OT: How do you know when you should leave your job.

[rob101]

For about 2 months now I've been looking for a new job it looks like to get the one I really want I will have to wait at least another 3 or 4 months. I have lots of reasons for leaving but sometimes I worry that I am giving up too easy or something.

I mainly hate the culture of this company outside of where i work and I am very concerned that there is no possibility for developing my career at the rate that I am expected to by my peers and profession if I stay where I am(getting whats called a CP Eng).

My question is when do you know that you should leave your job and not and just stick it out? I mean a kind of question that you would have a straight yes or no answer to.

[yaofeng]

When you are not happy and you do not foresee changes coming.

[rob101]

Thanks for that, yeah I didn't want to turn this into one of those 5 pages long I hate my jobs rant that we've had here in the past. So thats the kind of simple answer I want, any other view points?

[BigKriss]

When you don't like it. When you start saying to yourself, "I hate this job", then it's time to leave.

[GJPinAU]

Rob, you're lucky not to have any "dependents" and you are still young enough to leave one place of employment and be accepted at another.
If you're unhappy where you are - CHANGE!

cheers,
Greg

[Tiger]

Not a pro but this is how I see it. It is time to leave when your job pays leave you struggling to survive or barely making ends... this is more like leech job... they suck the life out of you.

But, you got to make the transition, seek other jobs before you leave. There is a protocol on how to leave your old job so beware of your position and what it takes to get out.

[markus]

you didnt mention how long u were at your current job. if you are still doing the shitty work and the company hasnt noticed then yea id start looking.

[rob101]

Not a pro but this is how I see it. It is time to leave when your job pays leave you struggling to survive or barely making ends... this is more like leech job... they suck the life out of you.

But, you got to make the transition, seek other jobs before you leave. There is a protocol on how to leave your old job so beware of your position and what it takes to get out.
yeah I have already checked up on that, I understand that I will probably have a month of hell, but i have no duties that could come back and bite me at a later date.... fortunately.
I once read that you should try and get paid what you're worth and not what you want. ie if you want to get paid more increase what you are worth to the company. I feel that I can't really make big steps to increase my worth where I am which is in stark contrast to the place where I am trying to get a job.

Yeah in response to markus it'll be two years in August. sure its not along time but friends of mine have made significant steps towards being a fully fledged professional engineer (and will probably be one in a year's time) I have not and when i've spoken to my boss about it he could give a rats. That and its costing me an extra $4k per year to drive to the other side of town when the other job is a 15 minute busride away. which leaves my e34 soaking up the garage ambience instead of being driven 400 km per week. Now I know for sure that I will break even or get more money even if my total income is less (because of the reduced transport costs). But the amount of opportunities to get extra training and skills at the other place which is a consultancy, is much larger. I also feel that when the resource boom stops the job market in engineering is going to tighten up so i need to develop myself otherwise i'd be up the creek without a paddle in 5 years time.

Guess the biggest problem is waiting 4 months and pretending everything is hunky dory at work. Because most morning I just don't want to be here. But at the same time i don't want to slack off either, but i find it hard to maintain motivation.

[LunatiC]

These are the factors that I consider to be vital to your decision Rob:

1) When you think to yourself "This job is taking me no-where" or when you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel with the path that your employer has given you (I have experienced this myself)
2) When you think to yourself "This job is so crap"
3) When you think to yourself "This job is so crap and I'm not being paid enough to do it"
4) When you aren't happy with your job due to the points above, or any other reasons

Greg has made a very good point in that if you are unhappy now, it is easier to move onto bigger and better things than when (if?) you are married and have mouths to feed. If you don't make the move now to something better, it will be a lot harder down the track to do the same move -- also you would have had to put up with the same crap for longer, whilst minimising your chances of making a clean break and a smooth transition to a better job.

Good luck Robbo :)

[LunatiC]

I once read that you should try and get paid what you're worth and not what you want. ie if you want to get paid more increase what you are worth to the company.
This is a double-edged sword IMO. I have heard your little stories (and rants :p) in MSN about your employer and how slack they are, if you go around trying your earnest to be the model employee and pick up whatever other people are leaving behind, you may drop into the bottomless pit of your employer thinking "Wow, rob is doing so much and I don't even have to give him a raise!"

Yes, what you said is right, but if you want to be paid more money you have to ask for it. Maybe if you are considering to stay where you are, do the hard yards now and then ask for more money. If they tell you to shove it, then leave and they will most certainly cry and beg for you to come back, since no slack-arse at your workplace is willing to do their job alongside yours.


Guess the biggest problem is waiting 4 months and pretending everything is hunky dory at work. Because most morning I just don't want to be here. But at the same time i don't want to slack off either, but i find it hard to maintain motivation.

Why do you have to wait 4 months?

[rob101]

This is a double-edged sword IMO. I have heard your little stories (and rants :p) in MSN about your employer and how slack they are, if you go around trying your earnest to be the model employee and pick up whatever other people are leaving behind, you may drop into the bottomless pit of your employer thinking "Wow, rob is doing so much and I don't even have to give him a raise!"

Yes, what you said is right, but if you want to be paid more money you have to ask for it. Maybe if you are considering to stay where you are, do the hard yards now and then ask for more money. If they tell you to shove it, then leave and they will most certainly cry and beg for you to come back, since no other slack-arse is willing to do their job alongside yours.



Why do you have to wait 4 months?
well whilst I am applying for other companies also, my main focus is on getting into a grad programme with a particular company (who i know is exactly what i am looking for) who's start date is 2008 now i don't expect to wait that long but it seems that I'll have to at least wait a month or 2 to get an offer at which time i'll have to give one month's notice.

One of the biggest problems with this company is their retard system that has no facility to evaluate staff's salary even if you receive a performance review. Unlike every other company in existance in this sector who does their raises by perf review (i mean isn't that half the point of having a performance review) you just see a magical adjustment at the end of the year and thats it. In 18 months + i have never received a perf review. So whilst i see your point I really have no avenue to ask for such.

[LunatiC]

So whilst i see your point I really have no avenue to ask for such.

Well that pretty much sums things up. You want more money (who doesn't?) and want to be paid the value you think you are worth to a company, and in the mean-time you want to progress up the ladder to success. The company you are with now isn't willing to give you any more money, even if you deserve it, won't give you an avenue to chase it up or contest it, treat you like **** and you can see yourself doing the same job for the same pay (including inflation of course) in 5 years time while all your other friends have moved on.

Methinks you have your decision made :D

[mattyb]

all of the above! In regards to being paid what you are worth the only person who can ever do that is you, for several reasons.

1. others can only estimate what you are worth
2. Only when you are in a a position to hand out the money can you truly allocate it to yourself.

The only way to eliminate competition from other employees is to remove yourself from an equation that has other employees. I truly believe the only way to do this is to become self employed which in your field there are many oppurtunities.You need to find out several things though;

1. What exactly do you care to specialise in?
2. What area are you good in?
3. What are the potentail growth areas for your profession?
4. Are you doing this for the money or are you a career person ( yes sir, no sir)?
5. Are you really good at what you do or are just average?
6. Where is the big money in your profession?


However there is a lot said for motivations to stay where you are, for now anyway.

1. You need to learn how to apply for tenders
2. How do you charge for the quotes?
3. What are the standard service level agreements between clients and consultants?
4. Costs of doing business?

You will find that in general nobody will ever tell you these things if you ask because they dont want you to know. However by staying were you are, they obviously are a decent sized business, this knowledge would be accesable and avialable if you push the right buttons. Extract what information you can while you are there. Delve a bit harder into the scheme of things, ask the questions, make it your business to know. Start preparing for next year and the year after and the year after that. People pay huge sums to go to business schools and colleges to learn what is essentailly free, all you need to do is look. By being with a larger organisation now you are exposed to bigger clients and oppurtunities, make the connections with these people while you can and then scoop them up later when your current employer has folks not working there like you and their clients go looking elsewhere.

Sorry mate I know you wanted a yes or no answer, so yes and maybe no

[genphreak]

I agree whole-heartedly with Matty; Superbly said:

"Extract what information you can while you are there. Delve a bit harder into the scheme of things, ask the questions, make it your business to know. Start preparing for next year and the year after and the year after that."

I have only just gone back to consulting for a while after working for myself for 5 years, and that is because I learned so much before that. (I did 4 years in Mechanical Engineering). I didn't earna lot running my own show, but its still running- and I couldn't say no to this consulting money. 5 years ago I could not believe I'd ever be paid this much.

But I learned as a kid that they don't respect you unless they have to pay you. Find a way to make them or find someone else who will value your skills and focus. Makes it a whole bunch easier to do if you do what Matty says and learn why they think adn do as they do. To do that you have to be good at what you do first (you've certainly no worries there) and then trasncend that to understand their area/s also. With that knowledge there is no limit to what you can do. Writing proposals and tenders is a great way to get the essense of business, but there are things everywhere you can pick up on- just make it your business to know as Matty said, and ask to do other things if you want to learn. Changing companies always helps, don't feel you should stay- especially if you don't think you can learn. Stop learning and you become a leech- I know you are not that, Rob. Your potential lies somewhat beyond Engineering- its not really a place for young people unless you live in China or Germany... why not go apply there? 12 months in der Fatherland... or anywhere else for that matter - blow Brisbane! Go ask Leibherr.ag or whatever it is if they have a job in an interesting place, like Asia or Russia. That would be some fun to get used to...

[Ross]

If you don't agree with the co.'s culture then leave. Peace of mind is more valuable than whatever compensation they offer. Success will be a challenge in a position you hate but will come naturally if you are enthusiastic.

[rob101]

Thanks for everyone's input, I think from my perspective. That my "formative" years would be better spent at this other place or place similar in ethos to them. My friend informed me about this job I am going for that they never had a graduate leave them in 4 years and that makes a strong statement. Firstly that they actually care if someone leaves them, in this company if you leave its theres something wrong with you by default.
Executive summary is that yes it is best to absorb all the info I can ASAP, but i think there is not the support here to do that. So anyway i've worked it out.

I mainly just wanted some outside opinions to null over, thing is sometimes you can miss salient points in your own thinking. But I am sure now I have covered all the bases.

There are opportunities in engineering for young people atm, but i think the biggest problem is finding the right ones. I don't want to work in Australian construction again, it is the most brain dead job in the world. Sometimes I think that they just hire engineers as some one to blame when they screw up.

[Robin-535im]

I mainly just wanted some outside opinions to null over, thing is sometimes you can miss salient points in your own thinking. But I am sure now I have covered all the bases.
But wait - I love posts where I get to ponder someone else's life decisions... don't close the thread just yet! :) You have a window of opportunity here in the meantime to prove that you're the kind of guy who can be successful even when trapped in a crappy situation. Shoot for the new job but take the next 6-8 months to demonstrate in no uncertain terms that you are an asset even when surrounded by dolts.

I've seen a lot of resumes pass over my desk, and one thing that is invariant is that success is a property of the person, not the environment. In fact, being in a tough job setting is a huge opportunity for you to show your mettle. Changing jobs a lot is a sign that people are unable to cope, and when you read a resume with 5 jobs in ten years, you only expect that person to be at your place for 2 years. Of course your first job is different, leaving that after 2 years is fine, as long as it doesn't become a pattern.

Here's where my free advice really begins... The most exciting part is that you're dependent-free and young enough to show unbridled enthusiasm without people thinking you're off your rocker. It's like any other relationship - the less you value it, the more power you have to take risks to change it. The cool thing is you don't have to be in love with your company, you can even hate it a bit. But what you can't do is let yourself do less than excellent work or allow yourself to be convinced that it's okay to drop this lame job since it was a bad place to work anyway.

Anyone can succeed in an environment where everyone is successful. It takes a real, strong-willed, winner to do well in a crappy environment. The worst thing you can do is let the environment beat you by letting thoughts of "it's okay to quit from this job because it stinks anyway..." (not that you're doing that but just as an example) If you lower your self-expectations, you're letting the crappy job win.

Somewhere up the chain are people who care about the company. If you see an opportunity to improve (such as the pay-raise / eval situation), write out a simple plan to make it better. NEVER bring a problem to your boss without a solution. E.g., make yourself a mini-expert in how evaluations can be used properly via 2-3 nights of internet research, write up a plan that says: 1) existing program is this... and it doesn't work because of this..., 2) I suggest a plan like this..., 3) This plan is likely to work because of this... and this... and you will be able to measure success like this... . Take it to your boss first, because a smart employee always looks for a win that makes his boss and his boss's boss look like winners too. If your direct boss poo-poos it, go to his boss and so on. Never talk bad about your direct boss to his supervisor, as tempting as it feels. Dont' ******** people, be positive and confident, and you will be rewarded eventually. And the bonus is, if you make a misstep and mess up somehow, at least you tried your best, and you didn't like that place anyway.

Hard work, enthusiasm, pro-action, are all appreciated much more when there's none of it around. Coworkers / supervisors will try to get you to be "mindless" just like everyone else because you're raising the bar and that's a threat to their way of life... but that's their problem not yours. Hard work and a positive attitude are unbeatable.

And then, next year when the new job opens up, you'll be interviewing for a management position, not an entry-level programmer, because you will be the guy that kicked butt at the previous job in the face of certain doom.

Would you rather the interviewer see in your resume, "Job sucked so I quit to work here" or "Job sucked so I took charge and made it measurably better, made my boss and his boss look like winners (your prospective new boss will appreciate that), and now I want to bring even more success to your company". I guarantee if the new job is worth having there will be other qualified candidates competing for it. Make yourself stand out as a successful person and the job is yours., allow yourself to be beaten by the environment and they might just give the job to someone else...

Was that two cents? Two quid? Just my opinion... HTH and Good Luck!!

[Zeuk in Oz]

Matty & Nick have both made valid points, Rob, many of which I agree with.

Just to temper their enthusiasm, may I suggest that self employment can have its down sides.

I would suggest exploring Nick's suggestion of finding employment overseas as this will not only look good on your CV, it will get you out of your comfort zone in that you will be learning new things in a completely different environment. If they don't speak English, even better, you will pick up a language as well.

At this stage I would also suggest chasing experience and money rather than just money. If you become exceptional at what you do, money tends to follow.

You are young enough to be able to do these things without major trauma to your personal life - so do it. You will probably enjoy it too.

Getting back to self employment, I would imagine that at your age working for various large firms might be more sensible for a few more years to build up as much experience as possible before going out on your own. The more diverse this employment the better. This is me guessing because I don't even know exactly how old you are.

However only you know your industry well enough to take any general advice and act on it.

Good luck.

[rob101]

But wait - ............Was that two cents? Two quid? Just my opinion... HTH and Good Luck!!
thats great advice, I know what you mean when you say "success is a property of the person not the environment" and I certainly won't being going to a job every 2 years. There are many reasons why i want to work for this company, firstly I am not sure if I want to be successful here. Meaning that I am not sure about wanting to be in this industry long term.

I didn't really start thinking about switching jobs until my friend told me about this other mob and how well they support their learning etc. So I don't want a job, I want that particular job or similar. I am not really running away from this job but rather running toward another at this point. Another reason is I want to have a look around and see what else is about in my field. I am very closed off from the rest of the industry (even within construction) and I don't think I can see what I want to see in this company.

I should however still keep my eyes on the ball, and rather than kind of slacking off and saying "i am quitting anyway what do I care" keep on doing my best. I just need to excite myself about this job again. I've had a number of attempts to fix various problems in the past out of frustration and pysched myself up to get some real changes happening because I was tired of the way things were and I wanted to see things fixed, but I have been bogged down mostly. I will use that approach that you suggested and perhaps that will fix it. I have time anyway its not as if I have an offer yet.

[mattyb]

have you appraoched BMW in germany yet?

[rob101]

have you appraoched BMW in germany yet?
Opel offered me a job, but i just couldn't be part of a company that tortures humanity like that. to think of all the people who would be subjected to owning an astra which is touted as "german quality" its not fair to the germans and their sauerkraut.

mmmmmmm sauerkraut.

[fukem5]

Lishten my fren, and do not talk ova me ok, when I was first shpotted by fangio he told me to stay we i waz shaying to im vat i was outgrowing the poxy compant i waz at sho I left ferrari and took his job offa at NASA, just short term mind u. It was when i waxing my nanas bikini line, wat a job 4 husky blades worth, that she shaid i should concentrate on my true love, bosnian space food shticks and assorted canapes for astronauts at the international space station, well look at me now!

[mattyb]

hmmmm, sound advice from the master himself

[mattyb]

ok then, who rubbed the magic lamp?

[Gayle]

Rob

My clues that I had stayed in my job too long were (1) I was breaking out in rashes (2) every time I got mad at my boss, I got mad at my husband (3) I dreaded work instead of looking forward to it and (4) I felt used and abused.

Then one day there was the straw that broke the camel's back. I left work crying three days in a row. I talked to HR about it and then I talked to the managing partner about it. His attitude was people don't change and maybe I need a change. I walked straight from his office to my boss's office and told him the equivalent of "you can take this job and shove it." I had a new job lined up within a week.

This week I saw someone who knew me in my old job and knows me in my new job. His comment was "I have seen you smile more in this one day than you did the whole time I knew you in the old job." That was one of many confirmations that I made the right choice. Other things that tell me it was the right decision was my successor had the exact same complaints that I did. And my old department has gone into a tailspin of decline. Good companies treat people well. Places that are not "people positive" are not "business positive" in the long run.

Starting a new job is stressful, but I am learning a lot and I feel really good about the way I am being treated and the opportunities ahead of me.

So my answer, based on my experience, if you are not happy, move on. You spend more than 50% of your waking hours at work, so you should try to find someplace you are happy. I would counsel you to do a little more advance planning in making a change than I did. Maybe if I had listened to my gut more, I would not have waited until I was pushed over the edge.

[ThoreauHD]

In my field, you are required to change jobs every 1-3 years. This is mainly due to the pace, and also due to the fact that companies don't care if you live or die.

My field is Information Systems, and when I start getting cold feet, or hating my work, I start applying everywhere, and interviewing at the places that I would love to work. Once I have offers, I then set up a meeting with my manager/director and come in heavy. I tell him/her that this is what I want, and can they match or best it. If they can't they lose. If they can, they may still lose but then I have 2 options on the table.

While this sounds crass to some, this is a fact of life in IT. I was looking for a job when I got here, and I'll be looking for a job when I leave. That's the mantra. Don't allow the company to dictate your future. If they do not train you or support certifications or if they do not give you pay equal to your market value, then leave. You can only lose if you stay. And the longer you stay, the more of your life and income that you will lose.

The longest job I've ever held was 5 years, and that was twice as long as I should have been there. Every 5 years or so, I try to double my income. And it's not possible for me to do that staying at the same business. They take you for granted when everything just magically works. Doesn't matter if you bleed out your eyes going above and beyond- you will still get the same pay if you stay there. That's just the nature of organizations. In any case, your gut feeling is correct. If you think you are wasting your life away, you are. It's that simple. Best of luck to you.

[Qube]

Stick it out past the point it won't look like you're hopping around jobs. That is, if you're nearing a year, stick it out for the year. Of course if you are intimidated by the job or otherwise in conflict with the staff, it's different.

[Gorio]

My theory is when I am bored or unhappy my performance goes down.
Lets face it you know when you are producing and when you are not.
If possible try and work things out with your boss, tell them you need a change. If they are a decent company they will try and make things work for you , it is in their best interest.
If that dosn't work out hit the road
once you are unhappy with a job it is really tough to bring the interest back.

Now doing metal art and playing with cars...

[rob101]

Rob

My clues that I had stayed in my job too long were (1) I was breaking out in rashes (2) every time I got mad at my boss, I got mad at my husband (3) I dreaded work instead of looking forward to it and (4) I felt used and abused.

Then one day there was the straw that broke the camel's back. I left work crying three days in a row. I talked to HR about it and then I talked to the managing partner about it. His attitude was people don't change and maybe I need a change. I walked straight from his office to my boss's office and told him the equivalent of "you can take this job and shove it." I had a new job lined up within a week.

This week I saw someone who knew me in my old job and knows me in my new job. His comment was "I have seen you smile more in this one day than you did the whole time I knew you in the old job." That was one of many confirmations that I made the right choice. Other things that tell me it was the right decision was my successor had the exact same complaints that I did. And my old department has gone into a tailspin of decline. Good companies treat people well. Places that are not "people positive" are not "business positive" in the long run.

Starting a new job is stressful, but I am learning a lot and I feel really good about the way I am being treated and the opportunities ahead of me.

So my answer, based on my experience, if you are not happy, move on. You spend more than 50% of your waking hours at work, so you should try to find someplace you are happy. I would counsel you to do a little more advance planning in making a change than I did. Maybe if I had listened to my gut more, I would not have waited until I was pushed over the edge.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm always thinking about my goals and my future and probably the only reason why i started looking was a total lack of structured development here.

Now I know in alot of jobs thats not a problem. But basically if you don't jump through the flaming hoops which involve an engineer mentor and many assignments I won't be an engineer so either I a: get an accreditation and become a real engineer (which means more money) or b: do nothing and get paid **** wages and feel quite like a falure (because i won't reach my goals). I've spoken to my boss before about this but he couldn't give a rats ass. Now I must point out that most decent organised engineering or construction companies such as our two sister companies all have accredited graduate programmes. Which leads me to think that my boss is living in a fantasy world if he thinks I am just going to take it, not to mention the fact that day to day my job doesn't really teach me much or really does my job need an engineer.

So anyway I am applying anywhere that looks good atm. I will still do my best here but in the next year I will be in a new job. After reconsidering and reading all your comments, it hasn't changed my mind I know I can't stay here and achieve my goals.

[rob101]

Had a good day on friday, finally got word that they can speed things up a bit so I can start mid year or sooner at the place i was originally aiming for and got a call from an employment agency i applied for saying she was passing my details onto a contractor based in the city (who i researched on and they have a proper grad development programme) and they were very interested given my experience.

So it looks like i'll be getting interviews in the next month:D

[mamilapon]

It's only time to leave when you find a better one to go to straight away mate.Makes interviews easier.