Mercedes 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth

[Eagle]

Saw one today and got me thinking any had any experience with this, what are they like?. Look quite nice.

Tempted to try one if there were any local. Only problem i see atm is lack of parts compared to BMW around here.

[winfred]

rare and hard to get crap for, 201 body's are a step down in general quality from benzes of years past

[cary]

They are expensive and not any faster than an E30 325is. I would pass on it, even if the price is tempting, unless you are just dying to have a Mercedes with a 5 speed transmission.

[Antrieb]

They are pretty cool car with some heritage behind them.



http://www.monnay-racing.ch/images/ex-voitures/190evo2/Moteur2.jpg

http://www.k-t-b.de/bilder/walter/w3.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/alexwh0/190e2qu3.jpg
^ This last one is a regular 190e.

http://www.16valve.com/

[Eagle]

Thanks for the info, figured as much. Was really going to buy one due to parts as mentioned thou if one comes up local will have to see what they drive like.

325i manuals arent what i would call cheap here in NZ. Could nearly buy 2 avg E34 or E32 6 cylinders for the price of one

[Ferret]

I didnt know they stuck a cossie engine into mercs?

My uncle used to live around the corner from the cosworth factory, noisy beasts lol.

[Omega]

The Merc 2.3 16v was known as the rich mans cossie.... The poor plebs (like me) had the Ford Cossies to play with.

Nice cars in their day but wouldn't trade the BM for one now.

[Antrieb]

It's funny, on all the 16v forums people brag about how much better the car is than an e30. Maybe a 325i but certainly not the m3.

[Ross]

Get the 2.6 if you want a W201. The Cosworth is expensive to keep running and the base four is... well.

[Sam-Son]

They are pretty cool car with some heritage behind them.
http://www.monnay-racing.ch/images/ex-voitures/190evo2/Moteur2.jpg
That CF airbox is bigger than the engine.
And I wouldn't get one just because its a stick Merc. Mercedes stick shift are awful

[RallyD]

there was an Evolution model produced for racing homologation. It is pictured above with the large rear spoiler. The 2.3 16v, M3, and Escort Cosworth were all in the DTM series and competed against each other.
My buddy has all three in his garage.

[leicesterboy15]

I actually went to test drive a few before I bought the 535i Sport. I had a 190e at the time and I really wanted a 2.3 cossie.They are fast but they feel faster than they actually are. I was surprised at how much fun they were to drive, rear wheels spin in every gear, really easy to get the back end out. The reason I decided against was because you just got much more in the BM and it was a much more modern car, more grown up but still a hoot to drive.

I've heard the 2.3 is bullet proof and will do starship mileage, all 190's were over engineered and built like tanks, the 2.5 is less reliable but still very good.

If you get one look out for the dog-leg box, its rarer and it will hold it's value better and its a lot of fun!

On my budget at the time I could only afford an earlier one and I couldn't justify spending so much on such an old car when it was my daily driver and I was going to do a lot of mileage. The 535 was cheaper and 5 years newer. There was also the issue of parts being pricey, you can get them as there are loads of enthusiasts but the biggest thing to look out for is rust, especially underneath the bodykit, this is what killed most of them - that and wrapping them round trees!! If you find a minter they cost M5 money.

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

Look after it and if it has a good pedigree it`ll last,the only problem is the exhaust manifold on RHD ones which cooks the steering if the mounts go soft. good friend has one with 320k on it and yes the body is not as good as older ones but its bloody quick in the real world, way quicker than 325/328`s, nearly as good as a 2.5 M3 but more comfortable.

[Antrieb]

That CF airbox is bigger than the engine.
And I wouldn't get one just because its a stick Merc. Mercedes stick shift are awful
Oh yeah? It is the same Getrag 5-speed as the e30 m3 uses.

[Antrieb]

I actually went to test drive a few before I bought the 535i Sport. I had a 190e at the time and I really wanted a 2.3 cossie.They are fast but they feel faster than they actually are. I was surprised at how much fun they were to drive, rear wheels spin in every gear, really easy to get the back end out. The reason I decided against was because you just got much more in the BM and it was a much more modern car, more grown up but still a hoot to drive.

I've heard the 2.3 is bullet proof and will do starship mileage, all 190's were over engineered and built like tanks, the 2.5 is less reliable but still very good.

If you get one look out for the dog-leg box, its rarer and it will hold it's value better and its a lot of fun!

On my budget at the time I could only afford an earlier one and I couldn't justify spending so much on such an old car when it was my daily driver and I was going to do a lot of mileage. The 535 was cheaper and 5 years newer. There was also the issue of parts being pricey, you can get them as there are loads of enthusiasts but the biggest thing to look out for is rust, especially underneath the bodykit, this is what killed most of them - that and wrapping them round trees!! If you find a minter they cost M5 money.The 2.3 16v's were only available in the US in '86+'87. Nearly all of the ~2500 delivered to the US had the dog-leg 5-speed the e30 m3's used. The others had automatics.

[Sam-Son]

Oh yeah? It is the same Getrag 5-speed as the e30 m3 uses.
I'm talking about newer like 01 or 03 mercs theyre so rubbery. Never driven an older merc stick but if theyre anything like the new ones I wouldn't get one...then again I'm not crazy about mercs

[RockJock]

an absolutely wicked little car ..... two years ago i just about sold my e34 to buy a pristine 2.3-16 ..... I was impressed with the solid build quality, the 500E (the infamous porsche-benz) was another solid high quality car (both far superior to the e34 build quality wise) ....later on when daimler-benz was chryslerized quality went to $hit (ie., compared to the stuff coming out of Stuttgart before)....

some heritage ....

----snip ----

August 1983 Nardo speed record 190 E 2.3-16

The introduction of the 190-series was something completely new for Mercedes. It was the first 'small' car for the brand and was therefore called baby Benz. The introduction of the sporty 16v model brougt the brand Mercedes into a market where it had to prove itself as a newcomer. Therefore Mercedes arranged a record run aimed at proving their reliability. To succeed this record run Mercedes did extensive testing during the beginning of 1983.



Southern Italy, August 13 - 21, 1983. In the early morning of August 13, 1983, under strict supervision of 102 FIA sport commisioners three Mercedes 190 E 2.3-16's (labeled green, red and white) started out on a 50,000 km high-speed test run, demanding any amount of stamina on the part of cars, drivers and test department staff. According to the regulations the cars for the record runs were just slightly modified compared to the future production cars. The bodywork was lowered by 15 millimeters, the front apron was extended downwards by 20 millimeters, the fan was removed and the power steering was replaced by mechanical steering. The Nardo cars also featured self-leveling suspension on the front axle to keep the ground clearance at a constant level. The gearbox had a longer 5th gear ratio to reach 250 km/h at 6000 rpm. Reverse gear was unnecessary and therefore removed, this would have costed 0,4 km/h top speed. The record track in Nardo is precisely 12.64026 kilometers long, has a diameter of some four kilometers and slightly banked lanes, hereby permitting driving almost without lateral forces even in the speed range over 240 km/h. According to the engineers' calculations, the cars were to reach the 50,000 km target in the morning of the eighth day, provided there were no problems. The pit stops were performed as scheduled and the 18 drivers (six per car) were up to the strain. Lap times were to be three minutes and five seconds to reach the targeted average speed of 240 km/h including pit stops. Due to the cars' low Cw value of 0.30, they were expected to reach somewhat higher top speeds than the production versions. Every two-and-a-half hours, the cars came in for refueling and a change of driver during a 20-second pit stop. The fuel tanks had a capacity of 160 liters instead of the standard 70 liter tank. Fuel consumption during the record run was a bit over 20l per 100 km's. The heavily strained rear tires had to be replaced every 8,500 kilometers and the front tires every 17,000 kilometers. During these five-minute tire change breaks, the oil and oil filters were also replaced and the valve clearance was checked. In total 243 stops were made. The mechanics changed every 14 hours and had to do a pitstop every 50 minutes. To protect the headlamp lenses against soiling and damage during the daytime, they were covered by plastic caps. The radiator mask was fitted with a quick-change insect screen to prevent clogging of the radiator. After 201 hours, 39 minutes and 43 seconds, two of the cars had clocked up 50,000 kilometers with an average speed of 247 km/h and the 190 2.3-16 achieved three world records and nine international class records. The replacement parts carried on board in compliance with the regulations had not been required - the cars had been running perfectly smoothly despite the extreme strain. The third car was laid up for three hours by a broken distributor rotor arm - an item costing just a few cents, which the pit crew were not allowed to replace but had to repair. For enthusiasts, the Mercedes that took part in the record run can still be seen in the Mercedes Museum in Stuttgart (Germany).

----snip----

http://www.smileeverymile.com/Templates/Mercedes_the%20car%20body.htm
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/great_drives/0702_1988_bmw_m3_vs_1987_mercedes_benz_190e_23_16/index.html

[Sam-Son]

interesting stuff

[attack eagle]

they certainly are better looking than the normal 190e, dunno if it is the kit, headlghts or both, but they look sporty... even the later 2.6 looks stodgy.
There are 3 on ebay right now , FYI.
I wanted to get one for the wife, but she wants automatic, so I guess I need to find out how much the smooth non us headlights cost and how much the amg rims are.

[winfred]

that's pretty much the opposite of everything i've learned in 10 years of selling parts from and for 190e's, rotten little shitbox rattle traps. our loving name for them is mercedes tercel, ya wanna have fun with a 2.3?! pour a bottle of slick-50 in the engine and see how long it takes for it to start spinning rod bearings, i've lost track of how many 2.3 engines i've sold that way but it's a **** load



I've heard the 2.3 is bullet proof and will do starship mileage, all 190's were over engineered and built like tanks, the 2.5 is less reliable but still very good.

[cary]

I just looked through my BMW M Series gold portfolio, which contain's several articles that compare the 2.3-16 with BMW's. According to a 1987 Automobile review of the M3, the US spec 2.3-16 put out 167 HP, weighed 3100 pounds and did 0-60 in 8.1 seconds. Some test in europe show the 0-60 closer to 7.5 seconds. I stand by my original thought, 400 pounds heavier than an E30 325i with identical horsepower = slower. The later European only 2.5-16 may be an entirely different story.

[RockJock]

more cool stuff here: http://www.16valve.com/ including a Top Gear feature on the 2.5 16 .........

[94_e34_525i]

bayerische motoren werke uber alas!

[ryan roopnarine]

........ mercedes tercel.........

now wait just a g@dd@mned minute, i don't remember mercedes terrell doing anything to you (nsfw), there's a bmw involved, so the picture is relevant to our interests http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d180/porschedrifter/8a5ca64a.jpg (http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d180/porschedrifter/8a5ca64a.jpg)

[leicesterboy15]

The 2.3 16v's were only available in the US in '86+'87. Nearly all of the ~2500 delivered to the US had the dog-leg 5-speed the e30 m3's used. The others had automatics.

In the UK i believe they had a standard 5 speed as well as the dog-leg and automatic.


that's pretty much the opposite of everything i've learned in 10 years of selling parts from and for 190e's, rotten little shitbox rattle traps. our loving name for them is mercedes tercel, ya wanna have fun with a 2.3?! pour a bottle of slick-50 in the engine and see how long it takes for it to start spinning rod bearings, i've lost track of how many 2.3 engines i've sold that way but it's a **** load

I must admit rust is a problem but you're the first person I've heard who complains about reliability of Mercs from that era, i've had several and while they weren't the most dynamic they were very well built and never broke down - in fact they were all much better built than my gf's much newer CLK!
- although it sounds like you've had more experience than me! If it wasn't my daily driver I'd get one quick as the price is only going to go up....and where else can you make money and have fun at the same time :)

[winfred]

don't know who she is but shes magicly delicious :p(i) :D


now wait just a g@dd@mned minute, i don't remember mercedes terrell doing anything to you (nsfw), there's a bmw involved, so the picture is relevant to our interests http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d180/porschedrifter/8a5ca64a.jpg (http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d180/porschedrifter/8a5ca64a.jpg)

[e345spd]

Some people need to get their facts straight about merc build quality. In no way do older mercs have better build quality than BMW. I have worked on several mercs and BMWs from the same age, and the seats, electronics, and lots of the little plastic parts do not hold up well in the mercs. The engines do pretty well though, except for a '89 300ce that I know of, just busted one of the lifters. Also Mercedes are never as sporty as BMW's.

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

Agreed that M-B`s are not as driver friendly but if you doubt the reliability of old 84-90 mercs them queue at any 3rd world airport and see whats the most common car in the row! Not to mention the favourite car of hamas,Fatah and ye taliban.

[RockJock]

+1

[cary]

Agreed that M-B`s are not as driver friendly but if you doubt the reliability of old 84-90 mercs them queue at any 3rd world airport and see whats the most common car in the row! Not to mention the favourite car of hamas,Fatah and ye taliban.

Keep in mind, what you see are not the 190 class, but the W123 and W124 E class cars, which were much better built. Also, most you will are diesels, in the 240 or otherwise basic version, slower than crap (about 70 horsepower) and run 500,000+ miles between rebuild if any type of maintenance is done to them.

[whiskychaser]

Agreed that M-B`s are not as driver friendly but if you doubt the reliability of old 84-90 mercs them queue at any 3rd world airport and see whats the most common car in the row! Not to mention the favourite car of hamas,Fatah and ye taliban.
True, but go to the Hamburg and I think you will find the Mercs are going and being replaced by Skodas. Like Passats but with stretched floorpan making for very large door front and back. Not as much plastic as Mercs. Nor dare I say it, as drab as the latest BMs. Hang my head in shame

[CharlesAFerg]

Semi on topic, but what about the W140 S-Class cars? Reliable? Particularly the later variants (97-00) 500 V8, not the 600 V12, because that's just too much work.

[winfred]

i haven't worked on one (and won't) but i know the parts are ungodly expensive from the **** we've ordered and sold, i mean ****ing holy **** expensive a 129 or 140 will put you in the poor house


Semi on topic, but what about the W140 S-Class cars? Reliable? Particularly the later variants (97-00) 500 V8, not the 600 V12, because that's just too much work.

[e345spd]

Actually my parents used to have a 83' 240D. Still running strong at almost 400k, so I'm not gonna lie, those old diesels are amazing for reliability, but not speed...

[winfred]

my first car was a hand me down 75 240d, it's only saving grace was a 4 speed, 240d auto's were traffic hazards


Actually my parents used to have a 83' 240D. Still running strong at almost 400k, so I'm not gonna lie, those old diesels are amazing for reliability, but not speed...