Which is easier to maintenance M5 3.6 or 3.8 ???

[Iwo]

Hi Everybody !!! I'm new to this forum :-) and I would like to say you all have great cars !!! Jon K you are the MAN .
Currently I have 2006 M3 Conv and I decided to change it to e34 M5
I used to have 1992 525i and I have to say it was way more classy then e46 M3. Some might look at me like I'm crazy.., but e34s to me have souls and anyway after warranty on e46 expires I don't think it's going to cost less then to take care e34 M5.
That to be said, I live in Los Angeles and I'm trying to decide which one is better to go, US 3.6 or Euro 3.8 I would prefer Euro because it has more HP but what about maintenance ??? Is it going to be more difficult to get parts for 3.8 here in US ??? Is 3.6 much more economical ? I'm planning to use the car as a daily driver, knowing I'll have take care of it carefully.
What do you think ? I appreciate all the help. I wan

[BigKriss]

keep the m3. why would you want to go from a e46 m3 to an e34 m5 is beyond me. even though i love the e34, the e46 is superior in nearly every way. anyway the 3.8L never came to the usa.

[Jon K]

keep the m3. why would you want to go from a e46 m3 to an e34 m5 is beyond me. even though i love the e34, the e46 is superior in nearly every way. anyway the 3.8L never came to the usa.

Welcome Iwo.

Kriss - the E46 M3 is a very plain car to drive on the streets, IMHO. That S54 is very reminiscent of the S14 but with 2 more cylinders. There's not that much peak power in that car, and the power band is VERY high in RPM for a street car. Did you know 2002 E46 M3 curb weight is 3415 lbs and the E34 platform has weights that range from 3484 to like 3520 lbs or so based on all the findings I could come up with. What you get is the impression of a faster car, but really that S54 only dyno ~240 - 250 rwhp, which is less than what the S38 3.6L tend to make while the 3.6L offers a much more usable powerband and torque line.

Just my thoughts!

S38B36 and S38B38 maintenance should be the same - with larger bore you might have the risk of the HG failing easier, but I am not sure you can quantify that. When it comes to turbo charging an S38 I plan using a 3.6L stock bore because of the wall spacing between cylinders. 3.8L is nice for an NA car, but 3.6L is more likely to hold boost.

[Anthony (M5 in Calgary)]

S38B36 (3.6l) is more reliable if you keep the stock rev limiter, higher and you run into problems with the crank nose. Simple Motronic ECU with single coil.

S38B38 (3.8l) is prone to detonation problems and toasted rod bearings but has a beefed up crank hub design and can take higher RPMs. Complex ECU with 6 coils in an early design prone to failure.

I'd go with the 3.6...

[BigKriss]

well if you owned a e46 m3, would you sell it to buy a e34 m5?


Welcome Iwo.

Kriss - the E46 M3 is a very plain car to drive on the streets, IMHO. That S54 is very reminiscent of the S14 but with 2 more cylinders. There's not that much peak power in that car, and the power band is VERY high in RPM for a street car. Did you know 2002 E46 M3 curb weight is 3415 lbs and the E34 platform has weights that range from 3484 to like 3520 lbs or so based on all the findings I could come up with. What you get is the impression of a faster car, but really that S54 only dyno ~240 - 250 rwhp, which is less than what the S38 3.6L tend to make while the 3.6L offers a much more usable powerband and torque line.

Just my thoughts!

S38B36 and S38B38 maintenance should be the same - with larger bore you might have the risk of the HG failing easier, but I am not sure you can quantify that. When it comes to turbo charging an S38 I plan using a 3.6L stock bore because of the wall spacing between cylinders. 3.8L is nice for an NA car, but 3.6L is more likely to hold boost.

[Jon K]

well if you owned a e46 m3, would you sell it to buy a e34 m5?

If I bought an E46 M3 in the first place, I would sell it to buy a clean E34 M5. I have different motives than others, but the S38 engine is by far more desirable than an S54. Between the mechanical failure in S54 and the rasp, the S36 is light years ahead on my list of desirables than the M3.

[Iwo]

Thank you Jon K
That's my point also. My M3 is a very nice car.., but first it's a convertible (which I'll never buy again ..), second the car's engine get all the power above 4000rpm and considering that you don't feel the speed I get in trouble all the time... (drifting on every on-ramp is not a way to daily drive..)
I already found 3.6 1991 with 61K miles and Euro 3.8 1993 with 89K miles.
Now I'm trying to decide which one should I take it...
Decisions.. decisions... I'm concerned that since 3.8 never came to US it is going to be harder to find parts... and more expensive.... (actually 3.8 is 6K$ more to buy..)
I don't know..........

[repenttokyo]

keep the m3. why would you want to go from a e46 m3 to an e34 m5 is beyond me. even though i love the e34, the e46 is superior in nearly every way. anyway the 3.8L never came to the usa.


It came to Canada....And I don't agree with you that the e46 is superior, it's a heavy car, 2 door only (some people want 4 doors) and the engines have their fair share of finicky problems. A lot of those motors were replaced under warranty.

I also find the e34 M5 to be more attractive looking than the e46.

[repenttokyo]

for the 3.6 L - are there easy bolt ons to bring its power up to the 3.8's level?

[e34.535i.sport]

I owned an e46 before I switched to my e34, and its the best move i ever made. The e34 blows the e46 away in so many areas - particularly in the looks department! I also found the handling left a lot to be desired in the e46. Although the M3 is quicker to 60mph on paper (Just), the M5 is torquier so it'd feel amazing to drive. I'm sure M5 drivers will back me up on this one.

I sure wish i was in your position, I know what i'd do!

[Paul in NZ]

Dont know if its just me but i dont know if a E34 M5 is actually suited to a daily driver role.....to me they are very special cars,and nice ones must be thin on the ground now.....The M5 would qualify for me as a garage queen,
I wouldnt even consider a m3 of any vintage to be as special...my two cents.
In a couple of years i will start to look to import a rhd 3.8 M5,but it will have to be a minter.

[nirvana19]

Dont know if its just me but i dont know if a E34 M5 is actually suited to a daily driver role.....to me they are very special cars,and nice ones must be thin on the ground now.....The M5 would qualify for me as a garage queen,
I wouldnt even consider a m3 of any vintage to be as special...my two cents.
In a couple of years i will start to look to import a rhd 3.8 M5,but it will have to be a minter.

What about those E30 M3 EVOs, i'd have to say they qualify as special.. Of course I'd personally rather have an e34 M5

[Sam-Son]

People keep saying to me that with all the money I put into my car I should save up and get an E46 M3 "It's lighter and more powerful" then they go on to say it has 330 HP. well the E46 isn't that light like Jon said it weighs about the same as an E34. and I've seen dynos and with a couple of Turner Motorsport upgrades it get 270 HP. So I figure I'll just mod my E34 which I like alot better than an E46 M3. About the handling, My father had 3 E46 325Ci Sport package cars, and they were some of the best handling cars I've ever driven. No E34 can compare to how they handled the steering is so much more direct with no play in the steering and they corner so flat and inspire so much confidence. For those of you who say an E34 handles better than an E46 I wanna know what you did to your suspension cus I want those mods

[Paul in NZ]

What about those E30 M3 EVOs, i'd have to say they qualify as special.. Of course I'd personally rather have an e34 M5

i didnt mean thay werent nice/special/good cars...just not as far as I am concerened.

[repenttokyo]

About the handling, My father had 3 E46 325Ci Sport package cars, and they were some of the best handling cars I've ever driven. No E34 can compare to how they handled the steering is so much more direct with no play in the steering and they corner so flat and inspire so much confidence. For those of you who say an E34 handles better than an E46 I wanna know what you did to your suspension cus I want those mods

could it be all the old rubber in your suspension bushings etc?

[Sam-Son]

could it be all the old rubber in your suspension bushings etc?
I have no idea. I know my shocks are gonna need replacing soon. and my control arm bushings are shot..Again. The car has 172k miles on it so I wouldn''t be surprised if somethings needed replacement. Do E34's really handle as well as E46's?

[Brandon J]

If I had a choice I would get the 3.8. Why? Both the 3.6 and 3.8 do need their preventative maintenance. The 3.6 could use a crank hub the 3.8 could use changed rod bearings. After driving both, I would get the 3.8L because it is more civilized with the extra torque down low while still being fun. The flywheel could be swapped to the 3.6L for more freer revving. But besides that, the 3.8L came with more options and functions. Now, coming from an e46, those few extra options in the e34 ,like being able to change the stiffness of the shocks, is a great feature. Performance chips are available for both engines. For the 3.8L, that would probably be the only engine upgrade you would need. Lastly, since 3.8s were produced later than the 3.6L, the 3.8s are fresher. Less wear and tear in general.

As far as power, it sounds like you are not thinking about forced induction. So, either of the M5s are good choices. I still beat e36 M3s exercising superchargers.

Good luck with your decision and whichever you choose, I am sure you will be happy.

[nixter]

the 3.8L M5 never came to canada. The last year was 93 for which the north american cars were still produced with the 3.6L engine. In Europe the 93s had begun to incorporate the 3.8L engines.


It came to Canada....And I don't agree with you that the e46 is superior, it's a heavy car, 2 door only (some people want 4 doors) and the engines have their fair share of finicky problems. A lot of those motors were replaced under warranty.

I also find the e34 M5 to be more attractive looking than the e46.

[repenttokyo]

the 3.8L M5 never came to canada. The last year was 93 for which the north american cars were still produced with the 3.6L engine. In Europe the 93s had begun to incorporate the 3.8L engines.

it might not have been officially sold in Canada, but they were imported, and there are 3.8L's here....

[e34.535i.sport]

I have no idea. I know my shocks are gonna need replacing soon. and my control arm bushings are shot..Again. The car has 172k miles on it so I wouldn''t be surprised if somethings needed replacement. Do E34's really handle as well as E46's?

After replacing ALL the suspension bushes and ball joints on my 17 year old e34 it handles a thousand times better than my 6 year old (at the time) e46 ever did! I found the e46 to be very tail-end happy in comparison to my e34 (and that had traction control!) as well.

I think this is all personal opinion however, others may see it differently?

Overall the e46 seemed like a less well made car too, things seemed to go wrong that shouldn't if you know what i mean. Seems to me that BMW peaked in the 80s/90s particularly in design... Although the e65 is outta this world.

[Sam-Son]

After replacing ALL the suspension bushes and ball joints on my 17 year old e34 it handles a thousand times better than my 6 year old (at the time) e46 ever did! I found the e46 to be very tail-end happy in comparison to my e34 (and that had traction control!) as well.

I think this is all personal opinion however, others may see it differently?

Overall the e46 seemed like a less well made car too, things seemed to go wrong that shouldn't if you know what i mean. Seems to me that BMW peaked in the 80s/90s particularly in design... Although the e65 is outta this world.
actually as far as reliability is concerned My father ordered his brand new and within a week it had to back to the shop acouple of times for stupid little things, but on a brand new 30k bimmer it shouldn't happen. Which E46 did you have?

[ILoveMPower]

The 3.8 is defintely a lot smoother and better for tooling around town, but they normally also have EDC which is insanely expensive to fix when it goes.

I personally love the raw power delivery from 3.6, and the shorter gearing makes it a tad bit quicker as well, although it would be nice to have a 6th gear on the highway.

It all depends what you are looking for, personally narrow-snouted and 3.6L is what I prefer. Good luck in your choice and don't have too much fun

[e34.535i.sport]

actually as far as reliability is concerned My father ordered his brand new and within a week it had to back to the shop acouple of times for stupid little things, but on a brand new 30k bimmer it shouldn't happen. Which E46 did you have?

I've heard a few stories like that, and for that kind of money you'd expect better really. I blame it on too much technology - more to go wrong and more expensive to fix when it does! I love the simplicity of my car now, but one thing i do miss in the summer is the air con. I had a 1999 316 with the 1.9L. Had to replace quite a few things in the time i owned it considering the age of the car and it wasn't as reliable as it should've been really.

Wouldn't change the black beauty for anything now - i'm keeping it forever!!!!!

[Sam-Son]

I've heard a few stories like that, and for that kind of money you'd expect better really. I blame it on too much technology - more to go wrong and more expensive to fix when it does! I love the simplicity of my car now, but one thing i do miss in the summer is the air con. I had a 1999 316 with the 1.9L. Had to replace quite a few things in the time i owned it considering the age of the car and it wasn't as reliable as it should've been really.

Wouldn't change the black beauty for anything now - i'm keeping it forever!!!!!
Oh a 99 316. Well even though I've never driven one of those I willing to take a punt and say the 01 and 04 325Ci sports are much improved. wait your 5er doesn't have A/C?!

[Brandon J]

I am glad you brought that up. '92 and later 3.6s came with a taller 3.73 gearing. As far as the EDC, if they go, there are other alternatives for fixing them. There are even cheap reports of taking the shocks to trucking shops that know how to rebuild hydraulics.

After doing suspensions on about a dozen e34s including several M5s, and eliminating self-leveling, I do like how I personally can tailor a suspension to me. Howeer, I still like the wheel travel of the EDC suspension and how it keeps the tires on the ground.

After tuning a few S38 3.6s, the throttle sensor is better in the 3.8 as it can read partial throttle for fine computer adjustments.

My ideal S38B38 would be to change the flywheel to 3.6L, change the diff gearing, add a chip, change swaybars, and if I wanted more, change the cams. Now that would be nice. I still love how I built up my e34 using the 3.6L and how it benefits the lighter weight.

lol, both options are still awesome options!




The 3.8 is defintely a lot smoother and better for tooling around town, but they normally also have EDC which is insanely expensive to fix when it goes.

I personally love the raw power delivery from 3.6, and the shorter gearing makes it a tad bit quicker as well, although it would be nice to have a 6th gear on the highway.

It all depends what you are looking for, personally narrow-snouted and 3.6L is what I prefer. Good luck in your choice and don't have too much fun

[Sam-Son]

Check out Euromcars.com they always have a couple of cars
like this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-E34-M5-3-8-Euro-1-Owner-340HP-S38-Motorsport-Rare_W0QQitemZ180166062666QQihZ008QQcategoryZ13318 2QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Sam-Son]

also got this off their site
http://www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=12

[e34.535i.sport]

Oh a 99 316. Well even though I've never driven one of those I willing to take a punt and say the 01 and 04 325Ci sports are much improved. wait your 5er doesn't have A/C?!

I'd hope so!

Nope, no air con for me unfortunately... although its probably a good thing considering the amount of juice it uses already!

[Sam-Son]

I'd hope so!

Nope, no air con for me unfortunately... although its probably a good thing considering the amount of juice it uses already!
Actually I try and keep my A/C off. the moment I switch it on I can instantly feel the power loss

[NovceGuru]

but really that S54 only dyno ~240 - 250 rwhp,

I thought the s54 had like 300 or something hp?

[repenttokyo]

I thought the s54 had like 300 or something hp?


333hp at the crank. the dyno measures hp at the wheels.

[ILoveMPower]

Brandon! Please stop with the teasing! I'm about to run out for a quick S38 flogging trip!

I love all BMWs, and all things BMW (even the downfalls), but NOTHING compares to the feeling I get every time I drive the M5. Whether I'm babying it around getting stares from the locals, or driving the tar out of it, I just can't seem to wipe the smile off my face.

This is something no other "newer, better, faster" BMW has been able to do for me.

S38 I salute you!


I am glad you brought that up. '92 and later 3.6s came with a taller 3.73 gearing. As far as the EDC, if they go, there are other alternatives for fixing them. There are even cheap reports of taking the shocks to trucking shops that know how to rebuild hydraulics.

After doing suspensions on about a dozen e34s including several M5s, and eliminating self-leveling, I do like how I personally can tailor a suspension to me. Howeer, I still like the wheel travel of the EDC suspension and how it keeps the tires on the ground.

After tuning a few S38 3.6s, the throttle sensor is better in the 3.8 as it can read partial throttle for fine computer adjustments.

My ideal S38B38 would be to change the flywheel to 3.6L, change the diff gearing, add a chip, change swaybars, and if I wanted more, change the cams. Now that would be nice. I still love how I built up my e34 using the 3.6L and how it benefits the lighter weight.

lol, both options are still awesome options!

[Brandon J]

He he he.....;)

You know, the S38s are so amazing. What I realized with these engines is how little is needed to add power. I mean little. In fact, most M5 owners just add a chip. Thats it. More power, more rpms, more fun, less stress from tinkering with mods that need work to balance out. I spend way less time with the maintenance than I would if I were to do mods on it. Hmmm, start with 315 base horsepower with ///M factory engineering and testing, now I know I just need to massage the beautiful inline 6 a little to get it where I want it.

Gotta love the Vrooooooooom 7200+rpm, shift, snap my neck from the direct power of 6 throttle bodies, vrooooom, see ya centrifugal supercharged e36 M3, vroooooom...........open mouths gaze not from the speed, but from a 15 year old family 4 door embarrasing modern sports cars with ease. No drama. Smooth power delivery. Predictable naturally aspirated torque that spans almost 4,000 rpm for its sweet spot.

People ask if I have an intake and they are suprised when I say no. It's just the sweet singing (or sing ///M) from the stock engine.:D




Brandon! Please stop with the teasing! I'm about to run out for a quick S38 flogging trip!

I love all BMWs, and all things BMW (even the downfalls), but NOTHING compares to the feeling I get every time I drive the M5. Whether I'm babying it around getting stares from the locals, or driving the tar out of it, I just can't seem to wipe the smile off my face.

This is something no other "newer, better, faster" BMW has been able to do for me.

S38 I salute you!

[Sam-Son]

He he he.....;)

You know, the S38s are so amazing. What I realized with these engines is how little is needed to add power. I mean little. In fact, most M5 owners just add a chip. Thats it. More power, more rpms, more fun, less stress from tinkering with mods that need work to balance out. I spend way less time with the maintenance than I would if I were to do mods on it. Hmmm, start with 315 base horsepower with ///M factory engineering and testing, now I know I just need to massage the beautiful inline 6 a little to get it where I want it.

Gotta love the Vrooooooooom 7200+rpm, shift, snap my neck from the direct power of 6 throttle bodies, vrooooom, see ya centrifugal supercharged e36 M3, vroooooom...........open mouths gaze not from the speed, but from a 15 year old family 4 door embarrasing modern sports cars with ease. No drama. Smooth power delivery. Predictable naturally aspirated torque that spans almost 4,000 rpm for its sweet spot.

People ask if I have an intake and they are suprised when I say no. It's just the sweet singing (or sing ///M) from the stock engine.:D
OK now you really need to stop because I'm drooling all over my key board