Anyone into PCs?

[Jon K]

Hey guys sorta OT, very OT actually but I am at work on lunch and what the hell.

I just upgraded my PC @ home. I had been using:

AMD Athlon XP 2500+ @ 3200+ speeds
1GB DDR Kingston Memory
Epox 8RDA3+ Motherboard
ATI X800 Pro video card
160GB IDE
120GB SATA
Coolermaster Mini R120 self-contained water cooler
WinXP Pro 32 bit

I couldn't play any new games really, I was running out of hard disk, and honestly I am working now so I figured what the hey, build a kick ass system!

So what I got is:

Intel Quad Core Q6600 2.4GHz @ 3.1GHz
eVGA 680i SLI Motherboard (NF68-A1, can overclock the quad)
4GB DDR2 800 G.Skill Memory (2 x 2GB, may bump to 8GB for shits)
eVGA Nvidia Geforce 8800 GTX 768MB DDR3 Card
2x Hitachi 500GB SATA drives in RAID 0
700w Thermaltake PSU
Windows Vista Ultimate 64 bit

So needless to say the system is fast and I am very happy. Still going to add another 500GB drive, and probably another 4GB of RAM (I want to run Ubuntu and have a dedicated drive, but want to be able to run Windows Vista in a VirtualBox session with 2 - 3GB of RAM dedicated).

The only thing I sort of regretted was that I used my old PC case which is a nice Antec tower, but the finish (factory paint) had scratches/chips. So I powder coated it gloss white, which was nice.

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Misc%20Powder%20Coating/case1.jpg

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/system1.jpg

Thats the new PC in there.

However, the space was tight, so I decided to look at new cases (and the fact that I now have a Athlon XP system with no case!).

The CPU was also "average" in terms of temperature but the video card was heating the hell out of the case. So, time for a bigger/better designed case.

I went and ordered the Thermaltake Armor LCS - its a big nicely designed case with tons of room, but it comes with a decent water cooling setup. I got the black version but the front looks like...

http://img.hexus.net/v2/cases/thermaltake/armorlcs/armor.1.s.jpg

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/newcase2.jpg

You can see the new water cooling and all. I am adding a 2nd radiator 320mm in length to supplement the stock 240mm radiator, so as to provide me with the ability to add the video card and north bridge into the water loop.

Anyone else into this stuff at all?

[ILoveMPower]

What is the price for a Jon K special pc?

[Jon K]

What is the price for a Jon K special pc?

LOL a what? This setup, without keyboard/mouse/monitor/speakers comes in around $1900 after I added the new case... prob a little over $2,000 with the additional watercooling parts I ordered.

I must have done something horrible in a past life because God made me love 3 very expensive hobbies! Computers, turbo BMWs, and photography!

[spyrot1]

I'm a Director of IT, so I deal with this stuff all day...

Are you able to find all your drivers for Vista 64bit? I run regular Vista ultimate on my work laptop and have issues finding drivers (especially printers.)

Why did you go 64bit? the 32bit version would be good enough as most applications aren't 64bit and don't even need the full 4gb of RAM. I would only go 64bit if I were running a server with some sort of database. I run Windows Server 2003 64bit on one of my servers and find it's more of a problem then a solution (although it's very fast, not much is written for it).

Cool machine thought...

[Jon K]

I'm a Director of IT, so I deal with this stuff all day...

Are you able to find all your drivers for Vista 64bit? I run regular Vista ultimate on my work laptop and have issues finding drivers (especially printers.)

Why did you go 64bit? the 32bit version would be good enough as most applications aren't 64bit and don't even need the full 4gb of RAM. I would only go 64bit if I were running a server with some sort of database. I run Windows Server 2003 64bit on one of my servers and find it's more of a problem then a solution (although it's very fast, not much is written for it).

Cool machine thought...

I am also in IT ;)

32 bit operating systems only account for about 2.5 - 2.75 GB of RAM, anything over that is not utilized. I play some pretty heft new games that benefit from having a bunch of memory. Additionally as I said, I am going to be running a virtual machine with 2 - 3 GB of RAM dedicated and one core dedicated (like having multiple computers in one this way with virtually no latency). 64 bit operating systems are the only ones that have the memory addressing to handle > 4GB. I haven't had any issues with lack of drivers - all my stuff is pretty mainstream

[winfred]

i've been kinda wanting to build a new system but i haven't used up the old one yet i built a few years ago,
asus k8vse deluxe
x800 pro
amd 3200+ 64
gig of ddr400
sata2 250 (recent addition)

nothing oc'd, been thinking about gettind a 2nd sata for a raid, adding another gig and may oc the processor and video card a little if needed

i still remember my last mac, a blue & white 300 that i overclocked to 450 with just the addition of a fan to the stock heatsink and some thermal grease, ****er ran at that speed for years, i guess they had plenty of head space on those early processors

[Elekta]

These Boxx's are awesome (http://www.boxxtech.com/products/products.asp)

[Jon K]

These Boxx's are awesome (http://www.boxxtech.com/products/products.asp)

My system shits on the chest of those boxx's - at least the "non server" boxes they offer.

[Elekta]

yeah, but some folks don't build from scratch and have the disposable income you clearly do

[Jon K]

yeah, but some folks don't build from scratch and have the disposable income you clearly do

Haha except those things are way more expensive than what I built! DIY and save a ton of cash!

[BMWDriver]

I'm kinda into that too. I have two PCs at home, but none can play current new games. However, I don't mind it for now. I especially use one of them as a HTPC to play DVDs, and also for somewhat older games. I was hooked on Half-Life 2 and mods and other FPS, but lately I lack the interest.

MSI PM8MV3
Intel PIV at 3.2 GHz
1 GB Kingston Dual Channel
200 GB Sata
X800XT All-in-Wonder 256MB
Sondigo Inferno 7.1 sound card (DTS, Dolby...)
Sony 5.1 sound system
Samsung 27 inch 1920x1200

My other system is for graphical editing for the drawings and cartoons I make when I feel creative. Nothing fancy here:

Asus A7N8X
AMD XP2800+ Barton Core at 1.9 GHz
512 MB Corsair Value Select
2 Hard drives hooked in
ATI 9600 Pro 128 MB
Samsung 22 inch 1650 x 1080

Both have an Antec case, and I just loved how easy it was to work with them. And they are real quiet!

I look forward to Crysis, but I will wait many months before I get into a more recent system. There's too much controversy around DX10 and Vista, and I'm also curious to see how AMD (ATI) will fare in the months to come.

Again Jon, you blow us away.

[Elekta]

Haha except those things are way more expensive than what I built! DIY and save a ton of cash!

If you factor your knowledge of computers, compared to the next guy, your DIY isn't exactly affordable.

Your system is very sweet for sure

[Turbo Ready]

Here are a few pics of my BMW Spec PC :)

Has daytime running lights and stunning, sexy night lights. It is intercooled with a water cooled video card with chrome piping.

[Jon K]

If you factor your knowledge of computers, compared to the next guy, your DIY isn't exactly affordable.

Your system is very sweet for sure

I dunno it's really not all that difficult what with all the guides floating around on building systems as well! I just priced a similar system through Alienware, slower than mine, @ $3,600 whew! It's crazy how much people will pay though!


I look forward to Crysis, but I will wait many months before I get into a more recent system. There's too much controversy around DX10 and Vista, and I'm also curious to see how AMD (ATI) will fare in the months to come.

Again Jon, you blow us away.

That and BioShock are the sole reasons I built this computer :) Blow ya away, naaaaah it's not that crazy.

[Turbo Ready]

Pics of the cooling system. It also has a blue backlit LCD multifunction display.

[attack eagle]

Hey guys sorta OT, very OT actually
http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/newcase2.jpg

You can see the new water cooling and all. I am adding a 2nd radiator 320mm in length to supplement the stock 240mm radiator, so as to provide me with the ability to add the video card and north bridge into the water loop.

Anyone else into this stuff at all?

INto building computers? no... respecting those who have those skills, yes.

Water cooling electronics? you better beleive I'm into it. That is why I Love PPI Art series.

BTW,the same things that make blue BMW coolant so great are the same things that you look for in watercooling PCs...

[Jon K]

INto building computers? no... respecting those who have those skills, yes.

Water cooling electronics? you better beleive I'm into it. That is why I Love PPI Art series.

BTW,the same things that make blue BMW coolant so great are the same things that you look for in watercooling PCs...

Yeah I am running a glycol mix with uv reactant.

[pgrindstaff]

I've been into computers and building them since before I can remember. I first got my feet wet by building about 12 computers for one of my dad's friends back when an athlon thunderbird 1.2ghz was fast.

Unfortunately pc building and upgrading is quite an expensive hobby, as are cars, but you know that. Like any guy interested in building PCs i upgrade when I can but its not too often. Right now I have a pc that should last me a couple more years (I hope...):

AMD Athlon X2 4600+ @ 2.4GHZ
ASUS M2N32-SLI Deluxe Wireless Edition
4GB Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800
Evga 8800GTS 640MB
1x250GB HD, 2x300GB HD, 2x500GB HD
ATI Theater 650 Pro
OCZ 600W Gamerxtreme PSU
Vista Ultimate x64

I have found that Vista x64 is quite stable and supports just about any hardware I plug into it and only run Vista x86 on my laptop. Legacy devices somtimes pose a problem but occasionally XP drivers work for me. x64 isn't really needed but hell, I have the hardware, might as well give it the ability to live up to its potential.

Bioshock is fun and looks great, thats all there is to say about that. The next game I am really interested in is Unreal Tournament 3. If any of you are interested in playing that when it comes out, or play UT2004 now, lets get together and play sometime.

[Elekta]

I bought the Sony Digital Living system and upgraded the HD's to two 750 SATA Raids in the hopes of ripping a 3500 CD collection in full WMA to the HD and also all of my kids DVD's so they couldn't get destroyed anymore.

I have had nothing but problems ever since, and it costs me $80/hr for a techie to come over and try to improve the speed and efficiency. I would love to box it up and send it to you to make it functional and efficient again.

Have any interest in farting around with my home entertainment system? The warranty's out and I have all the CD's so I really could wipe the system clean and reinstall again and see if it's worth keeping at all.
http://www.learningcenter.sony.us/DigitalLivingSystem/XL2Series

I also want to be able to rip the DVD's to the HD (which currently it won't do), and use it as a TIVO system more efficiently.

lmk anyone?

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

Total respect fella`s but my valve Marantz works fine and Sony Vaio`s do what it sez on the label! The weather must be a bit hot on your planet Jon to need that much cooling!

[Jon K]

Total respect fella`s but my valve Marantz works fine and Sony Vaio`s do what it sez on the label! The weather must be a bit hot on your planet Jon to need that much cooling!

Heh the CPU has 4 cores (overclocked almost 1GHz above spec) on it combined with this killer video card, it gets HOT

[PScalfano]

I built a PC last october, caught one of the last single core AMDs at a good price and Newegg threw in a free SATA hard drive. Total cost was $1200 including OS. It runs half life 2 good, and hopefully will run Hellgate london good. I am not planning on upgrading to vista. I never liked the lights and such because I store my PC in my bedroom and the lights keep me awake, so it's definitely not much of a sight to see. Future plans: maybe 2gb more of ram (I know xp can only handle like 3.x gigs), another 7600gt for SLI, and maybe an ubuntu partition depending if someone develops linux drivers for my sound card.

Processor: AMD FX-55 2.6ghz single core socket 939

Motherboard: Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe

Hard Drive (1): Seagate Barracuda 250GB 7200 RPM SATA

Graphics Card: EVGA 7600GT

Sound Card: Creative X-Fi Platinum (this thing is the bomb)

Optical Drive (1): ASUS DVD-RAM capable drive

Optical Drive (2): Sony NEC Optiarc 18X DVD±R DVD Burner With 12X DVD-RAM Write

Power Supply: In Win 460w (this has a blue light on the back. sucky.)

RAM: 2gb Crucial DDR 400 (PC 3200)184-pin

Case: Lian Li PC60

OS: XP pro

guts... looks pretty nasty.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/PScalfano/computer/DSCF2347.jpg

The heat sink took a little bit of "persuasion" to get into the case (sliding motherboard tray), but it got in there.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/PScalfano/computer/DSCF2296.jpg

[M20Turbo]

I noticed that some of you guys use AMD and others use Intel? Why would you chose one over the other?

[Tiger]

Does the Vista Ultimate recognize 4 procesors? I know XP pro is only good for 2 processors.

[PScalfano]

I chose AMD cause it was on sale. For single core, AMDs are considered better for gaming and real time "reaction" processing, while Intels are better for repetitive calculations such as encoding MP3s and other multimedia functions. I have not kept up with multi core stuff, but the same may hold true.

[Jon K]

I noticed that some of you guys use AMD and others use Intel? Why would you chose one over the other?

AMD used to be the best bang for the buck, and often outran Intel clock for clock.

For instance, the XP series processors were modeled "2500+" but really ran at 1,883 MHz or so, yet they out performed, or performed like a 2,500 MHz P4 hence the modeling. And so a 3200+ was supposed to be similar to 3.2GHz Intel. However, Intel began with the dual core and 64 bit stuff that became way more affordable than AMD's X2 and Athlon 64 x 2 stuff. And, to top it all off, AMD made it clear they were concerned with trying to wring horsepower from their chips without making them any more power efficient. Higher power consuming processors run hotter, so performance is worse, in effect.

Vista does recognize 4 processors. I am sure Home Basic may not but Ultimate will recognize 128GB+ RAM and I think something like 32 CPUs I am not sure.

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Screenshots/system.jpg

[winfred]

it's different for every processor series on which one does something better, i know in the past intel units were hot as ****, which seriously sucks when you pay for a fast processor and it's running 2/3 speed due to heat, and in some cases it's ford vs chevy, i just like amd because i do, and so do the computer guys i am around

[BMWDriver]

When I bought my AMD cpu, it was for the economical side of things a few years back, and the good reputation compared to Intel equivalents when compared to price. Nowadays, Intel chips have been proven to be the best overclockers giving a superb opportunity of performance for the price.

AMD still gives good performance for the money, so it's still a somewhat tight race between the two, but Intel is still the most popular since reviewers always consider overclockability.

[Jon K]

yeah I went AMD to Intel simply because of affordability and overclock potential.

The quad core I have was like $285 - $290, and SMOKES everything in terms of overclocking and processing. At least for 30 days :)

[indierthanthou]

My new H4xb0x:
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x55/indierthanthou/SP_A0389.jpg

[Macv]

I've built many gaming pcs and sold them to the local pc shop. Recently I've not had time to work with the cases and such anymore so I bought a Macbook Pro, bootcamped XP, and it actually operates faster than any other pc I've built. Sucks huh?

I've also recently picked up a quad-core for my graphic designs and image processing. But it's just plain and boring looking.

[M20Turbo]

Thanks for the information, Intel Quad Core sounds like the way to go.




yeah I went AMD to Intel simply because of affordability and overclock potential.

The quad core I have was like $285 - $290, and SMOKES everything in terms of overclocking and processing. At least for 30 days :)

[Sam-Son]

I don't know **** about computers, all I know is that I want what ever this is

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/newcase2.jpg

[Jon K]

lol whatever this is thats funny!@

[Macv]

Thanks for the information, Intel Quad Core sounds like the way to go.

If you're a gamer, quad cores aren't really going to up your performance a **** load like most expect. Maybe if you process images, download and game all at the same time. But generally for one task they're not a huge advantage..... yet

[nirvana19]

yeah I went AMD to Intel simply because of affordability and overclock potential.

The quad core I have was like $285 - $290, and SMOKES everything in terms of overclocking and processing. At least for 30 days :)

Nice setup.. haven't had time/the need to upgrade my stuff lately. Last time I built a full system from scratch a PIV 2.0 from tigerdirect cost around 350 bucks.... Currently running a Pentium D 3.0 2GB kingston 667, 2 500GB SATA drives, nvidia 7800GT, and all the other junk (HD tv tuner + 2 regular tuners, four dvd burners for making mass copies, oh and a thermaltake 700W psu. Running XP Media Center 2005 and ubuntu 7.04 w/ beryl.

I'm considering Vista but I've only heard bad things about it, my system is about as quick as I need it to be and I don't need any new feature in particular. What do you think about Vista Jon? You're system is probably running about as fast as Vista gets

[Jon K]

If you're a gamer, quad cores aren't really going to up your performance a **** load like most expect. Maybe if you process images, download and game all at the same time. But generally for one task they're not a huge advantage..... yet

The new games are going to be multithreaded though

[Jon K]

I'm considering Vista but I've only heard bad things about it, my system is about as quick as I need it to be and I don't need any new feature in particular. What do you think about Vista Jon? You're system is probably running about as fast as Vista gets

I like it man - I am an ubuntu 7.04 guy, and I like it. Pretty to look at and easy to use - a little awkward at first, but you learn it

[Macv]

The new games are going to be multithreaded though

Wooo UT3 ftw.

[Montreal525]

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/newcase2.jpg

Holy crap.... That looks like it could be the original Borg.... You guys are nuts... I have a Intel P3 600mhz, overclocked from 500mhz, that one of my friend built me... He's like you guys, big time computer IT tech / builder... He keeps telling me we need to upgrade my computer but what the hell, it works just fine for what I do with it...

Jeff

[bigtisas]

I'm in highend server development. I used to have a server with 100 processors , 512GB RAM and 100 PCIe cards. All running in a single OS (Solaris). The server is air cooled. With VMware, i should be able to run hundreds of Windows XP virtual machines. I wanted to put some neons lights to jazz up the server but the idea was banned by the management. Why can't we have a cool looking server? :)

And we are going to release a 16-core processor soon.

http://www.sun.com/servers/images/gw/I1_hw_sunfire_e20k_g.jpg

[Ferret]

Interestingly as soon as I started working in big systems (like f*cking hueg) I became rapidly bored with desktop pc architecture. The last pc I bought was an Athlon X2 system which runs like a beast, it got put out to graze as a media pc connected to the flat screen tv through its dvi port when work gave me a personal IBM P520 to use.

I never understood why the mainframe class p595s I use are so effing slow as well, they've got 64 dual core cpus and 128 gig of ram a piece, yet even with no users they can be horrifically slow. Their one redeeming feature about that though is they run at the same speed regardless of 1 or 10k users being plugged into the database :)

I want to find my original copy of unreal now :o

That game was staggering when it came out new, and still looked better than almost anything I've seen today when running on a voodoo 2 SLi with the glide drivers.

Damn them for getting bought out and shut down, the glide drivers produced a level of smoothness and quality that still hasnt been matched - yeah everything these days is visually stunning, but it doesnt have the smooth fuzzy realistic edge the old 3dfx cards used to have.

[bigtisas]

I never understood why the mainframe class p595s I use are so effing slow as well, they've got 64 dual core cpus and 128 gig of ram a piece, yet even with no users they can be horrifically slow. Their one redeeming feature about that though is they run at the same speed regardless of 1 or 10k users being plugged into the database :)


Get a Sun server instead of IBM. :) Many software are not designed to take advantage of multi-processors. Regardless of how many processors, most software still use one processor. Software has to be rewritten to divide the work to multiple processors. It's not easy programming. It's like drive 100 cars at the same time. The developer has to coordinate all the work and not crashing any of them.

[Jon K]

Get a Sun server instead of IBM. :) Many software are not designed to take advantage of multi-processors. Regardless of how many processors, most software still use one processor. Software has to be rewritten to divide the work to multiple processors. It's not easy programming. It's like drive 100 cars at the same time. The developer has to coordinate all the work and not crashing any of them.


Ehh multithreading, teaming, clustering etc really isn't all that difficult given current system architecture.

[infurno]

I got a Q6600 with a p5k motherboard last week for my new job. im having trouble getting dual channel to work. Fans will spin up but wont post. Other then that the computer is fast as hell. Last night i did some rendering with all 4 cores, pretty impressive. I spent ~$600 in all.

All applications seem to benefit from a quad core system, even if not multithreaded. Windows xp does a good job spreading processes through the cores, nothing sits idle while another grinds. They are always busy working together.

my current specs are...

asus p5k deluxe
q6600
2gb 1066 ram
geforce 7900
250gb hdd

I was looking into getting a solid state hard drive, at least just for the os install but they are expensive and not quite ready. I looked into getting a ddr3 p5k3 but the technology is too new too, and currently has higher latency then ddr2.

My next upgrade will be another 250gb for Raid 0.

my old pc is going into my 525i when i get some time and figure out the best place to mount the lcd

[Ferret]

Ehh multithreading, teaming, clustering etc really isn't all that difficult given current system architecture.

Lol, I'd have hoped Oracle had multithreading sorted out by now... and our machine classes are defined by govt standards - they bought the machines for us to play with as these are kind of out of normal IT price brackets.

The 595s were running are actually 595c's which are unadvertised custom built boxes and have been 'tweaked' slightly during production to be overspecced. I've never actually been near the physical machines as they're in datacentres that you have to get weighed in and out of (how to immediately piss off your female employees!) to make sure you've not pinched a disk or something.

My father works with sun F15ks on another govt project (seems to run in the family) and says they're brilliant, except for the amount of electricity they eat - it's causing him headaches on redundancy :D

[Ferret]

my old pc is going into my 525i when i get some time and figure out the best place to mount the lcd

http://www.cartft.com/catalog/il/730 ?

http://www.cartft.com/image_db/CID700M_Gesamt.jpg

In dash touchscreen svga screen? There's loads of these knocking around on ebay for good prices usually.

[pmlmotorsports]

Not a big fan of anything Thermaltake......their cases are over-priced and the competition, Cooler Master, Lian Li, Gigabyte, etc.... have far superior offerings. If utilizing an 8800GTX, a 700 watt Power Supply is "marginal" at best. The EVGA 680i board is actually an NVidia reference board which several manufacturers have "re-badged" as their very own. MSI, Foxconn, EVGA are among the companies offering this board. It's the standard of the industry, reliable, and a great OC'er...but G Skill memory???? I'm not a fan of any 3rd party memory manufacturers. Cooler Master case, ASUS motherboards, Crucial Ballistix memory, XFX Graphic Cards, and PC Power and Cooling power supplies are the combo I recommend for my clients who want extreme gamer rigs. But that's just my personal preference....I'm sure you will disagree with my comments, but that's par for the course....wink.

[Jon K]

i've had bad luck with asus never will i used them again - i'd rather have an nvidia reference board, personally, and eVGA makes one of the best boards/vid cards I have used. I've had bad luck with Asus and MSI in both video cards and motherboards - I think I RMA'd 4 - 5 MSI boards in the past. PC Power and Cooling are very over priced for what you get - the TT 700w reviewed very well, and 700 watt is more than enough for a single GTX. They recommend a minimum of 450 watt, so I'd say 700 watt is good over head. G.Skill got good review additionally. Crucial doesn't make their ballistix ram in anything over 2 x 1GB kits, which means no more than 4GB will ever be utilized, and in 4 dimms. Not a fan of that for upgradability. The XFX brand isn't very popular and they only offer standard video cards from Nvidia, no OC'd models. They have only 8 reviews on NewEgg and 2 of them were just "Good" with 1 being DOA. eVGA has like 570 reviews, with way better review, and it's a couple dollars cheaper. I find Cooler Master cases to be over hyped, very plain - the TT armor case is reaaaally hot. Lian Li is just over price utilitarian cases also over hyped - used to have one, aluminum scratches real bad.

I dunno, eVGA customer support is awesome - I will never buy another brand unless I have to!

I got a new water block for my CPU, it's freaking awesome!

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/dtek1.jpg

And i now have a 3x120 mm swiftech radiator on the top of the case, you can see the water lines going out the back and up, cools very well!

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/dtek3.jpg

[bahnstormer]

why is there no love for the WD raptors? everyone seems to be all about 500gig internal drives... =\

i have two 10,000 rpm raptors in raid stripe and just keep all my videos/pictures/etc on external firewire drives... in case of emergency you can grab your drives and scoot....

it might not be as fast but i also can take my drive over to the gf's and exchange music/video etc very easily....

get some external HDs folks! =]

[winfred]

because they were passed by sata II raptors are sata I, raid 2 pair of sata II's and it's faster with less heat less noise more space and about the same price as a pair of 10k drives plus you have redundant back up's, a drive can completely **** and you pop in a new one let it sync up and you are good to go


why is there no love for the WD raptors? everyone seems to be all about 500gig internal drives... =\

i have two 10,000 rpm raptors in raid stripe

[pmlmotorsports]

As usual Jon never goes with the experts. Apparently, Anand Lal Shimpi www.anandtech.com and Dr. Thomas Pabst www.tomshardware.com , two very well known and highly respected PC tech/reviewers are no match for the brilliance of the man from Phiily's suburban area, our very own "Powdercoat" Jon K..... While I will agree that MSI is a decent board, they have NEVER been considered a "high quality" mainboard. Asus on the other hand has acheived legendary status for their mainboards and have won more awards than any other motherboard manufacturer, Period. And FYI, this is a quote from a Newegg member's review about Nvidia 680i boards and G Skill memory after he contacted G Skill bout an issue - "Manufacturer Response:4 sticks of memory on 680 or 650i motherboard might have issue. we don't recommend install 4 dimm on nvidia 570,590,650, 680i chipset. however, 2 sticks or 3 sticks are no problem whatsoever, thank you"....so I guess you won't be upgrading your memory anytime soon. All kidding aside Jon, you can NEVER give credit to anything or anyone unless it's something you agree upon. According to you, there's several ways to achieve the same result....many, many wrong ways, and Jon's way...which is of course IS the right way, the ONLY WAY !!!! While I truly admire your intelligence and modding abilities, I despise your attitude toward anyone who presents an alternative method or a difference of opinion. It's like if YOU decide on something that's not considered the absolute best, that's ok, but God forbid anyone else does, you shoot them down like they're the "villiage idiot" Facts: a vast majority of drivers find Polyurethane bushings to be too hard for street use and most Polyurethane manufacturers don't recommend them do to durability issues plus the harsh ride; WIndows Vista is still in it's infancy and has many known issues with drivers and gaming; anyone serious about modding would never use Rondell Wheels, as they are extremely heavy and their offsets don't allow for maximum tire fitments; common sense tells you that actually having a spare tire should not be an option, but a requirement. Maybe that's why Ferrari, Rolls Royce, and Lambo include'em (unless you think they expect the owner to actually change the flat); you cannot find a current rear-wheel drive car which developes 300hp or more that comes stock with a rear tire less than 265mm wide. Yours is 255mm.....are you getting it? You ignored each of these facts and/or recommendations, but it's ok because you're Jon K. I mean what do these "villiage idiots" know anyway? Right? It's a nice PC Jon, I hope it gives you years of trouble-free service.

[bahnstormer]

because they were passed by sata II raptors are sata I, raid 2 pair of sata II's and it's faster with less heat less noise more space and about the same price as a pair of 10k drives plus you have redundant back up's, a drive can completely **** and you pop in a new one let it sync up and you are good to go


i'll give you the transfer speeds of sata2 are faster than sata1, but not seek/spinup times...right?

re teh drive failures very true but about the drive failures well that deserves its own topic =]

[leicesterboy15]

Its amazing that it takes a non-car related topic to get 6 pages of coverage!

My PC was the dogs about 3 years ago, got it from a friend, it was a pc used in the games industry for graphics development so IT was **** hot, its big and ugly and probably overdue for an upgrade but I work as an IT consultant so get a lot of kit from work and don't really have the time for games (I've used my PS2 twice in the last 2 years) so it will stay until I absolutely must upgrade it.

This however is a different matter....Home PCs are so last year..... :)

http://www.stevieg.org/carpc/install/building/

[Jon K]

As usual Jon never goes with the experts. Apparently, Anand Lal Shimpi www.anandtech.com and Dr. Thomas Pabst www.tomshardware.com , two very well known and highly respected PC tech/reviewers are no match for the brilliance of the man from Phiily's suburban area, our very own "Powdercoat" Jon K..... While I will agree that MSI is a decent board, they have NEVER been considered a "high quality" mainboard. Asus on the other hand has acheived legendary status for their mainboards and have won more awards than any other motherboard manufacturer, Period. And FYI, this is a quote from a Newegg member's review about Nvidia 680i boards and G Skill memory after he contacted G Skill bout an issue - "Manufacturer Response:4 sticks of memory on 680 or 650i motherboard might have issue. we don't recommend install 4 dimm on nvidia 570,590,650, 680i chipset. however, 2 sticks or 3 sticks are no problem whatsoever, thank you"....so I guess you won't be upgrading your memory anytime soon. All kidding aside Jon, you can NEVER give credit to anything or anyone unless it's something you agree upon. According to you, there's several ways to achieve the same result....many, many wrong ways, and Jon's way...which is of course IS the right way, the ONLY WAY !!!! While I truly admire your intelligence and modding abilities, I despise your attitude toward anyone who presents an alternative method or a difference of opinion. It's like if YOU decide on something that's not considered the absolute best, that's ok, but God forbid anyone else does, you shoot them down like they're the "villiage idiot" Facts: a vast majority of drivers find Polyurethane bushings to be too hard for street use and most Polyurethane manufacturers don't recommend them do to durability issues plus the harsh ride; WIndows Vista is still in it's infancy and has many known issues with drivers and gaming; anyone serious about modding would never use Rondell Wheels, as they are extremely heavy and their offsets don't allow for maximum tire fitments; common sense tells you that actually having a spare tire should not be an option, but a requirement. Maybe that's why Ferrari, Rolls Royce, and Lambo include'em (unless you think they expect the owner to actually change the flat); you cannot find a current rear-wheel drive car which developes 300hp or more that comes stock with a rear tire less than 265mm wide. Yours is 255mm.....are you getting it? You ignored each of these facts and/or recommendations, but it's ok because you're Jon K. I mean what do these "villiage idiots" know anyway? Right? It's a nice PC Jon, I hope it gives you years of trouble-free service.

le sigh. i am not even reading your post, because truthfully, all I said is I've had issues with the manufacturers you've listed. I've also had a BUNCH of epox RMAs, twp ASUS DOAs, Biostar issues, etc. I am using eVGA now - all the people I know are using them and have NO issues. NONE.

PML - you really need to chill out. I am active on Toms hardware and Arstechnica, Xtremesystems, Anandtech, HardOCP, etc. And guess what, tons of guys are using the G Skill stuff ;) Sure you can go after Crucial Ballistix but seriously its not that great and like I said, I am into moderate overclocking with more RAM/disk, not 2 - 4GB maximum. I am not into running 4 dimms of RAM for 4 GB. XFX isn't very highly regarded by people I know/deal with, and eVGA has excellent customer support.

Get off the high horse, its a PC I have my opinion and you yours. We have vastly different professions and believe it or not I may know more than you think.

edit: I glanced over your thread - are you really talking about wheel offset?! Haha wtf! PS I have more than 255. Mustang GT makes over 300 hp and 320 ft lb torque through 17x8 with 235s. 335i makes a modestly rated 300 hp and 300 tq through an open differential through *gulp* 225's. Pontiac GTO makes 350 - 400 hp through what, 245's?

I am not sure what you're getting at. Spare tires? My car is not a daily driver commuter any more, but if I did need to put a spare in it I could. Polyurethane? I guess you don't have a best friend who runs a polymer injection company - but I do! There are a ton of urethanes ;) Not just "HARD!" and "REALLY HARD!" but, you know that. I have no idea why you're bringing up my car in a PC thread I think it's funny.

[Ferret]

Jeeesus f*ck...

...the entire board seems to have got pmt recently, this is the second thread that's gone into bitch mode in a week :(

This makes Ferret sad.

[attack eagle]

someone has a car pc in their e34... is it jonK? or was it someone else? I remember the alcantara trim around it.

pm motorsports: in the 90's lots of cars with 300 hp had only 255s.

I know a lot of modded rwd cars today with > 300 whp (not bhp) that have only 245 or 255's rear.

there are a lot more sports cars without spares than there are with them anymore, including all BMW offerings.

so I have to ask, what was the purpose of your little rant? Does the PM stand for Pre menstrual?

He built it how he wanted, and if he is happy with it, then that is all that truly matters. You could ask why he chose certain components instead of others (got a great deal, had them laying around, they were in stock are all options that come to mind) but to go off on a tireade because of your personal animosity is childish and unbecoming.

[Jon K]

It'd probably make pmlmotorsports cry if he knew I only had 10" tires for 700 hp.



I think I will withhold what kind of tires ;)

pmlmotorsports wheelfan boi, ask anyone with a clue, height > width. I'd GLADLY race someone with 400 hp and 305/25/18s on my tires.

The other comments I will let go, only because pml seems to want to argue and quite honestly I don't feel like turning a fun PC thread into a PML debate. But, Vista is showing FPS increase over XP when it comes to certain games, and they all happen to be games that I am interested in playing, so I cannot see how that is a bad thing. Additionally, to use anything more than 2.5 - 2.7 GB of RAM in XP you need to run the 64-bit version, however, the XP 64 is very loosely based on Windows 2003... need I say more?

[NovceGuru]

700hp on an m50 @ 13psi?!!??!?!???!?! sweet

[Jon K]

700hp on an m50 @ 13psi?!!??!?!???!?! sweet

Not exactly at 13 psi

[infurno]

i've had bad luck with asus never will i used them again - i'd rather have an nvidia reference board

im not a big fan of asus either, imho everything about this board just feels kind of cheap. But after two weeks of research into different motherboards the p5k deluxe is one of the fastest you can get and thats all I cared about. It works fine so far, the heat pipes built into the mobo is a nice touch.

Im going to get a $150 water cooling kit, i dont really care for overclocking i just want the damn thing quiet. I used to overclock back when you didnt even need a fan on the cpu but i was never happy with the results. Later on it got a bit expensive with athlons that fry without warning. Overclocking video cards is safer, i may have overlooked a post but have you overclocked your video cards?

If i wanted SLI i would have got a nforce, i they always worked great for me. I have one in my old pc, but never actually had 2 video cards in it.

Hey jon k, how bout we do a benchmark and see how we score?

[Jon K]

I'd be up for that :) I am on stock vid card speed until I get my water block for it, but my CPU is clocked to 3.0GHz right now, with 3.2GHz on the horizon

[infurno]

I'd be up for that :) I am on stock vid card speed until I get my water block for it, but my CPU is clocked to 3.0GHz right now, with 3.2GHz on the horizon

I read somewhere that the q6600 needed only an upgrade from the stock cooler to get to 3.6? Have you tried running it any higher then 3.0 or 3.2?
Do you know what temp are you at under load?

I just remembered... Slight problem with the benchmark, im running linux x64. im guessing your on x86 xp for game compatibility? Its possible im mistaking but a CPU benchmark on an x64 os will be unfair for an x86 os. Also any benchmark we use would have to be available for windows and linux. I don't have windows XP on here, so it will probably have to wait till i do.

You would obviously kill me in any graphics benchmark.

[Jon K]

Yeah its not really worth it to benchmark on a cross-platform basis. Even if we had the same cards, they perform greatly different under *nix and windows. i am running vista 64-bit also. I have yet to install Ubuntu though I have been meaning to!

[infurno]

Yeah its not really worth it to benchmark on a cross-platform basis. Even if we had the same cards, they perform greatly different under *nix and windows. i am running vista 64-bit also. I have yet to install Ubuntu though I have been meaning to!

Thats what im using x64 7.04. Its great so far, i love this os.

Except i can't get photoshop, quake 4, or serious sam 2 running yet with WINE... There are linux binaries available for q4 and ss2 so im going to try that next.

[NovceGuru]

Not exactly at 13 psi
Sorry, was just going off your sig? 13.7 then? :P

[Jon K]

Sorry, was just going off your sig? 13.7 then? :P

No, the motor I am looking for large hp is in my garage on an engine stand. More like 25 - 30 psi with methanol and nitrous injection.

[Jon K]

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/newcomputerdone1.jpg

Computer is done! I am 95% content with my wiring in it, and only intend to add an HDTV tuner card and sound card in a few weeks after I buy a new turbo. hot hot hot!

Everything is FULLY watercooled. Except RAM, and MOSFEST on the mobo which is totally not necessary. So, done and done. Thing is near silent! I love it. Thanks for looking!

[infurno]

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/newcomputerdone1.jpg

Computer is done! I am 95% content with my wiring in it, and only intend to add an HDTV tuner card and sound card in a few weeks after I buy a new turbo. hot hot hot!

Everything is FULLY watercooled. Except RAM, and MOSFEST on the mobo which is totally not necessary. So, done and done. Thing is near silent! I love it. Thanks for looking!

What HDTV tuner are you going to use?

When I was looking the ATI 650 Pro Theater was the best you could get but tv on it still doesn't look as good as it does on a real tv.

I have a projector as my main video output, that may have something to do with the poor standard tv quality. I really want HDTV.

[Jon K]

What HDTV tuner are you going to use?

When I was looking the ATI 650 Pro Theater was the best you could get but tv on it still doesn't look as good as it does on a real tv.

I have a projector as my main video output, that may have something to do with the poor standard tv quality. I really want HDTV.


Analog TV will never look good on a monitor because I think analog is 640x480, which when blow up to.. anything.. looks gross.

HD should look good though!

I was thinking of the Hauppauge 1800

[Jehu]

My PC hasn't been upgraded from an AMD 1.4Ghz athlon like 5 years ago.. its virtually useless on many content rich sites but this is a "PC"( Power Cord ) i assembled for my stereo a couple weeks ago.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/13/131910.html

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1481/ac010wc4.jpg

[winfred]

the mechanic i work with is a major audiophile and he has a serious class A system, it has a few cables that are rather pricey at around a grand for a half meter run, but one of the most amusing parts is the main speaker wires (biwired paradigm's, not sure if he's still running the romex on the highs as he was experimenting with solid silver wire not long ago) are run of the mill romex from the hardware store, that solid copper conductor can run with all but the most absurdly expensive interconnect


My PC hasn't been upgraded from an AMD 1.4Ghz athlon like 5 years ago.. its virtually useless on many content rich sites but this is a "PC"( Power Cord ) i assembled for my stereo a couple weeks ago.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/13/131910.html

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1481/ac010wc4.jpg

[Jehu]

I've been meeting more people who regard High End Stereo as 100% ********. I wanted to see for myself so i set out to try a few of the more highly regarded tweaks . I bought an AC Recepticle which uses Berrylium Copper plated with highly polished platinum and palladium and this cable's plugs are made by the same company from the same metals, then the cable is copper which was drawn in a manner which creates a single crystal rather than the run of the mill process which results in a mulitiplicity of crystal bondries the theroy being the single crystal process results in quiter signal delivery and i can hear the results over the bottem end of the market products easily enough. This cable i made cost about $360.00 and runs from the matching Wall outlet to a Power conditioner which in turn feedsthe Amp with a PC made from the same type of Cu. though with run of the mill hospital grade plugs. Guess I'll have to put one of the high performance outlets in the power conditoner and reterminate the Amp feed cord and CD Player cord next..Its funny to see some people's reaction of mocking incredulity but if i didn't honestly discern some desirable increase in the quality of the end result, the Music, i'd sell the pricey gear and use the most basic stuff available. I got hooked early though having been a Stereo Salesman out of high school.

[winfred]

once you get to the big time class A type stuff you use your cables to set the tone as the amp/preamp are straight though and don't mess with the signal, different cable materials effect the bass and treble and it's not just the interconnects but the power cables too, and you can use different combos too, i think chuck has gone though copper, gold and rhodium wall outlets with tweaking the system. one of the weirdest tone controls he's proved works are these little cones that you put under the cd player, you can change the position of the cones and effect the tone from the digital device (yea i know, but you can't argue with results)

[pundit]

Naah! What you need is this!!! (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=52035) ;)

[pundit]

First of all I like good sound as much as anyone.... but!


I've been meeting more people who regard High End Stereo as 100% ********....
Well yes. If you wind up paying hundreds of $$$$$ for a mains lead/socket that is audibly superior??!! to an 'ordinary' (functional) mains lead... well I'm afraid that is definitely 100% ********!



...I bought an AC Recepticle which uses Berrylium Copper plated with highly polished platinum and palladium and this cable's plugs are made by the same company from the same metals, then the cable is copper which was drawn in a manner which creates a single crystal rather than the run of the mill process which results in a mulitiplicity of crystal bondries the theroy being the single crystal process results in quiter signal delivery and i can hear the results over the bottem end of the market products easily enough. This cable i made cost about $360.00 and runs from the matching Wall outlet to a Power conditioner...
While I can admire your efforts in seeking better sound I assumed you rewired the wall outlet to the fuse box with this amazing cable and then from the fuse box all the way back to the power companies substation?


...which in turn feedsthe Amp with a PC made from the same type of Cu. though with run of the mill hospital grade plugs. Guess I'll have to put one of the high performance outlets in the power conditoner and reterminate the Amp feed cord and CD Player cord next..Its funny to see some people's reaction of mocking incredulity but if i didn't honestly discern some desirable increase in the quality of the end result...
When people spend **** loads of cash on a mains cable they will convince themselves (http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html) it has to sound better than 'ordinary' copper plastic coated cable!
Unfortunately high-end audio is full of *'snake oil' salesman and followers of said 'snake oil'.

*Definition:
a snake-oil salesman (American, informal)
someone who tries to sell you something of no value.

While I realise you put this together yourself in an effort to get another step closer to audio nirvana, you would have done better to spend your $$$ on something else in your system that stands a better chance of gaining some improvement.

Fundamentalist audio buffs and fundamentalist followers of religion both require the removal of something known as 'the ******** detector' in order to function the way they do.

I suggest you read this...

http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p4.htm#power ;)

[Jehu]

I appreciate you looking out for my wallet. That i clearly discern what i consider improvements from this cable i suppose is something only I ,having lived with its predecessor could notice upon its introduction..The signal's extension has increased and the noise floor dropped which means the music retains its coherence further away from the speakers and i hear more detail because the overall presentation is quieter suffering from less of what contributes noise to the signal path. Right now i have a Classical Piano Concerto playing. When i compare the "El- Cheap-O" cords and cables the timbre resolution of each strike of the piano is much more lifelike with "better" cabling. The notes just sound better, more clear, live longer and are exhibited with a greater sense of air around them as though they appear within an infinity of perfect blackness. Theres a more tangible quality to everything. I can clearly hear aspects of recordings which were not revealed thru cables costing much less. The attack of a violin bow on the string can be heard from the very earliest instant and its tone abides thru out its natural life in that the signal doesn't roll off early muting the true nature of the recorded signal which thus yields a very satisfying listening experience. I have some pretty decent gear at the moment you can see the system here; http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/7317.html . I am fairly certain I'd have to spend more than i can to achieve a substantially higher quality sound reproduction than i am enjoying right now. I really did a ton of research and for what i spent , around $6,000.00 I think i did pretty well. Its all used equipment aside from the cable and wall outlet which would have run more than twice that much were it all bought brand new. I still have a few items i want to bring in like some kind of isolation platforms for the CD Player Units. After some cursory study of some other DIY ideas i came up with
this;

http://home.comcast.net/~cpkver8/images/Isopillar2.JPG


http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/14/149411.html

[DaveVoorhis]

I suggest a (mostly) double-blind experiment: You'll need two friends for this.

Have friend #1 flip a coin ten times in secret. Friend #1 should write down the coin flip results, and keep them secret from everyone.

Now get friend #1 ready to run ten listening trials based on the written-down coin flips. If the coin is heads, friend #1 will connect the high-end power lead. If the coin is tails, friend #1 will connect an ordinary power lead. Again, friend #1 must make every effort to keep the coin flips secret.

Have friend #2 blindfold you. Friend #2 must now face you, and face away from the sound system so he/she can't know which lead friend #1 is using.

Have friend #1 run the trials, while friend #2 writes down your responses. You should identify, for each trial, whether you think it's the high-end lead, or the standard power lead.

Once done, compare the original written coin flips -- which determined which lead is used -- to your written responses. The results may be interesting.

[Jehu]

I don't have any friends,lol...

[pundit]

...The signal's extension has increased and the noise floor dropped ...
Okay, you have made some claims that an A/C mains cable/socket has improved the audio performance of a sound system.
You still failed to explain to me how the effect of the 'ordinary' A/C cable that runs from your house all the way back to the electrical generating plant seems to be missing from your equation?
My concern is not so much whether you think your money was well spent... you obviously do.
My concern is someone reading this is then going to head off and spend $$$$$$$$$$$$$ on a #%*&! brand mains lead with the false belief it is going to give them an auditory orgasm.

Oh well. I'll ask the question I always ask...

What audio test measurement equipment did you use to come to your conclusion and how did you conduct the tests?
And please don't just say "your ears!".
Ears, or more to the point subjective listening is just that 'subjective' and is completely unreliable for conducting repeatable verifiable testing.
That's akin to saying god exists... er... just because... er... he does!!

Please show me the test results you made BEFORE you changed the cables and AFTER you changed the cables.

i.e Frequency response measurements, signal to noise measurements etc.

Oh and if anything else was changed at the same time ie. speaker position, volume, listening position, air temperature, humidity etc. then your results will be contaminated by these other factors and as a result totally useless.

As for audio asylum (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=52035), the majority of posters on that forum indeed belong in one! ;)

If you wish to continue this discussion I suggest we move it to the Off Topic Forum. :)

[pundit]

I suggest a (mostly) double-blind experiment:...

OH NO!!! Not the one thing that strikes the fear of death to all audio esoterica snake oil salesman.... The DREADED DOUBLE BLIND TEST!!!!!

"I dunno... I can't really tell the difference between the $2.97 Radio Shack RCA interconnect and the $3,500.00 Giorgio Armani RCA interconnect?"

"Does that mean I'm not a worthy human being?" :(

[winfred]

one point on high end interconnects is when new theres a break in period before they sweeten up, 20-50 hours usually, i don't personally claim to be a audiophile but i believe chuck as he's been doing high end stereo for decades and is a skeptic like me and has turned over a fair amount of high end stuff due to the ******** factor, it helps that he is friends with a guy that use to own the only audiophile shop in town and can still get killer deals and shake old equipment

[pundit]

one point on high end interconnects is when new theres a break in period before they sweeten up, 20-50 hours usually, i don't personally claim to be a audiophile but i believe chuck as he's been doing high end stereo for decades and is a skeptic like me and has turned over a fair amount of high end stuff due to the ******** factor, it helps that he is friends with a guy that use to own the only audiophile shop in town and can still get killer deals and shake old equipment
Break in periods and 'sweetening' are, as far as cables are concerned, are nothing more than audio esoterica 'mumbo jumbo' designed to mystify and mislead many into handing over large amounts of cash for nothing more than some copper in a fancy braided sheath.

Why do some very expensive audio interconnects come with directional arrows printed on them? Audio signals are ****in' A/C!!... THEY'RE NOT ****IN' POLARISED!!!
I asked this question at an audio show once when a jerk was trying to sell my a pair of $1,500.00 RCA interconnects.
He told me... "The correct installation of the leads (in the direction of the arrow) was to ensure the correct flow of the music signal with minimum resistance".... WTF??!!
I ask the ****er if the leads were actually half-wave rectifiers with diodes inside them. He had no idea what I meant... STUPID ****!!

Resistance, capacitance, inductance etc. are all measurable parameters of a conductor.
For audio applications anyone SERIOUSLY trying to properly measure so-called benefits of ultra expensive 'magic' cables against an electrically competent 'normal' cable will have trouble in producing verifiable differences that will make any difference in the real world.

Common excuses for not being able to produce measurable verifiable benefits of esoteric cables are that the tester did not 'break in' the cable correctly.

High end audio gimmickry is little different to penis enlargement devices and cremes that claim to reverse the aging process.
Audio buffs pay thousands of dollars for fancy devices that cost the makers of such junk a few dollars to make.
It should be more correctly referred to as 'audio quackery' to be less harsh maybe 'audio art' or 'audio fashion', but most of it ain't audio science!

Esoteric audio manufacturers like cosmetic manufacturers enjoy obscene profit margins targeting gullible customers who believe their unverifiable claims.
As for proof their products actually do what they claim?... they often produce a list of fabricated customers testimonials.... but never any properly conducted test results and avoid double blind tests like the plague!

Many audio devices do audibly change with heat/time etc.
Vacuum tubes characteristics do change as they warm up to their operating temperature and they also change with age.
Transistors characteristic also changes as they heat up (transconductance).
Power mosfets generally pass less current as they get hotter due to their negative temperature coefficient.
Capacitors can change overtime as they deteriorate and this can effect the sound.

Unfortunately high end audio contains more ******** than all the cattle ranches in Texas combined!! ;)

[attack eagle]

pundit speaks the truth.

[pingu]

Since this thread seems to have become audio & hi-fi related recently, I'll vent my spleen.

Years ago when I was a student I modified/rebuilt my Pioneer CD player so that it became a top-of-the range Technics CD player. As you can guess, I know (or at least used to!) exactly how CD players work. Amazing that they're now so cheap. I also used to made speakers and amplifiers - been there, done that, got Tshirt.

Anyway, in the early 90s there was a fad for painting the inner and outer edges of a CD green using a solvent-based marker pen. Hi-fi 'golden ears' wrote reams about how it sweetened the treble and tautened the bass response. People used to write in letters to hi-fi magazine editors confirming that the green pen treatment improved the sound. Etc etc. The supposed explanation was that the newly green edges absorbed any stray infra-red light (from the laser) that might be bouncing around inside the CD, and that by absorbing the light you'd reduce errors in the optical signal being picked up by the CD player.

The thing is that I modified my CD player once more so that it would now count the number of errors that occured while playing a CD. CD players have error control circuitry that detects when an error has occured and automatically repairs the error by using redundant information (the redundant information is kinda like having a back-up copy of an important file, though it doesn't actually work in that way). Sometimes, for example if there's a really deep scratch, the error control circuitry can't repair the error - these sorts of errors are what my modified CD player counted.

And do you know how many errors generally occured while playing an untreated CD? None. That's right - of the 238 million digital 'sound values' that make up a 45 minute CD, they'd all be fine. Hard to improve on that!

Some CDs would have errors e.g. one would have 23 errors but even those would all occur in the same split second. Some would have about a 1000 errors. But mostly all the errors would happen in a burst. So you'd have one second of impaired music and 44 minutes 59 seconds of perfection. Just for the record, I also did before-and-after tests of some CDs (or course for this test, I had to make sure I was using a CD that did have some errors to start with) and found that painting them didn't give any improvement.

At that point I knew that a vast amount of what's written in the hi-fi press is simply ********.

As DaveVoorhis suggested a few posts ago, if you don't use double-blind trials (also used to test medicines) then you're not actually doing a hi-fi test but instead a psychology experiment into whether or not someone's expectations of an outcome will affect how they perceive things. This is also called the placebo affect. It's not that people are trying to lie - it's simply that many factors are involved in someone's subjective evaluation of something. In the same way, sugar pills make people feel better (as long as they think it's medicine and not sugar!). Doctors are not immune to this which is why, in medical tests, neither the doctors nor the patients know who's getting the placebo medicine and who's getting the real McCoy.

Anyone who thinks that speaker cables made of unobtanium (or all the other esoteric stuff that is associated with the weirder side of hi-fi) is correct - in a very limited sense (like whether a tree falling in a forest makes a sound, or is silent) of the word 'correct' - that the speaker cable has made an improvement. But a sugar pill is cheaper!

Right then, that's my spleen vented!

[pundit]

pingu also speaks the truth! ;)

Here's a link concerning 'Reed Solomon error correction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed-Solomon_error_correction)'

Also in relation to the 'placebo effect'...

A quote from Rod Elliott (http://sound.westhost.com/)...

"...To help gain an understanding of how we form belief systems, have a read of the article "The Belief Engine (http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html)". It is a fascinating look into the way our minds work, and helps to explain how we can perceive very obvious differences that don't actually exist..."

And as for 'burning in' cables...

http://sound.westhost.com/madashell.htm#burnin

When there's money to be made peddling ********, the ******** peddlers will make money!!

[Jehu]

I am not so befuddled that i need someone else to tell me i actually hear what i hear. The extent of what i swallow so to speak, is that cleaner conductors designed after rigorous research for high quality audio do allow the signal to flow with more coherence which yields Higher Fidelity to, of and from the recording. A large amount of my listening is done in the early AM hours to quiet, delicate chamber music like string quartets and piano or violin sonata. This kind of music is composed with a great deal of quiet and subtlety and that i can hear more from my recordings after upgrading cabling is, whatever you may wish to believe not merely a function of my imagination or belief engine. To be startled by new information revealed in familiar recordings is not just my brain telling itself "It" got better because to think i spent money for nothing is too much of a shock. Not merely hearing words i could not understand before become comprehensible or hearing the near microscopic barbs on the Horsetail hair Bows catching on the string as the performer begins to draw or hearing the applause at the Concertgebow In Amsterdam at a King Crimson show from 1973 transformed from a muddy cacophony to crisp clear hand clapping as if they were in my room or the sizzling crash of a Zildjian Cymbal as it decays till it stops or the timbre of a piano note float into my ear without my discerning its genesis alone are what persuades me of the worth of my efforts .Its being moved and transported into the music that comes so alive that it draws me out of my self and into its rapture that makes it worthwhile. After discovering there actually was more information ,and that is really the key, information after all, i never thought to doubt or look back again as i really want to hear for myself what the great composers of history wanted heard in their Music. If you're listening to AC/DC, Scorpions and Metallica all day at 11( on the Volume knob) maybe you won't hear much more with my $1,200 speaker cables on my $3,400 CD Player thru my $5,000 amp over the $1,000 Interconnects via $1,000 in AC cables. I have and do derive satisfaction in enough of that to which i am listening that what I've gathered justifies its cost well. I do think critically and have eschewed numerous 'tweaks' as hocus-pocus and do feel less is more when it comes to signal reproduction and delivery but my Opus 21 does reveal more information to my ears than did my $49.00 Panasonic DVD player which i was using with a Yamaha receiver before i "Upgraded." If i could be satisfied with "good enough" would i own and drive a $65,000 BMW?

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9320/173602329102306benjpg3czj4.jpg

[DaveVoorhis]

... that i can hear more from my recordings after upgrading cabling is, whatever you may wish to believe not merely a function of my imagination or belief engine.
The fact that it's likely a result of both makes it no less real to you. If you weren't convinced it were true, it wouldn't be (by definition) your belief.

If you want to make your beliefs real to anyone else, you need to conduct a double-blind experiment. Try it. It's easy, it's fun, and it might save you from spending more outrageous money on lamp cord.

[pingu]

The weak link in any hi-fi chain is the speakers - they have frequency response and distortion parameters that are shockingly poor compared to a CD player. Or cables.

You didn't mention your loudspkeakers but you might want to check out http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ if you're ever thinking of changing speakers. He also gives lots of background information on loudspeakers and audio in general. There's a review at http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/linkwitz/linkwitz.html

I'm not affiliated with Linkwitz labs but the next time I'm in the US I'll audition a pair of his speakers. He's the guy who put the Linkwitz into Linkwitz-Riley speaker crossovers - in other words he's an audio god.

[Jon K]

You're right. A total god hottie. So hot. Mm I could eat him all up

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/photos/sl5.jpg

[pingu]

It's the glasses that do it for me! ;-)

[winfred]

i am more into the fat guy dweeb sweater and dead squrriel perched on his head


It's the glasses that do it for me! ;-)

[pundit]

You're right. A total god hottie. So hot. Mm I could eat him all up

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/photos/sl5.jpg
Oh dear. I think my electrolytic just sprung a leak!! :D

[[1990]525]

Get a new monitor plz.

[Jon K]

525']Get a new monitor plz.
Who?

[[1990]525]

You, that thing looks barely as wide as your keyboard!

[Ferret]

525']You, that thing looks barely as wide as your keyboard!

Lmao, not upgraded enough?

[Jon K]

525']You, that thing looks barely as wide as your keyboard!

It's 24" widescreen dude...

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/newcomputerdone2.jpg

I think it's fine..

[[1990]525]

It's 24" widescreen dude...

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Computer/newcomputerdone2.jpg

I think it's fine..
Why skimp out on a good monitor after you build a computer like that?

[Jon K]

Skimp out? Its a dell 24" ultra sharp... its like $700 and receives great review.

[Jehu]

The weak link in any hi-fi chain is the speakers - they have frequency response and distortion parameters that are shockingly poor compared to a CD player. Or cables.

You didn't mention your loudspkeakers but you might want to check out http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ if you're ever thinking of changing speakers. He also gives lots of background information on loudspeakers and audio in general. There's a review at http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/linkwitz/linkwitz.html

I'm not affiliated with Linkwitz labs but the next time I'm in the US I'll audition a pair of his speakers. He's the guy who put the Linkwitz into Linkwitz-Riley speaker crossovers - in other words he's an audio god.

I have a pair of Hales Revelation III's New they ran about $2,200.00 i paid $925.00 http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/118/

[[1990]525]

Skimp out? Its a dell 24" ultra sharp... its like $700 and receives great review.
What good is your video card? I wouldn't have gone for anything but 2560 x 1600 and 30 inches if I was going to shell out the money for a quad-core and an 8800

[Jon K]

525']What good is your video card? I wouldn't have gone for anything but 2560 x 1600 and 30 inches if I was going to shell out the money for a quad-core and an 8800


Have you tried playing any real games @ 2560x1600 yet? It'll take 2 8800GTX to play Crysis at anything near that resolution. Additionally I don't really need to spend $2k on a monitor - I have enough cash outflow in my life right now :)

If you're not happy with a 42" monitor that does 1900x1200 well, good thing it's not yours! :D

[[1990]525]

Have you tried playing any real games @ 2560x1600 yet? It'll take 2 8800GTX to play Crysis at anything near that resolution. Additionally I don't really need to spend $2k on a monitor - I have enough cash outflow in my life right now :)

If you're not happy with a 42" monitor that does 1900x1200 well, good thing it's not yours! :D
A higher resolution and display area is good for a lot more than games, but if a 7600gt can handle supreme commander at 1680x1050 I'm sure an 8800 can handle crysis!(btw hdr lighting looks like **** anyways!)

[Jon K]

525']A higher resolution and display area is good for a lot more than games, but if a 7600gt can handle supreme commander at 1680x1050 I'm sure an 8800 can handle crysis!(btw hdr lighting looks like **** anyways!)

Probably need to stop assuming and start reading :)

Go see what kind of performance Crysis is pulling so far. I am adding a second 8800 GTX so I can run ANYTHING I want on 1920x1200. 2560x1600 is cool and all, but I would rather spend $2k on a turbo than $2k on a monitor right now.

I work 11 hr days - I have my PC for like, 4. $2k for 4 hrs a day is not worth it right now. I am still meaning to finish bioshock... but haven't got a chance!

[[1990]525]

Do you only use your computer for gaming :D

[Jon K]

525']Do you only use your computer for gaming :D

I do a lot on my computer from application development for the ECU project I help work on, to photo/video, to gaming, to cad work...

24" has never left me feeling like I needed more especially not at 1920x1200. What size is your monitor?

[[1990]525]

I do a lot on my computer from application development for the ECU project I help work on, to photo/video, to gaming, to cad work...

24" has never left me feeling like I needed more especially not at 1920x1200. What size is your monitor?
My system is quite old in comparison:

asus p5wd2 premium mobo
2gb pc2-5300 rated ram (tweaked latencies volt and frequency)
p d 805 (oced to just under 4ghz)
7600gt (pencil volt modded and oced memory and clock)
22" 1680x1050 chimei
650w psu
500 gb sata and a 400 gb pata drive
logitech z-2300 400 peak watt 2.1 speakers
total price: a little more than your gpu $800 :D (speakers a gift)

[Jon K]

525']My system is quite old in comparison:

asus p5wd2 premium mobo
2gb pc2-5300 rated ram (tweaked latencies volt and frequency)
p d 805 (oced to just under 4ghz)
7600gt (pencil volt modded and oced memory and clock)
22" 1680x1050 chimei
650w psu
500 gb sata and a 400 gb pata drive
logitech z-2300 400 peak watt 2.1 speakers
total price: a little more than your gpu $800 :D (speakers a gift)

So wait - you are hassling me about my choice in $700 monitors and you can't put up to back it up??? Kind of silly bro.

805 is weaksawz

[Ferret]

So wait - you are hassling me about my choice in $700 monitors and you can't put up to back it up??? Kind of silly bro.

805 is weaksawz

This sub thread has gone lol factor 10...

Seriously 24" is hueg and I'm still working with a 17" here at work which I find plenty big enough. I'm eyeing the 24s though cos their price has just collapsed.

The Pentium D though was intels biggest mistake >: ( the heat problems they have are staggering.

[Monastie]

my 667 celeron runs starcraft... thats all that matters :)

[Ferret]

my 667 celeron runs starcraft... thats all that matters :)

:o 667! That was the processor I put in my first 'not handed down' pc after I started working :D

[Jon K]

i had a celery 667 that went to over 950 mhz

[Sam-Son]

Hammer & Chisel have been working great for me

[[1990]525]

So wait - you are hassling me about my choice in $700 monitors and you can't put up to back it up??? Kind of silly bro.

805 is weaksawz
You ballsed out on everything but the monitor. That's all. Gees.

[Dave M]

Dudes,

can't believe I almost missed my chance to brag about my awsome set-up

700mhz pentium
64 MB of pure RAM
17" Acer monitor

Yeah, its got a vidoe card AND a sound card. Unfortunately, I've spilled beer and mixed drinks on the keyboard so a few kys ar stiky.

;)

You guys are always crackin me up.

Dave

[Ferret]

Dudes,

can't believe I almost missed my chance to brag about my awsome set-up

700mhz pentium
64 MB of pure RAM
17" Acer monitor

Yeah, its got a vidoe card AND a sound card. Unfortunately, I've spilled beer and mixed drinks on the keyboard so a few kys ar stiky.

;)

You guys are always crackin me up.

Dave

Maybe we should have a who has the lowest spec hardware still in service competition tooooo?

[Jon K]

525']You ballsed out on everything but the monitor. That's all. Gees.

I also do not have Armani socks... ....

[winfred]

that'd probably be moms computer, the mobo is pre atx :D


Maybe we should have a who has the lowest spec hardware still in service competition tooooo?

[Jon K]

that'd probably be moms computer, the mobo is pre atx :D

AT FTW!

Turbo button on my old 486 DX2. REALLY SLOW, and with turbo button in, SLOW!

Awesome!!111!

[Ferret]

AT FTW!

Turbo button on my old 486 DX2. REALLY SLOW, and with turbo button in, SLOW!

Awesome!!111!

Hay! My 286 used to have a turbo button - normal 8MHz, turbo 16MHz!

I've got a 486DX4 still in service as a router at a mates place :D

That and I've still got an IBM/AT mothballed somewhere, still use its keyboard if I want to piss people of clacka-clacka-clacka