designs, as the regulation of machine gun parts (and their rarity to begin with) makes the supply pool nonexistent.





I think the USA should implement a law ... if you get caught with a firearm of any kind that is NOT legally registered to you, you go to jail. Let's say a 3 year mandatory sentence. The only people who would potentially be against that would be the bad guys!

It is not those of you who are legit that are the problem.... it is the bad guys who don't always go to the gun store. Put them in jail, the law should be that you have the right to bear arms - if they are registered, not any sawed off shotgun you feel like hiding under your coat.

That would cut down on the illegally obtained and owned guns... people would not want one for fear of jail time, or they would go legit.

Am I dreaming?

[genphreak]

Crime in Oz up 3x since gun ownership restrictions were imposed? Are you guys smoking? What stats are you talking about? These are the latest I can find (http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0e5fa1cc95cd093c4a2568110007852b/669c5a997eaed891ca2568a900139405%21OpenDocument)(y ou forgot to add your sources). Have you seen how many people get in strife here? Farout you guys need to see real stats! Consider we have almost 20 million people now from all backgorunds, so the percentages are just miniscule.

Here, like in America, there is no need to own a gun to defend yourslef against the natives any more. We have a lot of farmers who need guns to shoot feral animals and it is a big election issue accordingly. But we don't pack at the pub- it never goes down well here.

However I can tell you that the underlying crime rates have not risen in Oz any more than they are likely to rise (ie normal increases due to the influence of drugs, violence in advertising and whatever else is affecting it, Nintendo, PS, whatever... who tells you these statistics guys? Even if it tripled tomorrow there is NOWHERE in Australia I am nor prepared to walk unarmed and alone, or drive my Bimmer (unlocked)- except on dirt roads...

As for having a gun to solve your personal security concerns, how can this help if the freaks get the same equation (as they do). OK you get to shoot them first- if you notice, see and are preapred to fire the first shot. Great odds there. And what do you do when you goto the beach, leave the gun in your towel?

Imagine shooting someone because they were trying to steal your car (is that right?) and then having the ricochet KILL some innocent kid in a pram and then try explaining to the mum your car was being ripped off... let alone jail time.

And if you buy a Glock today, why would the freaks not buy Uzis tomorrow and where does that all end? Arms races happen cause we know that the best armed village wins. Whereas in reality if a nut sees a weapon to be the solution to his personal problems to be violence, he can do 32 times the damage with a pistol than he is likely to do with his bare hands.

And if everyone on campus was armed maybe he'd have walked into that classroom and shot everyone with an M16. I do agree that the issue is not primarily the guns, it is the culture. They are no detterent, these guys want to do maximum damage before they die. Living is not important. And if you pack, you have to be prepared to use it or be killed (check the stats on how many poeple are killed by someone else WITH THEIR OWN WEAPON?)

The US has a personal arms race. How you choose to end it (or die) is up to you.

All I know is that everyone is up the wrong tree. But if I had a gun I wouldn't like the idea of somone taking it off me either, I might decide to turf it myself, but it'd be against all my instincts.

However the problems need to be fixed, not the symptoms. Freaks will always exist and the risk will always be there- it just gets SO MUCH worse once everyone is armed for their own 'reasons' and can do real damage due to PMT, temproary mental trauma, plain madness and/or stupidty.

[whiskychaser]

I just read a whole load of posts. Most of it is bollocks. This isnt about whether US citizens have a right to carry a gun. It isnt about statistics. The swiss army take their guns home but there is little gun crime there. There isnt a rational explanation quite simply because to act like that isnt rational. Remember Dunblane? There are never the answers we want. Any one on here who has kids must be thinking 'there but for the grace of god..' I am.

[Jimbo]

The fact is that gun control is the beginning of a very slippery slope. If the government bans firearms because they are too dangerous, what's next: ban knives because of all the stabbings, then ban alcohol because alcohol can cause people to act violently, then ban cars because people cannot be trusted to handle them responsibly (BTW over 40,000 people per year die in car accidents in the US, far, far more than die from gun violence)... eventually we are all forced to live in our own protective bubbles where we couldn't harm ourselves or anyone else if we wanted to. I mean at what point does personal responsibility come in to play in all this, do we really need or want the government to protect us from everything?

The kid was a psycho. It is unbelievably tragic what he did. However, as I stated earlier in this thread, he would have found some other way to vent his psychotic rage (just look at all the recipes for homemade bombs you can find on the internet). The problem here lies elsewhere, banning guns (and every other device he could have used to harm others) is simply not the answer.

I know this is clichéd, but the guns are not responisble, just as the knife used to stab a mugging victim, or the car that ran over some kid because the driver was on his cell phone, or the combination of chemicals that made up the explosive of some nut case suicide bomber in Iraq are not responsible for the damage they cause. The problems we need to address are with the mindsets that cause people to do these things.

[guinness]

"I know this is clichéd, but the guns are not responisble, just as the knife used to stab a mugging victim, or the car that ran over some kid because the driver was on his cell phone, or the combination of chemicals that made up the explosive of some nut case suicide bomber in Iraq are not responsible for the damage they cause. The problems we need to address are with the mindsets that cause people to do these things."

Jimbo, you got it in one.

[rob101]

So then, if it isnt a gun related crime, its ok? Just because you might more survive a stabbing, than a shooting,that means its ok? Assault is assault, and a stabbing is a life threatening injury. Ask any law enforcement officer where you live, what they would do when they are threatened by a knife.
Stabbings can be, and are lethal. Beatings over the head with (take your choice of weapon- club. baseball bat, ect.), can be, and are, lethal.


guns kill things they are weapons knives can be used to do anything from eat your breakfast to open boxes. you can't ban knives because they are tools as well as weapons.
speaking of which it is illegal to buy or own a double edged knife ie a dagger in my home state. So no stabbings are not okay, but then again can i stab you at 100 m can i stab multiple people from that range as someone with a semi or fully automatic weapon can? you carry a baseball bat in your car at night and you get pulled over in my city they will charge you with a weapons related crime I can guarantee it.

Thing is you can say that it won't work blah blah, but we here in australia live in a society with this harsh gun controls and certainly it hasn't as some people have suggested made things worse. all weapons knives swords etc. are illegal to carry on you in public here. And they certainly do inforce that when it comes to carrying knives.

hence we don't have lots of people acting like vigilantes with deadly weapons, guess which country i'd rather live in, in terms of safety its not the US thats for sure.

[t_marat]

I think what is going on in USA is a case of minority not wanting more strict gun ownership regulation just because of the pleasure carrying/owning a weapon gives them. It is a case of the good of a minority against the good of all.

Protection/fight against crime is the job of the police, not of every guy with a weapon.

[Jehu]

I think what is going on in USA is a case of minority not wanting more strict gun ownership regulation just because of the pleasure carrying/owning a weapon gives them. It is a case of the good of a minority against the good of all.

Protection/fight against crime is the job of the police, not of every guy with a weapon.


BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong. Its the opposite. A minority of weak , fearful and deluded people who can't believe their own lives are worth defending with lethal force when neccesary so they would deny that right to everyone else..mmmkay?They can't accept that we will never rid the world of guns but think that by making it a crime for law abiding citizens to carry them they will keep the stray nut from getting one... That is just plain illogical. Making it a crime to own a gun will not make the guns that already exist disappear. Guns and crazy people like this guy may find each other but making sure ONLY crazy people or criminals have guns only damns the innocent to become their victims. Be assured people like me will never let ourselves be rendered indefensible. Here's a question. If you were in the line of sight of a crazed gunman who had just killed a dozen people and you were next would you prefer nobody else around there were free to carry a gun and shoot your would-be assassin thus saving your life?

[Zeuk in Oz]

The US has a personal arms race. How you choose to end it (or die) is up to you.

Well said Nick ! The whole issue summed up in 2 sentences.

[Ross]

My $.02
Gun control won't stop determined criminals from having them, period. It does help curb the impulsive pissed off person from getting one quite so easily.
Handguns are for killing people. Longarms have other justification. Many of both sort are simply penis extenders in the wrong hands.
Mass killers such as this ******* at VT are invariably cowardly ****s who wind up killing themselves instead of facing the music. The dumbass is dead now so all the "glory" he imagined will be tough for him to experience.
Fact is without a gun he would have had to employ another perhaps close up method of killing. Unlikely I think. Perhaps a bomb, but this seems another genre of kook.
This world is loaded with wierdos. Arming them seems a bad idea to me.

[t_marat]

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong. Its the opposite. A minority of weak , fearful and deluded people who can't believe their own lives are worth defending with lethal force when neccesary so they would deny that right to everyone else..mmmkay?They can't accept that we will never rid the world of guns but think that by making it a crime for law abiding citizens to carry them they will keep the stray nut from getting one... That is just plain illogical. Making it a crime to own a gun will not make the guns that already exist disappear. Guns and crazy people like this guy may find each other but making sure ONLY crazy people or criminals have guns only damns the innocent to become their victims. Be assured people like me will never let ourselves be rendered indefensible. Here's a question. If you were in the line of sight of a crazed gunman who had just killed a dozen people and you were next would you prefer nobody else around there were free to carry a gun and shoot your would-be assassin thus saving your life?
It's not about criminals. Criminals will always find a way of procuring weapons, no matter how strict the legislation is. It's about unstable people. When buying a gun is easy and a lot of people have it, it becomes very easy for the crazy ones to go and find a gun and start shooting.
If gun ownership legislation is strict, likeliness of me being in sight of a crazy gunmen decreases drastically. Just think of how many crazy and meaningless shooting incidents happened in USA in the last 10 years? Some of them in schools.

[Bellicose Right Winger]

Are you a Democrat, Republican or Texan?

You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic Terrorist with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you. You are carrying a Glock .40 caliber, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.

What do you do?

Democrat's Answer:

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
What have I done to provoke this attack?
Could we run away?
What does my wife think?
What does the UN think?
Could I perhaps swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? Does this Glock have appropriate safety built into it?
What kind of message does this gun send to society and to my children? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was taking time stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1?
We need to raise taxes. This is all so confusing!
I need to discuss this with some liberal friends for a few days and try to come to a consensus.

Republican's Answer:

BANG!

Texan's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
Click..... (Reload)
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
Click

Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips or Hollow Points?"

Son: "Can I shoot the next one!"

Wife: "You ain't taking that to the Taxidermist!"

[t_marat]

I get an impression of overly paranoid attitude to the world around. I don't carry a gun or a knife. For some reason nobody has ever shot, attacked me with a knife or a club.
Guess the answer should be not arming everybody, but trying to get the neighborhood safer.

Edit: I am neither Democrat nor Republican. And definitely not from Texas :)

[kick7ca]

Scary ****.

32 dead so far, similar amount wounded.

Not that I don't think this a truly aweful thing that happened, or that the victims families don't deserve unending sympathy, but does it have to be on this board? Aren't we inundated enough by the media about this?
I come here as an escape, cause it's simply about the cars that we love. It's a positive place. I'm sure there are a thousand better places to share your feelings and opinions about this elsewhere.

[Bill R.]

correct this joke on a couple of points , first off no self respecting democrat would be caught dead with a glock, the buick of handguns, They're going to have the HK the bmw of handguns or possibly the sig sauer or the beretta

Secondly the texan needs to inform his little girl better. The silvertips are hollow points.







Are you a Democrat, Republican or Texan?

You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic Terrorist with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you. You are carrying a Glock .40 caliber, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.

What do you do?

Democrat's Answer:

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
What have I done to provoke this attack?
Could we run away?
What does my wife think?
What does the UN think?
Could I perhaps swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? Does this Glock have appropriate safety built into it?
What kind of message does this gun send to society and to my children? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was taking time stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1?
We need to raise taxes. This is all so confusing!
I need to discuss this with some liberal friends for a few days and try to come to a consensus.

Republican's Answer:

BANG!

Texan's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
Click..... (Reload)
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
Click

Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips or Hollow Points?"

Son: "Can I shoot the next one!"

Wife: "You ain't taking that to the Taxidermist!"

[ryan roopnarine]

As a licensed and bonded graduate of the 8th grade, i concur with mr. rickard's sentiment.

[trumpetr]

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong. Its the opposite. A minority of weak , fearful and deluded people who can't believe their own lives are worth defending with lethal force when neccesary so they would deny that right to everyone else..mmmkay?They can't accept that we will never rid the world of guns but think that by making it a crime for law abiding citizens to carry them they will keep the stray nut from getting one... That is just plain illogical. Making it a crime to own a gun will not make the guns that already exist disappear. Guns and crazy people like this guy may find each other but making sure ONLY crazy people or criminals have guns only damns the innocent to become their victims. Be assured people like me will never let ourselves be rendered indefensible. Here's a question. If you were in the line of sight of a crazed gunman who had just killed a dozen people and you were next would you prefer nobody else around there were free to carry a gun and shoot your would-be assassin thus saving your life?

+1 Well said.

[Macv]

correct this joke on a couple of points , first off no self respecting democrat would be caught dead with a glock, the buick of handguns, They're going to have the HK the bmw of handguns or possibly the sig sauer or the beretta

Secondly the texan needs to inform his little girl better. The silvertips are hollow points.

Muhahaha

[genphreak]

Er, with all due respect you need to solve the problem rather than be defeated by it or keep allowing it to get worse. It is not a matter of legislation, there is a raft of changes that need to be made, some short term some long term, because any change in this area requires getting across considerable cultural, commercial and political (and/or idiological) resistance.

The bigger problem we all face in the West (and some other places) is why has this has been allowed to get SO bad and why do our 'elected' representatives get away with **not** providing real solutions that work, or can be asessed in future, to work.

Of course guns in the hands of people that cannot possibly be expected to manage them is only one of the areas showing such unaddressed social decay- i.e.
How many road deaths are acceptable before we invest in more pressing problems?
How low a speed limit can we all put up with (as a solution to all our road-related political issues?
How much gun control do we need?
How little education can we not afford?
How much should society charge its members for healthcare and legal assistance?The pollies only care about the outcomes of these questions if they attract or repel votes.

The question therefore is- WHY do these things have so little influence? - and why do we go on putting up with it?

[Paul in NZ]

a gun is only made for one purpose,and semi automatic pistolsx2(15 shots?) are 4 times as bad.Sure carry your guns but make semi automatis(esp pistols) and military types much much harder to get for joe average...If the guy had a knife it would have been two or three,a "six shooter" probably only six.Does that make it any better...course it does.
Any way my thoughts are with the families and freinds of those killed by this poor guy.Until guns are controlled it will only get worse for you guys.Any one walking down the street here gets the armed police out pronto,our police do not carry arms,a few cars have em I think.

[BigKriss]

This is in today's newspaper;

Gun laws credited as lifesavers
John Garnaut
April 23, 2007
THE tough gun controls introduced after the Port Arthur massacre have probably saved about 2500 lives, economists say.
Debunking a widely reported study to the contrary, their analysis suggests that removing 600,000 guns from circulation has sharply reduced suicide and murder rates.
Andrew Leigh, at the Australian National University, and Christine Neill of Canada's Wilfrid Laurier University found a sharp, statistically significant reduction in murder and suicide.
"There were on average 250 fewer firearm deaths per year after the implementation of the National Firearms Agreement than would have been expected," they said.
Using deaths data since 1915, the authors estimated gun control had led to about 35 fewer murders and 247 fewer suicides annually since 1997. They calculate slightly smaller numbers when their statistical model is restricted to data after 1969.
Their report found no evidence that gun control may have simply caused a substitution from shooting to other killing methods.
"The fact that overall violent deaths have fallen since 1996 … strongly suggests there has not been substantial method substitution," the report says.
The authors slam an earlier report in the British Journal of Criminology that claimed the firearms agreement had no effect on death rates.
That study, by Jeanine Baker from the Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia and Samara McPhedran from the Coalition for Women in Shooting and Hunting, exploited less than a third of the available annual data and used "very dubious" statistical methodology, they say.
The Federal Government's 1997 National Firearms Agreement allowed the buyback of semi-automatic rifles, pump-action shotguns and other firearms. The agreement, which introduced some of the world's toughest gun laws, was negotiated by the Prime Minister, John Howard, 35 people were shot at Port Arthur in 1996.
The most recent reliable figures, for 2002-03, show there were 0.27 firearm-related homicides per 100,000 Australians - about one-fifteenth of the US rate.
"The risk of dying by gunshot halved over the past 10 years," said Philip Alpers, adjunct associate professor at the University of Sydney's School of Public Health.
Earlier this month, the Australian Institute of Criminology reported the rate of gun theft had dropped by 70 per cent since stricter gun laws were introduced.
In NSW, the number of guns in the hands of registered owners has risen in the past six years.
NSW Police Firearms Registry figures show that as of April 9, there were more than 516,000 guns registered in the state.

Source

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gun-laws-credited-as-lifesavers/2007/04/22/1177180487704.html

[CharlesAFerg]

apperently none of the students or staff carried less than lethal.
dumb.