Hardcore enough?

[Jon K]

Test fitting some stuff getting ready for my wastegate placement - here is my manifold, cylinder head, turbo, and 4" downpipe all bolted together!

What do you guys think? Crazy enough?

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Fabrication/turboassembly1.jpg

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Fabrication/turboassembly3.jpg


Jon

[Qube]

Looks like something from The Matrix...

[Dave M]

Yes, that looks crazy enough jon. Almost hard to believe it all fits in there.

[Paul in NZ]

you sure the bonnet(hood) will close?

[Alexlind123]

Reminds me of a deranged octopus.

[gmannino]

Kind of reminds me of a plasma type futuristic monster's gun from a video game or something. Plenty hardcore.

[Macv]

There's some kind of weird spider eating you engine.

Looks badass.

[rob101]

I can't remember whether you did all that welding the cutting of the pipes yourself. I assume you did. looks great btw, good workmanship.

[Macv]

Sounds dumb but can I get a highres of the top pic? mmrozelle@bsu.edu or my AIM

[632 Regal]

+1


Yes, that looks crazy enough jon. Almost hard to believe it all fits in there.

[Scott C]

All I can think of is "it's alive"

:)

[Nick.Hay]

you sure the bonnet(hood) will close?

+1... Will it fit??

[Jon K]

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Progress/bay2.jpg

Of course she fits :)

Thanks for the kind words guys - I did do the welding and chopping of the pipes myself - it was a learning experience. I now understand why people charge the prices they do to make custom manifolds!

[uscharalph]

Very COOL!!!

[Ross]

Tight fit. Heat wrap on that downpipe?

[repenttokyo]

Yes, that looks crazy enough jon. Almost hard to believe it all fits in there.


i hear that on an almost nightly basis.

[repenttokyo]

Tight fit. Heat wrap on that downpipe?


that too.

[Jon K]

Tight fit. Heat wrap on that downpipe?

Yeah though I've done the ceramic coating before, it doesn't hold up as reliably as simply use DEI heat wrap, so I will probably do that on the downpipe and exhaust manifold.

[Jeff N.]

Impressive.

You have way too much time on your hands. I think you need a job.

[filip00]

that downpipe looks ridiculously large...two exhaust pipes in the back?

great job fitting it all together, i love the exhaust headers

[Jon K]

Impressive.

You have way too much time on your hands. I think you need a job.

Haha the job keeps me plenty busy, its just that I no longer have weekends free :(

[Jon K]

that downpipe looks ridiculously large...two exhaust pipes in the back?

great job fitting it all together, i love the exhaust headers

Thanks - nope just 4" piping all the way to the back

[Jon K]

BAMF


http://blowneuroz.com/525/Fabrication/tank1.jpg

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Fabrication/tank2.jpg

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Fabrication/tank3.jpg

'nuff said

[BigKriss]

what is that for?

[Macv]

BAMF


'nuff said

Now THAT's cool. Powder-coat it wrinkle black to match everything.

[rob101]

what is that for?
looks like a fuel tank pick up don't really know either though.
all these mysterous parts with anodised fittings. takes me back to FSAE.

[Jon K]

what is that for?

That's the fuel tank - the sump is welded to the tank with 10AN fittings for the external fuel pump :)

So basically it'll be hanging out the ass of the car - I think it's plain bad ass.

I also sold my fuel rail which was -6AN which is .375" internal and -10AN is 0.625" ID, which is what the rest of my fuel line is:

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Fabrication/10anrail3.jpg

[skr]

damn... pure hotness...

what fuel pump will u use? and is there room for an airfilter or will u loose a high-beam?

[Jon K]

There's room for an airfilter

I am using a Aeromotive A1000 external fuel pump

as seen here:

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Parts/fuelsystem1.jpg

[Booster]

Jon......looks like your head has shrunk !:p ..Very nice. Where did you source your sold extruded fuel rail stock from ? IYDMMA.:)
Vinny

[bad_manners_god]

WOW, thats a monsterous Manifold and Turbo. Are you using the M50 head?

[Jon K]

Vin - Ross Machine

Bad Manners - stock M50NV head, only difference is I drilled the 10mm holes in the head and block out to 1/2" for 1/2" ARP head studs.

[bad_manners_god]

Vin - Ross Machine

Bad Manners - stock M50NV head, only difference is I drilled the 10mm holes in the head and block out to 1/2" for 1/2" ARP head studs.

Any forged Rods, Pistons or major upgrades? What kind of boost you running?

[Jon K]

Any forged Rods, Pistons or major upgrades? What kind of boost you running?

Forged rods forged pistons forged crankshaft, bore out and stroked M50 to ~2.9L

30 - 35 psi with some undetermined amount 150 - 250 hp direct port nitrous injection and direct port methanol injection.

[bad_manners_god]

Forged rods forged pistons forged crankshaft, bore out and stroked M50 to ~2.9L

30 - 35 psi with some undetermined amount 150 - 250 hp direct port nitrous injection and direct port methanol injection.

Wow, how much did the Forged Parts and Stroke kit costs? Nitrous is a bit hardcore for me.

[Jon K]

Wow, how much did the Forged Parts and Stroke kit costs? Nitrous is a bit hardcore for me.

There is no kit, I have used a crank shaft from another engine and forged rods and custom forged pistons to match. There no "kit" per se. It would probably be <$2,000 for just the parts if you wanted to do it. You would need to machine the block a considerable amount though. When using 1/2" head studs with 90 - 100 ft lbs of torque, the block will distort causing the bores to not be parallel to one another. You must factor that in when doing this sort of engine build - we designed a plate that gets bolted to the block using the 1/2" studs so that when we machine the block out the block is already under stress. It simulates the cylinder head being bolted down. Then you get the fun of boring the cylinders out, etc.

The general summary is that its not exceptionally expensive - you can come in around $2k for the built internals and crank in parts alone, but if you don't have access to a machine shop or don't know how to yourself, it will cost you a ton of money in machine time and assembly time.

[bad_manners_god]

There is no kit, I have used a crank shaft from another engine and forged rods and custom forged pistons to match. There no "kit" per se. It would probably be <$2,000 for just the parts if you wanted to do it. You would need to machine the block a considerable amount though. When using 1/2" head studs with 90 - 100 ft lbs of torque, the block will distort causing the bores to not be parallel to one another. You must factor that in when doing this sort of engine build - we designed a plate that gets bolted to the block using the 1/2" studs so that when we machine the block out the block is already under stress. It simulates the cylinder head being bolted down. Then you get the fun of boring the cylinders out, etc.

The general summary is that its not exceptionally expensive - you can come in around $2k for the built internals and crank in parts alone, but if you don't have access to a machine shop or don't know how to yourself, it will cost you a ton of money in machine time and assembly time.

The machining I won't be able to do, but the actual installing of parts I will.

Are the 1/2's Neccesary for the ARP bolts? Aren't there ARP bolts already made for the M50b25?

[Jon K]

The machining I won't be able to do, but the actual installing of parts I will.

Are the 1/2's Neccesary for the ARP bolts? Aren't there ARP bolts already made for the M50b25?

Yes ARP already makes a stud for the M50 head. However, its a 10mm stud which is fine for most uses but I have had too many experiences with friends blowing headgaskets even only 20 psi of boost with 10mm head studs. Some of the big horsepower guys on the other forum are running 11mm studs, but they require a timesert (an insert) into the stud hole because the 11mm minor diameter is the same as the 10mm major diameter so it doesn't tap nicely. I went 1/2" because I want as little chance of lifting the cylinder head as possible. 20 - 25 psi does it on 10mm head studs after a short while, it will probably not do it at all with 1/2" studs at 30 - 35 psi as proven by one other user running 900+ rwhp.

10mm studs torque to about 60 - 65 ft lbs. 1/2" studs (12.7mm) torque to 90 - 100 ft lbs. Much more clamping force and way less likely to lift.

Here is a pic of 1/2" studs in my m50 block. Excuse rust scale, haven't bead blasted it yet.

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Machining/machining7.jpg

The end result is ARP hardware for 1/2" head studs, main studs, and 7/16" rod bolts.

[bad_manners_god]

Yes ARP already makes a stud for the M50 head. However, its a 10mm stud which is fine for most uses but I have had too many experiences with friends blowing headgaskets even only 20 psi of boost with 10mm head studs. Some of the big horsepower guys on the other forum are running 11mm studs, but they require a timesert (an insert) into the stud hole because the 11mm minor diameter is the same as the 10mm major diameter so it doesn't tap nicely. I went 1/2" because I want as little chance of lifting the cylinder head as possible. 20 - 25 psi does it on 10mm head studs after a short while, it will probably not do it at all with 1/2" studs at 30 - 35 psi as proven by one other user running 900+ rwhp.

10mm studs torque to about 60 - 65 ft lbs. 1/2" studs (12.7mm) torque to 90 - 100 ft lbs. Much more clamping force and way less likely to lift.

Here is a pic of 1/2" studs in my m50 block. Excuse rust scale, haven't bead blasted it yet.

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Machining/machining7.jpg

The end result is ARP hardware for 1/2" head studs, main studs, and 7/16" rod bolts.

So the 1/2 Head Bolts aren't really necessary for a 350-400hp motor with forged internals boosting about 10-15psi?

[Jon K]

No, just about all of the stuff I've done isn't necessary for low power goals. Don't follow my foot steps if your target is 350 - 400 ;)

[dacoyote]

I half expect to hear about it coming to life.... still very cool

[Jon K]

I half expect to hear about it coming to life.... still very cool

What does that mean?

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

Unbelievable!! Nice job so far but agree with Ross, you got a lot of insulation to do, not to mention the mother of all engine mounts to hold it all in!! The holy bible of turbo-charging suggests that you may gain an advantage by tapering the ehaust 6X the diameter downstream of the turbo,Monster cosworths had what looked like a reverse meaphone about a foot from the turbo, but they also had anti-lag which allowed neat fuel through the turbo-bad move- but bloody loud, which would sound VERY different! Hope you`re keeping the shots as they will make a hell of a story.

[Jon K]

Unbelievable!! Nice job so far but agree with Ross, you got a lot of insulation to do, not to mention the mother of all engine mounts to hold it all in!! The holy bible of turbo-charging suggests that you may gain an advantage by tapering the ehaust 6X the diameter downstream of the turbo,Monster cosworths had what looked like a reverse meaphone about a foot from the turbo, but they also had anti-lag which allowed neat fuel through the turbo-bad move- but bloody loud, which would sound VERY different! Hope you`re keeping the shots as they will make a hell of a story.

Thanks Barney - I will be using straight 4" piping as based solely on flow it is able to support waaaaay over my horsepower requirement according to Graham Bell's book. its also a pretty traditional size for the 2JZGTE powered supras, don't think I'll have any back pressure issues.

I too run anti-lag but only from a standstill, not constantly as Cosworth rally cars did. This helps me launch the car from standstill with positive manifold pressure. As you can imagine it does make some racket.

here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsZ45GRo7Eg

Motor mounts isn't too big of a deal if you can keep the transmission mounts down. I just bought the newest set of UUC trans mounts with aluminum cups. I had the earlier revision, but the new one is a higher durameter urethane with a bolt straight through. I might make a custom aluminum engine mount, but I am not sure yet.

[Paul in NZ]

so this "clamping plate" sits between head and block?Is the block machined to allow for the thickness of the plate?Is the o/a engine height higher,and it all comes together for rod length,comp ratio and so on...You have some pretty good resourses there Jon.....Is all this your own work or are there guys helping you who have done/learnt some hard lessons along the way?so what is the rwhp you are hoping for?.APrt from you r clutch how are you modding the driveline?

[Jon K]

so this "clamping plate" sits between head and block?Is the block machined to allow for the thickness of the plate?Is the o/a engine height higher,and it all comes together for rod length,comp ratio and so on...You have some pretty good resourses there Jon.....Is all this your own work or are there guys helping you who have done/learnt some hard lessons along the way?so what is the rwhp you are hoping for?.APrt from you r clutch how are you modding the driveline?

Sorry Paul I think I may not have described it well enough.

The torque plate is only for machining the block out. Because the engine requires the head, there is torque on the block that is naturally not present if the block were sitting without the head bolted to it. Its not usually a big deal with stock size bolts or studs. However going to a stud requiring 90 - 100 ft lbs of torque, when the head is finally torqued down on the block it is sure to distort the block some. So, in the interim, you machine a plate about 1.75" that simulates the cylinder head. You bolt it down to the block when you bore the engine out so that the bores are straight with the torque on the block. Otherwise, if you bored it out with no torque plate, you'd have parallel bores with no head, but when you go to torque that baby down to 90 ft lbs and it starts pulling on your block, your bores can be off more than a few thousandths. It is only used for machining the bores given my situation. Its not required, but it is never going to hurt, for someone to use a torque plate if they are honing or boring their engine.

As for the driveline. We're hoping the ZF 310Z, which is stronger than the Getrash, will hang in there. If not, I have access to a couple other ZF 320Z (late model 328/M3 trans). The ZF 310Z is found in the '95 M3 and is coincidentally what comes in a 1992 525, so I lucked out with a strong trans. Other than that I'll be moving to a 4 puck clutch from a 6 puck clutch and perhaps a aluminum flywheel with stainless steel friction surface. I intend to use the stock drive shaft for as long as it stays in the car. We're building a front and back driveshaft retention hoop in case the car does decide to expel the drive shaft. It is also more than likely a requirement to have the shaft hoop if I want to track the car (as is a roll cage which I will have to consider later on). Other than that we're hoping and praying the stock 3.23LSD rear end stays in along with the axles. Should the drive shaft puke we are going to have a single piece drive shaft custom made locally, and the same place deals with axles and we can get their input on that when/if the time comes.

Given I want to run 30 - 35 psi in "go get 'em mode" and 150 - 250 horsepower on nitrous, I suspect my rwhp figure should be over 800 hp conservatively. That's assuming two things:

1) I have the balls to actually drive the car with over 800 rwhp
2) The intake manifold doesn't crack/burst with 35 psi inside it

If 2, then we'll get a sheet metal intake made and go that route.

[Paul in NZ]

aha I see,yhat makes more sense to me....extremely good work Jon,,extremely good!

[BigKriss]

What will be the estimated boost pressure with pump fuel Mr K?


Sorry Paul I think I may not have described it well enough.

The torque plate is only for machining the block out. Because the engine requires the head, there is torque on the block that is naturally not present if the block were sitting without the head bolted to it. Its not usually a big deal with stock size bolts or studs. However going to a stud requiring 90 - 100 ft lbs of torque, when the head is finally torqued down on the block it is sure to distort the block some. So, in the interim, you machine a plate about 1.75" that simulates the cylinder head. You bolt it down to the block when you bore the engine out so that the bores are straight with the torque on the block. Otherwise, if you bored it out with no torque plate, you'd have parallel bores with no head, but when you go to torque that baby down to 90 ft lbs and it starts pulling on your block, your bores can be off more than a few thousandths. It is only used for machining the bores given my situation. Its not required, but it is never going to hurt, for someone to use a torque plate if they are honing or boring their engine.

As for the driveline. We're hoping the ZF 310Z, which is stronger than the Getrash, will hang in there. If not, I have access to a couple other ZF 320Z (late model 328/M3 trans). The ZF 310Z is found in the '95 M3 and is coincidentally what comes in a 1992 525, so I lucked out with a strong trans. Other than that I'll be moving to a 4 puck clutch from a 6 puck clutch and perhaps a aluminum flywheel with stainless steel friction surface. I intend to use the stock drive shaft for as long as it stays in the car. We're building a front and back driveshaft retention hoop in case the car does decide to expel the drive shaft. It is also more than likely a requirement to have the shaft hoop if I want to track the car (as is a roll cage which I will have to consider later on). Other than that we're hoping and praying the stock 3.23LSD rear end stays in along with the axles. Should the drive shaft puke we are going to have a single piece drive shaft custom made locally, and the same place deals with axles and we can get their input on that when/if the time comes.

Given I want to run 30 - 35 psi in "go get 'em mode" and 150 - 250 horsepower on nitrous, I suspect my rwhp figure should be over 800 hp conservatively. That's assuming two things:

1) I have the balls to actually drive the car with over 800 rwhp
2) The intake manifold doesn't crack/burst with 35 psi inside it

If 2, then we'll get a sheet metal intake made and go that route.

[attack eagle]

Sorry Paul I think I may not have described it well enough.

The torque plate is only for machining the block out. Because the engine requires the head, there is torque on the block that is naturally not present if the block were sitting without the head bolted to it. Its not usually a big deal with stock size bolts or studs. However going to a stud requiring 90 - 100 ft lbs of torque, when the head is finally torqued down on the block it is sure to distort the block some. So, in the interim, you machine a plate about 1.75" that simulates the cylinder head. You bolt it down to the block when you bore the engine out so that the bores are straight with the torque on the block. Otherwise, if you bored it out with no torque plate, you'd have parallel bores with no head, but when you go to torque that baby down to 90 ft lbs and it starts pulling on your block, your bores can be off more than a few thousandths. It is only used for machining the bores given my situation. Its not required, but it is never going to hurt, for someone to use a torque plate if they are honing or boring their engine.

As for the driveline. We're hoping the ZF 310Z, which is stronger than the Getrash, will hang in there. If not, I have access to a couple other ZF 320Z (late model 328/M3 trans). The ZF 310Z is found in the '95 M3 and is coincidentally what comes in a 1992 525, so I lucked out with a strong trans. Other than that I'll be moving to a 4 puck clutch from a 6 puck clutch and perhaps a aluminum flywheel with stainless steel friction surface. I intend to use the stock drive shaft for as long as it stays in the car. We're building a front and back driveshaft retention hoop in case the car does decide to expel the drive shaft. It is also more than likely a requirement to have the shaft hoop if I want to track the car (as is a roll cage which I will have to consider later on). Other than that we're hoping and praying the stock 3.23LSD rear end stays in along with the axles. Should the drive shaft puke we are going to have a single piece drive shaft custom made locally, and the same place deals with axles and we can get their input on that when/if the time comes.

Given I want to run 30 - 35 psi in "go get 'em mode" and 150 - 250 horsepower on nitrous, I suspect my rwhp figure should be over 800 hp conservatively. That's assuming two things:

1) I have the balls to actually drive the car with over 800 rwhp
2) The intake manifold doesn't crack/burst with 35 psi inside it

If 2, then we'll get a sheet metal intake made and go that route.
If you can find someone that uses Ductile iron instead of steel, it is much gripper.

[Jon K]

If you can find someone that uses Ductile iron instead of steel, it is much gripper.

Do you mean for the clutch friction surface? Most use steel because its easier to machine and its actually pretty light all things considered. I don't know of any one using an iron friction surface as I think it'd wear fast too.

[Jon K]

What will be the estimated boost pressure with pump fuel Mr K?

Probably around 25 psi or more since I'll be running 93 octane but methanol supplemental.

[jonny5]

you said you've got an ALS. It sounds like you have the charged air running back into your exhaust manifold, as apposed to keeping the throttle cracked and retarding the ignition timing. Is this right?
Just out of curiosity I was wondering how well these systems worked. I'd assume very well, but I've only done very little research on the topic.

[Jon K]

you said you've got an ALS. It sounds like you have the charged air running back into your exhaust manifold, as apposed to keeping the throttle cracked and retarding the ignition timing. Is this right?
Just out of curiosity I was wondering how well these systems worked. I'd assume very well, but I've only done very little research on the topic.

No - the throttle is wide open, foot holding the pedal all the way down, the timing is negative -10 degree with a switch activation. This means the mixture is actually ignited when the exhaust valves open up. It ignites the mixture in the exhaust manifold spooling the turbo in neutral

[jonny5]

ok ... so the engine remains at an idle (or close to it) because most of the engergy from the ignition is pushed out the exahust, and through the turbo. Am I right, or far from it? Then do you have your ignition timing switch mounted to your cluch, so when you let it out the timing changes back to sometime before the exhaust valve opens?
Forgive me if I'm asking simple questions, but this is all very new to me.

[jonny5]

wait ... I get it. It takes into account the spead your going, not weather the cluch is engauged or not. When your not moving, and when you are at wide open throtle it retards the timing 10 degrees.
ok

[Jon K]

wait ... I get it. It takes into account the spead your going, not weather the cluch is engauged or not. When your not moving, and when you are at wide open throtle it retards the timing 10 degrees.
ok

Nope. Its not as complex. Its a manual button on my dash board near my fog lights. I press and hold it and floor it. It holds the engine aorund 4500 - 4800 rpm. It cuts spark at 4500 rpm but continues spraying fuel. The engine is then under load fully without a gear engaged and the fuel combusting late is holding the motor revving. The car will build boost and the RPMs will rise, but you don't want them too high or when you do slip the clutch you'll just spin the tires. So at 4800 rpm I have whats called a hard limiter - it cuts spark and fuel. So at 4500 rpm it will cut 8 out of 9 sparks, combusting fuel in the exhaust with -10 timing, the rpm will rise, the boost will build, and at 4800 rpm it hard cuts fuel and spark both to limit the engine from going over 4800 rpm which is when you hear the "BANG BANG BANG" noise.

I can do this from stationary or from a roll down the highway. When I would do pulls against another car I would just stick the clutch in while moving and floor it with the button in, the guy one car over would be like wtf, and then by time he realizes, I am gone with full boost already and no turbo lag.

[jonny5]

ah ... I like it! I'm at work, so I haven't been able to wach the video, but I'll have to look it up some time at home.

[attack eagle]

Do you mean for the clutch friction surface? Most use steel because its easier to machine and its actually pretty light all things considered. I don't know of any one using an iron friction surface as I think it'd wear fast too.

the fast dsm'ers prefer them :) , fidanza uses ductile iron inserts, ACT for example uses chromoly steel.

[Jon K]

eh standard will do me fine :)

[Paul in NZ]

When I would do pulls against another car .
ahhh you just brake with your left foot while increaing throttle slightly(enough to get the boost,on the signal release ,brake floor throttle....gone

[Jon K]

Thats brake boosting. Antilag builds boost fast and without braking :)

[Paul in NZ]

Thats brake boosting. Antilag builds boost fast and without braking :)
yes know but in the meantime you sound like a rwc at the start line with your car poppin and banging and prolly shootin flames out the exhaust.....oh wait thats a GOOD thing right? :)

[Jon K]

Haha you should have seen the flames when I started using methanol - i went from making 7 psi to making 15 - 16 and shooting huge fireballs :)

[jonny5]

Haha you should have seen the flames when I started using methanol - i went from making 7 psi to making 15 - 16 and shooting huge fireballs :)

I want a video of that!!

[Jon K]

Well here is one video from the ground of the wastegate with methanol

The wastegate opens at 15 - 16 psi the car is obviously not moving and is in anti-lag mode.

It was very loud and very hot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrIzEJHvAMo

[Booster]

..........can you post a pic of your turbo oil return bung in the oilpan Jon ?
Vinny

[Jon K]

Picked two of these up guys:

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Parts/innovatetc4.jpg

Innovate Motorsports 4 channel EGT logger. It will give me 8 channels to monitor individual EGT temperatures along with a sensor in the collector before the turbo and a sensor in the down pipe after the turbo

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Tuning/egts.jpg

No pics right now of oil pan drain Vin

[rob101]

Picked two of these up guys:

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Parts/innovatetc4.jpg

Innovate Motorsports 4 channel EGT logger. It will give me 8 channels to monitor individual EGT temperatures along with a sensor in the collector before the turbo and a sensor in the down pipe after the turbo

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Tuning/egts.jpg


are those bungs for the thermocouples?
I am guessing you're going to mount then on the manifold branches before the turbo. Its funny because i was wondering the other day how you got the data for your EGT stuff. as in where and how the sensors mount.

[Jon K]

yeah rob

6 egts in the manifold right at the cylinder head

[Jon K]

Little update

My friend sent me pics of our torque plate he's almost done

This is the torque plate for those who were asking

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Fabrication/torqueplate.jpg

[Sam-Son]

Pics don't seem to be comin up...anyone else have the same problem?

[Jon K]

Some people wanted to know what the fuel sump would look like

Here it is!

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Progress/sumpedtank3.jpg

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Progress/sumpedtank1.jpg