Anybody here played with

[Bill R.]

Brown's gas or HHO? Another mechanic that i know has installed a couple of kits and i initially thought it was a scam but he's pretty honest and went to a training seminar that the company had in N.J. They modifed a 97 v6 camry and did a 50 mile loop with a full tank of gas and averaged 27 mpg at speeds of 65 to 70 , after installing the browns gas generator and a control board the mileage went up to 48 mpg.

[Morgenster]

Brown's gas or HHO? Another mechanic that i know has installed a couple of kits and i initially thought it was a scam but he's pretty honest and went to a training seminar that the company had in N.J. They modifed a 97 v6 camry and did a 50 mile loop with a full tank of gas and averaged 27 mpg at speeds of 65 to 70 , after installing the browns gas generator and a control board the mileage went up to 48 mpg.

Well I haven't played with it but the only way you could achieve this is if your alternator puts out more electricity than the car needs and that electricity is used for electrolysis of H2O. But I'm not sure you'd see that kind of gain on it. It could also work on its own separate battery but that would seem over complicated. If it works with excess alternator current there's easier ways to get MPG increases.

What do you mean with 'pretty honest'?

[Ross]

Yep, and the energy to turn the alternator comes from guess where with all of it's inefficiencies.
The hydrogen powered cars being tested now are using liquid fuel, far denser than whatever that wimpy little electrolysis device can make.
Something about conservation of energy that makes this impossible.

[Tiger]

Bill... who is the manufacturer of that kit? This is interesting and I would experiment with this. That friend of yours... did he install a kit on his car? Why not borrow his car for a few hours to determine the fuel mileage?

This is the one I found through Wiki...

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/store/Hydrogen-Boost/

[Ferret]

Conservation of energy laws state that energy cannot be created or destroyed - only converted.

This means that a system always has to have more energy going in than out.

...which means as Ross has pointed out, when you trace it back the H2O -> 2H 2O -> H2O conversion that's happening under the bonnet must eventually be powered by the fuel out of the tank.

Unless there's a fiddle somewhere.

[Morgenster]

Well conservation of energy doesn't exactly make it impossible since the average efficiency of gasoline engines is pretty low and it could possibly work to improve that efficiency.
Problem is I don't see any real world tests and scores except from debunkers that will tell you it's a waste of money.

Anyway, your mate could be getting MPG increases on battery power if the device draws mainly from the battery, but then the battery'd be dead after a few hours.

[Bill R.]

about....You set your output on the gas generator at 20 amps and that generates over a liter per minute. SAE published a paper a while back on the benefits of browns gas in very small quantities mixed with gasoline.
It turns out that it greatly accelerates the burning characteristics of gasoline and diesel, so with a very small amount of browns gas you get a very fast burn without knock. Exhaust temps are lower because the mixture is finished burning, unlike with just gasoline. You also add a device to spoof the O2 sensor readings that the computer see's because you burn a much much leaner mix with browns gas which is where the fuel economy comes from. It would be nice to be able to set the timing as well since you don't need the advance you have with most engines. Besides the gas mileage most engines gain around 15% more torque and increased drivability. They make the same claims for diesel as well.

[Bill R.]

info thats on the SAE paper (http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/hydrogeninjection.html)

[Bill R.]

5 kits so far but they are looking into building one themselves since there isn't much to the generator and the guy they are getting them through is too expensive. I'd just check around if your interested. One of the highest output ones with the least amount of current input is this one and its also one of the cheaper priced ones.
(http://www.eagle-research.com/fuelsav/hyztechld.html) If you do some searching on the net you'll see a whole bunch of people selling these kits including ebay.



Bill... who is the manufacturer of that kit? This is interesting and I would experiment with this. That friend of yours... did he install a kit on his car? Why not borrow his car for a few hours to determine the fuel mileage?

This is the one I found through Wiki...

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/store/Hydrogen-Boost/

[Paul in NZ]

what kind of efficency is gained with what I think Mitsubishi call gdi.They talk about huge effeciency gains but only with partial throttle openings(read small throttle openings)

[Ferret]

Hmm, actually after re-reading Bills comments I've just thought of something -

This system may provide a more efficient method for the energy path through the system... engines are only something ridiculous like 40% efficient to start with (I pulled that figure out of thin air so dont quote it!) - this system may aid the combustion process in a manner that makes the whole energy transfer system much more efficient... it may vampire a bit of energy to do it, but the loss will be majorly outweighed by the gain.

[nirvana19]

All the heat your energy produces comes from.. the gasoline you're burning. Heat=inefficiency. And then you need to use more energy to turn the fan to get rid of that heat so as to not destroy your engine. Of course its just about impossible to make a car thats 100% efficient, or even remotely close to that. Maybe in the future when cars drive themselves and car enthusiasts are banished from the road to rust away with their old inefficient gasoline burning (yet very fun) cars...

[Paul in NZ]

I think its WAY less than 40 percent.Deisels are way more efficient

[rob101]

I think its WAY less than 40 percent.Deisels are way more efficient
thats funny you should mention that, its only because diesels run a much higher compression ratio that they are more effecient. if you take an otto cycle and a diesel cycle running the same compression ratio the otto cycle (gasoline) engine is more effecient.

[Paul in NZ]

thats funny you should mention that, its only because diesels run a much higher compression ratio that they are more effecient. if you take an otto cycle and a diesel cycle running the same compression ratio the otto cycle (gasoline) engine is more effecient.
why dont we have 22:1 petrol engines then?

[rob101]

why dont we have 22:1 petrol engines then?
that'd be a diesel engine, just using petrol instead of diesel distillate.
petrol will compression ignite at that kind of comp ratio.

[Itsnotme1988]

petrol will compression ignite at that kind of comp ratio.


So does diesel....that's the point.

Petrol pre-ignites at a much lower rate than diesel, ie the problem.

[Morgenster]

I think its WAY less than 40 percent.Deisels are way more efficient

If you take the gasoline BTU it's around 20% from what I read.
And yes, anything optimizing the burn cycle and reducing combustion temperatures is going to aid in MPG increases. There's a few problems I have with the whole website they put up: First, I don't see tests done by accredited labs and if they talk about it I can't find the referral or official report. Check rustbullet's website for how it should be done.
Second, the one theory on how it works that is proposed is, well, weak to say the least. And third, If this works so miraculously well, why aren't traditional carmakers rushing to use this? I mean, a 50% MPG increase on any production car will sell real good.

Besides these reservations I still think it might work, but I'd like to see a trustworthy tester demonstrate that.

[Ferret]

If this works so miraculously well, why aren't traditional carmakers rushing to use this? I mean, a 50% MPG increase on any production car will sell real good.

They're probably thinking how the hell you suppress the explosive HHO mix in case of an accident.

Burning this gas would make one hell of a hot flame, if it started to leak during an accident at a litre a second or whatever it is - give it 30 seconds and your cars engine bay is flooded with it, one spark and you'd just blow the car to pieces.

You'd need pretty good suppression/crash control computers to stop that happening!

Lawsuit Ahoy! :D

[Morgenster]

They're probably thinking how the hell you suppress the explosive HHO mix in case of an accident.

Burning this gas would make one hell of a hot flame, if it started to leak during an accident at a litre a second or whatever it is - give it 30 seconds and your cars engine bay is flooded with it, one spark and you'd just blow the car to pieces.

You'd need pretty good suppression/crash control computers to stop that happening!

Lawsuit Ahoy! :D

2 liters per minute is what they say. Besides 2 liters per second would require a serious water tank. Safety's not really a problem. The hydrogen/oxygen mix has a short life cycle in the bay anyway: from electrolysis to intake port - a foot or two of travel.

[Tiger]

Check this out...

http://www.brownsgas.com/brownsgasfuelsaver.html

[Bill R.]

one liter per minute. There are a whole lot of scams out there involving this but there are a few that are the real deal. Most systems are using a vacum switch so that you aren't wasting current generating gas at idle or when coasting down, so the only time your producing gas is when driving at part throttle and higher. As soon as the engine stops you stop generating gas and most of them use multiple check valves to prevent backflash from occuring

[rob101]

So does diesel....that's the point.

Petrol pre-ignites at a much lower rate than diesel, ie the problem.
really? thats probably why i said that it'd be a diesel engine with petrol instead of diesel fuel. in what i said originally

[Tiger]

No Rob... if you put gasoline fuel into diesel engine, there would be massive preignition and that would destroy the engine. There is no way to run unleaded fuel in super high compression ratio engine. The flash point property of gasoline prevents this... as it has much lower igntion point.

If you take a teaspoon of gasoline in a cup, you can ignite it with a match. If you try to do that with diesel, you get nothing... it will not burn. That is why military vehicles use diesel fuel... so when bullets fly and hit the gas tank, it will not explode. Aside from this, vehicles gets more torque and mileage with diesel fuel.

[rob101]

No Rob... if you put gasoline fuel into diesel engine, there would be massive preignition and that would destroy the engine. There is no way to run unleaded fuel in super high compression ratio engine. The flash point property of gasoline prevents this... as it has much lower igntion point.

If you take a teaspoon of gasoline in a cup, you can ignite it with a match. If you try to do that with diesel, you get nothing... it will not burn. That is why military vehicles use diesel fuel... so when bullets fly and hit the gas tank, it will not explode. Aside from this, vehicles gets more torque and mileage with diesel fuel.
Err, I think you miss what i was actually saying. I was speaking figuratively about petrol in a diesel engine.
ie a diesel engine is determined by it being compression ignition not the fuel and thus if a petrol engine had the same compression ratio as a diesel engine you wouldn't be igniting it by spark anymore it'd be compression ignition.

but thanks for the lecture, i'll add it to all the ones i received when i studied mechanical engineering at university.

[Tiger]

Ahhh... Mr. Smarty Pants eh? Perhaps your communication skill needs to be polished for clarity. I think automakers thought about that and finds it not reliable or otherwise, they would have made it already.... even in concept car.

I think the current Direct Fuel Injection is the closest it ever gotten to near diesel characteristics, yet the immense amount of pressure they must use to inject the fuel and prevent backflash and preignition in that critical injection timing.

[rob101]

Ahhh... Mr. Smarty Pants eh? Perhaps your communication skill needs to be polished for clarity. I think automakers thought about that and finds it not reliable or otherwise, they would have made it already.... even in concept car.

I think the current Direct Fuel Injection is the closest it ever gotten to near diesel characteristics, yet the immense amount of pressure they must use to inject the fuel and prevent backflash and preignition in that critical injection timing.
Yes I do need to be polished and i assure you i am working on that ;) , I am sorry for the misunderstanding my comment about the lecture was in jest. Its funny when someone is on the same page as you yet disagrees with you lol.

Anyway, I found VW FSI to be very interesting in that the charge is stratified in the chamber that is you have fuel air mixture around the middle of the chamber but around the outside there is only pure air (unlike port injection where the mixture is practically homogenous. So in theory if you look at the whole cylinder's A/F ratio it runs very lean, but in reality the area with the stratified charge has a good AF mixture. And when the engine runs (in FSI mode at least the golf my friend has) it sounds like a diesel too.

[Morgenster]

Ahhh... Mr. Smarty Pants eh? Perhaps your communication skill needs to be polished for clarity. I think automakers thought about that and finds it not reliable or otherwise, they would have made it already.... even in concept car.


I think Mercedes is working on that in their latest concept.

[Paul in NZ]

is the mitsubishi "gdi" system the same as VW FSI(or is it the other way around....)I know Mitsubishi had had GDI for some time.

[rob101]

is the mitsubishi "gdi" system the same as VW FSI(or is it the other way around....)I know Mitsubishi had had GDI for some time.
I think it in its basic concept is the same paul, it seems to be a direct injection which results in a stratified charge which is then ignited. injector technology (FSI uses piezo injectors i think)and the swirl/spray of the injector maybe different though