Am I being scammed?

[shurton]

I posted this on another forum, and I thought I'd check here for opinions as well.
I took my 540 to an indy shop where i've gotten great service in the past, and who has a great reputation overall. I had the upper/lower control arms replaced as well as all new front brakes.
So they call me up the next day and say they have bad news.
They said that after an oil change there can be an air bubble in the system causing a brief point where the oil pressure is low, and something about a lack of oil pressure for the chain tensioner causing the camshaft to be off by a few degrees causing the piston in cylinder 7 to hit the valve. They said this is rare, but can happen on an older car. They said they will have to do a full valve service, I assumed a head rebuild. They said they would only charge me for the parts ($1800cdn) and would not charge me anything for the 3 days of labor involved.
They called me a couple of days later and said a chip from the piston got in the cylinder and scoured it, so now they are replacing the whole engine. They got me a '95 Alusil M60 with only 110,000 km on it. There was no discussion about charging me anything for the engine.
The funny thing is we never even discussed an oil change to begin with. The only work I authorized didn't even require opening the hood.

Has anyone heard of anything like this happening before? Is this even remotely possible? Evertyhing I've heard so far is that their story is BS.
I was gonna call BS on their story and try and get out of paying for the head rebuild, but now I'm not sure thats gonna fly with a full engine swap.
I'm already in for $2k on the control arms and brakes, without even getting into the engine stuff.
Any opinions would be greatly appreciated....

[Tiger]

On the V8, there is a common problem of oil pump bolt going loose and the oil pressure drops... but no one here ever had engine damage even with their low oil pressure.

The fact that you did not authorize oil change is already the shop owner's liability. Their business insurance liability will cover this damage with no cost to you. I am not sure how it works in Canada but if like US... all business need to be insured.

[repenttokyo]

sounds really shifty to me, man.

[Dave M]

What the???????? You took the car in for control arms and brakes, which cost what I consider to be an absurd $2000 and now they're replacing the engine. Does the owner have an expensive habit to feed? Not sure where to start.

Regardless of the plausibility of the scenario the describe, where do they get off going ahead with these minor repairs. Why would you need an excuse to get out of paying for repairs you didn't authorize (M60 transplant????). Maybe they mixed up your car with someone else's ;)

Please tell me this is a joke. Even the $2000 for front end work has me confused. Is that possible? I've never paid a shop for this stuff, wow. Playing by their rules, you'll have virtually bought another e34 by the time you're done paying these artists. I'll be watching to see what happens.

Dave

[Zeuk in Oz]

I agree with Dave.

If they were not asked to change the oil, they owe you a NEW engine, IMHO.

Is there consumer legislation where you are ? Contact them and see what can be done.

Unbelievable !

ps : Don't pay them a cent !

[shurton]

What the???????? You took the car in for control arms and brakes, which cost what I consider to be an absurd $2000 and now they're replacing the engine. Does the owner have an expensive habit to feed? Not sure where to start.

Regardless of the plausibility of the scenario the describe, where do they get off going ahead with these minor repairs. Why would you need an excuse to get out of paying for repairs you didn't authorize (M60 transplant????). Maybe they mixed up your car with someone else's ;)

Please tell me this is a joke. Even the $2000 for front end work has me confused. Is that possible? I've never paid a shop for this stuff, wow. Playing by their rules, you'll have virtually bought another e34 by the time you're done paying these artists. I'll be watching to see what happens.

Dave

The brake job was rotors, pads and calipers, so I think parts alone was around $1k. I had them install upper and lower control arms, but I supplied the parts, so I think that's probably $1800 Canadian total. I wasn't buying the oil change bs story initially, but I wasn't sure. Not sure what they were doing changing the e oil anyway. Maybe some yahoo took it for a drive after the brake and suspension work and fried my engine. I don't know how that could've happened either... Any theories?
They've had my car 2 1/2 weeks, and I get it back this week, so we'll see what they are gonna try to charge me. Of course I dont want to pay for anything beyond the work I asked for. They are taking some responsibility because when they were talking head rebuild, they were gonna charge me parts only. Then when they figured I needed a new engine they sourced it and brought it in before speaking to me, so they are not expecting me to pay for that. From the response i'm getting from people, it sounds like I shouldn't be paying anything for the engine work. Actually I'm kind of shocked that they tried to feed me that bs story about the oil change, this is a very respected BMW/Mercedes shop thats been in business for 30 years, and it takes 2 weeks just to get your car in there.
Thanks for the reply, I'll let you know how it goes later this week.

[Dave M]

Very strange situation. The most intriguing part is the fact they would offer to do the head work for free (parts are a relatively minor component to a head re-furbish). This inticates an admission of fault to me. If this is the case, why they wouldn't simply admit guilt is beyond me. Anyhow, a few things remain clear.

They FUBAR'ed your engine

They need to make good

You shouldn't pay a penny more than your overpriced brake and front end job cost (sorry, I can't imagine shelling out that much). NO parts, NO labour, Not your fault.

Oh, out of interest, why new calipers? Likely the reason your bill is aleady so high. Best of luck with it, welcome to the board,

Dave

[Dave M]

I just re-read their explanation of the problem and I've certainly never heard that one. I will not claim to know scads about engines, especially the M60. There are mant others here with boatloads more experience, but I know enough to have some serious reservations.

First, there is always a brief moment when oil pressure is low, namely every single time you start the vehicle. It takes a few seconds to circulate oil throughout the engine.

Second, what "system" are they speaking of? Behind the timing case cover(s), the timing chains are not subject to lack of oil due to freaking bubbles are they?? Its a pretty simple system of self lubrication.

Third, the very robust, self lubricating, bubble-free chains :D are connected to timing sprockets in such a way that a lack of lubrication to the chain will not affect timing. A lack of lubrication to the head(s) could definately cause damage, but this is not part of their story.

I you're relaying their story acurately, I have a very hard time beleiving it. And whats up with "this is rare, but can happen on an older car". Its frusrating me as it makes no sense. Someone renew my faith and explain to me how this can be.

Sorry about the rant, I despise con-artists.

Dave

[repenttokyo]

For the original poster, you should demand from the garage the price of a brand new engine, and the price to have engine installed, and then take that money and go to a new garage.

[Podmore]

Boyoboy, what a story! Never heard of timing chain tensioners held in place with oil pressure - as pointed out in another reply, on start-up there is virtually no oil pressure for a couple of engine revolutions, seems that not only 'older' engines would go out to lunch if that was the case. I'm not familiar with the internals of the M60 but in most engines the tensioner is a spring-loaded jobbie that keeps constant pressure on the chain, irrespective of oil pressure.
My guess is their apprentice took your car for a burn and blew it up ......
Ask to see your original engine.
Don't pay a penny for anything to do with the engine.
And I'd have to ask also, why new calipers? Phew!!!

[pingu]

I think timing chain tensioners might sometimes be held in place with oil pressure, in a way analogous to hydraulic tappets.

But I reckon that the main purpose of such tensioners is to avoid excess play/slap in the chain when the engine is revving. As other people have pointed out, every time an engine is started is has initially zero oil pressure. Thus I reckon the garage is spouting **** when they say that a "bubble" put the camshaft out a few degrees.

It does seem suspicious that they would be offering to do three days work for free. And why in any case why they doing an oil change?

I reckon you ought to speak to the manager - perhaps as Podmor suggested, their apprentice screwed things up and is trying to hide this from the manager?

[Ross]

Wow! Sorry to hear about this. You should be speaking to an attorney, not us.
Can anyone here envision a "spirited" test drive?
BTW 2k for control arms and brakes is robbery as well.

[RallyD]

this is why I NEVER drive a customer's car.

[Evan]

you should call the local news... they're raping you.

jokes aside... it sounds like either a lotboy or mechanic took your car for a spin and they redlined your motor to hell... or they have a crooked, savvy service manager who got the feeling he could take you for a few extra dollars.

Join the BMW Car Club of America, if you're not already a member. You can write to the Car Club, the editors of Roundel mag, or work with one of your fellow expert members to get to the bottom of this.

[nixter]

You in Vancouver by any chance? PM me with the shop name if you like.

[shurton]

Well, I got the car back yesterday and I'm pretty happy with the outcome.
They swapped my engine for one with 110k km or 70k miles. There was also a misunderstanding about the work, because they were doing a full tune up on my car as well as the suspension and brakes, that's why the oil change.
I discussed what happened with him and he said it was what he originally said with a momentary lack of oil pressure and the chain tensioner. He denies doing anything wrong, and says it rare for it to happen but he has seen it happen three or four times in the last 20 years.
The only reason he was throwing the labor in free was that he felt responsible because it was in his care.
Long story short, they wanted me to cover the cost of the engine plus tax which was 3600cdn. Even though I started to believe his story I held my ground and said my engine was perfect when I brought it in and that's the way I want it back. After a long discussion I agreed to kick in $1000cdn towards the engine, plus $2500 for the other work I originally had done.
All in all i'm pretty happy with the outcome. If I had to pay for the engine and the labor I would of been in for $6k so $1k is sweet!!!

[ThoreauHD]

So.. you went in for suspension(that you bought already) work, brakes, and a tune-up. And you paid $3500. Alrighty then.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/toasty0z/owned.jpg

[shurton]

So.. you went in for suspension(that you bought already) work, brakes, and a tune-up. And you paid $3500. Alrighty then.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/toasty0z/owned.jpg


pretty much.....
the brake parts alone were $1200 (needed new calipers, rotors, and pads) + $100/hr for labor
dont forget the new engine! lol

[Evan]

I think it all sounds great.... your car is good for a few years now!

[632 Regal]

could have been worse but that is a LOT of money not counting the engine situation.


pretty much.....
the brake parts alone were $1200 (needed new calipers, rotors, and pads) + $100/hr for labor
dont forget the new engine! lol

[JoshsE34-M50]

Wow, after seeing this, I think I'll do my own front end work after all.
Good luck with everything.

[TC535i]

pretty much.....
the brake parts alone were $1200 (needed new calipers, rotors, and pads) + $100/hr for labor
dont forget the new engine! lol
Needed new calipers, huh?

No offense... but you SURE they're not ****ing you??

[Zeuk in Oz]

Needed new calipers, huh?

No offense... but you SURE they're not ****ing you??
Roll over, spread wide and think of England.

Even I can do brake work on these cars. :D

[632 Regal]

yep one of the easiest things to do plus rotors around 20-25 each...no brainer.

Roll over, spread wide and think of England.

Even I can do brake work on these cars. :D

[Ross]

You asked our advice, the consensus was the answer to your question was yes, and you coughed up $3500 for a brake and front end job anyway.
Did he kiss you first?
At least post the name of the shop so someone else will know better.

[BigKriss]

I have to agree with the other members here.

Am I being scammed?

Yes

[M20Turbo]

Did you ever get to see your old engine? Just curious! My wife would killed me if I came home with a $3500 bill for few hour job. While this shop had your car inoperable did they supply you with a rental car? Yup my wife would not been happy with me. I could just hear it now "and your a guy, could you imagine what that shop would charged me?" Glad your happy with the outcome, thats what counts.....

[filip00]

this is funny, they're trying to screw you.