diplomacy with the nice mechanic

[timandbim]

so my car is STILL in the shop for a headgasket job. it's all fairly understandable with it being the holiday season and them being sent the wrong parts, and then faulty parts and basically having to do the job twice. they screwed up putting the timing belt back on the first time, too.

i went in today expecting to pick it up but was told they're still waiting for a second set of intake gaskets because the last ones were no good. while i was there i snuck a peek and couldn't believe my eyes as there were two giant gouges on one of my BRAND NEW fenders - the typical keys in your pocket gouges people make leaning into the engine compartment. both my fenders were brand new and painted and installed earlier this month!

i'm 100% certain it happened since i brought it to the shop. i didn't say anything but hope to raise the issue after i get my car back- not sure what to expect though. being on good terms with the mechanic two blocks away is never a bad thing. i totally like these guys too, they've been trying and they've been honest about their mistakes which i appreciate- but they gouged my car! do any of you have any experience dealing with this kind of thing?

[Ross]

Sounds to me that they are careless, nice perhaps too, but they are being paid to service your car and are responsible for it's care while in their posession.
These instances almost never go well, especially when the shop is already frustrated with a job. My advice is get the mechanical bits sorted and then address the damage. Hopefully they will stand up and face the face the music. Good luck.

[AngryPopTart]

As a automotive painter, I'd suggest you follow the advice to wait until the mechanical is done. As to whether you pay first or not, that's up to you. But it's likely, being a mechanic, he has a buddy in autobody who he may want to have fix it for him to avoid insurance, etc., blah blah.

P.S. Stop using such a crappy shop.

[Paul in NZ]

be nice.....for now

[Qube]

It's the only thing I like about the stealer... they always use fender guard/covers... even if changing the oil.

http://www.cascadeaudio.com/worksafe/fender_covers.htm

[bsell]

It's the only thing I like about the stealer... they always use fender guard/covers... even if changing the oil.

http://www.cascadeaudio.com/worksafe/fender_covers.htm

When I worked at the Porsche dealership back in the late '80's, Porsche made fender covers a mandatory purchase for all it's dealerships. The covers had plywood contained within to support the a/c compressor resting on the right rear fender during 911 repairs and along the full length for the 928 aluminum fenders.

I can't beleive the OP's shop doesn't at least drape a cloth fender cover over the fenders. The uniform cleaner/delivery company offered fender covers as part of their service for not much money.

I agree with the idea of not using these guys again as they don't bring the whole package to the deal.

Brian

[repenttokyo]

if you like tim, I can give you the contact info for a pair of good mechanics on St Jacques that I have been going to for years.

[timandbim]

i agree with you guys and that was the plan all along- but there's no way in hell i'm letting him keep it another 'day' for a buddy to fix the scratches. i think he knows about it already because he started calling me 'monsieur' a few days ago and i think that's usually a bad sign.

i'm going to pay for it and mention it after i have my keys- maybe he'll spring for a tube of touch-up paint or something. i dunno- it seems like it's almost not worth saying anything but i just spent so much on the bodywork. i guess i'd just like to hear what he says, but what can i expect him to offer, realistically?

i don't even care anymore- i have to do other touch up work anyway and i just want my car back. it takes me 15 minutes to drive or ride my bike (not a current option) to work. today it took an hour and a half to get there and cost me $15 for a cab plus fare for the first bus this morning after my 'connecting bus' never showed up- a bj in the bus shelter would have been an extra $10- FH- poor girls it was 5am frigging -20'c with the wind and snow everywhere (15cm last night) and they're standing out there (bumming all my smokes) trying to turn $10!!!!

[timandbim]

if you like tim, I can give you the contact info for a pair of good mechanics on St Jacques that I have been going to for years.

thanks i would appreciate that- it would be good to know for future reference. i do know a few good mechanics in town and have had a couple of recommendations from other 'habitants' on this forum, too.

in this case i was there already and there was no way i could have got it anywhere else without overheating again or towing it - it's right around the corner. i won't go back there unless it's for a flat tire or something - i understand it's chaotic and they're still moving and it's the holiday season and stuff but it's getting ridiculous now.

[whiskychaser]

i won't go back there unless it's for a flat tire or something
In my view a good company isnt one that doesnt have problems. Everybody does. Its how you solve them. I'd suggest you give them the opportunity to put it right. If they dont exceed your expectations, dump them. And tell your friends why.

[repenttokyo]

push him to have it repaired, at his cost, at the body shop of your choice.

[632 Regal]

Pictures?


a bj in the bus shelter would have been an extra $10- FH- poor girls it was 5am frigging -20'c with the wind and snow everywhere (15cm last night) and they're standing out there (bumming all my smokes) trying to turn $10!!!!

[timandbim]

Pictures?

lmao you want photos of dimebag hookers? sorry dude, i didn't have the camera handy. tomorrow i arranged to catch a lift... -35'c with the wind (lord have mercy!) but if i don't have the car friday morning i'll bring it and do my best not to upload any viruses.

[timandbim]

push him to have it repaired, at his cost, at the body shop of your choice.

yeah but i'd almost rather just get the car and be able to drive it- it's been in the garage for four of the last five weeks! it was ok while i had time-off but it really sucks now. i didn't get a really good look yet- they look like pretty blatant scratches but i didn't see if it was just paint or if there was a dent there- if there is a dent i'll be pissed. if it's just paint i'd rather have the car sooner- at least one of the fenders will match the amateur touch-ups i do on the rest of the car! i agree with you and whiskeychaser- give him a chance to make it right... but i don't want to if it means him keeping my car any longer!

[repenttokyo]

they are counting on you being relieved to get the car back to get out of their responsibility for their damage. ask to have it done at a bodyshop of your choice, that gets the car out of their garage as soon as possible.

[Ross]

Sounds like you are getting ready to lay down. If you don't ask they ain't gonna volunteer.
Before you accept the car test drive it WITH the owner, if all mechanically is okay then it's time to bring up the damage. Once your dough is in his hands it will tend to remain there.

[Paul in NZ]

i think we are all too hard on our mechs....last time i had my car done they had even replaced the obc lamps,washed the car,and it was running sweeeet..i was so impressed i stopped at the bottle store bought a dozen beers and went back...you could tell it doesnt happen very often!!!!

[repenttokyo]

you mean you guys don't give your mechanics presents at xmas, or when they do a really good job for you in a small amount of time?

[632 Regal]

happy new years *cant find the right icon* get it gone, dont leave it there man!


they are counting on you being relieved to get the car back to get out of their responsibility for their damage. ask to have it done at a bodyshop of your choice, that gets the car out of their garage as soon as possible.

[BigKriss]

whats this, you have working prostitutes in the bus shelter or am i getting this all wrong?


.........- a bj in the bus shelter would have been an extra $10- FH- poor girls it was 5am frigging -20'c with the wind and snow everywhere (15cm last night) and they're standing out there (bumming all my smokes) trying to turn $10!!!!

[leicesterboy15]

Sounds like you are getting ready to lay down. If you don't ask they ain't gonna volunteer.
Before you accept the car test drive it WITH the owner, if all mechanically is okay then it's time to bring up the damage. Once your dough is in his hands it will tend to remain there.

Bang On! As soon as you hand over your money you will not see it again! If you are not happy you should say something, even if its only to express your dissatisfaction. As mentioned take the car for a test drive (with the mechanic) and before handing over any money bring up the issue and show them. If they get all hard nosed and funny then you have the option of just paying up and leaving or taking it further. If you pay first and then bring up the issue your mind is made up for you, the only thing you can really do is pay & walk. That would be how I would approach it, and theres no need to bring it up in a nasty way, be nice at first and you never know. If you approach it like this and they are reasonable I think the most likely outcome is that they knock some money off your bill as a goodwill gesture. That way you get something back and you can get the work done properly yourself. I doubt they would take enough off to cover all the damage but at least 1/2 if not a bit more.

[timandbim]

ok so i'm not pissed about this, i'm happy this guy's being thorough... i think...

turns out an exhaust valve had cooked (completely burnt and bent - he showed me)- he's waiting for the part... engine's in pieces again. said he had it together and it was together but firing on only 5 cylinders so he went back in and found that. it seemed pretty believable and i don't think this guy's trying to jerk my around, scratches or not. going to charge me labour for hg+pump=8hrs + 2hrs for the valve replacement- seems fair to me. he could have tried to give it back to me on 5 cylinders and if i had insisted he would have put it back together and let me drive it away i'm sure.

anyway he says he's worked on lots of bimmers and for some reason it's always the same cylinder that goes (#2 i think he said)... is that true? i'd feel really confident about him if it were. said that could cause an overheat real fast... said the water pump wasn't necessarily busted but it was really old and 'loose' so it was best to change it anyway (i agree!). he has the parts to show me. as for the scratches i tried to take a peek discretely but couldn't really... i was ready for a debate but i care so much less about the scratches than getting my car fixed so i avoided it... for now... more wondering how i cooked an exhaust valve- if it had something to do with me screwing with the icv when it froze... and if i wouldn't have noticed it missing in the very short time i had it running between the overheat and the shop. (might i have missed it missing? i caught it recently on an '86 dodge... but maybe not right away) this is my original overheat thread (http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t=36378)in case you are inclined to take even more time to deal with my problems. guys i really appreciate the responses - i would have been totally freaking out if it weren't for some of your feedback... i'm still kind of freaking out...


whats this, you have working prostitutes in the bus shelter or am i getting this all wrong? there were prostitutes at the bus shelter in -20' at 5-30am... this morning i got a lift from a friend and one of them thought he had actually stopped for her - it was pretty funny 'cause i'd been talking about it the day before but it took my buddy a while to figure out what was going on lol. whether or not they're getting any work i don't know - i wouldn't touch them with a wetsuit on. i think it's nuts in this case because of the cold, not the location (less snow there than on the sidewalk ;))... and FH... ten dollars????

wow this is really long- sorry guys... i better run and buy some cheap smokes so i don't give all my winstons to the ladies tomorrow morning - i'll try to remember my camera so i can take pics for jeff- happy new year to you too! i'll try and send you some quality montreal krakkhhorrr photos tomorrow.:D

[BigKriss]

nice. any good lookers among them?



there were prostitutes at the bus shelter in -20' at 5-30am... this morning i got a lift from a friend and one of them thought he had actually stopped for her - it was pretty funny 'cause i'd been talking about it the day before but it took my buddy a while to figure out what was going on lol. whether or not they're getting any work i don't know - i wouldn't touch them with a wetsuit on. i think it's nuts in this case because of the cold, not the location (less snow there than on the sidewalk ;))... and FH... ten dollars????

wow this is really long- sorry guys... i better run and buy some cheap smokes so i don't give all my winstons to the ladies tomorrow morning - i'll try to remember my camera so i can take pics for jeff- happy new year to you too! i'll try and send you some quality montreal krakkhhorrr photos tomorrow.:D

[repenttokyo]

so not only did he scratch your car, tim, but he did repair work that you didn't authorize, in fact, he didn't even call you to tell you a - why your car was taking so long and b - that he was doing this extra work and would be charging you for that?

any work in quebec that is performed without an estimate, verbal or written given before hand, is not legal! these guys really don't seem to be treating you well :(

[repenttokyo]

nice. any good lookers among them?


10 dollars for a blowjob = i'll let you do the math on how attractive they probably were.

[632 Regal]

agrees neither in the USA without a written authorization cant be completed so the charges are alleged...might want to get your car outta there before you contest charges ;)


so not only did he scratch your car, tim, but he did repair work that you didn't authorize, in fact, he didn't even call you to tell you a - why your car was taking so long and b - that he was doing this extra work and would be charging you for that?

any work in quebec that is performed without an estimate, verbal or written given before hand, is not legal! these guys really don't seem to be treating you well :(

[Ross]

Ah, bring the Winstons. They might be used in a barter arrangement with the bus stop ladies to motivate your mechanic.

[bmwpower]

In my experience every mechanic fails my quality/care test eventually. It's a shame, but so is life. People just don't give a crap about your stuff.

You were stuck in your situation, so I understand not doing it yourself.

How is he replacing the valve? Lapping it in? Machine shops around here won't do just one valve - it's the whole head or nothing since you can't be guaranteed a good seal otherwise and the whole burn valve thing happens all over again.

[timandbim]

Ah, bring the Winstons. They might be used in a barter arrangement with the bus stop ladies to motivate your mechanic.

i think they'd work no matter what i gave 'em so long as they could smoke it- i think i will save the ladies for revenge if i need it :D

sorry guys no pics- woke up late and took a taxi!

[timandbim]

so not only did he scratch your car, tim, but he did repair work that you didn't authorize, in fact, he didn't even call you to tell you a - why your car was taking so long and b - that he was doing this extra work...
agrees neither in the USA without a written authorization cant be completed so the charges are alleged...might want to get your car outta there before you contest charges ;)

i'm not sure that's entirely fair, although i appreciate you guys saying so...

disregarding the scratches, which i haven't had a proper look at, for now i'm concerned with the engine and i'm trying to see the situation from the owner's point of view.

i originally took it there to change the thermostat cause i couldn't get the part myself and thought what the heck maybe these guys will do it quick and easy which they did. they only just opened and were still moving stuff but the owner told me he was positive the headgasket had gone (which it had - i saw) but we had to wait for the gear to be sure. i authorized the 6+2 hours on the hg and the water pump (which he never said was busted although i could see right away it was ancient and assumed it was the problem) but it had to stay the weekend. 2 bummers the next week- the new intake gaskets are bad (also the first hg to arrive was for an m50) and the mechanic doing the work slips up realigning the timing belt... bummers but understandable... they redo a lot of the job twice at no cost to me. this takes even longer because the owner is away from the shop a lot moving equipment (not expecting these hiccups i imagine) and the shop was closed over christmas - plus parts were pretty slow coming due to lousy weather, holidays, and i imagine right now a strong demand here right now.

yesterday when they finally had the job done and fired it up it was only running on 5 cyl so they took it apart and found the burnt exhaust valve and ordered the part and left it like that until i dropped by, which they were expecting. they quoted two hours for that job and i authorized it so in total are going to charge me 10 hours of shop time.

disregarding the scratches, which i haven't had a good look at and don't care about anymore (although i intend to check them and talk about it before i pay yessir you guys are so right) it all seems pretty straight-up to me and it looks like the only thing they made a mistake on was putting the timing belt on wrong... just a bummer being stuck there over christmas and new years. this sucks but i don't want to blame the mechanic unless i have good reason to. i did overheat pretty badly - goddamn montreal rush-hour snowstorms i know not to let it get that hot even though it never happened to me before.

three things i would like to know... 1) i'm wondering if he should have maybe noticed the burnt valve in the first place? 2) is it really always the same one that goes on this and similar bmw motors? 3) cracked heads aside (not forgotten), please tell me how much worse can this get?



You were stuck in your situation, so I understand not doing it yourself.
How is he replacing the valve? Lapping it in? Machine shops around here won't do just one valve - it's the whole head or nothing since you can't be guaranteed a good seal otherwise and the whole burn valve thing happens all over again.that is an excellent question and i have no idea... i will be sure to inquire and try to read-up on the subject- thanks! i can change belts and starters and stuff and i'm ok with electrical stuff but i think this is a bit out of my league even if i had the space and tools.

[whiskychaser]

You were stuck in your situation, so I understand not doing it yourself.

How is he replacing the valve? Lapping it in? Machine shops around here won't do just one valve - it's the whole head or nothing since you can't be guaranteed a good seal otherwise and the whole burn valve thing happens all over again.
The man has a point. Wouldnt anyone who had the head off take a look at the valves? And to charge only two hours labour to take it apart, change a valve and put it back together is a bit suss. I said before give them the opportunity to put the scratches right. Right now i'm thinking get your car out of there fast:(

[timandbim]

so i picked my car up last night - ended up working (and commuting!) pretty late and didn't make it to the shop until right when it was closing. the important thing is the car runs great and the work looks good as far as i can tell(errr... i can't really). i will take photos of the scratches but they aren't as bad as i thought (i think i maybe exaggerated it in my head a bit i was pretty stressed - there was road salt and crap all over it too). i was ready to make a big fuss but they're so small i just said they look like they were made by a car part - he already knew about the bodywork and he seemed willing to discuss it further but i felt it was such a minor issue compared to the amount of work that had been done, and they are small enough that i feel i kinda maybe could have missed them if they happened before, although i really doubt it. the owner did the job himself- i also kinda felt the first mechanic was in enough shXt already for screwing up the first time. i didn't feel i was unfairly charged or treated - it did take forever but everything was nuts here for everyone over christmas we were having trouble with frustrated customers at my job, too. i asked how he replaced the valve but i didn't really know what i was talking about - haven't had time to read up and he honestly didn't seem to understand what i was asking... ("mais, je ne comprend pas, je l'ai remplace avec un nouveau c'est tous...") he says the rest of the valves had no burns and he couldn't see any other damage and as far as he is concerned it's good as new. i'll go back and talk to him when i understand more he is very willing to talk. i wish i could have been there to see but i was at work the whole time. i'm not usually that much of an optimist but i do understand shXt happens and actually feel not so bad about the garage, although i didn't buy them a case of beer- and if there is a next time i will take photos of the car before they touch it.

Wouldnt anyone who had the head off take a look at the valves? And to charge only two hours labour to take it apart, change a valve and put it back together is a bit suss. yeah- i think actually the owner is only charging 2 hours here because the mechanic should have checked the valves when the engine was apart the first time- and they had already taken it apart to find the problem without asking. this reinforces my belief that the mechanic screwed up the first time and the owner went back and made sure the job was done properly and billed me fairly.
i dunno- i'll post pics of the scratches and you guys can can call my a pusssy if you like.:)
gotta say i'm still kinda freaked out - like wtf happened????? and my eyes are so glued to the temp guage now i think i may be dangerous to other traffic and pedestrians! hey thanks a lot for your posts i was feeling a whole lot less vulnerable with you guys around - like i said pics to follow...

[whiskychaser]

I think your mechanic is being very modest or disingenuous when he said:
mais, je ne comprend pas, je l'ai remplace avec un nouveau c'est tous.
OK, I did 12 valves. But I wasnt inclined to say that and give a gallic shrug of the shoulders, like i'd just emptied the ashtray or something.
Bottom line: Good to hear you got the motor back!! :)

[timandbim]

I think your mechanic is being very modest or disingenuous when he said:
mais, je ne comprend pas, je l'ai remplace avec un nouveau c'est tous.
OK, I did 12 valves. But I wasnt inclined to say that and give a gallic shrug of the shoulders, like i'd just emptied the ashtray or something.
Bottom line: Good to hear you got the motor back!! :)

yes- i think he lost a lot of time on this job, although mostly due to his mechanic and suppliers screwing up, but he could have easily tried to make me eat some of the cost and it would have been difficult for me to stop him i think. i actually feel he is a good mechanic although i think he might want to clean up his shop procedures. the mechanic has already caught it i think judging by the look on his face one time i was there lol. i dunno - i'm liking the bottom line too... i was way more screwed than i knew and the whole thing could have been so much worse at a dishonest shop i'm sure. he knows i think his mechanic scratched my car and is obviously grateful i dropped it although he won't say.

here's some pics- what do you think? can't figure out how to focus - they actually look a bit worse in the photos than they are. he thinks it's the original water pump! (also you can check out the mess they left on the carpets here (http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?p=286640#post286640)! not so bad for this filthy city actually)

yo - cheers to you all - hope the new year goes better for us all than it started for me!

[repenttokyo]

if i were you, i would never go back there.

[whiskychaser]

The impeller on the pump doesnt look plastic. But if it was shot, then it was shot. Cant do any harm having a new one in there! The scratches look like someone was at your car with a chainsaw but they cant be that bad can they? Maybe its the pic or my eysight but does that valve head look bent? If your mechanic is half as bad as everyone thinks, you probably got off lightly. Main thing is you got the car back, its running OK. Its not even my car and i'm relieved you got it back:)

[timandbim]

The impeller on the pump doesnt look plastic. But if it was shot, then it was shot. Cant do any harm having a new one in there! The scratches look like someone was at your car with a chainsaw but they cant be that bad can they? Maybe its the pic or my eysight but does that valve head look bent? If your mechanic is half as bad as everyone thinks, you probably got off lightly. Main thing is you got the car back, its running OK. Its not even my car and i'm relieved you got it back:)



wait...a...second.... omg it would suck if i got wise to this too late, i was ready to go to bat. yes the valve is bent- wouldn't it have been making crazy pops and stuff if the valve was already bent like that when i drove it to the shop? damn i'm slow sometimes. i think the impeller was metal originally on the pump for my year - not sure. thanks for the support - don't think you could be near as relieved as i am to have it back- although i'm going to have nightmares about what else this guy did to it. crappy crap crap crap. i'm thinking could have been way worse and hopefully isn't :( . damn. crap- yeah i'll use a tow truck next time. damn- i think i'm going to be pissed for a long time.

[whiskychaser]

wait...a...second.... omg it would suck if i got wise to this too late, i was ready to go to bat. yes the valve is bent
Easy to say it after the event, but your first post may give a clue as to why you had a bent valve:
they screwed up putting the timing belt back on the first time,
But maybe thats just me being cynical. Either way, hope all is well now

[timandbim]

You guys must be sick of this story but in case anyone's interested here's how it ends (I really hope, this episode I mean - I know other stuff will break...)

if i were you, i would never go back there.So I went back there, heh. There was too much oil in the engine and the alternator belt was loose- didn't take my eye off them the whole time - I could hardly bare to watch. I spoke a bit with the owner about the bent valve - just said I'd spoken with others (true not only you guys) who told me it had probably been bent while the motor was been replaced. He said it's possible but he can't be sure, admitted he should have seen it the first time (he didn't say it was his mechanic not him), and said it was a mystery to him why only one valve was bent because if he had installed it wrong it should have blown more than one or a pair - said it might have been running bent and the friction caused the headgasket to melt.

Anyway that's just in a nutshell - we talked for a while (my french is pretty good but the shop vocab is tough). I wasn't so much after reimbursement of any kind just trying to figure out what happened. I've always kept my cars running well (err, mostly through good (other) mechanics, but on the whole by doing the easy stuff properly and by not driving them stupidly). I've been driving for a while now and never experienced this kind of engine failure or overheating before so you can imagine what a nightmare this has been and how much i would like to figure out what happened to my still-new-to-me car.

How is he replacing the valve? Lapping it in?He said he lapped it in (before I asked actually- 'lapper'- french verb (only here I bet) - to lap wtf?). Seems like a pitb to 'faire lapper une valve'. So I guess I oughta pray for the whole burn valve thing not to happen again - should I get my valves checked right away by someone (else)?

I'd still really like to know if anyone has ever seen only the #2 exhaust valve fry on an m20 or any 6-cyl (and if so if it was really cold at the time). For sure nasty stuff happened when I was screwing around with my icv valve in -20'c and then overheating.

Anyways I would prefer to err on giving people the benefit of the doubt and the worst case scenerio here (assuming he didn't frig anything else up hmm) I think is I'm out 2 hours and the part and I'm not 100% sure about that. Bottom line it's running great, right? Now I can move on to less pressing issues such as why my sun visor won't stay all the way up and which part of the window motor do i whack to get it going again. I don't care about the scratches anymore at all (now at least one of the fenders matches the rest of the car and I did bitch about it just for fun) but I think next time I pass by that shop it'll be because my bicycle tires need air, or 'cause my ladyfriends need to bum some smokes- go beeatches!

[Ross]

Tim,
I gotta tell you that your "mechanic" sounds like a dolt.
Perhaps something is lost in translation but the circumstances you describe and the things the mechanic has said to do aren't right.
It sounds like you are a good sport but this guy is ****ing you or a moron.
Time to take your lumps and get out I think. Be glad he's not your doctor.

[Dave M]

I think next time I pass by that shop it'll be because my bicycle tires need air, or 'cause my ladyfriends need to bum some smokes- go beeatches!

Word ;)

As Ross stated, you spun the wheel, didn't lose your (entire) shirt and were a good sport about it. Made a heck of a good story, thanks........

Things will get better,

Dave M