wierd times with the engine build

[jjdickm]

So I built the engine and everything was rotating beautifully. I leave it for a couple days and come back to work on it. I put all the stuff on it(front timing cover and chains, oil pan rear seal flywheel and im going to put the torque converter on and it doesn't rotate I slowly tear it back down and try to rotate as I take off parts. I take it all off and now its just the crank and the pistons and con rods. I loosen the con rods and it starts to rotate again. I tighten it all down again and it rotates like it did before????? just don't know what happenened.

[Bin_jammin]

For starters, why are you putting the torque converter on now? You're not seriously going to try and put the torque converter onto the flywheel and slide the transmission into place are you?

[jjdickm]

is that bad? I found it much easier to put the torque converter on when the oil pan is off. but besides that does anyone have a opinion as to why its binding?

[jjdickm]

plus just so you know the transmission has been dropped and is not in the car right now.

[winfred]

you WILL destroy the tranny trying to draw it up to the engine with the converter bolted to the engine first, it's a bit of a pain sometimes installing the converter into the tranny with it sitting on the bench, theres too many things that need to spline together to get it right in one shot, as for your engine locking up id be looking at the rod bearings if that's where it started moving again, you may have one out of place

[jjdickm]

So I should assemble the whole thing on the bench first?

[jjdickm]

Or should the tranny be in the car and have the torque converter on it then put the engine on it?

[winfred]

the converter needs to be all of the way in the tranny before it's bolted to the engine, the little snout that sticks into the crank will be about flush with the bellhousing when you look at it from the side, it doesn't really matter how it gets into the car, it's easier to get the engine in without the tranny attached but harder to install the tranny, i generally bolt them together then stab the whole thing (unless it's a e36 with a 6 cylinder and then it won't fit, 525/535 will go in together) if you can't get the engine and tranny fitted together stop and figure out why, i've seen dozens of trannys destroyed by people getting them close enough to get a bolt in and pulling them together, it boogers up the drive dogs on the converter and crushes the pump, you are lucks if that's all that gets hurt

[jjdickm]

thanks for your help. I will take a look at rod bearings tomorrow. The are brand new im not sure what the issue would be. I will plastigauge them.

[Bin_jammin]

you WILL destroy the tranny trying to draw it up to the engine with the converter bolted to the engine first, it's a bit of a pain sometimes installing the converter into the tranny with it sitting on the bench, theres too many things that need to spline together to get it right in one shot, as for your engine locking up id be looking at the rod bearings if that's where it started moving again, you may have one out of place

+10

Don't ruin your transmission (or any other parts) trying to 1/2 ass it by cutting corners. I don't know if you have access to a lift, but it's super easy to install a tranny from below. It's not too bad putting the engine and tranny into the car at the same time if you have a lift, that's the easiest way. I have a cart set up just for putting engine/tranny into the car together from underneath. If you're using a crane to put it in from above, make sure you have whatever jack stands or ramps you're using high enough to clear the tail shaft when it goes in. You may find it super easy to install if you remove the crossmember and suspension arm first, I know I did.

Seriously though, if you've already tried to install your transmission onto your torque converter, you're probably looking at a trashed tranny.

[Ferret]

thanks for your help. I will take a look at rod bearings tomorrow. The are brand new im not sure what the issue would be. I will plastigauge them.

One of the rods hasnt suffered a minor trauma or something has it?

IE one of the end caps is slightly out of round?

[jjdickm]

that transmission hasn't touched the engine yet I was just going to put the engine in after I got this stuff figured out. thanks for the help.

[Bin_jammin]

that transmission hasn't touched the engine yet I was just going to put the engine in after I got this stuff figured out. thanks for the help.

No sweat. Where are you located? If you're anywhere nearby I'll come give you a hand.

[E34-520iSE]

So I built the engine and everything was rotating beautifully. I leave it for a couple days and come back to work on it. I put all the stuff on it(front timing cover and chains, oil pan rear seal flywheel and im going to put the torque converter on and it doesn't rotate I slowly tear it back down and try to rotate as I take off parts. I take it all off and now its just the crank and the pistons and con rods. I loosen the con rods and it starts to rotate again. I tighten it all down again and it rotates like it did before????? just don't know what happenened.

Use assembly lubricant on the journals.

HTH,
Shaun M

[jjdickm]

im over in phoenix az, where are you at?

[632 Regal]

what oil did you lube the bearings with? Anything thicker than 50wt can cause binding.

[jjdickm]

it was a motor assembly grease. should I just use a motor oil?

[632 Regal]

yep thats your problem 100% I saw someone do this before. Plain old motor oil is key. Another person used the starter to turn it over after a rebuild and it spun 2 crank bearings before the oil washed the grease away. Lucky you caught it now!!!


it was a motor assembly grease. should I just use a motor oil?

[Bin_jammin]

yep thats your problem 100% I saw someone do this before. Plain old motor oil is key. Another person used the starter to turn it over after a rebuild and it spun 2 crank bearings before the oil washed the grease away. Lucky you caught it now!!!

DO NOT listen to this advice.

Use a quality assembly lube, just as you are doing. Pack your oil pump with it also, follow the instructions. Motor oil will not adhere to bearings on start up like an assembly lube will, that's why it's called "assembly lube". While I'm sure he's seen an engine fail on assembly, and the builder used the grease, where's the correlation?

Seriously, did the person prime the engine before they started it, or just crank it over and fire it? Did they pack the pump to insure it would get pressure?

Cranking the engine with the ignition and fuel disabled will allow the pump to work oil into the engine, and allow all the bearings to be pressurized. When your engine finally gets assembled and put into the car, crank the engine with no spark plugs in it until the oil light goes out, keep cranking for a few seconds more then let the motor sit. Allow enough time for oil to drain back into the pan, say 20-30 seconds, then do it again, then a third time. Assuming your oil light functions properly you've successfully primed the engine at that point and are ready for running.

Do not listen to anecdotal evidence and allow it to make poor decisions for you. Of course, you don't have to listen to me, call a few local engine builders and ask them, I'm sure they'll be willing to share good advice. Hell, if they say I'm wrong let me know.

[winfred]

:D


Another person used the starter to turn it over after a rebuild and it spun 2 crank bearings before the oil washed the grease away.





Cranking the engine with the ignition and fuel disabled will allow the pump to work oil into the engine, and allow all the bearings to be pressurized.

[632 Regal]

assembly lube is for camshaft lobes, lifters and rockers that have extreme pressures upon initial startup. Use the grease on the bearings and in the pump is plain crazy!!! probably wont spin either :D


DO NOT listen to this advice.

Use a quality assembly lube, just as you are doing. Pack your oil pump with it also, follow the instructions. Motor oil will not adhere to bearings on start up like an assembly lube will, that's why it's called "assembly lube". While I'm sure he's seen an engine fail on assembly, and the builder used the grease, where's the correlation?

[jjdickm]

winfred any advice? I was told to use the assembly lube to do this but im not an expert.

[bsell]

DO NOT listen to this advice.

Use a quality assembly lube, just as you are doing. Pack your oil pump with it also, follow the instructions. Motor oil will not adhere to bearings on start up like an assembly lube will, that's why it's called "assembly lube". While I'm sure he's seen an engine fail on assembly, and the builder used the grease, where's the correlation?

Correlation:

If you get that very slippery assembly lube on the backside of the bearings, they will spin in the journal due to the lube breaking the 'traction' created when the bearing caps are torqued. That is why it is very critical to have the journals and backs of the bearings absolutely clean and dry prior to bearing insertion.

The spun bearings on start-up can happen with clean surfaces if the bearing clearances aren't right. The bearings are supposed to be just a little bit bigger than the journal they sit in so they squeeze into the journal snugly. Get the dimensions wrong, and you can have too little 'compression' into the journal causing bearing spin. Too much compression causes the bearings to 'bow' at the junctions and wear prematurely.

I hope that all makes sense,

Brian

[bsell]

assembly lube is for camshaft lobes, lifters and rockers that have extreme pressures upon initial startup. Use the grease on the bearings and in the pump is plain crazy!!! probably wont spin either :D

I agree that you should use a specific assembly lube to meet the demands involved. Using something overly sticky can cause problems.

Think about how many times you turn the crank during assembly. Everytime you turn that beast, you are doing so without the benefit of oil cushioning the bearings to rods/crank journals. Using the right lube can make your build damage-free. Failing to lube as you build can severely shorten the life of your engine.

The idea of packing the pump is you are 'priming' the pump (and also lubricating it) for the initial spin up of the oiling system. Some engines allow running the oil pump with a drill to build oil pressure just prior to the first start. Others require and external oiling system to build pressure prior to starting.

Brian

[winfred]

i build all of my engines with oil, occaisionally ill use something like royal purple assembly lube if i have some, it's not grease though, it's more like a synthetic 30 weight if i had to guess what it really is


winfred any advice? I was told to use the assembly lube to do this but im not an expert.

[Bin_jammin]

Correlation:

If you get that very slippery assembly lube on the backside of the bearings, they will spin in the journal due to the lube breaking the 'traction' created when the bearing caps are torqued. That is why it is very critical to have the journals and backs of the bearings absolutely clean and dry prior to bearing insertion.

The spun bearings on start-up can happen with clean surfaces if the bearing clearances aren't right. The bearings are supposed to be just a little bit bigger than the journal they sit in so they squeeze into the journal snugly. Get the dimensions wrong, and you can have too little 'compression' into the journal causing bearing spin. Too much compression causes the bearings to 'bow' at the junctions and wear prematurely.

I hope that all makes sense,

Brian

Not true. If you've built the engine properly, oil on the backside of the bearing will not cause it to spin, because there's nothing to cause rotation on the bearing. There should be no bearing to crankshaft contact, that's what you're assuring with the plastigauge. If there were contact enough to spin a bearing, you would have binding when assembling the bottom end. Also, there are tabs on the bearings to keep them locked in place in the rod or in the block. Google engine bearings, you'll see them in the pics. How many people here have actually assembled an engine? More than one? More than ten?

Please, if you don't do this as more than a hobby, stop giving advice on it. I've been a mechanic for 14 years, I've assembled or repaired dozens and dozens of engines in my time. I'm lucky in that I love cars so much I'm able to still be passionate about them, but hearing and seeing bad advice about
putting expensive parts together really burns me. Seriously, don't take my word for it, spend ten minutes on your lunch break tomorrow and call a couple engine shops. See what they have to say. Or hell, you could take a gamble on some truly bad advice, after all, engine parts are cheap.

Do you think assembly lube is a joke? That it's like an oil additive that's not necessary? I'm sorry if it seems like I'm ranting, but if you've never put an engine together before and it blows up on your first try, I wouldn't feel right if I didn't try to correct misinformation.

[632 Regal]

i've never built an engine...*hint* user name.


Not true. If you've built the engine properly, oil on the backside of the bearing will not cause it to spin, because there's nothing to cause rotation on the bearing. There should be no bearing to crankshaft contact, that's what you're assuring with the plastigauge. If there were contact enough to spin a bearing, you would have binding when assembling the bottom end. Also, there are tabs on the bearings to keep them locked in place in the rod or in the block. Google engine bearings, you'll see them in the pics. How many people here have actually assembled an engine? More than one? More than ten?

Please, if you don't do this as more than a hobby, stop giving advice on it. I've been a mechanic for 14 years, I've assembled or repaired dozens and dozens of engines in my time. I'm lucky in that I love cars so much I'm able to still be passionate about them, but hearing and seeing bad advice about
putting expensive parts together really burns me. Seriously, don't take my word for it, spend ten minutes on your lunch break tomorrow and call a couple engine shops. See what they have to say. Or hell, you could take a gamble on some truly bad advice, after all, engine parts are cheap.

Do you think assembly lube is a joke? That it's like an oil additive that's not necessary? I'm sorry if it seems like I'm ranting, but if you've never put an engine together before and it blows up on your first try, I wouldn't feel right if I didn't try to correct misinformation.

[Bin_jammin]

assembly lube is for camshaft lobes, lifters and rockers that have extreme pressures upon initial startup. Use the grease on the bearings and in the pump is plain crazy!!! probably wont spin either :D

Sorry, I just read this again. Do you not know how hydraulics work? PSI is equal at all points in a hydraulic system. You're not going to have high pressure or low pressure in an engine, it's all going to be getting what the pump is putting out.

[Bin_jammin]

i've never built an engine...*hint* user name.

So you've built what? An engine or two? Nothing personal man, I really don't like attacking people, but congratulations on not blowing it up.

From what you've been saying so far, I'm sure I'd have a heart attack after you tell me all about how you don't need to prime an engine before starting, and your uncle that builds SBC circle track engines swears that vegetable oil works awesome for break-in. It's not so bad these days, now that GM rear drivers are dead, but for a time there wasn't a day that didn't go by that I didn't hear from every backyard expert about production numbers, and horsepower numbers, and part numbers. About the secret big block monte carlo that GM accidentally made only 50 of and gave out to the public, or about how someone's cousin owned a crossfire camaro that had a factory 350 in it that made 400 horsepower.

What the hell do I know, I don't earn my living doing it or anything. I don't have other people calling me when they dick things up because they knew better, until they had to call me.

Don't worry though, I don't hold a grude, I do great work, I've got a ridiculously low comeback rate so when I fix something it stays fixed, and when the time comes, you can call me too.

[jjdickm]

big jammin where do you live? are you in az? I will go with the assembly lube at this point. I will check the bearings hopefully soon I appreciate all the help.

[winfred]

i don't beleave he's talking about oil pressure but the friction between the spring loaded valve train components


Sorry, I just read this again. Do you not know how hydraulics work? PSI is equal at all points in a hydraulic system. You're not going to have high pressure or low pressure in an engine, it's all going to be getting what the pump is putting out.

[632 Regal]

sorry for my inexperience but I want to witness your grease in the oil pump on a BMW engine, would also like to look at the cam journals after oil cant get to them for many minutes cause the oil cant get there cause the grease clogged the oil passages. Either Im just stupid or you are, maybe Im reading your grease function wrong or your talking from your ass. I have rarely fired an engine without pre pressurizing the oil pumps for safety margin but to pack the pump with grease??? stupid since the submerged pump gets primed from gravity on these engines.

I have personally built over 20 engines and about 15 were drag race engines without a single failure or scuffed anything at startup.

anyways maybe im reading it all wrong.


So you've built what? An engine or two? Nothing personal man, I really don't like attacking people, but congratulations on not blowing it up.

[Bin_jammin]

sorry for my inexperience but I want to witness your grease in the oil pump on a BMW engine, would also like to look at the cam journals after oil cant get to them for many minutes cause the oil cant get there cause the grease clogged the oil passages. Either Im just stupid or you are, maybe Im reading your grease function wrong or your talking from your ass. I have rarely fired an engine without pre pressurizing the oil pumps for safety margin but to pack the pump with grease??? stupid since the submerged pump gets primed from gravity on these engines.

I have personally built over 20 engines and about 15 were drag race engines without a single failure or scuffed anything at startup.

anyways maybe im reading it all wrong.


Ok, let me explain in further detail:

You disassemble the oil pump and pack the rotors with assembly lube or vaseline. Being petroleum products, they pretty dissolve in oil almost instantly (assuming you're using petroleum base oil, I'm sure it'll work with synthetic, or there's synthetic assembly lube) If you're unsure of what I mean for how to pack the pump, let me know, I'll find my old pump and try to take some pics.

The reason for this is that when you crank the engine the grease or lube you're using will get pumped just like oil. Yes, it's thicker than oil, but you can't compress a liquid, and grease is just a really thick liquid. When the rotors start spinning to pump the oil, this will allow the pump to suck up more oil faster, because it's already been primed. So now we've started to crank the engine over (with ignition and fuel disabled and plugs out) and the pump is pumping, what happens to the grease? It gets pumped into the various parts of the engine, through the rods, the mains, the wrist pins, the valvetrain... everywhere!

Oh Noes!

Not really. It's a small amount of grease really. If you took the amount that you've spread through all your bearings, the cam lobes, the oil pump... everywhere, it wouldn't really amount to much, and here's the important thing: It's still lubricating the engine!

But here's the best part! It sticks to bearing surfaces until the oil washes it off! So you have continued lubrication from the first rpm of cranking the engine over, until the pump sucks oil from the sump and starts working it through the engine. Assuming everything was assembled correctly, you should have oil pressure within 10-12 seconds of cranking the engine. Even at the valvetrain.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the reason you're mentioning oil starvation on cam journals being caused by your not packing the oil pump on your engines. When an engine turns it's basically two pumps working on the same system. You're pumping air and fuel through it, but you're also pumping oil through it. I don't know how often you work on hydraulics, but grease in a tube stacked against 40psi oil pressure doesn't even remotely stand a chance. It doesn't slow the oil down, it doesn't hold the oil back, it doesn't starve out bearings. What it does is get pumped through the engine just like the liquid it is, where it eventually flows back into the sump and dissolves into the oil. It doesn't clog the pickup because it's a liquid, it just gets sucked back into the pump and makes the loop again. This doesn't take very long at all, all the grease should be fully dissolved within a few rpm.


Now, reading the submerged pump primed by gravity thing... Huh? I'm assuming you're talking about something along the lines of a siphon, where the oil will be sucked into the pump because the level of the sump pickup is below the level of oil in the sump? Well, I'll address that as simply as I can. Yes, it will work as a siphon, because that's how sumps work, but if you don't have any oil in the oil pump to begin with, you're using air pressure to pull the oil into the pump. Here's how that works: pump spins rotors inside, rotors compress air in the pump, and pump air to the bearings. As the pump spins it pulls more air in, and does the same thing over and over, until it's pumped enough air out of the pickup tube to create a vacuum inside, and this vacuum draws oil in from the sump. Now, judging from what you're describing, I need to explain to you that you do NOT want your engine being primed with air. Air in your bearings is BAD, oil in your bearings is GOOD. You can quote me on that.

This is really REALLY basic engine building here people, this is stuff that should be in the manual for god's sake. Any more questions, let me have them, I'll keep giving the facts. You can google around and double check them. Sorry for the late reply BTW. I'm stuck babysitting the dealership today while my boss is at the auction, I'm running around trying to cover the shop and the dealership.

[winfred]

small world me too, but with less running and more sitting at the computer ****ing off, hoping the boss doesn't buy anything too stupid, i herd something about a 84 rustang :(


I'm stuck babysitting the dealership today while my boss is at the auction, I'm running around trying to cover the shop and the dealership.

[Bin_jammin]

small world me too, but with less running and more sitting at the computer ****ing off, hoping the boss doesn't buy anything too stupid, i herd something about a 84 rustang :(


Sucks to be you man, my boss is talking about a pair of e39's!

Me for the win! I'm trying to convince him that for the money we'll get into a pair of e39s we can have two e36s and an e39, but he doesn't want to listen. He's already got one of the e39s sold. We just got rid of the one we had here, a 2000 charcoal greyish 528i sport. I liked that thing, but not enough power, coupled with a horrible homemade cat back exhaust system that just BOOOOOOOOMs down the highway. Yeesh... some kid that's like 20 bought it, he's psyched to have a BMW, I'd walk him in my e34 :)

[winfred]

i can sell every e39 i can get my hands on right now and am fresh out, been moving a **** load of double vanos sports, probably 5 or 6 in the last couple months plus a couple single vanos cars, thought we get another oo sport by way of a melted head customer car but she wants to fix it, so i get to give head to it next week

[Bin_jammin]

You and be both, I'm dying to see what he brings back. Your boss isn't at Adessa in Framingham is he?

[winfred]

no, just down the street at the local dealer/donation dumping place, pretty much every dealer in the area flushes their trade in's through oak view, plus all of the areas donation cars/trucks/boats/atvs.....lotsa good stuff and usually theres nothing wrong with it, bank forclosures go through there too


You and be both, I'm dying to see what he brings back. Your boss isn't at Adessa in Framingham is he?

[Bin_jammin]

no, just down the street at the local dealer/donation dumping place, pretty much every dealer in the area flushes their trade in's through oak view, plus all of the areas donation cars/trucks/boats/atvs.....lotsa good stuff and usually theres nothing wrong with it, bank forclosures go through there too

Yeah, we've got one of them around here too, been trying to move more upmarket with the cars we buy in, especially since we got floorplanned. Having money on hand to buy any damn car we please is pretty nice.

The best part is that we don't have to deal with cars like *AHEM* American cars anymore. I think we've got maybe 3 American cars on the lot now, out of 30 or so, and none more than 5 years old. Thank god I don't have to deal with Ford Contours or Chrysler LHSs anymore ;)

[winfred]

yea we are still small time and just park one or two out by the mailbox :D, all we do is bmw and volvos and usually to a sellect group of customers with the occaisional walk in buyer

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

Grease packed pump old trick, 215 buick/rover will not suck oil without it,grease lubricates until oil arrives, one of my engines has grease nipple on pump to charge it as pump needs lubricant PDQ, it works a treat if you leave the engine for a month,Some Cossy dry sump engines have clutch on pump pulley to allow drill to spin up pump without removing belt.

[bsell]

Not true. If you've built the engine properly, oil on the backside of the bearing will not cause it to spin, because there's nothing to cause rotation on the bearing. There should be no bearing to crankshaft contact, that's what you're assuring with the plastigauge. If there were contact enough to spin a bearing, you would have binding when assembling the bottom end. Also, there are tabs on the bearings to keep them locked in place in the rod or in the block. Google engine bearings, you'll see them in the pics. How many people here have actually assembled an engine? More than one? More than ten?

Please, if you don't do this as more than a hobby, stop giving advice on it. I've been a mechanic for 14 years, I've assembled or repaired dozens and dozens of engines in my time. I'm lucky in that I love cars so much I'm able to still be passionate about them, but hearing and seeing bad advice about
putting expensive parts together really burns me. Seriously, don't take my word for it, spend ten minutes on your lunch break tomorrow and call a couple engine shops. See what they have to say. Or hell, you could take a gamble on some truly bad advice, after all, engine parts are cheap.

Do you think assembly lube is a joke? That it's like an oil additive that's not necessary? I'm sorry if it seems like I'm ranting, but if you've never put an engine together before and it blows up on your first try, I wouldn't feel right if I didn't try to correct misinformation.

As far as the not true portion above, when I went through the engine classes (to get my AAS in Auto Technology) and passed my ASE Master Auto technician tests, and graduated from three different car makers' engine classes; they all emphasized 'cleanliness is next to Godliness' when assembling engines to include the backside of the bearings.

I'm not addressing your second paragraph because I'm a nice guy.

I figure you are writing to somebody else about the assembly lube as I am on your side about using that as proven protection for your hard-earned $$$.

I really don't mean to throw around experience or degress and whatnot. All I can say is I've seen bearings ruined from spinning and having trash under them.

I will agree that anybody looking for advice on building engines in this kind of setting is putting some hefty confidence in the wrong area. In other words, they would be better off letting a professional do the work.

Brian

[bsell]

Grease packed pump old trick, 215 buick/rover will not suck oil without it,grease lubricates until oil arrives, one of my engines has grease nipple on pump to charge it as pump needs lubricant PDQ, it works a treat if you leave the engine for a month,Some Cossy dry sump engines have clutch on pump pulley to allow drill to spin up pump without removing belt.

For the folks concerned about massive quantities of grease or vasaline clogging the works, think about how much stuff you can actually pack into a pump vs. how many miles (sic) of oil passageways there are.

I guess if you tried hard enough, you might could actually inject enough grease or vasaline into all of the oil passageways to clog the oil filter. But then you would have to be a man on a mission to get that done.

Brian

[Bin_jammin]

As far as the not true portion above, when I went through the engine classes (to get my AAS in Auto Technology) and passed my ASE Master Auto technician tests, and graduated from three different car makers' engine classes; they all emphasized 'cleanliness is next to Godliness' when assembling engines to include the backside of the bearings.

Sorry, I was talking about oil being a problem on the backside of the bearing causing the bearing to spin. Obviously all engine parts should be clean of any and all debris before assembly. Sorry for the confusion.


I'm not addressing your second paragraph because I'm a nice guy.

Me too, that's why I'm taking the time to make sure this guy's engine goes together and stays that way. I'd really be sick to my stomach thinking about him taking bad advice to heart and blowing an engine. I'd be willing to bet it would turn him off from the hobby for a long time. He'd probably even ditch his car for something reliable at that point. *shudder*



I figure you are writing to somebody else about the assembly lube as I am on your side about using that as proven protection for your hard-earned $$$.

Amen.


I really don't mean to throw around experience or degress and whatnot. All I can say is I've seen bearings ruined from spinning and having trash under them.

See above, apology for confusion offered.


I will agree that anybody looking for advice on building engines in this kind of setting is putting some hefty confidence in the wrong area. In other words, they would be better off letting a professional do the work.

Brian

There you have it folks, when it doubt, ask a pro. (I don't mean me, I mean call a rebuilder and ask them)

***EDIT***
Edited to show quotes, because I suck at the quoting.

[Bin_jammin]

For the folks concerned about massive quantities of grease or vasaline clogging the works, think about how much stuff you can actually pack into a pump vs. how many miles (sic) of oil passageways there are.

I guess if you tried hard enough, you might could actually inject enough grease or vasaline into all of the oil passageways to clog the oil filter. But then you would have to be a man on a mission to get that done.

Brian

Actually, even if you packed the filter with grease, screwed a zerk fitting into an oil passage and pumped vaseline into every possible oil passage, and filled the pump with vaseline too, it would still pump. Vaseline and grease are still liquids, and as such are not exempt from the laws of physics. You can't compress a liquid, therefor when you pump it it will flow. It's nowhere near thick enough to lock up an oil pump, so it will just push the lube out and either into the oil galleys in the head or back into the sump. Now when you mix vaseline into oil, it just dissolves, so even with an engine PACKED with grease in every hole, the oil mixing with the grease will just dissolve the grease, and all will be well. If you want to try a science experiment, put a daub of grease into some oil and stir it a little bit.

[winfred]

in that position it would either blow most of the oil pressure back into the pan from the bypass or blow the seal on the oil filter depending on the design, it would probably move it through the system


Actually, even if you packed the filter with grease, screwed a zerk fitting into an oil passage and pumped vaseline into every possible oil passage, and filled the pump with vaseline too, it would still pump. Vaseline and grease are still liquids, and as such are not exempt from the laws of physics. You can't compress a liquid, therefor when you pump it it will flow. It's nowhere near thick enough to lock up an oil pump, so it will just push the lube out and either into the oil galleys in the head or back into the sump. Now when you mix vaseline into oil, it just dissolves, so even with an engine PACKED with grease in every hole, the oil mixing with the grease will just dissolve the grease, and all will be well. If you want to try a science experiment, put a daub of grease into some oil and stir it a little bit.

[Bin_jammin]

in that position it would either blow most of the oil pressure back into the pan from the bypass or blow the seal on the oil filter depending on the design, it would probably move it through the system

Uhm, why? The pump isn't putting out any higher pressure pumping grease or oil.
It's hydraulic pressure, so the pressure will be uniform on every surface inside the engine.

[winfred]

it's moving oil that can't get out of the way with all of the crap packed in front of it, it may be fine but if the releaf valve can't pass enough volumn the oil has to go somewhere till the chuck-a-block full of grease (not sure why you'd do that) oiling system clears out

[Bin_jammin]

big jammin where do you live? are you in az? I will go with the assembly lube at this point. I will check the bearings hopefully soon I appreciate all the help.

Sorry dude, as much as I love AZ (went there shooting a TV show last year) I'm in New England. CT to be precise. I have to say, if I could swing the ticket to fly my ass out there, I got to eat at some awesome burger joints. Wattaburger, Carl's Jr., Sonic. I heard a rumor that there's an In n Out somewhere too, but I couldn't find it while I was there, I only had a small window of free time driving around.

[jjdickm]

Sorry dude, as much as I love AZ (went there shooting a TV show last year) I'm in New England. CT to be precise. I have to say, if I could swing the ticket to fly my ass out there, I got to eat at some awesome burger joints. Wattaburger, Carl's Jr., Sonic. I heard a rumor that there's an In n Out somewhere too, but I couldn't find it while I was there, I only had a small window of free time driving around.
theres a in and out three miles from my house. They have one in tempe by ASU now. Im south in chandler/ awahtukee area

[Bin_jammin]

theres a in and out three miles from my house. They have one in tempe by ASU now. Im south in chandler/ awahtukee area

Nice, we actually shot a few segments there, one in Chandler, and one at Mercy General. Also at St. Joe's downtown. I think it was Chandler that was right next to a highway that was at the time still under construction. Beautiful area out there, like driving through a Road Runner cartoon :)

What really blew my mind though was obviously the cars with no rust. Seeing things like old Celicas that are just used cars to you people, but out here they'd be rolling rust traps.

The thing that really made my mind do flips was seeing lifts at garages. OUTSIDE! Being able to work on a car outdoors on a lift has to be the coolest thing in the universe.

[jjdickm]

Thanks for everyones help. I just found the problem is the no 1 cylinder con rod bearing. as soon as I loosened the con rod the engine could rotate. I am going to remove it and change the bearing.

[jjdickm]

This engine is driving me insane. I just put in the new bearings and tightened it and again it binds. WTF? maybe the rod is bent...

[bsell]

This engine is driving me insane. I just put in the new bearings and tightened it and again it binds. WTF? maybe the rod is bent...

Were the rod ends serviced at the machine shop? Could it be that they left the big end too tight during the machining?

Brian

[632 Regal]

pictures of the bearings might help
This engine is driving me insane. I just put in the new bearings and tightened it and again it binds. WTF? maybe the rod is bent...

[Bin_jammin]

I'm guessing you don't have a set of calipers to measure your crank journals or a bore gauge for checking roundness of a hole.

[jjdickm]

no I don't do this that often. the machine shop didn't do much besides hone the cylinders and disassemble everything. should I try swapping out the rod?

[Bin_jammin]

no I don't do this that often. the machine shop didn't do much besides hone the cylinders and disassemble everything. should I try swapping out the rod?


I'd start by checking the thickness of the crank in that section, then the thickness of the rod bearings themselves, it's possible you've got a single oversized bearing in there. Did you plastigauge the bearings?

[jjdickm]

So I was working on the engine last night more and got really pissed off and put in the other set of rods that I had from my other project. and it rotates perfectly now. O and I checked the platigauge on all the bearings and they were in clearance.

[jjdickm]

I also forgot to ask how do I fill the torque converter? I think I know how to fill it I just wanted to make sure there isn't something special I have to do...

[Ross]

Pour some of the oil in it before assembly so it isn't dry. It will fill when the pump starts turning.

[jjdickm]

yeah that what I kinda figured. it will get some fluid in it. thanks

[Ross]

Jeez, what a pissin' match this turned into.
I'll share my experience with the engines I've assembled. The rest of you can fault me if you wish.
Packing the oil pump with Vaseline prevents it from cavitating at start up.
Assembly lube on sliding parts such as cam lobes and valve stems.
Engine oil, sometimes mixed with thick additives like STP on the bearings and seals.
Crank with fuel and spark disabled until oil pressure comes up.
Did it this way this weekend. All is well.

[jjdickm]

thanks for the advice. it sounds like everyone has their own way of doing it.