So I changed my spark plugs the other day....

[infurno]

Never figured out what was wrong... Compression test results were ~180-190 on all cylinders. Just need to bite the bullet and spend some money I guess but here are some pictures.

http://www.buysmartpc.com/temp2/plugs/1.JPG
http://www.buysmartpc.com/temp2/plugs/2.JPG
http://www.buysmartpc.com/temp2/plugs/3.JPG
http://www.buysmartpc.com/temp2/plugs/4.JPG

[infurno]

http://www.buysmartpc.com/temp2/plugs/5.JPG

[Ross]

If compression is okay then I'd look to the crankcase ventilation or valve guides for the oil source.
How long did it take for these deposits to accumulate?
I suspect the white crap might be from coolant.

[infurno]

A few months.

When I start the car and not rev to ~3k the plugs go bad instantly.

As long as I remember to rev it up every time they last for months. This is about 3-5 months since my last change. They stay pretty clean until I forget to rev it up.

Cold start with 3k rpm it blows out a cloud of smoke. 5 seconds later, nothing. No noticeable smoke while driving.

[Ross]

Sounds like valve guides are shot.
If it smokes on decell from high speed that pretty much confirms it.
The white deposit on one is interesting.
270k, it's entitled to use a little oil. Since you have a method of extending plug life I'd leave it alone. Spark plugs are cheap.
Eventually this will kill the catalyst and O2 sensor if enough oil goes through.

[infurno]

No smoke on deceleration that I can notice while driving, and I have been looking for it for months.

I will shoot a video maybe a little later tonight of a cold start and throttle. Maybe it will give some tips. Show something I can't see from in the car.

[Ross]

If your car has auto trans this test doesn't work as well. If so try it in a lower gear to have the engine braking effect. Have someone follow while you do it.
What happens is when you close the throttle with the engine turning fast the vacuum is very high and will draw more oil in through the (intake)guides.

[infurno]

Its a manual transmission. Thanks for the tips.
Gives me a good idea of what to look for now.

[BMWCCA1]

Did you replace them with Champions or did you use real spark plugs this time?

[infurno]

Did you replace them with Champions or did you use real spark plugs this time?

I think I got "autolite" this time. Don't want to use anything expensive since they can all go out at any time.

I got expensive "platinum" ones once, they didn't last a day.

[bsell]

I think I got "autolite" this time. Don't want to use anything expensive since they can all go out at any time.

I got expensive "platinum" ones once, they didn't last a day.

It is funny how the expensive, 'fancy' plugs don't tolerate this kind of abuse, yet some five and dime plugs blaze through the crap... I've seen the exotic four electrode platinum plugs run like garbage, yet a basic NGK makes the same engine purr.

At first I was going to offer that your oil control rings are hosed but you say you have no blue smoke during accel or deccel. Yet you sure do have some strong signs of oil in the combustion chamber.

I wonder if so much oil is making it into the combustion chamber that it never burns, so you get no smoke out the back?

As all of the plugs look like garbage, I figure your problem is in an engine-wide system like the pcv system.

Have you pulled the hoses in the pcv system to see what is inside them or done any other pcv diagnostics? If the crankcase is getting overpressurized due to a clog in the pcv system you could see all the plugs like this. Other signs of overpressure in the crankcase would be moderate to severe oil leaks and maybe outright engine seal failure due to blowout.

When is the last time you pulled the valve cover and had a look-see? I would love to see a picture of the underside of the valve cover and down the intake through the throttle body. Some shots of the inside of the pcv system hoses would be helpful also. (I know, I don't ask for much!:D )

Brian

P.S. Your statement about having to rev to 3K to keep them from fouling is a strong sign of oil running downhill into the combustion chambers from somewhere. Could it be draining out of the pcv system?

[duby55]

Is there a possibility the oil retun holes are clogged up with sludge?

[Tiger]

Based on your mileage and the condition of the plug, I would say your fuel injectors are bad... causiing these problems.

[infurno]

So many suggestions im not sure where to start.

This is going to take some warm weather and a weekend.

[Morgenster]

Based on your mileage and the condition of the plug, I would say your fuel injectors are bad... causiing these problems.

I'm going along with this. Your plugs seem to foul before oil even has a chance to get there. The deposits can just as well be fuel.
See article:

http://dirtbike.off-road.com/dirtbike/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=332655

The second image has an exact copy of your whitish plug.

[Vanguard]

http://www.verrill.com/moto/sellingguide/sparkplugs/plugcolorchart.htm

Your's look like gap-bridging, pre-ignition and ash fouling. See the suggestions under the chart.

What do the expensive plugs look like after they go bad?

I'd say your timing is out. Do you have a Check Engine Light on? What grade of fuel are you running?

[infurno]

Thanks for the links. Very helpful. Mine are in such bad condition that its difficult to match to the images. It does seem to be a combination of problems. Also its possible that there is only 1 problem, but once it started to effect the plug the others begin to follow.

For example if I am getting an oil buildup, a misfire will begin to develop. Hard to figure out what happened first.


I don't remember what the expensive ones looked like once bad, it's been many months and I was pretty disappointed in my expense. I do remember they were platinum, and had 4 ends instead of 1.
|
-o-
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kind of like this (+4):
http://www.shokan.com/catalog/images/platinum%204.jpg

Don't remember the brand either, I just asked for the most expensive stuff they had. Thought that maybe "real" spark plugs would last me a little while longer.

Talked to a friend the other day, he read the thread helped clarify where I should start and what to look for. Will work on it Saturday or Sunday.


There is a possibility the timing is off. The engine was (DIY) rebuilt maybe a little more then 2 years ago. (not by me)

Its funny you mentioned the Check Engine Light. The car was given to me and it always had this engine light issue. The light comes on during idle. But once you throttle it (just a tad) not even in gear and put it to ~1,100-1,500 rpm the light comes off. A ~20 seconds of idle and the light comes on.

I could not figure out what it meant, and out of the hundred times I tried the stomp test using every single bit of direction I could find on multiple forums, its never worked. Besides I figured I had more immediate problems.

[Vanguard]

I don't know much about the 525 m20 motor, but I think you probably should start by having the codes pulled and checking into the CEL. Someone near you may have a reader or Carsoft.

[CharlesAFerg]

Holy crap, I think I'm having the same problem!

No smoke, but it just recently started giving my difficulty to start, and I must hold the gas down to start. The guys think it's an electrical problem & they want to "fix my ECM" but I think they're wrong and stupid.

My spark plugs looked exactly the same when they recently changed them, made the car run better - but after reading this, I'm curious t see them again, 2 months later - if they're healthy or have gone bad like yours have quickly.

I'm using 87, what the manual says.
My fuel pressure is fine apparently.

No check engine light.
I do get a warning on the dash when its not starting after i crack it a few times and it finally fires up but dies after revving once.
"Oil Pres Sensor"

[infurno]

Oh I forgot to mention what fuel I use...

My plugs seem to last longer using 93 premium fuel. Don't know why but it seems to help. Plugs tend to go bad when I go back to regular, but maybe just coincidence.

[Tiger]

Then I would say it is timing and fuel injector... what major work have you already done on the engine? Any aftermarket chips?

[bsell]

Based on your mileage and the condition of the plug, I would say your fuel injectors are bad... causiing these problems.

I could bite on this one if one or two plugs were garbage, but to have all six injectors die at once is rare.

I would like to see the high tension side of the ignition circuit on an engine analyzer to ensure the coil hasn't taken a dive.

Brian

[bsell]

http://www.verrill.com/moto/sellingguide/sparkplugs/plugcolorchart.htm

Your's look like gap-bridging, pre-ignition and ash fouling. See the suggestions under the chart.

What do the expensive plugs look like after they go bad?

I'd say your timing is out. Do you have a Check Engine Light on? What grade of fuel are you running?

Try to picture what his combustion chambers must look like if his plugs are stuffed full of crap like that. I can't imagine how much junk is taking up space in the combustion chamber, raising his compresssion ratio through the roof (which might account for the pre-ignition/ash fouling look to his plugs).

He needs to find the source of the junk forming first, then once the plugs run clean, see if the pre-ignition/ash fouling symptoms continue.

I think once he gets the car to run without fouling the plugs, a couple rounds of Sea-foam are in order to clean out the top end of the engine.

Brian

[infurno]

no chips. Just regular maintenance of wear and tear... Water pump... nothing special.

[Tiger]

270,000 US miles... and you haven't done any timing belt replacement? At this mileage fuel injectors are worn out too.

[infurno]

Oh no, I have owned it maybe... ~30k now.

The timing belt has been replaced every ~50k as far as I know. I know for sure it was replaced ~30k miles ago.

I don't have any maintenance records for the car beyond that.

[Tiger]

Alright then... assuming the timing belt is replaced properly and you are not losing oil... more than 1 quart per 3000 miles, the I would only suspect the fuel injectors... those that are extremely fouled are the leaking one... they are leaking even when not called for.

[AngryPopTart]

Don't the platinum plugs have that tiny, little center electrode, though? When I was having problems with #6 looking esentially like your plugs, minus the white stuff, a platinum in #6 would foul out REALLY fast because that little electrode is easy to cover with junk, whereas the the cheap plugs have giant electrodes. The car ran smoother with platinums. My brother said the same after I put them in his car because I couldn't run them for more than a day due to #6. My car started messing up #6 like this after the typical Bosch replacement came apart and sent porcelain hammering up the inside. It looks like someone took a body hammer and jabbed the combustion chamber on the head, until there was no where left to jab it. I haven't looked inside the cylinder, yet. (paps took it apart after we put the other engine in it)

I think the OP better do the water through the intake trick to clean up that combustion chamber... however, should he drop the exhaust before he does this? I have a feeling with as much crud as there probably is in there, he will mess up his cat, if it's not already messed up.

[bsell]

So many suggestions im not sure where to start.

This is going to take some warm weather and a weekend.

Hope you had a Merry Christmas...so did you make any headway on this?

Brian

[infurno]

Hey thanks for asking. Christmas was great. Last weekend was too busy to get anything done on the car, I have a few things getting put off.

When I get off work its already night, so I started cleaning out the garage for room to pull the car inside. I will probably have time if not this Saturday then the one after to start going through suggestions mentioned here.

As soon as I have more information I will post it here, as well as any pictures. This is my highest priority.

[Tiger]

Check this out Infurno...

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com.my/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=64

[infurno]

My pistons probably look like something thats been sitting at the bottom of the ocean for a while. I hope the engine will recover when this is resolved.

Would it help at all if I posted an audio recording of the exhaust? Or the engine compartment? Thats something I can have done probably tonight.

[Tiger]

No... probably not. Follow that NGK advice... check that timing and make sure they line up. Check tensioner too.