Clutch advice... Got noisy real quick...

[e34.535i.sport]

Hey guys, feels like the car's taking a hissy fit on me... Its been trouble free (ish) for a while now its punishing me with a few things at once! Over the course of today the clutch has started to deteriorate or so it seems (i'm not very knowledgeable in this area at all)... This together with a stupid whistle going on somewhere is enough to drive you up the wall.

Syptoms have developed quickly, seemed fine this morning (3 mile journey to work!) but this afternoon I noticed 'feeling' things through the clutch pedal when I had my foot on it... Like vibrations and things spinning. You can now also hear something spinning as I depress the clutch... And it doesn't seem to go down in a smooth movement when you press it slow. When my foot is off the pedal the only sound is the Dual Mass Flywheel clunking now and again (but more regular than usual), but as soon as I push the pedal down even a bit you can hear something... at one point it sounded like ball bearings rattling around. On the positive side there are no symptoms while driving, gears seem to go in fine and stay in, even with rapid acceleration.

I'm concerned as it has come on so fast and I don't want to be stranded when it goes, I've been there before on a previous car. For quite a while I noticed a low squeal when keeping the pedal depressed (like in the drive thru when the noise bounces off the wall), which sounded like a bird in the engine... It's now changed to a more metallic spinning sound.

So the question is - is my clutch or part of it on its way out?

The car has 154k on the clock so its reasonable timing I suppose...

Next question is - What's best, buying a kit and doing it myself, or taking it to a clutch specialist? The reason I ask is that I don't trust anybody else messing with my car but I can see this is a bitch of a job.

I also assume other parts will need replacing with it (i'e nuts/bolts, flywheel?, guibo?, etc) which just won't get done at a shop... whereas I would do everything to a T (taking me ten/a hundred times longer however).

Give me your opinions, I'm fairly confident with fixing the car now and I've done a lot of repairs/maintenance but this is in a new league and I'm working off the floor which isn't ideal.

Thanks guys... :(

[Adnan]

Hi,

Sure sounds like a throwout bearing going bad, a fairly typical wear item. Of course, replacing it means you're in the innards up to your elbows so as you said, you may as well go the whole hog.

Don't replace the flywheel, it's very expensive ($1100 US) and it can't be refaced, I'm told. If the dual mass is functioning properly, which you can test by grabbing one mass and rotating against the other, you are okay (should not be sloppy loose but spring loaded). If your flywheel is toast, consider an E28 clutch swap. It's supposed to be a bolt-on.

Guibo, pilot bearing, clutch pivot, clutch fork and of course pressure plate, t/o bearing and disc are prime candidates. Consider the O2 sensor too since you'll be dropping the exhaust. If you still have the original one, you probably should replace it. An excellent opportunity to check the shifter bushings for wear since the gearbox is out. Rear main seal as well while you're there.

Sounds like a lot but I had this done a few years ago and the shop charged around $350 for labor. I brought my own parts to them. While I enjoy DIY as much as the next BMW nutcase, er, enthusiast, this was one job I was very glad I handed off. Having a lift, tranny jack and some of the special tools and socket wrenches makes a world of difference to the task. Your decision, ultimately depending on how much of this you have at your disposal.

Either way, you'll find the car to be very much better in the driveline after the changes.

Regards,
Adnan

[e34.535i.sport]

Hi,

Sure sounds like a throwout bearing going bad, a fairly typical wear item. Of course, replacing it means you're in the innards up to your elbows so as you said, you may as well go the whole hog.

Don't replace the flywheel, it's very expensive ($1100 US) and it can't be refaced, I'm told. If the dual mass is functioning properly, which you can test by grabbing one mass and rotating against the other, you are okay (should not be sloppy loose but spring loaded). If your flywheel is toast, consider an E28 clutch swap. It's supposed to be a bolt-on.

Guibo, pilot bearing, clutch pivot, clutch fork and of course pressure plate, t/o bearing and disc are prime candidates. Consider the O2 sensor too since you'll be dropping the exhaust. If you still have the original one, you probably should replace it. An excellent opportunity to check the shifter bushings for wear since the gearbox is out. Rear main seal as well while you're there.

Sounds like a lot but I had this done a few years ago and the shop charged around $350 for labor. I brought my own parts to them. While I enjoy DIY as much as the next BMW nutcase, er, enthusiast, this was one job I was very glad I handed off. Having a lift, tranny jack and some of the special tools and socket wrenches makes a world of difference to the task. Your decision, ultimately depending on how much of this you have at your disposal.

Either way, you'll find the car to be very much better in the driveline after the changes.

Regards,
Adnan

Hey there Adnan, thanks for your post its exactly what I wanted to know. Can you just clarify what the rear seal is please? Also, is the throw-out bearing an alternative name for the release bearing? I assume if I get a clutch kit all clutch parts will be included anyway?!

Think I'll investigate costs today, I can see this being upward of £350... Ah well, not the worst time for it to happen at least. Is there a way to check if the Dual Mass is ok whilst the car is together as I'm seriously considering a shop doing it?

Many thanks.

[repenttokyo]

Have you been driving it hard because of the new chip?

[SC David]

Yeah, throwout bearing and release bearing are the same things. Mine is going bad too, and makes a popping noise when I'm on and off the clutch quickly, like when backing out of my driveway and watching for pedestrians and other cars. I expect it will evolve to sound and feel more like yours.

[Adnan]

Hey there Adnan, thanks for your post its exactly what I wanted to know. Can you just clarify what the rear seal is please? Also, is the throw-out bearing an alternative name for the release bearing? I assume if I get a clutch kit all clutch parts will be included anyway?!

Think I'll investigate costs today, I can see this being upward of £350... Ah well, not the worst time for it to happen at least. Is there a way to check if the Dual Mass is ok whilst the car is together as I'm seriously considering a shop doing it?

Many thanks.

Hi,

Glad my post was of assistance. As has been said by others, the throwout bearing and release bearing are the same thing but note that the pilot bearing is something else - it's the bearing that supports the end of the gearbox input shaft and is nestled within the crankshaft.

The rear main seal is an oil seal that is on the crankshaft where it exits the rear plate. Just as there is one in front, there is one in the rear and if the gearbox is off, it's a very simple operation.

The flywheel can be checked while on the car, once the gearbox is removed. It does help to have the thing up on a lift so that you can get both hands on it and rotate it.

I don't think a standard clutch kit gives you all the parts we are discussing. It will probably be just be the disc, pressure plate and throwout bearing. The rest will have to be ordered separately. Fortunately, they are not too expensive.

Regards,
Adnan

[e34.535i.sport]

Yeah, throwout bearing and release bearing are the same things. Mine is going bad too, and makes a popping noise when I'm on and off the clutch quickly, like when backing out of my driveway and watching for pedestrians and other cars. I expect it will evolve to sound and feel more like yours.

Thanks for clearing that up for me... Gets confusing when one thing has several different names I can tell you!

I've had what you describe for a long time, so hopefully yours won't develop too quickly. I never thought it was a problem... It is now!

[e34.535i.sport]

Been ringing around, got quotes for labour and its not looking too bad...
Could be worse.

Going to get the Guibo changed at the same time along with the transmission mounts, can anyone confirm that this is the correct part - #2 in the diagram

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD12&mospid=47382&btnr=26_0042&hg=26&fg=10

Oh and I think this is good news - the whistle is part of the clutch problem I think as it was happening louder this morning and pushing the clutch down was stopping the noise... I can't believe it after all the time I've spent searching for a vaccum leak!

[whiskychaser]

Going to get the Guibo changed at the same time along with the transmission mounts, can anyone confirm that this is the correct part - #2 in the diagram

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD12&mospid=47382&btnr=26_0042&hg=26&fg=10

[/B]
That is a guibo aka flexijoint. If you are making a list add that there is a right and wrong way to torque the bolts. Wrong and you need another one

[Ross]

With the trans out of the car replacing all of the bushings in the shift linkage is a piece of cake and ~$50 worth of parts for everything. At the least have those parts looked over.
Doing this job independantly is a bitch, doing now is almost a gimme for labor.

[e34.535i.sport]

That is a guibo aka flexijoint. If you are making a list add that there is a right and wrong way to torque the bolts. Wrong and you need another one

Please elaborate...

[e34.535i.sport]

Have you been driving it hard because of the new chip?

No not particularly - Done a few hard accelerations but no more than normal, but going to 6k revs rather than my old top of 5k... I have to drive it less hard generally now as the throttle response is much better!

I shouldn't imagine holding onto each gear that little bit longer would kill the clutch, although it has seemed to go downhill very quickly... It is about time for a new one though I would say - they reckon between 70 -80k miles for a clutch which makes this its third one.

[e34.535i.sport]

Hey decided to take it to a local BMW specialist... He's gave me a good price ad will throw the Guibo and transmission mounts while there.

Do I need to ask him to make sure the flywheel is cleaned off - as I've heard it can cause issues if its dirty?

Anything else I need to think about?! I'm looking at £300 so far inc parts and labour.

Thanks guys...

[healtoeit]

I replaced my clutch. Yes, it is a bitch! You can do it, but it takes forever! I would get you clutch changed asap. Mine completely went within one week of making noises (178k). The flywheel is probably fine, But when you have the transmission off the car, replace all and every bushing/seal you can reach, you don't want to do this again for a long time. If you have any questions about the procedure just ask!

[whiskychaser]

Please elaborate...
You need to hold the bolt head while you torque the nut or the rubber may be damaged. Pretty logical. But you may not be able to get a socket on the nut-only the bolt. That's certainly the case with mine. And you might be tempted to torque the bolt head instead

[e34.535i.sport]

With the trans out of the car replacing all of the bushings in the shift linkage is a piece of cake and ~$50 worth of parts for everything. At the least have those parts looked over.
Doing this job independantly is a bitch, doing now is almost a gimme for labor.

Hey Ross, can you elaborate on that for me what bushes do you mean? I will be getting him to throw on some new transmission mounts and a new guibo... What else would you recommend?

*Please be specific as I haven't a clue when it comes to transmissions... They scare me. :p

[e34.535i.sport]

I replaced my clutch. Yes, it is a bitch! You can do it, but it takes forever! I would get you clutch changed asap. Mine completely went within one week of making noises (178k). The flywheel is probably fine, But when you have the transmission off the car, replace all and every bushing/seal you can reach, you don't want to do this again for a long time. If you have any questions about the procedure just ask!

Hey thanks for the kind offer... I will!!!

Question - could you give me details on what you replaced when you done yours? Should the flywheel need cleaning at all? How do you know if it needs replacing?

I'd love to have a go myself, but its a whole weekend of PITA for me VS ~£100 labour... Although you've got me tempted if i'm honest to have a bash. I don't suppose you can get it wrong, as removing the old one will explain how to attach the new one.

How much of a bitch are we talking? From what I can understand its - Remove exhaust, remove gearbox, switch clutch, put back together. Bish Bash Bosh. I'm probably grossly mistaken!

[healtoeit]

Question - could you give me details on what you replaced when you done yours?

Replaced the clutch, drive shaft seal, crank seal, pressure plate, throwout bearing and the plastic point the . I also had to replace my clutch slave cylinder, I had to manually pump it to get all the air out of the system and in the process I broke it, the slave is behind the clutch under the dash (yes that means you have to take the bottom of the driver dash out)
Here is the exact list
from this figure
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD53&mospid=47404&btnr=21_0008&hg=21&fg=05
I replaced everything but no. 2

in this figure
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD53&mospid=47404&btnr=21_0054&hg=21&fg=10
I replaced no. 1 due to a mistake.

In this figure
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD53&mospid=47404&btnr=23_0125&hg=23&fg=15
I replaced no. 4

Also, a good time to replace trans mounts, guibo, and change trans fluid. I replaced something on top of the trans that I can't remember what it was. Sorry!



Should the flywheel need cleaning at all?

You should clean it to where their is no more clutch dust on the flywheel.



How do you know if it (flywheel) needs replacing?

Honestly, mine looked great, so I did not mess with it. I do not know 100% what a bad flywheel looks like. So I can't help you in that department. However the flywheel is just a counterweight so, unless u've been dropping the clutch everywhere/ slipping the clutch then it should be fine.
FOOD FOR THINK!
This would be a great time to put in a performance flywheel!




I don't suppose you can get it wrong, as removing the old one will explain how to attach the new one.

True, but you have to be careful with the seals, they are delicate, and you have to make sure everything is lubricated with the right type of lube.


How much of a bitch are we talking? From what I can understand its - Remove exhaust, remove gearbox, switch clutch, put back together. Bish Bash Bosh. I'm probably grossly mistaken!

Not 100% mistaken! except, I would remove the drive shaft. I did not and it was a HUGE mistake! Took tons of effort to move the trans around it. The trans is really heavy, around 200lbs. If you remove the gearbox you can't get the clutch out. You need to remove the bell housing as well. Also, unless you have a lift, this is going to be done on your back, adding another drawback. An example of the hardship... to remove the he torx bolts holding in the top of the trans I had to use a 3ft extension hooked up to a universal joint, hooked up to another 3ft extension, then hooked up to a HUGE breaker bar. Not all of them are bolts, some are studs, as well, some are a nut/bolt combo.

All in all it was fun but took a long time.

I used the procedure on this website to take my off the car.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/E36-Clutch_Replace/E36-Clutch_Replace.htm

If you want me to go diggin around for the parts list I have I can get it too you later, School is a bitch atm. I wont be able too till around saturday/sunday

Hope this helps!

P.S. all my experience was taken from a 525i not a 535i, I do not know the difference!

[e34.535i.sport]

Replaced the clutch, drive shaft seal, crank seal, pressure plate, throwout bearing and the plastic point the . I also had to replace my clutch slave cylinder, I had to manually pump it to get all the air out of the system and in the process I broke it, the slave is behind the clutch under the dash (yes that means you have to take the bottom of the driver dash out)
Here is the exact list
from this figure
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD53&mospid=47404&btnr=21_0008&hg=21&fg=05
I replaced everything but no. 2

in this figure
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD53&mospid=47404&btnr=21_0054&hg=21&fg=10
I replaced no. 1 due to a mistake.

In this figure
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD53&mospid=47404&btnr=23_0125&hg=23&fg=15
I replaced no. 4

Also, a good time to replace trans mounts, guibo, and change trans fluid. I replaced something on top of the trans that I can't remember what it was. Sorry!


You should clean it to where their is no more clutch dust on the flywheel.


Honestly, mine looked great, so I did not mess with it. I do not know 100% what a bad flywheel looks like. So I can't help you in that department. However the flywheel is just a counterweight so, unless u've been dropping the clutch everywhere/ slipping the clutch then it should be fine.
FOOD FOR THINK!
This would be a great time to put in a performance flywheel!



True, but you have to be careful with the seals, they are delicate, and you have to make sure everything is lubricated with the right type of lube.


Not 100% mistaken! except, I would remove the drive shaft. I did not and it was a HUGE mistake! Took tons of effort to move the trans around it. The trans is really heavy, around 200lbs. If you remove the gearbox you can't get the clutch out. You need to remove the bell housing as well. Also, unless you have a lift, this is going to be done on your back, adding another drawback. An example of the hardship... to remove the he torx bolts holding in the top of the trans I had to use a 3ft extension hooked up to a universal joint, hooked up to another 3ft extension, then hooked up to a HUGE breaker bar. Not all of them are bolts, some are studs, as well, some are a nut/bolt combo.

All in all it was fun but took a long time.

I used the procedure on this website to take my off the car.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/E36-Clutch_Replace/E36-Clutch_Replace.htm

If you want me to go diggin around for the parts list I have I can get it too you later, School is a bitch atm. I wont be able too till around saturday/sunday

Hope this helps!

P.S. all my experience was taken from a 525i not a 535i, I do not know the difference!

Hey thanks for going to all that effort there! Very useful for me. Boked in for tuesday and got most of the extra parts I need now. I just hope this BMW specialist knows what he's doing.

Keep your fingers crossed for me!

[whiskychaser]

Hey decided to take it to a local BMW specialist... He's gave me a good price ad will throw the Guibo and transmission mounts while there.

Do I need to ask him to make sure the flywheel is cleaned off - as I've heard it can cause issues if its dirty?

Anything else I need to think about?! I'm looking at £300 so far inc parts and labour.

Thanks guys...
A clutch kit is going to cost £100-£150. A guibo is about £50. So you probably have £200 in parts alone. You need to line up the splines on the input shaft with those in the friction plate and get the end of the shaft in the little bearing in the flywheel. And you have to wiggle an unbalanced lump weighing 100kg+ while you are lying on your back? If you have access to a forklift -as I did-give it a go. Otherwise I'd say pay the man the £100 and watch him do it. That way you get the experience without the pain:D

[healtoeit]

Hey thanks for going to all that effort there! Very useful for me. Boked in for tuesday and got most of the extra parts I need now. I just hope this BMW specialist knows what he's doing.

Keep your fingers crossed for me!
Well, do man! good luck