OT Ever see the doccumentary Sicko?

[632 Regal]

Very amazing information

[bigtisas]

Without universal health care, we could be in deep **** if we are out of work. Many countries have universal health cares Hong Kong, Japan, Canada, UK, France...etc. Their health systems are not perfect but at least you don't have to worry about insurance.

[Macv]

You only hear the bad stuff in the news and movies these days. Maybe it's the reason everyone in America has a bad attitude toward everything.

[632 Regal]

according to the documentary the US is the ONLY western country to NOT have UHC. Thanks the the pharmaceutical industry and the pay offs they did. Remember Hillary Rod and her push for UHC? she was even paid off to walk away. I usually look at both sides of any documentary but in researching the facts in this I cant find anything skewed about it. We in the US can go to any hospital anywhere besides here, including France and Cuba and get as good of or better care than here...without insurance and not even being a citizen there and not walk out with a single bill...unless you count the 5¢ breather the lady needed that cost 120 here. King George can kiss my ass.

[Zeuk in Oz]

Very amazing information
Not yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

I must say that Oz has what I consider an excellent health system in that we have Medicare which is a nationalised health scheme and on top of that we have a private system that allows choice of specialist etc.

We can have private insurance but still use the public system.

The other advantage we have is that our doctors practise preventative medicine. :)

Best of both worlds.

By comparison my sister is working in Sweden as a doctor for a year - that system is totally nationalised and a patient gets no choice at all as to specialist etc. The doctors there have to practise according to a ready reckoner. If you have symptoms a,f & r, treat with X.

They also don't practise preventative medicine. :(

I have never understood why the US didn't bite the bullet on medicine and social security reform rather than spending trillions in Iraq.

[markus]

we do have free health care in the US. Only if you are an illegal immigrant living in the US. you can thank good ol uncle sam and the cronies in charge for that.

[632 Regal]

Preventative is the answer, my juniors has a cronic disease and the only MD fix is removing his spleen! So i have a chronic headeche removing my brain is the answer???? fukt up here man. US meds and docs are fukt.


Not yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

I must say that Oz has what I consider an excellent health system in that we have Medicare which is a nationalised health scheme and on top of that we have a private system that allows choice of specialist etc.

We can have private insurance but still use the public system.

The other advantage we have is that our doctors practise preventative medicine. :)

Best of both worlds.

By comparison my sister is working in Sweden as a doctor for a year - that system is totally nationalised and a patient gets no choice at all as to specialist etc. The doctors there have to practise according to a ready reckoner. If you have symptoms a,f & r, treat with X.

They also don't practise preventative medicine. :(

I have never understood why the US didn't bite the bullet on medicine and social security reform rather than spending trillions in Iraq.

[Fred Tyler]

In Australia it isn't free as such, every taxpayer pays 3% extra and then some are encouraged (by way of paying more when there income goes beyond 50k?) to have private coverage as well. I am not sure of the figures, well I don't get that kind of money!
Oh and about the movie MM is a lying fat f**k.

[Morgenster]

For us it's as good as free. There's two fail-safe's for people who are ill. The doctor's bill is usually re-imbursed by some 85% and if the sum total of medical bills exceeds a certain value per year you get that back too. Same with pharmaceuticals but only prescribed.
Regal, can I ask wat's your son's condition?

[GoldenOne]

well technically US does...remember the bit about Guantanamo? Those inmates have the good life lol

but to be honest, I think our system is sooo fukt that it would be extremely hard to switch to a UHC cold turkey. The only way I see that it could work is raising taxes significantly for atleast a decade then transition to a full blown UHC, which wont go over well for majority of Americans...

[repenttokyo]

. We in the US can go to any hospital anywhere besides here, including France and Cuba and get as good of or better care than here...without insurance and not even being a citizen there and not walk out with a single bill...unless you count the 5¢ breather the lady needed that cost 120 here. King George can kiss my ass.


That's not true...if you don't have a medicare card in canada (ie, you are not a citizen) it's a minimum of 100 dollars up front before anyone will even register you in emergency, and you will be billed for the entire cost of your visit and for any tests that were performed, etc. We don't give away free healthcare to non-citizens. Even Canadian citizens who don't present a valid health card are in the same boat.

[indierthanthou]

no kidding. i have to pay for my own insurance now, so i cant even go to a doctor or hospital unless i get hit by a bus or something, because i pay everything up to i think 3000 bucks.

[bsell]

In Australia it isn't free as such, every taxpayer pays 3% extra and then some are encouraged (by way of paying more when there income goes beyond 50k?) to have private coverage as well. I am not sure of the figures, well I don't get that kind of money!
Oh and about the movie MM is a lying fat f**k.

Yes, Moore did cherry pick his story pieces. Of course, any health care system will have its horror stories, unfortunately. But he did several apples to oranges comparisons to make his case stronger.

Having spent the last 16 years in the US military medical system (gotta love vitaman M for everything), I am in no hurry for 'universal' health care. There ain't nothing like getting prescribed a bottle of 800mg Motrin (100 tabs) for the same problem two days in a row. Even after telling the 'doc' that I can't take the pills without them eating a hole in my gut. Even after telling him I would flush all 198 pills down the toilet because I had to get the perscription filled or face 'not following doctor's orders.' Luckily doc three on the third day had a clue and gave me some hot-rod Alleve which took care of the problem. I have other horror stories (how about almost getting a below-the-knee amputation for a basketball injury?) from the military 'health' care system but I ask you to trust that bad things can happen no matter who is running the show. The difference in a competitive system is the quacks get run out of business eventually.

Brian

[Ferret]

no kidding. i have to pay for my own insurance now, so i cant even go to a doctor or hospital unless i get hit by a bus or something, because i pay everything up to i think 3000 bucks.

In the UK, the NHS is berated a lot because it's generally craptacular... however after reading this, I'm glad that it exists.

Everyone's entitled to be healthy and go and visit their GP for any reason, no matter how small it is. Having an 'excess' on that would drive me crazy with fear about having to visit a doctor etc.

EDIT: Having said that we do pay a second 'tax' to fund it called National Health Insurance. Everyone pays this as tax on their income regardless, upto a certain maximum amount. It's not a huge amount, but it's probably comparable to most private health plans.

[pgrindstaff]

I have not seen the documentary but do know that Michael Moore conveniently forgot to mention all of the cases where people come to the US for treatment because of long waiting lists on surgeries that could mean the difference between life and death if not taken care of immediately.

I think people should also look at the idea of UHC from the standpoint of how well the government as spent all of the other money set aside such as Social Security, which is basically bankrupt now. There are many other areas in which money has been mismanaged that pretty much removes all trust I have in the government to give me whatever healthcare I need when I need it.

Call me a selfish SOB if you like, but I'd rather pay for my own personal health care instead of contributing to everyone's healthcare, particularly those who do not contribute to it. Anyway, thats my 2 cents

[J.DeFeo]

I have not seen the documentary but do know that Michael Moore conveniently forgot to mention all of the cases where people come to the US for treatment because of long waiting lists on surgeries that could mean the difference between life and death if not taken care of immediately.

I think people should also look at the idea of UHC from the standpoint of how well the government as spent all of the other money set aside such as Social Security, which is basically bankrupt now. There are many other areas in which money has been mismanaged that pretty much removes all trust I have in the government to give me whatever healthcare I need when I need it.

Call me a selfish SOB if you like, but I'd rather pay for my own personal health care instead of contributing to everyone's healthcare, particularly those who do not contribute to it. Anyway, thats my 2 cents

He STILL lies about the wait for medical procedures in Canadian hospitals. He swears up and down that there is no wait, whereas if you ask any Canadian they'll laugh at you for suggesting it. He's a lying fat sack of crap and this nation simply can't afford nationalized healthcare, at least not while the War On Terror is still in full swing.

[Zeuk in Oz]

In Australia it isn't free as such, every taxpayer pays 3% extra and then some are encouraged (by way of paying more when there income goes beyond 50k?) to have private coverage as well. I am not sure of the figures, well I don't get that kind of money!
Oh and about the movie MM is a lying fat f**k.
I never suggested that Medicare was free in Oz.

Everyone over a certain income pays a levy, but lower income earners and pensioners do not.

Private insurance is encouraged in various ways including flat rates with ageing, however the beauty of the system is that even though I have private health insurance I can be admitted to a hospital as a public patient if I so choose.

In other words, the patient is in control and has a choice. This is its advantage, in my opinion.

[repenttokyo]

Call me a selfish SOB if you like, but I'd rather pay for my own personal health care instead of contributing to everyone's healthcare, particularly those who do not contribute to it. Anyway, thats my 2 cents


this is one of the largest fundamental differences between canadians and americans.

[repenttokyo]

He STILL lies about the wait for medical procedures in Canadian hospitals. He swears up and down that there is no wait, whereas if you ask any Canadian they'll laugh at you for suggesting it. He's a lying fat sack of crap and this nation simply can't afford nationalized healthcare, at least not while the War On Terror is still in full swing.

ummm, it really depends on the procedure, many procedures have extremely small wait times. I'm a Canadian, btw. Don't know if you are.

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

he should move to one of those full coverage countries.

[Ross]

Agreed.

[pgrindstaff]

The problem with Moore's "documentaries" is that people take his word for truth without actually doing any further research, resulting in a whole bunch of people believing somthing that is not entirely true, or not true at all if that's the case. I think what it all boils down to is that when people watch these "documentaries" they only want to see one side of the story, take it as the absolute truth, then blast anyone who doesn't agree with them.

[dacoyote]

he should move to one of those full coverage countries.

Him and all his worthless cronnies...

[Zeuk in Oz]

The problem with Moore's "documentaries" is that people take his word for truth without actually doing any further research, resulting in a whole bunch of people believing somthing that is not entirely true, or not true at all if that's the case. I think what it all boils down to is that when people watch these "documentaries" they only want to see one side of the story, take it as the absolute truth, then blast anyone who doesn't agree with them.
I would have to disagree with this.

The problem with Moore's documentaries isn't that they are biassed or selective. They certainly are that, but otherwise he would have no effect.

The problem is that Michael Moore has a social conscience in an era when this is not fashionable. He points out problems that the majority don't want to see because "they are all right Jack" !

Moore is selective but so are goverments and the authorities when it comes to getting their way. Moore is fighting fire with fire, so to speak.

In the era of invading Iraq and fighting terrorism the unfortunate members of society get left behind and get no funding. Moore is fighting for them the only way he can. Actually in his previous documentaries (I haven't seen this one yet), much of what he said was actually true, he just selectively avoided information that didn't suit him.

As they say, the first casualty of war is the truth. Our governments are waging a war against us and the certainly don't tell us all the facts either. They would prefer to occupy us with religion, sport, gambling and alcohol to stop us sitting around plotting how to overthrow them.

Michael Moore has a role to play in our world - without naysayers it would be a much worse place.

[pgrindstaff]

I would have to disagree with this.

The problem with Moore's documentaries isn't that they are biassed or selective. They certainly are that, but otherwise he would have no effect.

The problem is that Michael Moore has a social conscience in an era when this is not fashionable. He points out problems that the majority don't want to see because "they are all right Jack" !

Moore is selective but so are goverments and the authorities when it comes to getting their way. Moore is fighting fire with fire, so to speak.

In the era of invading Iraq and fighting terrorism the unfortunate members of society get left behind and get no funding. Moore is fighting for them the only way he can. Actually in his previous documentaries (I haven't seen this one yet), much of what he said was actually true, he just selectively avoided information that didn't suit him.

As they say, the first casualty of war is the truth. Our governments are waging a war against us and the certainly don't tell us all the facts either. They would prefer to occupy us with religion, sport, gambling and alcohol to stop us sitting around plotting how to overthrow them.

Michael Moore has a role to play in our world - without naysayers it would be a much worse place.

I agree with you...to a point. While I am well aware that there are people that have no means of supporting themselves due to disability or whatever the reason there are still people that can basically be summed up as giant leeches that take everything they can from our government in the way of funding when they don't really need it. That would have to be one of the major problems and no one can pin that on Moore. Unfortunately, our society tends to believe that they are entitled to the best and don't want to lift a finger for what they have or what they want, they'd rather take from the people who work hard for a living.

Another problem I see is that some people are quite ignorant and/or only want to know one side of the story. Again, this is not Moore's fault and actually it is quite brilliant from a political standpioint because he is able to play everyone who watches his documentaries by only supplying enough information to suit him as you said. This obviously extends further than the nationalized health care issue but is particularly relevant to the topic of this thread.

Moore can't be blamed for societies ignorance but I personally think it takes away a lot of credibility to only present one side of an argument on such a large issue. I guess we are all guilty of that though...

[tim s]

i pay for my own health care, i see no issue with me paying for it myself.
i am self imployed with a family.
anyone who thinks they are entitled to free health care have no concept on quality control.
you only get what you pay for.
i prefer to be able to choose when to go, where to go, what to have done to myself.
i have several doctors as clients they all say the same thing.
why is it people come here from canada to get simple procedures done?
patients in canada can be forced to wait 2-3 weeks for a simple mri i can get here within a day or 2.

my father has 2 rare blood diseases.
the first doctor he saw gave him no info, no treatment, & when they asked questions he would not provide direct answers. my nephew finally convinced him to go elsewhere, the new doctor told him exactly what he needed, & started to give him treatments for the disease.
even tho he had to pay for his own insurance which is not cheap, he still had options & treatments.
did you know under the hillary health care system you would not recieve the treatment unless the doctor could garrantee that it would make 20% or more improvement in health, & if you did not qualify you are not allowed to pay for it out of your own pocket.
so hillary can shove her plan.
i will keep paying it myself without complaints.
tim s.

[pgrindstaff]

...did you know under the hillary health care system you would not recieve the treatment unless the doctor could garrantee that it would make 20% or more improvement in health, & if you did not qualify you are not allowed to pay for it out of your own pocket.
so hillary can shove her plan.
i will keep paying it myself without complaints.
tim s.

I actually didn't know the details of her health care plan but now that you have shown some light on it I think I know exactly where she can shove it. Her whole plan for the country is based on people feeling entitled to ****. I thought the whole reason our country came to be was because our forefathers wanted LESS government control, so why the hell are the dems trying to take back a whole bunch of control and ruin the American way of life? If I wanted to live with a large amount of government control I'd move to Russia or Canada.

[Dave M]

i pay for my own health care, i see no issue with me paying for it myself.
i am self imployed with a family.
anyone who thinks they are entitled to free health care have no concept on quality control.
you only get what you pay for.
i prefer to be able to choose when to go, where to go, what to have done to myself.
i have several doctors as clients they all say the same thing.
why is it people come here from canada to get simple procedures done?
patients in canada can be forced to wait 2-3 weeks for a simple mri i can get here within a day or 2.

my father has 2 rare blood diseases.
the first doctor he saw gave him no info, no treatment, & when they asked questions he would not provide direct answers. my nephew finally convinced him to go elsewhere, the new doctor told him exactly what he needed, & started to give him treatments for the disease.
even tho he had to pay for his own insurance which is not cheap, he still had options & treatments.
did you know under the hillary health care system you would not recieve the treatment unless the doctor could garrantee that it would make 20% or more improvement in health, & if you did not qualify you are not allowed to pay for it out of your own pocket.
so hillary can shove her plan.
i will keep paying it myself without complaints.
tim s.

I don't know anything about the "Hillary Plan", but I'd like to clarify a few things about the Canadian system. First, we do have a choice of who to see and can receive a second, third or fourth opinion. I just got back from a fishing trip with two doctors I would trust my life with, so maybe my view of the quality is scewed. True, we do drive across the border to get MRI's and other procedures which have relatively large wait times when compared to the US. This is frequent target for those opposed to UHC and Canadians hear it constantly. It seems to be the only valid argument against the Candian system. However, in these cases, we can exploit the US system's best attributes while retaining our access to free health care. We don't have the number of machines (MRI) and we do lose a large number of docs / nurses etc. to the US, due to the competetive market which ultimately drives salaries up. Regardless, 99% of the time, we have access to adequate, free health care. The other 1%, god forbid I ever need it, I'll hop a flight to MN and pay the same thing you do :)

Oh, I was having a chat with some guys from Ohio that spend their summer here, and they were saying that while canada has UHC, and they would love to have it, they do get cheaper cigarettes, booze and gas in the US. Think about it...............

Dave

[Dave M]

I actually didn't know the details of her health care plan but now that you have shown some light on it I think I know exactly where she can shove it. Her whole plan for the country is based on people feeling entitled to ****. I thought the whole reason our country came to be was because our forefathers wanted LESS government control, so why the hell are the dems trying to take back a whole bunch of control and ruin the American way of life? If I wanted to live with a large amount of government control I'd move to Russia or Canada.

Yeah, the gov is constantly on my back here ;)

[tim s]

I don't know anything about the "Hillary Plan", but I'd like to clarify a few things about the Canadian system. First, we do have a choice of who to see and can receive a second, third or fourth opinion. I just got back from a fishing trip with two doctors I would trust my life with, so maybe my view of the quality is scewed. True, we do drive across the border to get MRI's and other procedures which have relatively large wait times when compared to the US. This is frequent target for those opposed to UHC and Canadians hear it constantly. It seems to be the only valid argument against the Candian system. However, in these cases, we can exploit the US system's best attributes while retaining our access to free health care. We don't have the number of machines (MRI) and we do lose a large number of docs / nurses etc. to the US, due to the competetive market which ultimately drives salaries up. Regardless, 99% of the time, we have access to adequate, free health care. The other 1%, god forbid I ever need it, I'll hop a flight to MN and pay the same thing you do :)

Oh, I was having a chat with some guys from Ohio that spend their summer here, and they were saying that while canada has UHC, and they would love to have it, they do get cheaper cigarettes, booze and gas in the US. Think about it...............

Dave

you did say you could drive here if needed.
so if we change to the system you have, then what will you do?
tim s.

[pgrindstaff]

"Free" as in pay more taxes...

[M20Turbo]

Oh, I was having a chat with some guys from Ohio that spend their summer here, and they were saying that while canada has UHC, and they would love to have it, they do get cheaper cigarettes, booze and gas in the US. Think about it...............

Dave

So who is running things?

[repenttokyo]

why is it people come here from canada to get simple procedures done?
patients in canada can be forced to wait 2-3 weeks for a simple mri i can get here within a day or 2.

i don't mean any disrespect, but you don't really know what you are talking about when it comes to the "canadian system". Your information is not correct. I am a canadian who has had fairly extensive experience with the medical system here.

also, anyone who expects drive through MRI's on every corner in a country with only 30 million people spread out in the world's second largest country, geographically, needs a reality check. Apples to oranges comparisons of specific aspects of two different systems in 2 radically different demographics are not useful.

[repenttokyo]

Yeah, the gov is constantly on my back here ;)


that's because you live the life of an outlaw! :p

[Dave M]

"Free" as in pay more taxes...

Yeah, more taxes on cigarettes, booze and gas. You should try it sometime :D

Dave

[Jon K]

Jeff, get real. You see the interviews with the doctors in england?

"So.... you get free healthcare, have a new audi, and make over 125kE a year?"

"Yep!"

Ok...

Then, increase cost of living by 4x, take them almost 50%+ and yeah, sounds great..

[632 Regal]

WTF are you even on here for? you are completely useless for 99% of the people here, why even bother besides your greedy attention.


Jeff, get real. You see the interviews with the doctors in england?

"So.... you get free healthcare, have a new audi, and make over 125kE a year?"

"Yep!"

Ok...

Then, increase cost of living by 4x, take them almost 50%+ and yeah, sounds great..

[bigtisas]

Move to Hong Kong. Universal health care, average 15% income tax, no sale tax, no property tax.

Downside is 100% tax on all cars.

[tim s]

i don't mean any disrespect, but you don't really know what you are talking about when it comes to the "canadian system". Your information is not correct. I am a canadian who has had fairly extensive experience with the medical system here.

also, anyone who expects drive through MRI's on every corner in a country with only 30 million people spread out in the world's second largest country, geographically, needs a reality check. Apples to oranges comparisons of specific aspects of two different systems in 2 radically different demographics are not useful.


tim s.

[dacoyote]

WTF are you even on here for? yoyu are completely useless for 99% of the people here, why even bother besides your greedy attention.

I think it's nap time Jeff... even though there are other people that say that same about that wanker.

[repenttokyo]

tim s.


we are going to have to agree to disagree then. i don't have much direct experience with the american health system other than trips to the emergency room, and i don't feel that qualifies me to comment on it's details. second hand knowledge from people who may have an axe to grind is not the best thing to form an opinion on. i have never had to wait weeks for surgery, and there are many options when it comes to testing. I will leave it at that.

[Ferret]

I think it's nap time Jeff... even though there are other people that say that same about that wanker.

This forum really needs a '+:D' button for its threads to show comedy value.

[dacoyote]

This forum really needs a '+:D' button for its threads to show comedy value.

I assume all threads are funny.... I still visit / post and don't even have an e34 anymore

[Dave M]

you did say you could drive here if needed.
so if we change to the system you have, then what will you do?
tim s.


Good question. I'll just cross my fingers that as I age, enough accessible private health care exists. Canada is still grappling with whether or not to adopt a "two tiered system" allowing for private practices in addition to the free public service. Who knows, a good mix of both might be the best answer. However, trying to find good docs to work in the public system may become difficult.

Stay healthy in the mean time,

Dave

[Zeuk in Oz]

Canada is still grappling with whether or not to adopt a "two tiered system" allowing for private practices in addition to the free public service. Who knows, a good mix of both might be the best answer. However, trying to find good docs to work in the public system may become difficult.
Intrestingly enough, many of the best medicos in Oz work in both systems - they are attached to a large, public teaching hopsital plus they have a private practice often attached to a private hospital.

Their research etc is done in the public system and they make their money in the private system.

[attack eagle]

according to the documentary the US is the ONLY western country to NOT have UHC. We in the US can go to any hospital anywhere besides here, including France and Cuba and get as good of or better care than here...without insurance and not even being a citizen there and not walk out with a single bill...unless you count the 5¢ breather the lady needed that cost 120 here. King George can kiss my ass.

Well I have been treated in socialized universal health care systems, and I have to say I don't much care for it. The care you get in a hospital here far exceeds what passes for health care in MOST of the world's UHC hospitals. Not to mention that if you think the emergency room waits are long here now, wait until you experience the same kind of wait at every healthcare appointment. Nothing like making an 8am appointment on tuesday and being seen around thursday. When you subtract the cost of insurance from a doctor's salary they make a comfortable, but not fantastic living. Let's get that under control and perhaps we will see our cost of medical care decrease, and then our cost of insurace might decrease as well.

Oh, and I don't have healthcare insurance and I'm STILL against this idiocy.
Socialism is NEVER the answer.
TANSTAAFL is especially true here.

[ryan roopnarine]

as someone who has never seen the movie, and has no axe to grind, i'd say that canadians have absolutely no reason to complain about things up there. i complained when i lived up there, and it took a single emergency room visit (with insurance, mind you) to change my opinion. yeah, of course i can afford to give you my ins. card along with 430$ for the initial visit (in the event that they can't "verify" the validity of my policy). yes i have a primary doctor, but they don't have the resources to verify why i might be suddenly losing my vision, hence me being instructed by (their) staff to go to the er. they tell everyone that comes in with a non-critical injury that the service time will be approximately 8 hours. i later found out that this is the typical wait, year round. i used to bitch incessantly about a 3-4 hour round trip times in canada, but i guess you don't really know what you've got until it's gone. and please, please don't think that just because the hospital i went to was in bfe, that (they) have the resources typical of a hospital in bfe. doctors from this hospital are the ones on site at every space shuttle launch. if something were to happen to the shuttle on the pad (or they had to make an emergency landing), the astronauts would end up at this hospital. (it) is a rather major university/research hospital.

$700 out of my pocket (with insurance, mind you) to find out that i was likely having a painless migrane headache. and that was with me telling to doctor i saw that my vision loss was not typical of blindness (light blurring, not dark, impenetrable dot). yeah, i'm sure that my eye would have fallen out in canada.

[632 Regal]

what I found interesting was how the health companies are screwing every claim, this is a major issue! The co-pays and deductables are totally crazy and then they deny you and you end up having to pay the whole bill...sucks.

[attack eagle]

LOL, or you don't pay for it if you are smart and make them pay it like they should.

After socking 20-40k worth of costs (two children born) to the insurance company( CIGNA) in exchange for some 5-6k in premiums over the previous 5 years, I know a bit about the insurance thing. They send you a bill stating what was charged and what your deductable is.

Then you might or might not get a bill for something else depending on how it was coded in the billing system and by whom after all is said and done.
Sometimes they don't want to pay it because the way it was coded makes it appear like seperate procedures or multiple doctors or an out of network doctor. Sometimes they will accept your word for it and pay up, and sometimes you have to call the doc and explain the problem and the doctor's office will recode it so that it is within the specific guidelines your coverage includes.
I had to fight with them over a charge for a mandatory newborn hearing test on our firstborn that was performed in an approved hospital by the doctor on duty. He wasn't "in network" or preapproved, so they didn't want to pay. After 6 months they finally agreed that they would rather pay the hearing test and have us as an early release, instead of them paying an extra day of hospital stay, and that because it was a mandatory test required of all newborns and performed by hospital personnel that it should be covered.

they agreed to this after I called them every week for 6 months informing them that I wasn't going to pay CIGNA for it, and stated my reasons. They had already paid the hospital for it and were billing us retroactively for something that was a state requirement for our newborn's hospital release... and something that was covered under our policy according to section xxx paragraph yy on page zzz.
when we had our second one, there was NO problem, as they had fixed whatever the hell the problem was.


And yes I dropped em like a hot potato when they tried to up our premium to 8k a year with a 6k cumulative deductable before they would start to kick in 80%. That is literally a year's salary for most CSRs before they will pay anything at all. Might as well go bankrupt for the entire bill instead of for just just 12k+ of it :)

Insurance companies have this funny idea, that they are supposed to collect your premiums to pay their stockholders excellent dividends, and that if anything happens that is not your fault to cause a claim (like you get rear ended), that they should then raise your rates to make up for the claim... Hello! You should pay the same amount after a claim as before, because statistically the chances of the not at fault event happening twice are more remote than it happening the first time.

[Jon K]

WTF are you even on here for? you are completely useless for 99% of the people here, why even bother besides your greedy attention.

How am I completely useless? I now pay for health insurance - $50 bi weekly is fine with me for the service I get. Sounds like someone has some sort of complex...

[Jon K]

Move to Hong Kong. Universal health care, average 15% income tax, no sale tax, no property tax.

Downside is 100% tax on all cars.

And don't you see, that no matter where you get taxed, they make up for what breaks you get - honestly, it all catches up it's all about curb appeal. We have no sales tax in Deleware - sounds great - go buy a car there and the moment you go to register it whoooooops you owe sales tax.

[attack eagle]

TANSTAAFL

liberals need to have it tattoed to the insides of their eyelids.
Somebody HAS to pay... and the ones who pay are not the rich... it is the working poor. No matter how much you tax the rich... they can afford to move and be paid elsewhere, and be exempt from earing income in the US.

SO tax everyone at 11%.. the end.
I say we pass a flat tax, no tax breaks of any kind, and pass a law that the government can only spend 95% of the revenues with the other 5% saved to pay for responding to disasters/emergencies/hostilities.

Social Security... well it was originally supposed to be a personal pension plan where what you personally paid in you got back out, but that got shot down before it ever got enacted. It's not the republicans or democrats fault, it is just the way it had to be to be acceptable to people at the time who wanted immediate help for older citizens... not only being useful in 20-30 years when people finally had enough in it to retire on.
The boomer generation was the first one to get near replacement or replacement + 1 growth, and that trend has continued to the detriment of Soc. Sec. funding. Instead of 4-8 siblings and thus 4-8 working adults for every pensioner as it once was, now we have 2-3... and trending towards 2 or less. Alsdo life expectancy has greatly improved so pensioners are living adn drawing funds for much longer than anticipated...
The money has to come from somewhere, or there can't be any money to give. Are we going to gladly pay more ourselves via autorizing our reps to raise SS taxing rates for those who will retire overthe next 30-40 years knowing full well that it will probably be discontinued, and that in the end there really is only 20-30% of a decent pension to be had that way?
Or are we goign to pull the plug on it, and give back whatever people have contributed, tell them to put it in a private fund and have government wash its hands of the whole shebang...
neither solution is morally or politically acceptable... so nothing can or will be done about it.

[Jon K]

I still want to know wtf Jeff is talking about useless for 99% of people... not following.

[dacoyote]

I still want to know wtf Jeff is talking about useless for 99% of people... not following.

Dude,

Don't worry about Jeff says, I talk to him a lot and cannot figure out what he is saying some of the times. If I had to guess, I would assume it has to deal with your base of knowledge (turbo / nitrous) vs. general e34 knowledge.

-Charles

[Jon K]

Dude,

Don't worry about Jeff says, I talk to him a lot and cannot figure out what he is saying some of the times. If I had to guess, I would assume it has to deal with your base of knowledge (turbo / nitrous) vs. general e34 knowledge.

-Charles

Are you implying that you think he thinks my knowledge of the E34 is weak?

LOL @ that if so.

[Evan]

drop it...

[Jon K]

drop it...

It's just that I've never said or done anything to Regal I dunno whats up his ass.

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

I dunno whats up his ass.

Small woodland rodent?

[632 Regal]

Poop?


Small woodland rodent?

[Johntee540]

I have not seen the documentary but do know that Michael Moore conveniently forgot to mention all of the cases where people come to the US for treatment because of long waiting lists on surgeries that could mean the difference between life and death if not taken care of immediately.

I think people should also look at the idea of UHC from the standpoint of how well the government as spent all of the other money set aside such as Social Security, which is basically bankrupt now. There are many other areas in which money has been mismanaged that pretty much removes all trust I have in the government to give me whatever healthcare I need when I need it.

Call me a selfish SOB if you like, but I'd rather pay for my own personal health care instead of contributing to everyone's healthcare, particularly those who do not contribute to it. Anyway, thats my 2 cents


Maybe if you were to take a look at the film - which by the way has been recommended by FOX News of all people - you would understand that it chronicles how our Middle Class has been affected by the Health Insurance for Profit Industry in America today.

As far as UHC and paying for healthcare for the poor- you dont want to " pay for everyone's healthcare, Particularly those who dont contribute to it " - Let me ask you this. Who in the heck do you think is paying for the Healthcare for the poor today? You are; and I am; and Regal is through increased Insurance Premiums where the for profit Healtcare companies are able to recoup their losses. - JT

[Johntee540]

The problem with Moore's "documentaries" is that people take his word for truth without actually doing any further research, resulting in a whole bunch of people believing somthing that is not entirely true, or not true at all if that's the case. I think what it all boils down to is that when people watch these "documentaries" they only want to see one side of the story, take it as the absolute truth, then blast anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Think what you will about Moore - this particular Documentary has been vetted and fact checked for accuracy. He has passed with flying colors. And if you take into consideration that FOX News (not real big fans of MM) has recommended this movie to its viewers - tells me that it may have some veracity.

I am interested in hearing what the "other side of the story" is with regards to our "for Profit" healthcare system.......

I just want the same healthcare that enemy combatants in Guantanamo Bay get. - JT

[attack eagle]

I love the last line about these identical quads that were just born in Canada...

quote:
The Jepps drove 325 miles to Great Falls for the births because hospitals in Calgary were at capacity, Key said.

http://www.elpasotimes.com/nationworld/ci_6645454

You want to drive 325 miles while your wife is in labor because the hospitals are "full"? I guess it was either that or a manger, eh?

[timandbim]

i can't believe a hospital in calgary would have turned a woman+4/in labour away at the door... it must have been prearranged.
i've never been to a hospital in the u.s., so i can't compare, but here's a canadian first-hand experience...
i've had 5 mris and 3 operations in canada over the last 4 years. here you have a choice to either get a free mri at the hospital (back of the line, bud.... 6weeks to 6 months) or you can pay to have it done immediately at a private clinic for around $500, which is usually reimbursed 50-80% if you have private or group (work) healthcare. (i do, and i did) all 3 operations were successful (problem is i keep breaking myself) and didn't cost me a penny, although i did have a few sits in the waiting room. (and a free 5-day stay)
i have great respect for the american people, but in my opinion you could easily afford UHC if you stopped jailing potheads and buying laser-guided rockets. and the hospitals would have even smaller lineups if you'd just get rid of all the guns. (i guess that's easier said than done)
michael moore is very biased, it's true, but i think he hits some nails on the head that noone else is willing to hammer.

hope y'all will still help me with my new (used) car...

[attack eagle]

NO problem... I have to disagree about guns... If they ever make gun ownership illegal, I guess i'll be a criminal 7 or 8 times over...

Besides we need those laser guided rockets to protect Canada... :p

Hospitals in both countries would have FAR fewer patients than even banning guns if they would ban alcohol, automobiles, and cigarettes in that order...but I doubt even canada would ever try that. :D

[Morgenster]

The biggest reason for me not moving to the US to work or study there is healthcare. I'd easily be able to.

I wonder why there's people who can actually say (with a straight face) that they don't want to pay for someone else's healthcare. Not very brotherly love like.
I'm proud of paying taxes and thereby ensuring not just my own safety from medical calamities but also others.

Changing our system from the way it is to a privatised system would be reason enough for me to pack up and leave for Canada or France, I kid you not. Especially given that I have seen close-up many stories that would've ended horribly if the latter system was in place. From what I've seen from the movie, the kind of disasters it shows would simply be unimagineable here and I hope it stays that way.

But seriously, I see some of you saying that you don't want to pay or want to have a choice in it. How can you argue that this position is a) more efficient and b) not anti-social?

[Dave M]

I love the last line about these identical quads that were just born in Canada...

quote:
The Jepps drove 325 miles to Great Falls for the births because hospitals in Calgary were at capacity, Key said.

http://www.elpasotimes.com/nationworld/ci_6645454

You want to drive 325 miles while your wife is in labor because the hospitals are "full"? I guess it was either that or a manger, eh?

I agree with Tim.

"Hi, Calgary, we're on our way. Yeah, we're having quads. Whataya mean we should have called ahead? This is Canada right?"

Hope they can manage their kids better than the delivery ;)

Oh, and eagle, I agree with you as well. We appreciate your weaponry. Means we can spend more on health care :D

Dave M

[Jon K]

I don't understand what the issue is with healthcare. It's not free here, true. But if you're working for any company, or business, hell if you manage your own business, and or have a spouse who holds a job with a company, business, etc., its what, $200 a month for full family coverage? I am single, just got my first paycheck under the new job... $48 was deducted for my own personal Aetna plan. Yeah, $48 suchs, and thats $96 a month... but there are more people in this country that spend that on alcohol 10x over, and $96 is a reach? I mean sure $200 can be a pain, especially if you only make $20,000 a year or something to that effect, but if you're making little money you should have your priorities especially in order. I have paid more in highway toll fares than I have for my health care... I don't see the problem. If you're unemployed/underpaid I guess yea its an issue - so get a job. There's enough of them out there!

Free is awesome - but they don't give **** out for free without a "gotcha" somewhere. Yeah I am all about driving 300+ miles to deliver a child - its not like the lady and or all 4 children could have died..... right?

[Zeuk in Oz]

If you're unemployed/underpaid I guess yea its an issue - so get a job. There's enough of them out there!
I will forgive you these thoughts as you are only young and don't know better - I would love to see you re-visit these thoughts in 30 years time and see what you will think then.

If you have a psychiatric illness, are born with a severe debility, suffer a nasty injury that is nobody's fault, have to care for a debilitated or injured relative ..........

These are the sorts of people that might have difficulty getting a job. Don't they deserve their place in society ? Or did Hitler have the right idea ?

These are the people who deserve free health care and more, in my very much older, slightly more experienced, opinion.

Not everything can be black and white, and it is invariably the greys that slip through the cracks and need help.

After all, how we look after our unfortunate brothers and sisters is surely what defines how civilised we actually are.

Just imagine spending half the money being spent on the invasion of Iraq being spent to help those so unfortunate that they see no future for themselves.

[ryan roopnarine]

i'm sorry jon, but you are in a pretty privileged position if your health insurance cost is comparable to your highway toll expenditures. i don't even know where to begin about the $3k a year for family coverage idea.

http://meps.ahrq.gov/mepsweb/data_files/publications/st135/stat135.pdf

i don't think i know a single person (my age) that would be able to walk into BCBS and buy a policy for $96 a month if their employer didn't sponsor it, and i'm/we're nowhere near the point where a payout would be likely.

as for that article, that's the most idiotic thing i've read all day. the couple involved could have driven 170~200 miles MAX to the capital of the province, edmonton, alberta (pop 800k), with a rather large military presence/government/hospitals/whatnot available if they needed something special WRT the woman having 4 babies at the same time. they wanted something specific, and likely had already procured private medical insurance (for the states) to get it. it's not a nice thing to say, but they're lucky that lord darwin didn't have any objections to their plans. it is almost like some buffoon decided that the "300+" mileage figure was justification enough against universal healthcare.




I don't understand what the issue is with healthcare. It's not free here, true. But if you're working for any company, or business, hell if you manage your own business, and or have a spouse who holds a job with a company, business, etc., its what, $200 a month for full family coverage? I am single, just got my first paycheck under the new job... $48 was deducted for my own personal Aetna plan. Yeah, $48 suchs, and thats $96 a month... but there are more people in this country that spend that on alcohol 10x over, and $96 is a reach? I mean sure $200 can be a pain, especially if you only make $20,000 a year or something to that effect, but if you're making little money you should have your priorities especially in order. I have paid more in highway toll fares than I have for my health care... I don't see the problem. If you're unemployed/underpaid I guess yea its an issue - so get a job. There's enough of them out there!

Free is awesome - but they don't give **** out for free without a "gotcha" somewhere. Yeah I am all about driving 300+ miles to deliver a child - its not like the lady and or all 4 children could have died..... right?

[Jon K]

Don't get me wrong - I just got off a month of being on COBRA - I paid I think $600 for the month, it sucked, I was pissed, but I continued the job search and I found something. The thing is I think my point/concept is, your ability to afford your "life" essentially should not be government funded but rather you should invest yourself into it - I mean it's your life. No one is more responsible for your ability/inability to be well than you are. Excluding psychiatric conditions or instances rendering a person unable to live a normal life, I think the majority of the people "unable" to pay for life care are people who might have made poor investment decisions prior (I am using sensitive words here, and I mean no offense). And when I say investment, I do not mean exclusively monetarily. I have tons of friends working in factory-like conditions making $9/hr with BMWs and children. I am by no means saying this is a good thing, but I am saying people I know personally are doing it. It entails long hours, a working wife, and financially responsible, but it is happening.

The truth is people see "family healthcare" as unobtainable because their $20,000 salary can't bring it in. It seems these days its much assumed that the women of the household may not work and bring in money - some women like to, some don't, their/your call - but by having two working persons, whether blue or white collar minimum or maximum income levels, in a household you are multiplying your pot by two. I can see an instance whereas you may not be blessed with a 2 income household or hell even a spouse, and that's unfortunate (to some) but I mean these things are made to be impossible. The US is not killing their citizens. Its completely realistic that everyone who can work / qualify can afford care - it's a very safe assumption that the majority of the people who cannot afford it are with illness that requires above and beyond treatment and because I don't know enough about that, I cannot give voice one way or the other.

I am just tired of people, normal people, like you and me, sitting back and saying "F*@! health care" Yeah, I agree, I want my damned $96 a month, I do, seriously. But, in the grand scheme of things, what better thing do I have to spend $1200 a year on. Or rather, think about if you didn't have to spend $3,000 a year for family health insurance, what would you spend it on? Spare us the "food, shelter, clothes" non sense because we're not starving.

And moreover - driving 170 - 200 miles... what? She's in labor and she has to drive more than 5 miles!? Perhaps I am severely spoiled, or perhaps its my $96, but if I had to see my wife to deliver a baby, anything over 20 mins is unacceptable. I can't believe you said "Well the could have driven 200 miles..."

Insanity!?


I am not here to just disagree for the sake of disagreeing - I have friends who are currently in other countries for school and although the painted picture of NHS sounds great, 10 stitches in ones forehead after being jumped in London should not warrant 9 hrs of seat time WAITING. The guy has citizenship there, and it took 9 hrs for what would have been no big deal here. Its a one-off situation, I know, but it's something I've heard far too many stories of for me to want to hang that perfectly painted picture on my wall.

[ryan roopnarine]

1. that document shows that the average isn't $3k for a family, even in the cheapest state, it is about 6.4k with work sponsorship. 6.4k/20k is a big deal, keeping in mind that most jobs that pay 20k/yr aren't going to sponsor a family sized ( 1+ 2) health insurance plan.


2. the hospitals weren't "full" and everyone understands that. if she wanted something "special", she could have gotten it by driving 170 miles away v. 300. no hospital, anywhere, is too busy to deal with a woman in labor. the elective border crossing and likely 6 hour drive (i haven't seen a speed limit in canada that is higher than 100-110km/h) means that she had the time to "wait" to get to a situation more preferrable. as opposed, even, to having a police escort drive her to edmonton. she didn't drive all the way to montana because UHS security told her to get her "reagan lovin' behind" out of (their) hospital.

here's a topical example:

in the event that one of america's brave spacemen are injured before/after launch, they would likely end up at shands hospital, which is in gainesville, florida. in the event that one of them was decapitated, they'd end up at a local hospital. the city that the KSC visitor's complex is in is one "orsino" florida. 160 miles away, if you were driving (i'm sure that they would get a helicopter ride at that point)

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&rmm=1&un=m&cl=EN&qq=m4ZeC4eEaUhE%252bIRLsEKubcMwU%252bpbQNqGDw6TwvT Ai30JRwvKfxYK3nTIzTunnQOvFFMwlH3EOPD%252fTmFcyhtsC Zqr%252b3FElvx%252bjTNPliQyjl5aR%252fbfezV4BaaS2aU loJNjE%252fp9Ny5fyIpewUysF%252fdY3w0zAX396jhl0QAug h5O1Q1bs%252fH0VNmG5pFk2qPMKXxD&ct=NA&rsres=1&1y=US&1ffi=&1l=zsK8WUOt8HCkYEUkO6JsEw%253d%253d&1g=D68qcgDYFDj%252f7%252bBx%252flqcZg%253d%253d&1pl=&1v=CITY&1n=&1pn=&1a=&1c=Orsino&1s=FL&1z=&2y=US&2ffi=&2l=&2g=&2pl=&2v=&2n=&2pn=&2a=3415+sw+39th+blvd&2c=gainesville&2s=fl&2z=32608&panelbtn=2

there are at least 10 major hospitals along the flightpath to gainesville. yet, they would end up here, in the the middle of bfe, 'cause they wanted something special. i doubt that arrangement is because the other hospitals along the way are diametrically opposed to NASA and its aims, or because they are too incompetent to deal with run of the mill medical emergencies.

[repenttokyo]

obstetrics is a really, really bad example to use for overloaded hospital care. I've worked in obstetrics, and while I am in a hotel room in Minneapolis right now, if anyone is interested I can fill you in about why obstetrics wards are overloaded and how hospitals in the US now have to self-insure if they carry an obstetrics ward.

[Jon K]

Ryan you hit the nail on the head - if its more than $3,000 (I wouldn't know, I don't have to raise a family) then it is what it is - there are many reasons for the costs and what not. However, like I said why would a 1 + 2 insurance be required with a $20k/year income? Why is a family depending on a single $20,000 allotment? I could charge $5,000 to my credit card without being able to actually afford it. I could go on a crazy cocaine craze for a month borrowing from landsharks knowing I can't pay it back. I could pop out babies with women non stop knowing I can't support them. But I don't do any of these things. I personally feel that the majority of americans who cannot afford to get "proper" care are ones who very well could have had it if they didn't make decisions they did. It wasn't like they hit 18 and SURPRISE YOU NEED MONEY! I mean what the hell - every boys aspiration is that posted with a 10 car garage full of Ferrari and Lamborghini, but even when I was 10 I knew it took hard work to get anything. I am not trying to sound insensitive, etc., but seriously, am I supposed to include the 21 year olds with 5 children and minimum wage, no schooling, multiple past "partners" and no obvious concern for their or their childrens future into consideration? No, they are not to be excluded from society and I am in firm belief that before the government comes our creator's decision as to how we live, but seriously isn't there a flaw there? You cannot support two children, a wife and a child, or any combination of dependents on $20,000 - don't do it! If you are trying your hardest and your wife and you want to have kids but you only make $20,000 a year, get the wife to get a job - if she doesn't want to work, then she obviously doesn't value a family enough...$40,000 is 2x $20,000. And $40,000 should be able to support any family with a normal lifestyle...

So where is the flaw? Other countries can cross health insurance off on their "thing to pay for" list, and watching the movie only made it more evident to me based on the doctor with the Audi and big money apartment and all his dreams true, that they take it for granted. "Well its sad to see the US has to pay.." yeah it'd be great to have free healthcare, hell it'd be great to have free college but how much is something worth to you if you don't know what it costs? I know it sounds ridiculous - but a life is worth a little more than $3,000... or $6,000 - if I was told that I had to raise $20,000 buy the end of the year or I would fall of the face of the earth, would I argue and say "Yeah but in Europe someone pays that for them." Screw Europe, you're here - don't like it, leave. We could give free healthcare to all of our citizens, but let's take away their freedom - but you can have the freedom back, for $3000 a year, deal? If what our country offers a person is not enough to outweigh the inability to pay for a persons health insurance, then maybe its time that person look for another home?

I don't want to seem argumentative, I just want to express my side of the equation - a person can't afford health insurance for themselves because they can't land a good enough job to support their lifestyle - that says to me they didn't work hard enough in school or are lazy afterward and expected some miracle entity to come support their lifestyle. A person can't afford family health insurance for their wife* and kids says to me that the person shouldn't have started a family when they did, I support life, but use your judgment it's not hard - if you can't afford $2k you sure as hell can't afford $5k.

I guess I am not very sympathetic only because I have been raised mostly by my mother, a high school graduate with no college degree who worked hard and did everything she could to make herself able to afford her lifestyle and family (not to say my step father isn't as supportive, but my mother was widowed and could have really fell on her ass for a long while) - a lot of my friends are shocked to find my mother never went to college and makes what she does - there is no substitution for hard work and the value of a person who is determined to do something and if they can't, they find out how. A lot of people I know, as a recent graduate, are like "WTF I have my degree, where are all the jobs at?!" NEWSFLASH - your graduating doesn't mean **** unless you are able and willing to work hard. I hold a degree in MIS it took me 3 months to find a "good" job - and I have a good work ethic and am very talented in what I do! I couldn't afford to work during school because of distances to things worth working at, so I built ECUs for money during free time - no one taught me how to do that, I was tired of being broke and I figured something out, I broke no records here. I can only imagine how challenging it is for people less fortunate! But just because people are a citizen of this country or hold a degree should not lead them to think they're "entitled" to something. If you want to offer your citizens a free service, everyone knows its being paid for elsewhere. There's no check box on the "Start a Government" form that says "Make everything free" for if there were we'd all be doing it!

[repenttokyo]

some people believe in a social safety net that allows for all people to be taken care of, regardless of their job status, education or financial position. Again, a really big societal difference between americans and canadians,

no one is going to change anyone's fundamental beliefs here - but it is interesting, i suppose, to illustrate them.

[Elekta]

no one is going to be able to take away choice from people who seek it.

The industry is reacting to it currently what with RateMds.com, generic drug availability. When the consumer has choice, the provider has to compete and the system weeds out the weak and in the overall, improves. RateMds is actually doing the job better on the front end then say like snake oil salesman and doctor suer John Edwards on the personal injury back end. It's a croc to make the lack of universal health coverage argument when so many millions that have no coverage at all are still getting adequate or full health care from hospitals for free. If you think the wait is long when you are in the emrgency room for a flu script or shot, think how long it will be when the gov't is running the hospitality. Remember that bureaucracy is static, pursues the status quo, slow to change, rare to ever shrink...and all those elements create the worst efficiency and weakest return on investment or quality of outcome in any working model. Can you imagine the equity of Personal Savings Accounts over Social Security if the competition were allowed? It's insanity.

If you are unable to have choice as even an option, because of your financial capability whether real or imagined, then you should move to where you are comfortable with others making your choices for you. It won't fly to try to bring everyone down to your level, because there's too many that can find the better alternative. It didn't work with dumming down in education, grade inflation and 100% valedictorians. It doesn't work with single payer in health insurance. And it definately doesn't work in socialized health care. If it did, then we'd all move to canada for the best medical care. No one is ferrying across a great lake to get a cavity filled, a tumor removed, or a wellness checkup. People move to nanny states/countries because they are unable or unwilling. Just look at the border between NY and VT and Canada. Zig zag across all three for a couple of days and see for yourself. Bottom line there are more that are willing to work harder, and are resourceful enough to not give in to the entitlement mentality.

Nothing like a little free enterprise to lift the spirit. The glass is always half full people