E36 uses M50 engine, right? Turbo Questions inside...

[Jon K]

If this is one of those $1500 kits, dont.

[Jon K]

Man so much bad information in this thread.

[bad_manners_god]

I've decided to forget Coil-Overs and go for a bolt-on turbo kit running low boost(6-8psi) on stock internals.

I found a bolt-on kit for the E36 6 CYL which has the same exhaust manifold as an E34 right?

Which means, the rest of the kit should bolt on except for the intercooler piping which I know I'll need to modify.

So, question time for you turbo guru's

1.) E36 Exhaust Manifold the same as E34?
2.) If above awnser is yes...What else do I need to worry about not fitting from E36 Turbo kit?
3.) Is it hard to make a custom Downpipe because it doesnt come with the kit.
4.) What kind of power can I expect from this setup going through an automatic transmission(for now)
5.) Any other things I should be worried about the setup?

Tuning is not a problem.

[bad_manners_god]

If this is one of those $1500 kits, dont.

It's more like 800, but there's got to be a good reason?

[healtoeit]

It's more like 800, but there's got to be a good reason?
A real turbo kit

http://www.activeautowerke.com/viewproduct.aspx?id=Product04

but i have no idea if this will fit on the e34 m50!

[bad_manners_god]

A real turbo kit

http://www.activeautowerke.com/viewproduct.aspx?id=Product04

but i have no idea if this will fit on the e34 m50!

Thats the problem, 10000 reasons more than i can explain.

Low boost is better than no boost.

[healtoeit]

I've decided to forget Coil-Overs and go for a bolt-on turbo kit running low boost(6-8psi) on ]stock internals.

The stock internals part is something that hits me wrong, JonK (or anyone for that matter) please butt in at any time if I am wrong!
adding boost to your engine, epically one with that many miles miles on it will but more stress then was intended from the factory on the parts. Hence new injectors and so on. these parts are old and should be replaced before adding on a turbo as to stop them from breaking once you have the turbo. JonK doesn't have to worry about his because he is building everything brand new!
Another thing to think about before you even conider a turbo is if you have upgraded you breaks at all? adding 30hp to you car is enough in my mind to warrant a big break kit.
Their is no point in going fast if you cant stop!

[bad_manners_god]

The stock internals part is something that hits me wrong, JonK (or anyone for that matter) please butt in at any time if I am wrong!
adding boost to your engine, epically one with that many miles miles on it will but more stress then was intended from the factory on the parts. Hence new injectors and so on. these parts are old and should be replaced before adding on a turbo as to stop them from breaking once you have the turbo. JonK doesn't have to worry about his because he is building everything brand new!
Another thing to think about before you even conider a turbo is if you have upgraded you breaks at all? adding 30hp to you car is enough in my mind to warrant a big break kit.
Their is no point in going fast if you cant stop!

I have #19 injectors I haven't installed yet. I don't have the kind of money that JonK is putting into his engine. I can rebuild my engine at school since that's what i'm learning and will only cost me parts. But forged parts is not in my budget.

As far as brakes go, we all know how damn good BMW brakes are, not to mention that I have PBR Full Organic Pads as well as Cross Drilled Rotors front and rear to disapate the heat. Anything other than that will warrant the really expensive brake fluid, the pads and rotors will be almost double if not more to replace when they wear out.

And why do I need to stop that fast? If I see a cop? I'll hear the cop before I ever see them.

[healtoeit]

As far as brakes go, we all know how damn good BMW brakes are
It doesn't matter how good you breaks are. You cannot get away from the fact that you are driving a 3,700lb tank. A heavier car requires more force to stop then a lighter car. Add to that a higher rate of speed and you asking for trouble.


And why do I need to stop that fast? If I see a cop? I'll hear the cop before I ever see them.
I'll take Bigger breaks over more horsepower any day, why? Because real races are won in the turns!

[bad_manners_god]

It doesn't matter how good you breaks are. You cannot get away from the fact that you are driving a 3,700lb tank. A heavier car requires more force to stop then a lighter car. Add to that a higher rate of speed and you asking for trouble.

I'll take Bigger breaks over more horsepower any day, why? Because real races are won in the turns!

Yea, I know my car is heavy, it's a tank, but ive taken it to some serious extremes in cornering at high speeds and never failed me without even using the brakes.

Real Races are won in turns, but if you don't have enough horsepower to keep up to the guy in front of you, the only thing big brakes are going to do for you, is stop you dead solid so you don't get embrassed after getting smoked because you invested in bigger brakes over a turbo.

Even if I put bigger brakes, it means I have to fix my ABS, because as is, if i push the brakes hard enough, they lock up real fast. which means putting more money into brakes when I started out with turbo questions.

Regardless, it's just a matter of opinion, so there is no real right awnser. In any case, I want to at least get some info on why/why not to turbo the car, it's so heavy and sluggish it can use a bit of push espically in the lower speed's.

[healtoeit]

Real Races are won in turns, but if you don't have enough horsepower to keep up to the guy in front of you, the only thing big brakes are going to do for you, is stop you dead solid so you don't get embrassed after getting smoked because you invested in bigger brakes over a turbo.
Then explain to me why I walked away from a Dodge Viper at summit point, and I passed a 2006 500hp gt mustang? There breaking distances were awful compared to mine! I lost time because I got stuck behind the mustang in a turn!
Anyway!
In terms of the turbo, what i'm saying is be careful how much power you put into the car with stock components, they were not designed for what you are making them do!

[bad_manners_god]

Then explain to me why I walked away from a Dodge Viper at summit point, and I passed a 2006 500hp gt mustang? There breaking distances were awful compared to mine! I lost time because I got stuck behind the mustang in a turn!
Anyway!
In terms of the turbo, what i'm saying is be careful how much power you put into the car with stock components, they were not designed for what you are making them do!

Dodge/Ford vs BMW.....he just saw a sexier car coming and pulled over in awe ;)

Yea, I can imagine that the stock internals weren't designed for much, that's why 6-7 psi boost, maybe 8. I'm not trying to make insane numbers, just trying to up the acceleration and torque. Plus, you just gotta love hearing a BOV.

[healtoeit]

Dodge/Ford vs BMW.....he just saw a sexier car coming and pulled over in awe ;)
word


Yea, I can imagine that the stock internals weren't designed for much, that's why 6-7 psi boost, maybe 8. I'm not trying to make insane numbers, just trying to up the acceleration and torque. Plus, you just gotta love hearing a BOV.
Have you thought of a supercharger? no turbo lag there.... and its just belts mostly...

[bad_manners_god]

Man so much bad information in this thread.

Come on, I know you want to clear it up, your like super smart with turbo's. I want to learn.

[attack eagle]

Problem #1

you need to go to a 5 speed first.

If you do it all yourself, get really good deals by sourcing everything from a local parts car with mderate miles( flywheel clutch pp, trans, xmember shifter mech DS and rear diff), and replace all the wear items, you can probably do it for $1200-1400 bucks.



That is step ONE>>> if this is not completed then all a turbo will get you is a nice piece of yard art.

[bad_manners_god]

Problem #1

you need to go to a 5 speed first.

If you do it all yourself, get really good deals by sourcing everything from a local parts car with mderate miles( flywheel clutch pp, trans, xmember shifter mech DS and rear diff), and replace all the wear items, you can probably do it for $1200-1400 bucks.



That is step ONE>>> if this is not completed then all a turbo will get you is a nice piece of yard art.

The Turbo will still work but it won't give much power going through and automatic tranny vs going through a manual tranny.

I can probably get all the parts for cheaper and source most of the parts through contacts. Could you make me a list of the parts I have to change when I swap trannies(with names preferably, no abbrvieations - thanks)? Is the rear diff necessary or can it pass through my stock LSD?

[Jon K]

Come on, I know you want to clear it up, your like super smart with turbo's. I want to learn.

1) if you turbo charge your car on that automatic you WILL break the transmission

2) superchargers have no lag - false. The superchargers that are available for the M50 are called centrifugal superchargers. They are essentially turbochargers with a gear reduction unit and a belt driven compressor wheel. This makes them not only have lag but have a LOT of lag. Yes they start making boost low rpm, but they don't achieve "max boost" until your red-line right before you ****. So basically you may only have 1 psi at 3500 rpm, 3 at 4500 rpm, 6 at 5500+ rpm, and right at your red-line you'll make your peak boost. That's really really boring and makes the car no where near as efficient as with a turbocharger. There's a saying that goes around CF blowers that they're "All the lag, none of the boost" of a turbo.

3) Do you honestly think a turbo kit for under $3500 or so is going to be real? Dude, those ebay junk turbos are barely turbos at all. they last about 100 - 200 miles before they explode filling your engine with shards of broken compressor wheel and housing. A normal turbo should cost you about $750+ by itself. A normal turbo uses bolts or a v-band clamp to hold the housings together. The SS autochrome turbos are held together with EPOXY. The eBay/SSAutochrome manifold for the BMW can work - I used one in my Holset turbo build. However, I modified it and built an up pipe and yeah its not a good manifold by itself, it has no wastegate port and it CRACKs. I used their manifold to build a former turbo setup and came in around $3000 - $3500. All I used was their manifold, the rest of it was quality TiAL parts and a Holset turbo.

4) You say "tuning is no problem". How do you figure that?

[dacoyote]

For what it sounds like you want to do.. you could do a supercharger... however... if you don't want to buy a new engine when your cheap parts break....

May I suggest selling your 525 and getting a 530 or a 535 with a chip... 20 extra hp... and no worries about your 800 turbo coming apart....

[repenttokyo]

I
And why do I need to stop that fast? If I see a cop? I'll hear the cop before I ever see them.


i think this post is the number one reason why you shouldn't get a turbo kit.

most people don't need to stop fast because of cops. most people need to stop fast to avoid hitting something. or because there is a stop sign. or a red light. or kids crossing the road.

[repenttokyo]

Even if I put bigger brakes, it means I have to fix my ABS, because as is, if i push the brakes hard enough, they lock up real fast. which means putting more money into brakes when I started out with turbo questions..

are you saying your ABS is broken? Why are you putting money into performance parts that should be going into maintenance?

[repenttokyo]

Then explain to me why I walked away from a Dodge Viper at summit point, and I passed a 2006 500hp gt mustang? There breaking distances were awful compared to mine! I lost time because I got stuck behind the mustang in a turn!


for the viper, it was only because you were up against a bad driver. I've braked a Viper hard before, the 160 to zero is really really impressive, those cars stop extremely well. Much much better than our e34's. There is no comparison.


The Dodge Viper is really, really quick, able to cover 0-60 mph in well less than 4 seconds flat, with 60-0 braking distance of less than 100 feet, better than a Porsche 911, and a 0-100-0 time of 12.5 seconds,

[jonny5]

I don't mean to sound rude, and this is simply my opinion, but I'd put first things first. First fix what's wrong with the car (a.k.a. the abs). Then if you want more performance, and unless you have another car you can drive when this one breaks down, get rid of probem areas fist. Such as high milage engine internals, and the auto transmission. I'd bet a manual trans would give you close to the same gains as such a simple turbo "kit," and with less troubles, but I could be wrong.

[jonny5]

oops ... I didn't realize there was a second page before I posted.

[repenttokyo]

The ABS sensors dont work, and I don't like ABS anyway, the light doesnt bother me, i took it out.

Everything everyone is saying is a matter of opinon really, I taken in consideration what I would like to do first, and that's the turbo IF it's feasable at this point and swap the tranny at the bare minimum.

Suspension is still yet to be decided between NEX Coil-Overs and Bilstien/Vogtland. Brakes aren't a concern for me anytime soon. Mine work fine (apart from the abs - which i don't like anyway.)

safety is not a matter of opinion, dude. i share the roads with you.

[Dave M]

The Turbo will still work but it won't give much power going through and automatic tranny vs going through a manual tranny.

I can probably get all the parts for cheaper and source most of the parts through contacts. Could you make me a list of the parts I have to change when I swap trannies(with names preferably, no abbrvieations - thanks)? Is the rear diff necessary or can it pass through my stock LSD?

Attack Eagle, have you completed the list of parts Yet ;) ?

Bad manners, will you have enough scratch left for you turbo 'kit' once you fix your abs and dump your slushbox?

Dave M

[M20Turbo]

1) if you turbo charge your car on that automatic you WILL break the transmission

2) superchargers have no lag - false. The superchargers that are available for the M50 are called centrifugal superchargers. They are essentially turbochargers with a gear reduction unit and a belt driven compressor wheel. This makes them not only have lag but have a LOT of lag. Yes they start making boost low rpm, but they don't achieve "max boost" until your red-line right before you ****. So basically you may only have 1 psi at 3500 rpm, 3 at 4500 rpm, 6 at 5500+ rpm, and right at your red-line you'll make your peak boost. That's really really boring and makes the car no where near as efficient as with a turbocharger. There's a saying that goes around CF blowers that they're "All the lag, none of the boost" of a turbo.

3) Do you honestly think a turbo kit for under $3500 or so is going to be real? Dude, those ebay junk turbos are barely turbos at all. they last about 100 - 200 miles before they explode filling your engine with shards of broken compressor wheel and housing. A normal turbo should cost you about $750+ by itself. A normal turbo uses bolts or a v-band clamp to hold the housings together. The SS autochrome turbos are held together with EPOXY. The eBay/SSAutochrome manifold for the BMW can work - I used one in my Holset turbo build. However, I modified it and built an up pipe and yeah its not a good manifold by itself, it has no wastegate port and it CRACKs. I used their manifold to build a former turbo setup and came in around $3000 - $3500. All I used was their manifold, the rest of it was quality TiAL parts and a Holset turbo.

4) You say "tuning is no problem". How do you figure that?

Jon, I could of not said it any better. You are alright for taking the time to explain to us all and share your expertise. I have had my turbo for 7 years and she is still running strong. I did however have the engine taken completely apart and rebuilt specificity for the turbo. Stroker, dished pistons, heavy duty everything, blueprinted and dyno. Your right, you can not just add a turbo and expect for the the stock parts to survive.......

[attack eagle]

Attack Eagle, have you completed the list of parts Yet ;) ?

Bad manners, will you have enough scratch left for you turbo 'kit' once you fix your abs and dump your slushbox?

Dave M

yep.. read my swap thread on BF.C...
but I am not going to type out 2 hour worth of part numbers... I did that once already.
Bad manners is a big boy, he can do it himself.

Basically you need everything associated with the manual.
open real oem after you cannabalize a parts car, and order everything you missed or want to replace.

$600+ at bma best pricing.

And I said Diff for a reason... you'll find out when you SEARCH.

IF you have $2000 you can probably complete the swap, and maybe upgrade a few parts while you are at it. You'll drop a second or so from your 0-60 time, mostly from having a lower first, and pick up a lot of responsiveness at any speed from being able to put the car right in the powerband.

[nizmainiac]

just my personal opinion, make it handle better first, get used to it, then go for your turbo or supercharger afterwards AND don't forget to upgrade the brakes for bigger ones, as others have said in this thread the more power you have the bigger brakes you'll need, just look at what jon k is planning to do to his

[bad_manners_god]

The ABS sensors dont work, and I don't like ABS anyway, the light doesnt bother me, i took it out.

Everything everyone is saying is a matter of opinon really, I taken in consideration what I would like to do first, and that's the turbo IF it's feasable at this point and swap the tranny at the bare minimum.

Suspension is still yet to be decided between NEX Coil-Overs and Bilstien/Vogtland. Brakes aren't a concern for me anytime soon. Mine work fine (apart from the abs - which i don't like anyway.)

[repenttokyo]

Jon: Tuning won't be a problem because my neighbour has a custom rides shop and does a bunch of custom turbo, custom SC, tuning, exhaust. audio, video....and he's a friend.

what does he tell you when you ask him the questions you are asking here?

[Jon K]

3 - 4 psi? Are you serious? I ran 15 on a stock M50 with 200k miles on it no issues.

[repenttokyo]

He said on stock internals, running about 3-4psi and realistic gains of 30hp. And the Turbo is crap.

It's already getting further and further back as an idea, and S52 swap with 5 spd is more realistic with better gains.

A E46 M3 engine is what engine code??? S54?

the minimum most stock motors can run in terms of boost is 8 psi. The MINIMUM. I would say you are getting some bad advice.

An S54 is way out of your budget. It is a completely custom solution requiring extensive fabrication and wiring. Not to mention the engine is not inexpensive.

[Jon K]

I had 200k miles on my M50 @ 15 psi, the worst that happened was it leaked a bunch of oil on the street out the HG in some place. However using an ebay turbo kit you would probably get about 100 ft before your motor fails. I would still like to hear why you think "tuning is not a problem"

[Ross]

"I was doing 250 with 7 on board actually racing a supra non-turbo on the highway out-pulling him."
Who needs a turbo then?

[Jon K]

LOL touche

[Jon K]

nice man, was that with a thicker head gasket or completely stock? what kind of fuel did you run 92 PON/AKI?


Stock original head gasket with stock original head bolts and 93 octane

[bad_manners_god]

"I was doing 250 with 7 on board actually racing a supra non-turbo on the highway out-pulling him."
Who needs a turbo then?

Because it's highway and it just keeps putting out power.

Jon: Tuning won't be a problem because my neighbour has a custom rides shop and does a bunch of custom turbo, custom SC, tuning, exhaust. audio, video....and he's a friend.

[Jon K]

Does he have any idea how to chip tune a Motronic 3.1 DME? Because there are only a handful of people that do and none of them "do audio". You really should research this and think it over more.

[bad_manners_god]

what does he tell you when you ask him the questions you are asking here?

He said on stock internals, running about 3-4psi and realistic gains of 30hp. And the Turbo is crap.

It's already getting further and further back as an idea, and S52 swap with 5 spd is more realistic with better gains.

A E46 M3 engine is what engine code??? S54?

[bad_manners_god]

Does he have any idea how to chip tune a Motronic 3.1 DME? Because there are only a handful of people that do and none of them "do audio". You really should research this and think it over more.

I'll ask him, but he is an electrical engineer and knows tons about cars, went to university for 5 years, etc....if he doesn't know how, he'll know someone who knows how.

15psi with what turbo, how much did that setup cost?

[bad_manners_god]

the minimum most stock motors can run in terms of boost is 8 psi. The MINIMUM. I would say you are getting some bad advice.

An S54 is way out of your budget. It is a completely custom solution requiring extensive fabrication and wiring. Not to mention the engine is not inexpensive.

I can get the S54 Engine and 6Spd tranny for 5000, but the rest of wiring and such like you mentioned would be rather difficult to say the least.

[rob101]

3 - 4 psi? Are you serious? I ran 15 on a stock M50 with 200k miles on it no issues.
nice man, was that with a thicker head gasket or completely stock? what kind of fuel did you run 92 PON/AKI?

[healtoeit]

1)
2) superchargers have no lag - false. The superchargers that are available for the M50 are called centrifugal superchargers. They are essentially turbochargers with a gear reduction unit and a belt driven compressor wheel. This makes them not only have lag but have a LOT of lag. Yes they start making boost low rpm, but they don't achieve "max boost" until your red-line right before you ****. So basically you may only have 1 psi at 3500 rpm, 3 at 4500 rpm, 6 at 5500+ rpm, and right at your red-line you'll make your peak boost. That's really really boring and makes the car no where near as efficient as with a turbocharger. There's a saying that goes around CF blowers that they're "All the lag, none of the boost" of a turbo.

NEVER herd of that kind of set up! thanks for clearing up my mistake though! :D

[Ross]

WE are still waiting to see the bearings out of that motor, Jon.

[RobPatt]

if it's the GM whateverwhatever 410 then that 410 is supposed to be how much torque in nm it can handle, which I think equates to about 224ft/lbs..which you'll exceed w/that turbo....


I've decided to forget Coil-Overs and go for a bolt-on turbo kit running low boost(6-8psi) on stock internals.

I found a bolt-on kit for the E36 6 CYL which has the same exhaust manifold as an E34 right?

Which means, the rest of the kit should bolt on except for the intercooler piping which I know I'll need to modify.

So, question time for you turbo guru's

1.) E36 Exhaust Manifold the same as E34?
2.) If above awnser is yes...What else do I need to worry about not fitting from E36 Turbo kit?
3.) Is it hard to make a custom Downpipe because it doesnt come with the kit.
4.) What kind of power can I expect from this setup going through an automatic transmission(for now)
5.) Any other things I should be worried about the setup?

Tuning is not a problem.

[Jon K]

WE are still waiting to see the bearings out of that motor, Jon.


I will pop a main cap tomorrow and rod cap

[Dr. evil]

the more power you have the bigger brakes you'll need

i really dont see any truth to that.

more like the heaver the car is the bigger brakes are needed

[Paul in NZ]

i really dont see any truth to that.

more like the heaver the car is the bigger brakes are needed

what is so difficult to understand?You think and M5,540,etc have bigger brakes just cos they are heavier?The energy that is dissipated by the brakes increases by the square of the speed....a turbo 525 will be faster than a non turbo 525 so the brakes will be asked to do more than they were intially designed to do...a couple of hard stops on the freeway or a long downhill after a spirited drive could easily see you out of brakes,esp combined poor maintenance which we could be dealing with here!

[Dr. evil]

The energy that is dissipated by the brakes increases by the square of the speed....a turbo 525 will be faster than a non turbo 525 so the brakes will be asked to do more than they were intially designed to do...a couple of hard stops on the freeway or a long downhill after a spirited drive could easily see you out of brakes,esp combined poor maintenance which we could be dealing with here!
i do hard stop everyday, i drive fast everyday. so does that mean i need bigger brakes NO.


You think and M5,540,etc have bigger brakes just cos they are heavier?

YES and if ist an M they make all Ms better then the original bimmers. Sure bigger stuff is better but its not an absolute necessity

[Paul in NZ]

i do hard stop everyday, i drive fast everyday. so does that mean i need bigger brakes NO.

if you had a turbo your stops would be from a higher speed...and //M cars(and bigger engine cars) have bigger brakes because THEY NEED THEM,just as any turbo cars should.Its not a matter for discussion.Faster cars need better brakes.PERIOD

[DaveVoorhis]

if you had a turbo your stops would be from a higher speed...and //M cars(and bigger engine cars) have bigger brakes because THEY NEED THEM,just as any turbo cars should.Its not a matter for discussion.Faster cars need better brakes.PERIOD
A turbo may give you somewhat higher top speed, but it's unlikely you'll actually see it unless you've got access to a runway, dragstrip, or un-patrolled motorway. What a turbo mainly gives you is higher acceleration; for this, you don't necessarily need bigger brakes unless the weight of the vehicle has significantly increased. Your 100 to zero time isn't going to be any different with a turbo as without, regardless of how quick your zero to 100 time might be.

On the other hand, a turbo might encourage an overall more aggressive driving style, for which bigger brakes may be more likely to get you out of trouble, but this would be equally true if you were more aggressive without a turbo.

[repenttokyo]

The whole brakes story has gotten way out of hand. The speed your going should be relative to time of day, amount of traffic, weather, if you keep within limits depending on these factors you don't need bigger brakes.

EX: I'm doing 120km/hour in a non-turbo 525i....braking distance is 140feet (just an example)

I'm doing 120km/hour in a turbo 525i...braking distance is 141feet(extra wieght from turbo setup)


what if you are doing 250 with 7 people in your car?

[repenttokyo]

What is the result of cars being fitted with ABS? People learn they can drive closer to each other before they risk everyone's lives adn wreck the cars that cost a fortune in energy to build. I'm more concerned about uninitiated drivers than operable ABS. Both are irelevent anyway, since we won't be able to drive petrol cars in 20 years or fly in planes burning kerosene.


hey, i'm not saying I like ABS, because I don't, but just that having components of your car broken that you can't be bothered fixing, particularly braking components, speaks of a level of maintenance that is probably below standard.

in any case, we've all seen these threads before: lots of enthusiasm, no follow through. Don't think there is any real danger here, but if I see a silver 525 wagon on the highway I'll be sure to steer clear in case it's about to undergo a top speed test or something like that. no offense, bad manners.

[repenttokyo]

again weight is only one part of the equation and its not as critical as the horsepower aspect. If you have a car capable of doing 0 - 100 - 0 - 100 - 0 -100 in short time span, you need big brakes even if the car is 2500 lbs or 3500 lbs. If you have the horsepoewr to create velocity, you need brakes to take away that velocity.


weight becomes more of an issue for brakes if you are towing something. just something to keep in mind.

[repenttokyo]

Btw - you want to know how safe it is to drive without ABS? Let me show you:

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Off%20Road/bad1.jpg

Car is fine, I am fine. This happened this morning on the way to work. So don't tell me how unnecessary ABS is.

that is a shitty accident to happen to you, but as someone who grew up without ABS until a few years ago in the Canadian winters, I can tell you it's only necessary if you are used to it as a driver's aid. It can definitely be very handy though in a number of situations.

I think it is good for people who are not familiar with driving on snow and ice, but I don't think it's good for people who somehow think it will make them stop faster and therefore they leave less distance around them when travelling in inclement weather - because ABS stops you slower than non-ABS equipped braking systems.

It's similar to AWD. If you have it and you are used to it / know what it can do, it's a boon. If you barrel through the snow forgetting that it gives you traction but doesn't help you stop, you are doomed.

[bad_manners_god]

My car is maintained very well, I do all the necessities, change oil 3000km with 5W-40 full synthetic, inspect bushings, suspension components, brake lines, gas lines, etc at least once a month.

The whole brakes story has gotten way out of hand. The speed your going should be relative to time of day, amount of traffic, weather, if you keep within limits depending on these factors you don't need bigger brakes.

EX: I'm doing 120km/hour in a non-turbo 525i....braking distance is 140feet (just an example)

I'm doing 120km/hour in a turbo 525i...braking distance is 141feet(extra wieght from turbo setup)

[bad_manners_god]

A turbo may give you somewhat higher top speed, but it's unlikely you'll actually see it unless you've got access to a runway, dragstrip, or un-patrolled motorway. What a turbo mainly gives you is higher acceleration; for this, you don't necessarily need bigger brakes unless the weight of the vehicle has significantly increased. Your 100 to zero time isn't going to be any different with a turbo as without, regardless of how quick your zero to 100 time might be.

On the other hand, a turbo might encourage an overall more aggressive driving style, for which bigger brakes may be more likely to get you out of trouble, but this would be equally true if you were more aggressive without a turbo.

Well said, I would be the latter of the 2 options.

[bad_manners_god]

what if you are doing 250 with 7 people in your car?

That was 2 years ago, I don't do **** like that anymore. I still do 250, but only with 2 or 4 to balance the car's center of gravity. Plus my Subwoofer, Amp, Capacitor and Rear Strut bar are in the trunk now.

[genphreak]

safety is not a matter of opinion, dude. i share the roads with you.What is the result of cars being fitted with ABS? People learn they can drive closer to each other before they risk everyone's lives adn wreck the cars that cost a fortune in energy to build. I'm more concerned about uninitiated drivers than operable ABS. Both are irelevent anyway, since we won't be able to drive petrol cars in 20 years or fly in planes burning kerosene.

Soon, cars will have to be made from rustless composites that bounce off each other, weigh 100kg (fat people will get a real and rare advantage as they will blow away less frequently on the freeway than the rest of us). However we'll only be able to drive fast when we have a full charge and no shopping on board... nice tho, that the cars won't need a tranny, exhaust OR brakes... :) Nick

[Jon K]

Guys, the more power you have the bigger brakes you need, its mostly irrelevant of vehicle weight.


Look at it this way. If you have an E34 520i and you have an E34 M5, which needs bigger brakes? The answer is very very easy - the one which can accelerate faster. Why is that the answer? Because if you have 15" brakes up front on a 520i but you can only get the car from 20 - 85 in 15 seconds, well that 15 seconds is time for brakes to cool to the point where big brakes aren't necessary. If you have a car that is able to accelerate to a speed that requires braking, like a 20-85 into a turn, and then you come back out of that into another turn, then you need good brakes.

Its directly correlative to how much power you have. When you have a heavy car you usually have a slower car, so in the grand scheme of things a Suburban will not have as big of brakes, proportionally, as an E34 M5.

[Jon K]

Btw - you want to know how safe it is to drive without ABS? Let me show you:

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Off%20Road/bad1.jpg

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Off%20Road/bad2.jpg

and the reason I ditched it in the shoulder:

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Off%20Road/bad3.jpg

Short story - going down hill at 15 mph mostly engine braking. get around the bend and see a car perpendicular to the road way and in my lane (car was 1/3 out, in the pic above they actually pushed it off the road so cars wouldn't crash). In the on coming lane was a Ford truck with a 8 - 9' snow plow IN MY LANE. The gentleman did not feel comfortable driving on his side of the road, so he occupied some of mine. Long story short, I had to hit the car, hit the truck head on, or try and bring it to a stop. I tried to bring it to a stop down that long icy hill to which I had my front right wheel sensor fail and the front right wheel lock up pulling the car violently to the side of the asphalt, and from there I had nothing else to do but aim for the gap in the trees.

Car is fine, I am fine. This happened this morning on the way to work. So don't tell me how unnecessary ABS is.

[attack eagle]

with more power the need for bigger brakes exists. period.

why?

Because the brakes should be the most powerful system in the car... period.

IF YOU GO WOT and hit the brakes the car should SLOW DOWN... and that probably isn't going to happen when you double the power and keep the same brakes. Those brakes are marginal on a touring... they were intended for a car 400 lbs lighter!

But you will do what you want, as always.

me i'd spend the $1200 or less to upgrade.

[Jon K]

again weight is only one part of the equation and its not as critical as the horsepower aspect. If you have a car capable of doing 0 - 100 - 0 - 100 - 0 -100 in short time span, you need big brakes even if the car is 2500 lbs or 3500 lbs. If you have the horsepoewr to create velocity, you need brakes to take away that velocity.

[Jon K]

that is a shitty accident to happen to you, but as someone who grew up without ABS until a few years ago in the Canadian winters, I can tell you it's only necessary if you are used to it as a driver's aid. It can definitely be very handy though in a number of situations.

I think it is good for people who are not familiar with driving on snow and ice, but I don't think it's good for people who somehow think it will make them stop faster and therefore they leave less distance around them when travelling in inclement weather - because ABS stops you slower than non-ABS equipped braking systems.

It's similar to AWD. If you have it and you are used to it / know what it can do, it's a boon. If you barrel through the snow forgetting that it gives you traction but doesn't help you stop, you are doomed.

Heh I live in PA and am very familiar with driving on snow and ice - I had an ABS failure here. One wheel sensor faulted and caused ABS to not actuate on the front right wheel. My E34 does not have ABS and I am used to not having it. But I also grew used to having it on this car, and then when I braked, it was only 3/4 there. Just a testament how important it is that your **** be in order. My E34 does not have ABS because it does not go out in the rain or snow any more.

[repenttokyo]

Just a testament how important it is that your **** be in order.


amen to that!

[Dr. evil]

sorry double post

[bad_manners_god]

Heh I live in PA and am very familiar with driving on snow and ice - I had an ABS failure here. One wheel sensor faulted and caused ABS to not actuate on the front right wheel. My E34 does not have ABS and I am used to not having it. But I also grew used to having it on this car, and then when I braked, it was only 3/4 there. Just a testament how important it is that your **** be in order. My E34 does not have ABS because it does not go out in the rain or snow any more.

So basically, because your ABS sensor failed, the wheel locked up causing the car to pull violently to the right. If I interepted this correctly, ABS is the reason why the wheel locked up and hit the tree.

The ABS system on my car doesnt work and I don't like the system, therefore, how can I justify spending money on something I don't like. In any case, once my car is done, it's not going out in winter, I'll get a beater for winter.

tokyo: I know this is another thread of a crazy scheme but I'm trying to get some idea's as to what direction to go in first as far as mods are concerned.
ATM, it looks like the manual swap first, and then S52 Swap or get a real turbo.

[Dr. evil]

120mph is the same velocity in a 190 hp car as to a 300 hp car correct ?

only thig that would change the stoping distance is the cars weight.

[attack eagle]

120mph is the same velocity in a 190 hp car as to a 300 hp car correct ?
Yep, and 170mph in a 190 crank hp (or a150 whp) car is the same velocity as in a 380bhp car. velocity is a speed and direction.

300 hp? pshaw.
real power isn't measured in Hp anyway... engine power (like braking) is measured in torque... the ability to do work.
HP is a made up number based on mine ponies x 50% and tossed around like it means something other than torque x rpm / 5252.


300 ft/lbs of torque? 400 ft lbs of torque? the first should be rather easy(especially at the crank)wif a turbo, but is still double what the factory had... no matter what the measured whp is... 220 or 500.
I was cranking out mid 5 second 0-60s in a 3400 car with 210-215 whp.
All big, low hitting, flat as a board torque. nothing like having over 200 ft lbs of torque from 2100 - redline.

HP is just convenient label to throw around... an f22c1 s2000 makes more hp than an m50... but putting that engine in your Touring would be a REALLY poor idea unless you were willing to run auto rear gearing with a stick. then you would make close to the same acceleration numbers as the stock m50.


TO reiterate for the nonbeleivers:


the brakes should still be able to dissipate the entire engine output which is the TORQUE... and more... in case you ever get stuck WOT or even partial throttle. Double the power and you SHOULD double your braking power. especially in a turbo car where even partial throttle braking will be more power to dissipate than the stock engine put out at peak.

and no, the correct thing to do when stuck WOT is NOT turn the engine off. unless your car has non power brakes and non power steering.

[infurno]

Also - the purpose of ABS is NOT to stop the car. Obviously pulsing the brakes at any frequency will stop a car worse than just locking them up and praying. The point of ABS is to allow you to control the car better while trying to slow down. If the ABS hadn't been there I probably would have careened into the Corolla on the street or into that plow truck. You CANNOT steer with locked up wheels in snow.

"lock them up and pray" no offense, but that has to be the worst advice I have ever heard.

I disagree. The purpose of ABS is to stop the car. Since when does 'control' not include the ability to stop?

your tires only have traction if they are turning and have a chance to grip. When the tires stop turning its a recipe for disaster because your stopping distance will be much further. If its snow, its the snow building up under your tires and your car is just sliding on soft snow. If its water the water builds up under your tires making a cushion and your just sliding on a layer of water. Also the treads under your car only function when moving.

The second you feel the car sliding let off the breaks especially if you don't have ABS.

If you don't believe me, try it for yourself. Turn off ABS and nail the breaks on a wet rainy day or snow. The second your wheels lock your control is gone and your just going to keep on moving. If you ease them in, and are careful not to let them stop you will stop pretty quick.

Sorry to hear about the wreck Jon K, glad that your ok.

[infurno]

My argument is supporting ABS - I think the OP should fix his car before he even thinks about adding power. It doesn't sound like he's very responsible speeding with 7 people in the car. Seeing someone irresponsible with 150 hp is one thing, seeing them irresponsible with 350 is another. I have sped, I have one ticket, and it has made me more responsible.


Oh yeah well in that case sorry about the misunderstanding Jon K. I support you on that :)

[Ross]

Jon, Glad you're okay. Would have been nice to see another Disco bite the dust though.
You mention a sensor failed and that same wheel then locked up.
If a wheel sensor fails in one those things then ABS functions but not for that wheel??? Jeez what a shitbox. Nothing personal but I just can't find a single redeeming quality for the Disco.

[Jon K]

Jon, Glad you're okay. Would have been nice to see another Disco bite the dust though.
You mention a sensor failed and that same wheel then locked up.
If a wheel sensor fails in one those things then ABS functions but not for that wheel??? Jeez what a shitbox. Nothing personal but I just can't find a single redeeming quality for the Disco.

Yeah the abs failed and the 3 wheels brake but the front wheel locks and acts like a ski on the snow... its interesting to say the least.

As far as brakes - nearly any car can do a single stop from 85mph to 0 without much issue - yeah some will take longer than others but brake rotor diameter and caliper size only changes that moderately. The primary factor stopping your car is clamping force and pad friction. The car is designed to stop well, but it is not designed to continuously stop well. If you had 500 hp in an E34 ... ;) ... your issue wouldn't be stopped from 120 to 60 occasionally - the car will do that. The problem is, you have the power necessary to brake 120-60 then juice it back up to 120 and brake to 60, and then juice it back up to 120 all within a short amount of time, you need more brakes. You don't need more brake because the car is heavy - that doesn't make sense. A heavy car is a slow car. You need new brakes if you intend to do spurts to high speed, then brake in a turn, then spurts to high speed, then brake in a turn... you don't need big brakes now because by time you braked 120 - 45, by time you get back up to 120 your brakes are cool again.

[Jon K]

So basically, because your ABS sensor failed, the wheel locked up causing the car to pull violently to the right. If I interepted this correctly, ABS is the reason why the wheel locked up and hit the tree.

The ABS system on my car doesnt work and I don't like the system, therefore, how can I justify spending money on something I don't like. In any case, once my car is done, it's not going out in winter, I'll get a beater for winter.

tokyo: I know this is another thread of a crazy scheme but I'm trying to get some idea's as to what direction to go in first as far as mods are concerned.
ATM, it looks like the manual swap first, and then S52 Swap or get a real turbo.

Also I should note that the sensor failing is a common LR problem. If I had all 4 wheels lock up I would not have been able to control the vehicle and probably would have hit the plow truck head on. As needless to say 3 wheels with ABS can steer a car. 4 wheels without ABS is called sledding.

Also - the purpose of ABS is NOT to stop the car. Obviously pulsing the brakes at any frequency will stop a car worse than just locking them up and praying. The point of ABS is to allow you to control the car better while trying to slow down. If the ABS hadn't been there I probably would have careened into the Corolla on the street or into that plow truck. You CANNOT steer with locked up wheels in snow.

[Jon K]

Overheard in an Ohio confessional
"I have sped, I have one ticket, and it has made me more responsible"

I havent sped since. I only have one ticket ever. No speeding for me any longer. When I do speed it'll be on a race track where I will be sure to have adequate brakes to stop me :)

[Jon K]

"lock them up and pray" no offense, but that has to be the worst advice I have ever heard.

I disagree. The purpose of ABS is to stop the car. Since when does 'control' not include the ability to stop?

your tires only have traction if they are turning and have a chance to grip. When the tires stop turning its a recipe for disaster because your stopping distance will be much further. If its snow, its the snow building up under your tires and your car is just sliding on soft snow. If its water the water builds up under your tires making a cushion and your just sliding on a layer of water. Also the treads under your car only function when moving.

The second you feel the car sliding let off the breaks especially if you don't have ABS.

If you don't believe me, try it for yourself. Turn off ABS and nail the breaks on a wet rainy day or snow. The second your wheels lock your control is gone and your just going to keep on moving. If you ease them in, and are careful not to let them stop you will stop pretty quick.

Sorry to hear about the wreck Jon K, glad that your ok.

Trust me it sounds great on paper. I know how to drive, believe me. When driving a large SUV down a icy hill I'd consider snow to be traction. When you brake unexpectedly and your steering wheel goes light, what do you do? Pump the brakes. What does the abs do? Pumps the brakes high freq. Are you stopping with the brakes being pumped/fluttering? No you're not stopping especially not down a hill coverd in ice and in 5000 lb car. All ABS does is allow you to manipulate the angle at which your car is sliding. Believe me I use ABS EVERYDAY to get home and to work:

http://blowneuroz.com/525/Off%20Road/bad5.jpg

That is my driveway - at the bottom of the driveway is a pond. If you miss the right hand turn coming down that nasty ass hill, you are going in a pond and bringing some pine trees with you. Again, ABS will help you stop. But in ice and snow your braking distance is like 10x longer than normal, and if you're doing 25 and you need to slow down, ABS will let you slow down and control the cars direction better than if you pump the pedal manually. Sorry but I cannot pump my foot 60hz. My argument is supporting ABS - I think the OP should fix his car before he even thinks about adding power. It doesn't sound like he's very responsible speeding with 7 people in the car. Seeing someone irresponsible with 150 hp is one thing, seeing them irresponsible with 350 is another. I have sped, I have one ticket, and it has made me more responsible.

[Ross]

Overheard in an Ohio confessional
"I have sped, I have one ticket, and it has made me more responsible"

[wyze]

yo remind me on monday to call for your turbo manifold, i know where you can get one for a decent price

[bad_manners_god]

yo remind me on monday to call for your turbo manifold, i know where you can get one for a decent price

Nice, I'll get all the parts for the turbo and while I'm waiting i'll swap out that slushbox.