Can someone tell me what's wrong with my car?

[Calico_NC]

I just got my car out the shop today, and had an oil leak fixed along with a full set of brakes. They also replaced my timing chain and camshaft(which they replaced since they broke it) Also some head gaskets i believe. Anyway, upon getting my car back today, it seems like the acceleration at high RPM's is very weak. At about 3000rpm, i was going only about 60mph. And it didnt get better the faster i went so i stayed under 60mph. I know thats incorrect. I heard some strange noise from inside the hood while i was driving. It only became audible when i press the gas down. Also, before the repair, i could press the acceleration down and it would kickdown. Now, it does it very, very, slowly, or it doesn't do it at all. Now it just strains and goes up to higher rpm's. I checked to see if the kickdown plug under the pedal was connected and it was. The Trans Program warning did not come on, so i know it wasn't that. What could it be?

Could a plug or something be disconnected in the engine making it not respond when traveling at higher rpms?

P.S. I will take it back, but there not open on Sun. :(

[repenttokyo]

vacuum leak?

[Calico_NC]

would that cause the problem? My idle is real smooth though. It also feels like it Stutters when taking off or going in to second gear. Not as in hesitation though.

[Dr. evil]

they broke your camshaft??? .....thats weird

which gaskets did they replace??

does your car have VANOS??

[Bin_jammin]

Can you post an invoice of the work performed? I've broken exactly one camshaft in my life, and it was when I had just started working on cars (I was very green at the time) It was on an integra, I was doing a head swap, and I didn't unbolt the cam caps in the proper order. This let the cam bind in the head and it just popped when I got to the last cap. Lucky me the head I was swapping into the car had a set of cams in it. I'd like to know why they were doing all that work in the first place that would even lead to something like that happening.

If I had to guess, I'd say they dicked up your cam timing, it sounds like you're a couple degrees off on at least one cam.

I used to work at a shop owned by a guy fresh out of school. I mean really green, like his father had money, he was a screw up, his father paid for him to go to tech school and bought him a gas station. When I first started working there he had a 318ti that ran like garbage, just like your car. He had diagnosed an oil leak, and from what I recall had sold the owner a timing chain at the same time. Well, his idiot brother had been bored while running the gas station the next morning after he had taken the timing chain off, so he hopped in the car and turned on the radio so he'd have something to listen to, but the genius had never disconnected the battery and he ended up bumping the starter. Not far enough to bend valves, but his brother could never figure out how to line the cams up.

The genius had tried setting the cam timing 4 or 5 more times since that happened, he was pulling his hair out because he couldn't figure it out, and none of his books listed how to set cam timing. The car had been there for over two weeks. I know the owner was none too thrilled. I told him "look, you don't know what you're doing, I don't care how much it sucks, call the dealer"

He finally listened to me, they charged him an hour or two to set the cam timing, and I learned how to do it later, but I think the moral of the story is that whoever worked on your car sounds like a hack at worst, or they weren't paying attention at best.

[Calico_NC]

yeah i can post an invoice in a couple of hours. Im starting to think that it might be a cam timing problem because it seems to idle real smooth. Maybe he didn't test the car out after replacing everything. And if he did, the shop was located in the busy city, maybe he didn't have enough roadway to get into the higher gears. IDK

[Dr. evil]

sounds to me that something is wrong with your VANOS

[Calico_NC]

What is a Vanos?

[BMWCCA1]

Sounds to me that any shop who broke your original camshaft (how did that occur? Illuminate us!) shouldn't be trusted with replacing it, especially on a VANOS (variable valve timing) engine. Sounds like a bunch of hacks to me. What are their BMW credentials?

[Calico_NC]

here is the invoice, kinda hard to see though:

http://calico05.googlepages.com/lastscan11.jpg
How do I know if i have a VANOS or not. I never heard of it.

[DaveVoorhis]

All 2.5 litre M50 engines (which you have) as of the '93 model year have VANOS, which is a system for dynamically varying the valve timing to improve mid-range torque.

[Calico_NC]

Update on performance: Acceleration is slower than usual from starting position. I floored it on the interstate, and it did slightly better, but i noticed that it took more RPM to be more responsive. I basically had to floor it to get the same response as i would normally get.

So if it is the VANOS, how come it didn't act this way until i got it fixed? Would they have to remove the VANOS unit by doing the repairs mentioned in the invoice? If so, would they charge me for something they did wrong?

[DaveVoorhis]

So if it is the VANOS, how come it didn't act this way until i got it fixed?
It might be that the shop bodged the VANOS system in some fashion, and it might be simple -- like maybe the lead to the VANOS actuating solenoid is disconnected -- but since this is the same crew that snapped a camshaft, almost anything is possible. The timing might be out by a tooth, for example.


Would they have to remove the VANOS unit by doing the repairs mentioned in the invoice?
Yes.

[whiskychaser]

Update on performance: Acceleration is slower than usual from starting position. I floored it on the interstate, and it did slightly better, but i noticed that it took more RPM to be more responsive. I basically had to floor it to get the same response as i would normally get.

So if it is the VANOS, how come it didn't act this way until i got it fixed? Would they have to remove the VANOS unit by doing the repairs mentioned in the invoice? If so, would they charge me for something they did wrong?
Dont know about anybody else but I couldnt read that invoice. So I dont know what oil leak they were supposed to be fixing or why they were taking out cams to do so. As Dave said, vanos basically varies your valve timing so you get better performance. If its stuck or somebody didnt connect it right, your car will still run but not that good.

[granit_silber]

If you're worried or uncomfortable about taking your car back to the first shop, I'll recommend another really good shop in G'Boro. Mann Motorsports, (http://www.tmannmotorsports.com/) they're over near the airport and they're great. I drive from Winston-Salem to patronize them.

-ashley

[Zeuk in Oz]

I can't read the invoice either.

I would suggest you get your car to a repairer that knows something about BMWs and see what they think.

It seems like the mob you were dealing with have no idea and as such should not be entrusted any further. Chances are they will be just as likely to do more damage than fix anything.

BTW, you mentioned that they did work on your brakes, with a little research on this site and Bruno's site ( www.bmwe34.net ) , brake work is really easy to do yourself, and then you know its done right.

[DaveVoorhis]

I can't read the invoice either.
I can read it. The browser might shrink it to fit the window, though. It's meant to be 1230x1543 pixels.

[Bin_jammin]

I can read it, you just have to click on it to zoom in. If your browser doesn't allow this, download the image and open it. Basically it says he brought it in for an oil leak and brakes, and they diagnosed it as the front timing cover. Now, I don't know the m50 series engines, but I don't know very many engines that require removing the cams to change timing cover gaskets.

I CERTAINLY can't think of ANY reason for them to break your cam, except for them being complete and total hacks. If it were me, I'd go to your local dealership and make friends with a tech, and use him as a witness when you go to court. Seems to me they're performing work that wasn't authorized or necessary. I see they have head gasket set on the list of parts, that's something that wouldn't need to be changed for a timing cover gasket job, and if they didn't tell you they were changing it, well... that's for you to find out the reasoning.

[Calico_NC]

thanks everyone for the advice! But if this were your car, would you say it's the VANOS unit or a cam timing issue? I just need to know what to say when i call him back tomorrow. It's kinda hard to explain stuff when your mechanically challenged.

Grant: Thanks for an alternate shop, i didn't even know that one was there.

[Dr. evil]

i would tell him that the car has not run well since you took it from his shop.

personaly i would like to know how you could ruin a cam that much that you have to repace the unit. the work order said that they replaced the set of cams (intake & exhaust)damm, the new set must have been expensive

[Calico_NC]

i would tell him that the car has not run well since you took it from his shop.

personaly i would like to know how you could ruin a cam that much that you have to repace the unit. the work order said that they replaced the set of cams (intake & exhaust)damm, the new set must have been expensive

I dont know. Probably so, but he said since that they were responsible for the broken cam and the head gaskets, we didn't have to pay for it. (Thats why it has $0.00 on the invoice.) After everything was done, it came up to about $2,400 which was about $1,500 in labor i think.

[Calico_NC]

***UPDATE****
After i took my car back in, they said the car had 2 codes in the transmission, and they cleared them. They then said they checked the fluid, and it was low 1 quart, so they filled it up. I don't think they even worked on the car, they just said they think the transmission may be going bad internally. In the end, it still drives like a slug. Horrible acceleration, and still a very audible sound when around the 2000rpm range. Goes up to about 4500rpm before it shifts into the last gear. He said it was coming from the transmission, but i don't know. Does this sound like a correct diagnosis? I mean this wasn't happening before i took it there, I had a few trans program messages here and there, but it wasn't driving this weird. Could it be the new camshaft they put in that's making the car run bad? Here's a copy of the invoice.


http://i18.tinypic.com/538z0qv.jpg

[bsell]

I smell a big BS story on the part of the repair shop. I really don't think it is coincidence that the tranny **** the bed after they 'break a cam' doing an oil leak repair. I hate to think what happened to your car while in their shop.

I would press the case to have the car taken to a dealer for sorting out at the original shop's expense. It is plainly obvious they are clueless about your car and are just making things worse everytime they touch it.

Brian

[Ferret]

I smell a big BS story on the part of the repair shop. I really don't think it is coincidence that the tranny **** the bed after they 'break a cam' doing an oil leak repair. I hate to think what happened to your car while in their shop.

I would press the case to have the car taken to a dealer for sorting out at the original shop's expense. It is plainly obvious they are clueless about your car and are just making things worse everytime they touch it.

Brian

They must have left something in the rocker case when they tried to fire up the engine the first time...

Arent the cams on the M50 soft alloy with a hardened exterior, easy to crack, hence why you have to use a special tool to reinstall them into the head?

If I were you before you take it anywhere again : pull the rocker cover and check see whether your timing is out significantly.

[Ferret]

Now, I don't know the m50 series engines, but I don't know very many engines that require removing the cams to change timing cover gaskets.


From what I remember from pulling my M50 apart, the front of the head sits on top of the timing case, using the head gasket as part of the seal. If you pull the top timing cover I think you've gotta change the HG.

[DaveVoorhis]

I would suggest getting recommendations for a good, reputable, local independent shop with BMW experience, and take your car there for a second opinion. I think there's a possibility that "Foreign Accents" is just mucking about without a clue.

[whiskychaser]

From what I remember from pulling my M50 apart, the front of the head sits on top of the timing case, using the head gasket as part of the seal. If you pull the top timing cover I think you've gotta change the HG.
The bottom timing cover is sandwiched between the head and the oil pan. They charged for an oil pan gasket which makes me think they first tried to get the timing cover off from the bottom. Fair enough. Maybe they couldnt get it off -if you dont drive out those pins through the cover or undo the 3 bolts from above it will never come off. Maybe they thought the whole head has to come off so removed it -and dropped it-or dropped something on it. Hence broken cams but also a charge for a thermostat housing. At this point they've had enough and chuck it back together. Maybe they bent a valve putting the head back on? I dont think the gearbox problems are related but I'd strongly recommend you get an independant like AAA or somebody to take a close look. Apologies for the length of the post :)

[Calico_NC]

**UPDATE**

It's been about a week or so short of a month since I took my car to the shop. Im still having the same problem. Horrible acceleration and delayed shifting. My car is actually in the shop now after i took it there numerous times to figure out what was wrong with it. They said they placed it on the "machine" to figure out whats wrong and they don't see anything. They stress the fact that they think the transmission is going on out on the car. (Bear in mind that it was driving fine before). Upon me last driving the car, i noticed that my tachometer did not increase constantly. Even when continually pressing the acceleration to the floor, the tachometer paused and stopped at will. You cant feel it stop and go while driving, but it's like the car isn't gaining any speed.What could cause this to happen? I asked someone at the shop and they said the tach is linked to the pedal, so it wouldn't justify that the camshaft was misaligned or anything, but i don't really know. Also, the car shifts fine in lower gears (despite the slow acceleration) but it wont switch into the last gear unless im going about 80mph!! This kills my gas mileage. They now are taking it to the dealer to put it on their "machine", but i don't know what the he** is goin' on.

Any clue?

what could cause:
* poor acceleration
* delayed shifting
* stop n' start tachometer (inconsistent)

[Ross]

You have a hard decision to make here. It sounds like your shop hasn't a clue and is getting their education at you and your car's expense.
If you were specific about what the problem was for them to correct and they have not done so you are entitled to either your money back or for them to cover the cost of someone qualified to repair it properly. You are not obligated to let them continue to **** around.
Take the car to someone who is qualified. pay that guys tab then you will likely need to sue to recover the cost from the first guy.
Bear in mind if you originally went to the guy and said "replace X" having made your own diagnosis and they did so, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

[M20Turbo]

Calico_NC,

You should stop by and talk to Ray Korman, http://www.kormanfastbmw.com/
Very knowledgeable! Good luck!

(336) 275-1494
Korman Autoworks, Inc.
2629 Randleman Rd.
Greensboro, NC 27406
USA

[ILoveMPower]

Ahh! Get your car the hell away from that shop!!!

[Calico_NC]

Calico_NC,

You should stop by and talk to Ray Korman, http://www.kormanfastbmw.com/
Very knowledgeable! Good luck!

(336) 275-1494
Korman Autoworks, Inc.
2629 Randleman Rd.
Greensboro, NC 27406
USA

Thanks, im going to give him a call.

[ArtemLepilov]

FROM EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING YOU HAVE A MISFIRE PROBLEM.

Check to make sure that the car is running on all cylinders - see if all the coils produce a spark. To do that you simply can take a coil off one by unplugging it from the harness. Do this to all the coils at idle. If you will see a noticeable difference in the way the engine is running - stumbling more, etc - you will rule out that the cylinder is firing or not.

Once you prove that it is in fact, a misfiring problem, find out what can be bad in it - injector, spark plug, harness (hardly ever the case, unless the shop cut something in the harness, or the DME (a likely case if the shop missed a few connections))

Good luck, Artem

[Calico_NC]

It states that at BMW, they heard a noise from the VANOS unit, could that be the only thing causing my problem; a bad Vanos Unit? . I think the transmission is fine. It never slips or anything. Before i took it to the shop, it would go into limp mode often while merging onto the freeway or when i hit high speeds. It never went into limp mode when i was going slow. It seems like it has trouble switching to the last gear, but i dont think that justifies my transmission is going bad. Here is the invoice from Crown BMW:

http://i9.tinypic.com/4ldifkn.jpg

[Calico_NC]

Here is the invoice from Foreign Accents:
http://i11.tinypic.com/678v6s3.jpg

[Atl530i]

It really sounds like they do not have a clue to what is wrong with your car. I know where I am not going if I am ever in Greensboro, NC.

[stargazer_61]

Calico_NC,

After reading all of these posts, it is really sounding like Foreign Accents hosed up your VANOS when they replaced your cams, as CROWN states. Think about it. VANOS is variable-valve-timing for bumping up your mid-range torque, as mentioned above, which is what it sounds like your problem is, you don't have any. Your trans may be starved for torque, thus causing it not to upshift. So, when FA did the cams, they didn't get the VANOS set up right or they broke it as well.

Ask the guys at Crown if the damage that FA did to your cams or the subsequent repair could have also affected the VANOS unit. Talk with the guys at Kormann's, T Mann or Motorsport Connections for more opinions. They are all in the Triad. The guys at Import Auto in Mt. Airy are also good. Ask for Bruce if you call up there. If you can get a consensus that FA messed that up as well, perhaps you can get them to install a new VANOS unit gratis as well.

On the plus side of your dilemma, it does sound like you did not have to put up a fight with FA when they broke your M50. They may not be the best, but they acted in a professional manner and put the customer first by taking responsibility for what they did. Overall, they have a pretty good rep so I've heard, for general work. They are not a Kormann's or a Motorsport Connections. I've seen some nice rides getting done in there when I've stopped by to pick up stuff.

Good luck getting it back right!

John

[Calico_NC]

thanks Stargazer for your input. I really think it's the Vanos unit seeing that i do hear noise from under the hood when the tach reaches about 2200 or so, and the trans isn't slipping at all. But i thought the people at FA would of known if it was the Vanos unit if they were so called specialist. Im going to bring this to their attention, maybe they overlooked it or dont know what it is.

[Macv]

I would just stop messing with the idiots and run to your dealer.

As many have said before, they clearly don't have a clue what they're doing.

[Dragunov]

I know i have no word here, but i wouldn't thrust a company called foreign accent. And after seeing their *cough* skill i would save what i can and take the car to someone who knows what they're doing.

[granit_silber]

Go to Mann Motorsports. They're off the PTIA exit on 40
-ashley