take a look at my spark plugs please

[infurno]

Ever since I got my E34 a year back its burnt oil and smoked when I first start it. It lasts only a few seconds and its gone. There is no smoke while driving. Sometimes if I start the car and don't throttle a bit to burn the oil in the cylinders properly, the spark plugs foul up and one by one stop functioning. This is a big problem during the winter, I have to change my plugs every two weeks! They have worked fine for months now that the weather is better, but fouled up again a few days back.

There is no smoke while the car runs. No smoke during throttle. Only for a few seconds after ignition.

I always use highest octane fuel, hoping it will burn hotter and keep the plugs clean.

My logic is that if it was bad piston rings it would always smoke but that's not the case.

Do I just have bad valve seals?


http://www.buysmartpc.com/e34/1.JPG
http://www.buysmartpc.com/e34/2.JPG
http://www.buysmartpc.com/e34/3.JPG
http://www.buysmartpc.com/e34/4.JPG

[infurno]

http://www.buysmartpc.com/e34/5.JPG
http://www.buysmartpc.com/e34/6.JPG

Sorry about the soft pictures, I don't have a tripod here.

[Tiger]

The horror! THE HORROR! OMG! No freaking way... You got a monster leak... not just a freakin valve seals. What is your current mileage?

[infurno]

:(

sorry, I forgot to give some car data.
258,000 miles
m20, 1990 525i

[Ross]

Woo, these look like something off the Titanic.
Bad valve guides will make it smoke when you get off the throttle at high speed and when starting. Rings when under power.
Your pcv could be at fault. Don't know what engine you have.
A compression or leakdown test will help figure this out. Shouldn't be hard to spot with that much crap on the plugs in two weeks.

[Dr. evil]

OMG......WTF... that could be a problem

[632 Regal]

that is McNasty! Looks to me like your engine is plain worn out. It's time to either re-ring the pistons, change the valve seals, or replace the engine with something a bit younger.

[bigtisas]

Boy, worst plugs I have ever seen. Looks like mineral deposit from water/coolant.

[filip00]

damn, i've never seen anything like this. wow.

[Karl]

It always amazes me how bad an engine can get and still keep running. At 250K you're overdue for a valve job, at least. Bottom end of BMW engines is pretty tough--my local indie/guru says he generally sees the bottom on customers' cars to last till the second valve job is due. But the way to tell is with a leak down test to see that the rings are still OK. Then pull the head for a valve job, which will include new valve seals and head gasket. Toss in a new water pump too, while you're there...

[infurno]

thanks for the advice everyone. I'll have the compression/leak down tests done and see how bad it really is.

Its every cylinder, not just 1 or two. That gives me the feeling that it shouldn't be the piston rings, unless all 6 of the the piston rings failed at once.

What I think it may be is poorly installed seals and gaskets. I believe my father did it himself, and while hes not a bad mechanic I have heard BMW engines are pretty about how you do that.

I'm just a college student so I really don't have the opportunity to have the engine rebuilt. I would like to pop the head off and see whats going on down there, but I have been told that once you take the head off you must replace the gaskets before putting it back together.

Is this true?

[Dave M]

Out of interest, how much oil/coolant do you use per 1000 miles, km, fill up, minute ;). As elluded to, we'd be speculating to try and diagnose it without results of wet/dry compression or leak down tests. I had a single cylinder with a low dry compresion value due to a loose bottom end, which caused smoking following vacuum conditons (coasting down long hill in gear). Even my one 'bad' plug looked new compared to any of your plugs. If its both botttom and top end, might be easiest to drop in a used engine, depending on expertise, time and funds.

Dave

[Dave M]

thanks for the advice everyone. I'll have the compression/leak down tests done and see how bad it really is.

Its every cylinder, not just 1 or two. That gives me the feeling that it shouldn't be the piston rings, unless all 6 of the the piston rings failed at once.

What I think it may be is poorly installed seals and gaskets. I believe my father did it himself, and while hes not a bad mechanic I have heard BMW engines are pretty about how you do that.

I'm just a college student so I really don't have the opportunity to have the engine rebuilt. I would like to pop the head off and see whats going on down there, but I have been told that once you take the head off you must replace the gaskets before putting it back together.

Is this true?

Yep, very much true, along with a few other items such as head bolts etc. I would stick with getting a reputable mechanic to perform the tests as they will tell you much more than a view of your cylinder bores. In fact, I'd wager the view would do nothing but cost you money ;) Compression tests are relatively cheap and easy to do yourself. Buy a comp tester for $20-30 and do a dry and wet test first, then get a leak down if theres doubt remaining. let us know if yiou need any help.

Dave

[infurno]

Out of interest, how much oil/coolant do you use per 1000 miles, km, fill up, minute ;). As elluded to, we'd be speculating to try and diagnose it without results of wet/dry compression or leak down tests. I had a single cylinder with a low dry compresion value due to a loose bottom end, which caused smoking following vacuum conditons (coasting down long hill in gear). Even my one 'bad' plug looked new compared to any of your plugs. If its both botttom and top end, might be easiest to drop in a used engine, depending on expertise, time and funds.

Dave

Its strange, because it can be fine for weeks even months without any problems. Except for a bit of smoke at ignition I tend to forget about it. (Unless its winter where it just happens so damn often)

Its been running great, till it went out a few days back. Went to the BMW dealership to attempt getting my radio unlocked, when I started the car I forgot to give it a bit of throttle and as soon as I was on the street I felt a reduction in power and a vibration in the car. I knew I was down to 5 cylinders again.

I have not had to add oil in months, I'm at about the 1/2 way level right now. (which I will take care of tonight) During the winter I have to add a bit every week.

There are no strange engine noises, and with clean plugs you can barely tell the engine is running.

[Tiger]

Leakdown tester is also cheap at harborfreight.com. Easy to do yourself as long you know at what degree. both valves are closed for each cylinder.... Bentley should tell you.

[bones]

inferno,everyone thats responded to your engines current condition is on the money.have you gone from mineral based oils to synthetics recently?.your plugs are simply the result of somthing definitly,absolutely,no doubt,gone very wrong.dont think you can drive this issue out of the car you have to find it and fix it.that shi# is going past your exhaust valves and onto your o2 sensor,then plugging up your catalytec converter.it's a long shot but pull your valve cover and put a torque wrench on all the head bolts,you should have no movement of the hardware below 30 ft lbs.do the correct tightening sequence by the book when you are checking for movement.if they move below 30 ft lbs you can attempt to retorque the head but the gasket will definitly be bad and this fix wont last long if the problem stops. bones

[Jon K]

Holy jesus christ save his cars life NOW

Those are the worst plugs I have ever, ever, ever seen and I have seen a LOT of plugs, holy crap.

This is not a typical "bad oil" or "bad fuel" plug. That is showing signs of fuel depostis, cracked ceramic, some sort of CRAZY growth between the electrode and ground strap... that thins is just wrong on all fronts.

I suspect bad oil leak into the cylinders combined with water leaking into the cylinders combined with fuel not burning completely due to the above - that is very bad. If I were you, I'd look around for another M20 (they're cheap) and just plainly swap it. I know this isn't the answer you want to hear, but dude you'll be either rebuilding the top end to find its the bottom end or vice versa - that is a horrible, horrible plug man.

[infurno]

Thanks again I really appreciate everyones comments.


inferno,everyone thats responded to your engines current condition is on the money.have you gone from mineral based oils to synthetics recently?.your plugs are simply the result of somthing definitly,absolutely,no doubt,gone very wrong.dont think you can drive this issue out of the car you have to find it and fix it.that shi# is going past your exhaust valves and onto your o2 sensor,then plugging up your catalytec converter.it's a long shot but pull your valve cover and put a torque wrench on all the head bolts,you should have no movement of the hardware below 30 ft lbs.do the correct tightening sequence by the book when you are checking for movement.if they move below 30 ft lbs you can attempt to retorque the head but the gasket will definitly be bad and this fix wont last long if the problem stops. bones

Gave it some thought before but I have never used synthetic motor oil.

This is my only ride to class/work so I can't afford taking the risk of removing the head and not being able to put it all back together securely.

I think the best thing for me to do right now is that compression test. Just found my compression test kit tonight so once I find the relays to remove I hope I can get it done tomorrow.


Holy jesus christ save his cars life NOW

Those are the worst plugs I have ever, ever, ever seen and I have seen a LOT of plugs, holy crap.

This is not a typical "bad oil" or "bad fuel" plug. That is showing signs of fuel depostis, cracked ceramic, some sort of CRAZY growth between the electrode and ground strap... that thins is just wrong on all fronts.

I suspect bad oil leak into the cylinders combined with water leaking into the cylinders combined with fuel not burning completely due to the above - that is very bad. If I were you, I'd look around for another M20 (they're cheap) and just plainly swap it. I know this isn't the answer you want to hear, but dude you'll be either rebuilding the top end to find its the bottom end or vice versa - that is a horrible, horrible plug man.


Swapping the engine is something that has been on my mind for a long time. My only concern about doing that is that any m20 I find will be old and used, I would just be buying someone else's problems.

I'm about to spend $400 on new front end parts (control arms, bushings, ect...) Then I need some body work done. If this engine is bad maybe I should just consider getting a new E34 or an E38.

If water was getting into the cylinders, I would have to keep adding coolant? I have not had to add coolant since I got the car a year ago.

It may be under some doubt right now but I honestly do take care of my E34.

[DaveVoorhis]

I always use highest octane fuel, hoping it will burn hotter and keep the plugs clean.

Higher octane fuel doesn't burn hotter. Higher octane fuel is simply more likely to burn smoothly (good -- efficiently produces power) and not detonate (bad -- reduces power and if excessive, can cause engine damage) than lower octane fuel for a given compression ratio and spark advance. In an engine with a knock sensor, the engine computer can adjust the spark advance to a point just prior to detonation where maximum power is produced. Therefore, on engines designed to run on high octane fuel and that have knock sensors, higher octane fuel can result in better performance than lower octane fuel.

In engines without a knock sensor (like your M20), using higher octane than recommended is simply a waste of money, and some say it's more likely to carbon up the head and plugs.

However, your plugs have entered a whole new world of frightening deposits. They made me wet my pants. Your engine is sick.

[Macv]

It may be under some doubt right now but I honestly do take care of my E34.


With 200+k on the odo, most of the damage was done before you bought it, so I doubt anyone will directly blame you for the mistreatment. That is a scary sight, and I wish you the best in fixing it.

[infurno]

Higher octane fuel doesn't burn hotter. Higher octane fuel is simply more likely to burn smoothly (good -- efficiently produces power) and not detonate (bad -- reduces power and if excessive, can cause engine damage) than lower octane fuel for a given compression ratio and spark advance. In an engine with a knock sensor, the engine computer can adjust the spark advance to a point just prior to detonation where maximum power is produced. Therefore, on engines designed to run on high octane fuel and that have knock sensors, higher octane fuel can result in better performance than lower octane fuel.

In engines without a knock sensor (like your M20), using higher octane than recommended is simply a waste of money, and some say it's more likely to carbon up the head and plugs.

However, your plugs have entered a whole new world of frightening deposits. They made me wet my pants. Your engine is sick.

Thats a lot of good info. I honestly did notice that my plugs lasted longer with high octane fule (91+). If I had noticed any kind of negative side effects I would have stopped immediately. There is no "pinging" or anything like that, engine runs smooth and quiet.

I need to stop using high octane asap?

[DaveVoorhis]

I honestly did notice that my plugs lasted longer with high octane fule (91+).
Something very funky is happening in your combustion chambers, so it's not surprising that a different fuel formulation has an effect on the process -- perhaps it's the cleansers and additives in "Premium" fuel that are "cleaning" (I use the term loosely) the plugs a little, but without a controlled experiment on your engine to objectively compare lower octane fuel with higher octane fuel, it's hard to say. Your impression that the plugs last longer might be subjective, or due to other (possibly coincidental) environmental conditions.


I need to stop using high octane asap?
At this point, I think the octane of the fuel is the least of your worries.

[Ferret]

With 200+k on the odo, most of the damage was done before you bought it, so I doubt anyone will directly blame you for the mistreatment. That is a scary sight, and I wish you the best in fixing it.

My M50 525i was doing this kind of damage to one spark plug when half of piston 3 went missing into the sump.

I'd say it's time for a new engine...

[Dave M]

Let us know when you have the compression test results or need help doing the test. I'm very interested in seeing the numbers, both wet and dry.

Oh, and Jon, I think those were ALL SIX plugs :O

Dave

[bones]

hey inferno,sounds like you are determined to make this car go farther down the road no matter what.there's probably not a mech out there that hasnt been tempted to drive a car til it grenades,there is some kind of totally sick pleasure derived from hearing a engine coming apart as long as you are mashing the pedal to the floor and seeing smoke billowing from the back of your car from the rearview mirror,other drivers will pull up along side you and try to get you to be aware of what is going on.just smile at them and hold up an empty 40 ounce can of beer and give them a big grin.

[bmwrp8]

WHOA!!! I could see baby gnomes growing in there!!

[infurno]

hey inferno,sounds like you are determined to make this car go farther down the road no matter what.there's probably not a mech out there that hasnt been tempted to drive a car til it grenades,there is some kind of totally sick pleasure derived from hearing a engine coming apart as long as you are mashing the pedal to the floor and seeing smoke billowing from the back of your car from the rearview mirror,other drivers will pull up along side you and try to get you to be aware of what is going on.just smile at them and hold up an empty 40 ounce can of beer and give them a big grin.

What do you expect me to do? I don't have any other options. Finishing up my college and today enrolled in a university.

You would have to be pretty sick to get pleasure from destroying a car imho. I personally hate it when people destroy things of value, especially a BMW. I love my e28 and my e34, I keep them clean, treat the leather every month, clean and maintain the engine as best as I can. The car was on its way to the salvage yard before I asked to have it. It was in bad shape, I have been restoring it ever since.

Its been a long day and was tired, didn't get a chance to do that compression test. What I did get to do was remove a few plugs and check out what they look like. Except for a little oil on them they are clean(not washed like clean), no deposits. I believe they stay in ok condition until moments before they quickly begin to fail.

I'll try to get that test done tomorrow. I will follow a guide I found on bmwe34.net


Procedure:
1. Remove all the spark plugs, disconnect the DME main relay and fuel pump relay (engine with EML, remove the fuel pump relay). 535i, disconnect the ignition coil wire.
2. Install the compression gauge in the 1st cylinder, crank the engine a minimum of 4 revolutions and record the first and the highest readings. If the 1st reading is low and slowly increases to a normal reading, worn rings or cylinder walls are likely to be a problem.
Results: Minimum: 10-11 bar (142-159 Psi) - Maximum difference between cyl: 0.5bar (7Psi)

[bones]

infurno,that was a perfect response.you defend your bimmer.youve got to find the problem yourself.checking head bolt torques is as easy as pulling sparkplugs.the fact that the problem came on relatively quickly leads me to suspect a completely wasted head gasket.im restoring a 525I with 246,000 miles on it.i bought it from the second owner who only owned it for six months.the car had been run on castrol GTX 10/40 since new,he decided to switch to mobil 0/40 full synthetic.after a few thousand miles the head started pumping oil out past the head gasket and he parked it for good.i pulled the head and found that all the head bolts were under torqued,the oil had saturated the head gasket causing,oil leaks,blowby from one cylinder to the next,and fouling plugs.not to mention pumping enough compression into the cooling system to blow the top hose off the radiator.your motor isnt burning oil its pumping it.id lay odds on head gasket or pcv system. when you have the valve cover off use a flashlight and look inside the two springs on top of each valve,you will see the valve stem in the center and right wher the stem comes up through the head you should be able to see the stem seals,they should be firmly attached to the top of the guide.if someone installed incorrectly,or wrong parts here that would also cause your problem. bones

[infurno]

Hey everyone, I just finished the compression test.

cylinder.........up to..........fell to*
(1)................190............180
(2)................190............180
(3)................195............180
(4)................180............170
(5)................160............150 :(
(6)................180............170

* Im not sure if this is important but I included it anyway. After it peaked it would fall a bit and stop.

Note on #5, when I removed the spark plug , I saw a bit(just a little dash) of white ceramic. Not a lot, just a touch. I think water may be getting into this one...

All spark plugs are nice and clean, no deposits.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[Dave M]

Hey everyone, I just finished the compression test.

cylinder.........up to..........fell to*
(1)................190............180
(2)................190............180
(3)................195............180
(4)................180............170
(5)................160............150 :(
(6)................180............170

* Im not sure if this is important but I included it anyway. After it peaked it would fall a bit and stop.

Note on #5, when I removed the spark plug , I saw a bit(just a little dash) of white ceramic. Not a lot, just a touch. I think water may be getting into this one...

All spark plugs are nice and clean, no deposits.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Well done. If it only took a couple of cranks to get up to those values, your dry test looks good on all but #5. The second #s don't mean anything as the check valve won't allow meaningful leakage values to be recorded. Did you do a wet test on #5? If not, drop a teaspoon of oil into #5 and repeat the test. If it increases to the neighbourhood of the other values, you may a bad bottom end (rings). If not, it may be in your head ;). This is where a leakdown test is very helpfull.

Oh, was that all six of your plugs in your initial post? I can't explain why you'd have that much shite on all six with comp values like that.

Dave

[Dave M]

Oh, and if water is getting into #5, you should be seeing a loss of coolant over time OR a mixing of oil coolant which would retain your resevoir level. Probably already been answered, but do you see oil scum in the coolant resevoir? Frothy oil mix on the dipstick?

[infurno]

The plug pictures I posted in the first page are the set of 6 plugs I just replaced. (may not have a picture of each individual plug up though)

Not just 1 cylinder. At random one of the 6 will completely fail. I lose power, vibrations go through the car... Thats what the set comes out looking like.

[infurno]

Oh, and if water is getting into #5, you should be seeing a loss of coolant over time OR a mixing of oil coolant which would retain your resevoir level. Probably already been answered, but do you see oil scum in the coolant resevoir? Frothy oil mix on the dipstick?

The dipstick is normal. Just simple oil.
As far as I can tell, the coolant is clean too. No presence of oil in the reservoir.

I never need to add coolant too. There is no smoke I can detect in the exhaust. Hand stays dry if I place it near the exhaust.