How to get 300HP from 525i ????

[Iwo]

Ok, so I already got my donor for manual transmission and now is time to plan the game for more power.
I plan to have 300HP and not sure SC or Turbo...???
Any ideas how to get that HP ???

[cary]

Sell it and buy a 540i, much cheaper and more reliable than a turbo 525i with a ton of miles.

[Ferret]

Sell it and buy a 540i, much cheaper and more reliable than a turbo 525i with a ton of miles.

That's the second time this week I've seen someone tread on someones ideas on this board!

Iwo, have a chat with jon k, he's the turbo mad genious around here :D

[Dave M]

60k is a ton of miles?

[Incantation]

that's hardly treading.. this is probably the most sensible option for the guy

[cary]

60k is a ton of miles?

I didn't catch the mileage. I do stand by my original position, taking a automatic 525i, converting it to a manual, and putting a turbo on it, will cost $5000+ and take countless hours. The result will be a bastarized questionable car. A nice car like his with 60,000 miles should bring $5000-6000 easily, and for $8000 he can get a clean E34 540i, or for $12000-15000 a good E39 540i, both with six speeds.

[wjbell]

I didn't catch the mileage. I do stand by my original position, taking a automatic 525i, converting it to a manual, and putting a turbo on it, will cost $5000+ and take countless hours. The result will be a bastarized questionable car. A nice car like his with 60,000 miles should bring $5000-6000 easily, and for $8000 he can get a clean E34 540i, or for $12000-15000 a good E39 540i, both with six speeds.

Agreed. Too much work converting and upgrading. Sell it and buy a 540.

[jjdickm]

I'd rather have a lighter 525i turbo with 300hp than a heavier 540i with 300hp. although the 540 is a very sweet car. I've seen 1997 e39 540 going for 8 grand locally. good luck.

[Iwo]

I thought about it.. and I'm staying with my 525i.
I took it to mechanic and he was very amazed how the car clean is.
Not a single oil drop anywhere... bottom is like new. It's a CA car from one owner....
I more rather stay with it then buy a car with more miles and rust.. and unknown history. I already found a manual donor that I'm going to use so I'll have other parts also.

The main thing is how to get more power......!!!!!!!
I was thinking Turbo+racing pistons+headers and some other stuff..., but my knowledge is not great in technical side of it.... that's why I asked for help and ideas

[cary]

I'm not trying to ruin what you want to do, but you are really going to spend a lot of money for little gain. From what you are saying, you lack the skills to do the work yourself. You are going to take a very nice car, that will command a premium as it stands and hack it up.

To pay someone to swap the tranny, you are going to be looking at $2000+ for labor.

To do the engine mods you are contemplating, you are talking $1500 in labor if you don't open the engine up. When you discuss swapping pistons, start raising that minimum labor to $3000+. All together you are looking at $10,000 + for what you want to do. When you are all done, you will have a car that is worth less than it is now.

With this, you haven't even discussed suspension, wheels and tires, all of which you will want to upgrade to be compatible with the faster car. Figure another $2500 easy.

Fast cars need better brakes, I won't even add that in. Were at $12,500 on a good day, plus the value of the car, so $18,000 or so.

I know that you don't want to hear this, but at the end of the day it is not worth doing this. Start with something faster to begin with. A nice E39 540i sport is going to have all of this stuff, be as fast, and will hold it's value much better.

[wjbell]

I thought about it.. and I'm staying with my 525i.
I took it to mechanic and he was very amazed how the car clean is.
Not a single oil drop anywhere... bottom is like new. It's a CA car from one owner....
I more rather stay with it then buy a car with more miles and rust.. and unknown history. I already found a manual donor that I'm going to use so I'll have other parts also.

The main thing is how to get more power......!!!!!!!
I was thinking Turbo+racing pistons+headers and some other stuff..., but my knowledge is not great in technical side of it.... that's why I asked for help and ideas

Listen to the advice of the people here that are knowledgeable in these things (not necessarily me). You're going to pay through the nose to have this stuff done and end up with a fast car worth less than it is now. Why not just buy a fast car that holds it's value because it's unmodified and spend less doing it?

[Turbo Ready]

Ask JonK to build an engine for you with one of the turbos he has :D

As the author above mentioned, lots of the guys here give very sound advice and have hands on experience on the cars.

[attack eagle]

yeah, I hate to say it but the less expensive option is to just buy what you want... a 540i6


But since you insist. swap the tranny and diff... autos should have 4.10 rear end and sticks are much much taller.

Stop, see if the car is "good enough" for you.

If not collect up your $5k dollars, and surf the forums for someone selling off a supercharger... I know there was one recently that had already been set up to work on 93-95 e34s and came with the chip as well for around $3k.
Will it give you 300 WHP? probably not but 300 crank is doable.

[Sam-Son]

paah If you like the 525 stick with it! People said I was nuts for wanting to drop major coin to convert my car to stick. You already found a donor car so jsut do the swap. You'll never find another 525 with only 60k miles on it. I'd say go for it...in all honesty it is much easier to get 300HP from a 540 But I like 6 cylinders better.

[repenttokyo]

I'm not trying to ruin what you want to do, but you are really going to spend a lot of money for little gain. From what you are saying, you lack the skills to do the work yourself. You are going to take a very nice car, that will command a premium as it stands and hack it up.

To pay someone to swap the tranny, you are going to be looking at $2000+ for labor.

To do the engine mods you are contemplating, you are talking $1500 in labor if you don't open the engine up. When you discuss swapping pistons, start raising that minimum labor to $3000+. All together you are looking at $10,000 + for what you want to do. When you are all done, you will have a car that is worth less than it is now.

With this, you haven't even discussed suspension, wheels and tires, all of which you will want to upgrade to be compatible with the faster car. Figure another $2500 easy.

Fast cars need better brakes, I won't even add that in. Were at $12,500 on a good day, plus the value of the car, so $18,000 or so.

I know that you don't want to hear this, but at the end of the day it is not worth doing this. Start with something faster to begin with. A nice E39 540i sport is going to have all of this stuff, be as fast, and will hold it's value much better.

it's not up to you to decide what someone else is willing to spend on their project. he didn't ask you your opinion on whether he should do it or not. he asked people to tell him how to do it. so i guess either answer the question or stop posting in the thread.

[Iwo]

Any idea which diff should I use it for the manual swap ???

[Sam-Son]

Any idea which diff should I use it for the manual swap ???
Limited Slip obviously. I have a 3.15 in mine and although it gives outstanding acceleration...I mean really good. It lack at the top end. At 80MPH I'm at 3200 or 3300 rpm. SO I recommend a 3.73LSD

[attack eagle]

What THE Focke?

SInce your 3.15 is too short you recommend going EVEN SHORTER???

OR do you have your numbers backwards, and have a 3.73 but recommend a 3.15 because the 3.73 is too short??

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

If we all took the sensible option then this forum would be full of questions on merits of polishes/detailing! The suggestion of buying is the sane option, but if we were all sane then we`d be in Volvo`s,if Jon K is honest his labour costs will buy an M5,but wheres the challenge in that? Use the forum/net for bits and go for it!!!!!!!!!!

[Dragunov]

Seriously, i agree you shouldn't do it. You have a perfect 525, why dump a lot of money in it to take away its authenticy and value? I'm not telling you not to do it, but you really shouldn't. Whatever floats your boat, but when a whole forum of bmw nuts around the world agrees that it isn't the best choise, you should at least CONSIDER it.

[Ross]

Turbo supercharging is on demand only but suffers from some lag which can be sorted to almost nil.
A mechanical supercharger is always "on" and probably harder to fit.
300 is easily obtainable in a naturally aspirated engine of larger displacement and will be more reliable than a highly stressed small engine.
No replacement for displacement.

[Iwo]

Ok so, since most of you is telling NO....
then maybe you have some ideas for me what else besides SC or Turbo I can do to get more power ??? Chip is on thing for sure but what else ???
Transmission is going to be manual period (that automatic GM piece really sucks!!!!!!!)

[cary]

it's not up to you to decide what someone else is willing to spend on their project. he didn't ask you your opinion on whether he should do it or not. he asked people to tell him how to do it. so i guess either answer the question or stop posting in the thread.

Could you please point to where in the forum rules it says that advice that doesn't correspond 100% to what the poster asked for could not be provided. The OP is contemplating taking on a project that he clearly does not understand the amount of work or costs involved. I have seen people do this many times, then they get halfway through it and either 1) abandon it, or 2) get through and realize the money would have been better spent just buying a faster car to begin with.

[repenttokyo]

Could you please point to where in the forum rules it says that advice that doesn't correspond 100% to what the poster asked for could not be provided. The OP is contemplating taking on a project that he clearly does not understand the amount of work or costs involved. I have seen people do this many times, then they get halfway through it and either 1) abandon it, or 2) get through and realize the money would have been better spent just buying a faster car to begin with.



when the ratio of posts saying "don't do what you want to do" radically outweighs those encouraging the poster, then i would say a line has been crossed. People should try putting aside their personal preferences and realise that other people have other tastes.

Why is it so hard to understand that some people don't want a car that many other people have (ie 540). Let him build his unique car. Why do you care if he could have a faster car to begin with? If all he wanted was a fast car, I think he would have bought something other than a 5 series. What he wants is clearly expressed and yet everyone shits all over it.

[94_e34_525i]

How come this wont work?
http://www.activeautowerke.com/supercharger/e36325/main.php

i mean its the same damn engine right?

[cary]

when the ratio of posts saying "don't do what you want to do" radically outweighs those encouraging the poster, then i would say a line has been crossed. People should try putting aside their personal preferences and realise that other people have other tastes.

Why is it so hard to understand that some people don't want a car that many other people have (ie 540). Let him build his unique car. Why do you care if he could have a faster car to begin with? If all he wanted was a fast car, I think he would have bought something other than a 5 series. What he wants is clearly expressed and yet everyone shits all over it.

Thanks for explaining what your rules are, now please show me where the forum rules state that people cannot express their opinion.

Here it is clear the original poster does not have a high level of mechanical skills and probably doesn't understand the shear volume of work and monetary costs that he is discussing. Rather than encourage him to dive headlong into a project that he may not yet understand, we are pointing out the problems and costs with what he wants to do.

[Brandon J]

Well, there has been a lot of good advice here. Also, it is good to take into considerations of what the experience would be trying to achieve a forced inuction and tuning it.

I agree the very first thing to do is get the whole suspension and brakes up to par. As said, a 3.73 is way too short. I went to a 3.46 when I had my M50tu/manual and it was just a tad too short. If you are adding more power anyways, go with the factory 3.23LS. That's the gearing the e36 M3 had too.

It sounds like you have a nice gem on your hands. And from what you are asking, you want the power to back up the pristine e34. Not a bad idea. The body is good, there is less wear and tear on your e34. So, it is definitely understandable. Lets upgrade the power to compete with modern day, but still keep the classic look. So, now your choices of how to match a gem of power to the gem e34 is what I gathered you want.

I posted on a different thread my experieinces with the m50tu and several people here asked many good questions about swapping in an e36 M3 motor. I would start with that as the integrity and quality of the factory would still be there. People have their own wrenching skills, but a swap like this is easy when it comes to surprises. When fixing your e34, there is nothing like printing out all the instructions and having the Bentley manual next to you and then there is a surprise. "I can't get this off, or the nut sizes are different, the upgrade didn't take into account this or that and now I have another problem," etc. You follow everything from the specific instructions to the calculations. Well, that's why race teams and auto makers test test test. That's why real world results are important. A factory engine swap limits those unexpectancies and unexpected costs.

Since externally, the long block of the e36 M3 engines are the same, well we have less surprises for fitment and mating parts. If you do an OBDI on a 3.2L S52, then you can get very dependable torque and horspower. With a few bolt ons and chip, you can approach the 300hp mark. You can then add cams & headers if you want the natually aspirated type of power, or add forced induction. With the 3.2L, a little boost makes very good reliable power. A 2.5L would need a lot more boost to reach the same peak power, have more turbo lag, less overall torque, and be more difficult to drive.

No, JonK isn't doing a horrible thing. He is doing a great job of contributing his experiences with the turbo project to us here. That means we don't have to do a lot of exploratory work over, and the next person can take it to the next level. Also, to his expense, he is seeing the power and reliability limits of the M50tu in the e34. Since the M3 engine is externally the same, the fitment issues for forced induction we learn from JonK would apply. Thanks Jon.

So, what is deduced from all of this. People were saying start with reliability. Great idea for such a great e34. So start with a reliable M3 engine swap a great first step for power (after the suspension and brakes have been upgraded). Good luck with your decision.

[Sam-Son]

My bad. yeah a 3.73 would be way to short but I've seen 3.73's on 6spds wouldn't that be appropriate?

[Jon K]

My opinion:

Take an M60 apart. Take an M50 non vanos apart. Compare max horsepower people are getting from each of the two, and your questions are answering themselves.

Stay with the 2.5L and turbo it.

[repenttokyo]

Thanks for explaining what your rules are, now please show me where the forum rules state that people cannot express their opinion.

Here it is clear the original poster does not have a high level of mechanical skills and probably doesn't understand the shear volume of work and monetary costs that he is discussing. Rather than encourage him to dive headlong into a project that he may not yet understand, we are pointing out the problems and costs with what he wants to do.


whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

[wjbell]

when the ratio of posts saying "don't do what you want to do" radically outweighs those encouraging the poster, then i would say a line has been crossed. People should try putting aside their personal preferences and realise that other people have other tastes.



There's also a point when you see what the poster is trying to accomplish with limited skills and possibly funds, and so you might use your wisdom and experience to steer him away from a possible mistake. Or at least clue him in on the enormity of the task.

That's called helping, and isn't that what these message boards are for?

[Jon K]

http://blowneuroz.com/mygallery/Miscellaneous/psisign.jpg

[Iwo]

Thanks Guys, that is a lot of great info !!!! I have tons to learn from you.
I live in Los Angeles and most of the driving is in the city or in traffic... :(
The only reason why I didn't get M5 was running costs as a daily driver (10-12mpg) (and in terms of M60 I'm not a big fan of BMW's V8)
Now as much as I like the idea of S52 engine, I think that's way more money then upgrading my M50 Vanos 2.5L...
If tuned properly, is turbo lag going to be such an issue..? Maybe then I should go with supercharger ? What about reliability ???
I use my car as a daily and I like to have good pick up at low Rpm...
In terms of suspension I already have Bilstein/Eilbach setup.

[Jon K]

Superchargers have a common misconception about them. "Turbo lag sucks, I will get a supercharger.."

Well, the CF (centrifugal) superchargers that are available widely for BMW motors are basically turbo compressor sides with a belt driven gear exhaust side. What this does it require RPM like a turbo without interfacing with the exhaust. So, there is a common phrase re: CF superchargers: "All of the lag, none of the boost."

Seriously with CF blowers you get your peak PSI @ redline. Not before. So, a system might make 9 psi... but at 5000 rpm you might only have 6. If you think turbo lag is bad - drive a CF s/c car. A turbo sized for your required power will have minimal and more likely no noticeable lag. You want 300 hp out of a 2.5L that'd be a T3/T04E turbo, .57 trim... that would have no perceivable lag. Granted, it'll run out of breath at higher boost but that won't be necessary for only 300 hp.

The supercharged that do not have perceivable lag are roots or twin screw. Roots aren't technically pressurizing the intake manifold, but accelerating the air - hence the term "blower". The twin screw does create positive displacement, but they are usually integrated into an intake manifold w/ built in air/water intercooler and typically are not "universal" what so ever. For instance, the twin screw that is available for the M50/M3 motors are about $8,000 and are proprietary.