Interesting diesel behaviour

[Ferret]

Just discovered something interesting on my way home from work...

If you absoloutely hammer the car from a standing start, it winds all the way around to redline, but then wont change up.

At first I thought this might be a gearbox failure... but then it kinda hit me. The car only does this when it's tank is less than a quarter full, and while it's doing it, the engine speed oscilates like it's losing power.

What I *think* is happening is that the fuel line is cavitating because the upper pump is pulling so hard - and causing engine power to machine gun drop out. The result is that the gearbox hasnt a clue what to do and just stays in gear...

I'd like some of the other diesel guys thoughts on this, I'm gonna scoot off to the gas station now and fill it to the top - see if it stops doing it.

The one thing that is /highly/ amusing is the amount of diesel smoke it spews when this happens, you cant see the car behind you any more :)

[winfred]

loads of black smoke in a diesel is unburnt fuel due to too much fuel or not enough air to burn it, i have no idea how the e34 diesels are set up injection pump wise so i can't really offer advice

[whiskychaser]

[QUOTE=Ferret]If you absoloutely hammer the car from a standing start, it winds all the way around to redline, but then wont change up.

At first I thought this might be a gearbox failure... but then it kinda hit me. The car only does this when it's tank is less than a quarter full, and while it's doing it, the engine speed oscilates like it's losing power.

Most diesels will kick out SOME smoke under load. Watch trucks downshift on a hill and you will see what I mean. But if you cant see the car behind you, you have something serious going on. Auto boxes have all sorts of sensors that decide if you have enough torque for the next gear etc. Kicking that amount of **** out you probably dont. Unless you are into diesels you could do worse than asking some outfit that knows (like Feather) for an opinion

[skr]

does it pull good? excesive smoke under full load is strange for your car coz it has an AFM. so if the turbo is not pumping enough air, your car won't pull that strong but should'n put out too much smoke. unless you hand-tuned your IP for overfuel. i don't think smoke and fuel lines have much to do with each other , because the smoke means it's getting more fuel than it can burn. maybe your wastegate lets go too early? or you got a boost leak ?

[Ferret]

does it pull good? excesive smoke under full load is strange for your car coz it has an AFM. so if the turbo is not pumping enough air, your car won't pull that strong but should'n put out too much smoke. unless you hand-tuned your IP for overfuel. i don't think smoke and fuel lines have much to do with each other , because the smoke means it's getting more fuel than it can burn. maybe your wastegate lets go too early? or you got a boost leak ?

Yeah it pulls damn good still - I've owned a few diesels before this one, they're quite common in the UK as the fuel prices here are rediculous, so people really count MPG here, diesels are <3 for fuel economy. (Hence why black smoke out the exhaust on random occasions doesnt worry me too much, it makes me laugh when someone really stands on the gas pedal and disappears a car following it.)

I've since filled the tank and this crazy behaviour immediately stopped...

I've a sneaking suspicion that the smoke has something to do with the engine oscillation, and the turbo spooling down. When in the past I've run the engine without the airbox, if you tan the engine then take your foot off you get a whopping *pshhht* noise like there's a dump valve somewhere...

EDIT (To add relevance): This would cause the turbo to spool down /very/ quickly under a minor power loss, and would infact cause the turbo to run at very low boost constantly if the engine was oscillating...
End Edit

I'm wondering if the smoke's to do with the sudden loss of power (and hence exhaust pressure,) causing the turbo to spin down slightly, followed by sudden power restore and full fuelling because the input air flow never changed...

Tbh, I'm not overly concerned, because it only does it when the tank's less than a quarter full.

I know I'm having the fuel pump problem because it almost point blank refuses to start under a quarter tank - you can sit there cranking for a good 30-45 seconds before it catches. Does anyone have a link to a site about repairing this problem/thread about it?

Where the heck is the AFM though? I've not spotted it, unless its lurking down by the intercooler...

I'm going to have a go at tweaking the wastegate slightly some time later this month, to notch the boost pressure up .2 to .3 bar - done it on all the diesels I've owned and it makes a noticable pulling difference for little change in the MPG/engine temperature.

[Ferret]

loads of black smoke in a diesel is unburnt fuel due to too much fuel or not enough air to burn it, i have no idea how the e34 diesels are set up injection pump wise so i can't really offer advice

Yeah I think the ECU is getting 'confused' due to turbo RPM and therefore boost pressure changes, due to the power oscillation problem - filling the tank has totally cleared this problem straight away...

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

Must be a uk problem! The only difference between our cars now is gearbox.I posted something like this some time ago and drew a blank.If I tighten the filter normally(fuel) it smokes on full chat and stutters below half tank with air in the line filter to pump.If I gorilla the filter it is a bitch to start cold but runs ok and to the last drop.I have a spare filter head which i will get round to soon.Somebody online suggested the in-tank pump is on the way out.Dont know about you but whatever fixes it is worth paying a stealer for but cannot be electronics as I have swapped all, no difference,turbo, no diff,fuel feed pipe to filter, no diff,Whoever finds it first buys the other a beer!

[winfred]

imho computers have no place on a diesel, i like my truck it's one of the last mechanical diesels dodge made

http://members.cox.net/kitlou/r%20motor.JPG
http://members.cox.net/kitlou/l%20motor.JPG
http://members.cox.net/wdixon27/bhaf.JPG
here it is with just shy of the weight of a e34 on the back 3100 pounds of cement and slate, the amusing thing is a toyota truck thought he was going to beat me up the ramp to the interstate, he was wrong
http://members.cox.net/kitlou/3100lb.JPG
the bastard is only just getting on the helper springs so it had plenty of ass left

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

that looks like a VM italian diesel with separate heads? Or is it a cummins big inch designed by a scot.The only diesels worth it are painted yellow,my `work truck `has two 3412TA`S and would tow that old box up Niagara!

[duby55]

I have a similar problem with a Chevy pickup. Above 1/4 tank its great, below that and it will die out. I was told I have a cracked pickup hose on the base of the in tank fuel pump. You may want to look that up for a possibility.

[winfred]

5.9 12 valve cummins, those are separate valve covers for each cylinder but the head is solid, she's got 321k miles and doesn't think about burning oil even the way i flog it, it's turned up about as much as the stock clutch will hold somewhere around 300hp and maybe 550-600 foot pounds of torque from the stock 215/440, once i get the blower on the e30 and dialed in ill focus on adding about another 100 hp and 200 lb to da truck, south bend clutch, #10 plate, hybrid turbo of some kind and better injectors, the marine injectors i am running now don't have the correct spray angle for the truck pistons and while they make plenty of power they are a little smoky and less efficient then some ddp stage II's or stage III's (if i really wanted to go nuts get the stage V's and twin turbos for a easy 6-700 hp/1100-1300 ftlb, probably $6k plus whatever getting my head cut for o-rings cost, and about $1700 for a dual disc clutch to hold it)


that looks like a VM italian diesel with separate heads? Or is it a cummins big inch designed by a scot.The only diesels worth it are painted yellow,my `work truck `has two 3412TA`S and would tow that old box up Niagara!

[Ferret]

imho computers have no place on a diesel

Damn right!

[Ferret]

Must be a uk problem! The only difference between our cars now is gearbox.I posted something like this some time ago and drew a blank.If I tighten the filter normally(fuel) it smokes on full chat and stutters below half tank with air in the line filter to pump.If I gorilla the filter it is a bitch to start cold but runs ok and to the last drop.I have a spare filter head which i will get round to soon.Somebody online suggested the in-tank pump is on the way out.Dont know about you but whatever fixes it is worth paying a stealer for but cannot be electronics as I have swapped all, no difference,turbo, no diff,fuel feed pipe to filter, no diff,Whoever finds it first buys the other a beer!

If I remember correctly there's two possible faults that can occur with these diesels...

I've yet to check either with mine, as it's been raining constantly over the last couple of days.

1) There's an O-ring on the fuel pick up that fails, according to a bimmer workship bloke - I was in there picking a part up two days ago and asked to speak to a mechanic.
From what he was saying, and he didnt have a 100% understanding of the problem, there's a rubber o-ring on the top half of the fuel pick up unit. This disintegrates and allows air to slip into the low pressure fuel line. This is only a problem when combined with the second common fault:

2) Electric fuel pump failure:
There's a relay in the DME box between two others -
http://www.bimmernut.com/%7Ebillr/images/dieselpreheaterrelay.jpg

and this shows you how to short it such that the fuel pump should run:
http://www.bimmernut.com/%7Ebillr/images/dieselfuel.jpg

Try the step in the bottom left corner, but first pull off the fuel hose between the filter and injection pump, and put the hose in a coke bottle or something so you can see if diesel flows and catch it lol.

If shorting causes it to start up happily, you're gonna have to get busy with a multimeter.. I shall have a go at this later this evening and report back.

[Ferret]

So I've pulled everything apart now, gone into the DME box to check the relay etc etc, to find some very interesting things...

Took the relay out and started probing the ports on the socket:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/Ferret101/IMG_8182.jpg

and discovered there was no voltage to either of the pins that should be shorting when the relay's on...

The relays opening and closing quite happily, I've checked that as you can hear it clicking as you push it in and out of the socket.

Next port of call was the fuse: (23, removed in this photo)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/Ferret101/IMG_8183.jpg

When I pulled the fuse, I noticed that the terminals were tarnished, but the fuse was intact... Suspicious.

Walloped on the ignition and checked for voltage, only to find none present at the fuse. Checking resistances showed that there was a short in the loom - /after/ the fuse of 0.4ohms to ground, which would give approx 30 amps current. The pin that was supposed to go off to the fuel pump is showing open circuit.

I suspect that the feed has been burned out by someome shorting the fuse after its blown a few times.

This means I'm gonna have to put a new loom addition in, after purchasing a new pump and fitting it to the tank... The next thing I need to know is whether the relay stays on all the time the ignitions on so I can vampire an easy feed from under the rear seats.

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

Did as you said,pump not live when engine running but seems to click in and out with some sort of fuel pressure sensor that i cannot find.Replaced filter head and made no difference so idea of bad seal on pump housing sounds like the next way to go,cannot be pump failure as have just replaced filter and fuel pumps up to bleed system but only if tank full.

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

friend is just about to ake delivery of new Chev 2500 with chev diesel and allison tranny,has about the same torque figure. Yanks cant make cars but i do agree they sure can make diesels and pickups!Cat just turned up to do warantee first oil change,Air filter cost more than 15qts oil and filters!Anybody ever put a cat 3208t in a 7 series, now that would be a sight!

[Ferret]

Did as you said,pump not live when engine running but seems to click in and out with some sort of fuel pressure sensor that i cannot find.Replaced filter head and made no difference so idea of bad seal on pump housing sounds like the next way to go,cannot be pump failure as have just replaced filter and fuel pumps up to bleed system but only if tank full.

Hmmm, okay I'm going to pull the whole assy apart next month - I'll run a new line back from the fuel pump relay to under the rear seats, and build a new relay and loom straight from the battery to the pump. While I'm at it I'll pull the whole assy out of the tank, change the pump and get photos of the suspect parts...

If yours is priming when the tanks full, but not when it's empty, you could be suffering from either a busted seal, weak pump, or more likely both!

The pumps arent that bad: Euro Car parts are shifting them at about £95 a shot.

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

Euro C P dont have seal so off to stealer,Scotall, give me trade so not that bad,oldest car from them still on register! Pump on order, thanks, probably needed it anyway.