It's the end of the world as we know it!

[Tiger]

Nah... I see this as a refreshing self reliance learning... Like any type of market, the bubble will burst.

It is good that you are taking pre-emptive strike against any possibility of service disruption. Learning where you can cut down monthly expenses... Any type of reduction in monthly expenses is great.

[Elekta]

I have a two story house. If you like you can come over and jump out the window.

Rules of recession are pretty clear. We have not yet met the criteria.

If you really want to save on gasoline, get a bike and ride to work once a week. You will save 20% of your commuting gas costs in a year if you keep it up ($850) and don't cheat. Not to mention your health costs will go down because you will be in better shape.

Burn Fat, not fuel.

peace,

mellow johnny

[pundit]

My how things change!

A year ago I wouldn't have contemplated it, but I'm now seriously considering selling my E34 while I have half a chance.
While I don't really like the idea, the time has come to be realistic.
Uneconomical cars are going to be impossible to give away before long (if not already) and impossible for the average person to fill with gas.

The world as we have known it is changing faster than most are prepared for.
The increasing cost of oil is causing price hikes across the board and many transport companies and truck drivers are in serious financial trouble due to soaring fuel prices.
Truck drivers can't afford to fill their rigs and the same applies to many farmers and also fisherman whose boats require lots of fuel.
It's a matter of time before we (in our 'comfy' Western society) begin seeing serious shortages of food and just about everything else we have taken for granted.
Reduction in transport will means goods won't get on the shelves.

There are already global food shortages.
Consider this - rice is the staple foodstuff of over half the worlds population (especially the poor) - in some areas rice has trebled in price in 8 months!
This is resulting in food riots around the world.
Check the world news... this is happening RIGHT NOW!
So combined with global food shortages, what will it be like when fuel prices have increased by another 100% within 2-3 years and keep climbing?
Of course that's providing things don't hot up between the U.S. and Iran.

An oil industry analyst predicted oil could spike to $300 per barrel almost instantly if war breaks out in that part of the Middle-East.

Our debt ridden capitalist society is literally beginning to crack under the strain and most people are so heavily in debt with mortgages, car loans and credit card debt that they already have nothing left to deal with what is now taking place... and what is happening now is only the tip of the iceberg.

As people look to their Governments for answers we will see a pattern of single term Governments as the population elects them, then dumps them after one term when things don't improve.

While not intending to be a total 'Doomsdayest' I'm attempting to 'futureproof' myself as much a reasonably possible.

Energy and food prices (not taking people's existing debt into account) are going to increase dramatically over the next few years, so they are the things that need to be considered sooner rather than later.

Fortunately I own my home outright on just under half an acre of semi-rural land, have no debt and work from home.
I'm a 20 minute walk from town or a 5 minute bicycle ride.

I have just bought two 2000 gallon water tanks, a wood burning heater and am about to install two greenhouses for growing food and a chook pen. If I cut down a few more trees to reduce the shade on the roof, solar panels will be also an option.

A friend of mine already has the following...

2,500 gallon water tank
Solar Hot Water heater
Grid connected solar photovoltaic panels (1500 watts)
Wood fired heater with hotwater loop
Greenhouse for growing veges

... and is electrifying his bicycle and building an electric car using a Daihatsu Charade fitted with an electric motor he has already purchased.

Twelve months ago I thought he was mad when he told me he was going to do this.

So tell me, is he mad now... or not?

[RockJock]

http://energybulletin.net/23259.html

[pundit]

http://energybulletin.net/23259.html
Of course massive Government debt means less essential (humanitarian) services for those who need it now... and even more who will need help when things get worse.

And the homepage headlines make for disconcerting reading... http://energybulletin.net/

[ryan roopnarine]

if you really, earnestly, want to do that, you need guns. seriously. buy whatever is legal in australia, learn how to do the basic maintenence on it, put it into a metal waterproof box, and forget about it. you'll need the maintenence knowledge when you decide to pull it out and find it needs to be lubricated.

[Bo525i]

Makes you think..

[Jon K]

Is this another australian authored thread bashing the US? Sounds like it.

You have your fall out shelter with solar death rays and self-supporting goat farms or whatever... I'll live in a house thx.

[Ross]

What, no weapons?
How much toilet paper do have left over from Y2K?

[pundit]

if you really, earnestly, want to do that, you need guns. seriously. buy whatever is legal in australia, learn how to do the basic maintenence on it, put it into a metal waterproof box, and forget about it. you'll need the maintenence knowledge when you decide to pull it out and find it needs to be lubricated.
I'm not a 'gun person', most here aren't.
However, my friend who is currently setting up his home to cope with the 'eventuating' situation is renewing his gun licence.

Unfortunately as time progresses, those who have prepared themselves will be faced with some of those who haven't, and many of those who haven't may become desperate enough to enter other peoples home looking for anything from fuel to food.

While that may be far fetched at moment, five or ten years down the track may prove different.

But it could be sooner.

Just remember, oil was at $50 a barrel in January 2007.

That's less the eighteen months ago.

Since then a barrel of oil has increased by 170% to $135 per barrel

Factor in the same percentage increase over the next eighteen months and contemplate the situation?

$365 per barrel!

Kinda makes you shudder... don't it?

[SnakeyesTx]

This is the same typical copypasta that I've been reading and hearing on the news for months... and I hate to say this, but it's really nothing new. If I was really that worried about it, I wouldn't have bought my 540 last month. I've been preaching this same sermon among close friends for at least 5 or 6 years now. Oil prices cause inflation, plain and simple.

All this talk lately about "Demand is rising so oil costs have to keep up with that demand" is pure and utter ********. It's not that demand is rising, it's the summer driving season is upon us and just like last year, and the year before that, and every other damned year before those we drive a little more than we did when half the country is buried in snow for 4-5 months out of the year. Calling it 'an increase in demand' is a convenient way of saying 'we want to milk more money out of the driving public'. This "rise in demand" is nothing new, its just a pattern repeating itself that eventually ebbs as fall comes along and people go back to work and school.

Oil causes inflation - in a nutshell. You've had to drive to work for the last 3 years, and more and more of your monthly wages are going into the tank instead of onto the table. You're hurting because your wages aren't rising at the same rate, if not even at all. You demand a raise to compensate all the extra expense. You're obviously not the only one so this isn't coming as a suprise to your employer; He or she too has to drive to work and feels the pinch. To compensate the cost of paying out more wages to the workforce, what do they do? Raise prices of their goods and services. Look at milk prices. (I chose milk since it's a common household purchase) Prices of milk has increased over 100% in the last 3 years. A couple years ago you could buy a gallon of milk for 99 cents if you looked through the circulars. You'll be lucky today to get a gallon now for 3 bucks on the average. Anyway, employer raises prices, to raise the wages for people to pay the higher fuel costs. Money starts losing its value since it takes more of it to buy the exact same product. Welcome to textbook inflation.

Recession worries? People have been speculating that there's a recession going on for almost 2 years now. This morning the quarterly trade deficiet was lowered for the first time in 4 years which is giving economists a false sense of security thinking that there is no recession. There is most certainly a recession going on. People are losing their jobs because employers can't pay out higher wages because they have to keep their prices down to remain competitive. The labor statistics say that unemployment curbed off a little less than expected. That's mainly due to the fact that some people are willing to take a pay cut, or deny themselves their annual salary increase just to keep their jobs. The federal reserve has been lowering interest rates constantly from 5% back down to 2% to try to "combat inflation" which is doing absolutely nothing of the sort. The fed rates lower interest in which the banks take out loans from the reserve. You're still at the mercy of the bank's interest rate on the loan you take from them, and many people aren't taking out loans in the first place.

Economic stimulus? Bitch, please. You really honestly think a measly 300 dollars to the average joe is going to boost the economy? Are you out of your f@#$^ mind? He's just happy he can not sweat the fuel expense for the next month or two. He can't buy that plasma tv he's wanted since he filed his taxes, or even pay for all the materials to paint his house. How are you preventing something we're already deep in? (recession)

Let's use some simple numbers here.

Gas prices have gone up in my area (Houston, Texas) about 20 cents a gallon this month. If I really push my 540 gently, that equates to 12 dollars more a month to fill my tank 3 times (about 60 gallons of fuel). Is it really that bad? 12 dollars? You're eating McDonalds a few more times this month than Benihana.

You want to sell your car, you may do so at your disclosure, but even if you bought a new Chevy HHR 4-popper, you're only going to get at best 21mpg in the city which may 3 or 4 mpg better than you're getting now? (Don't let the Highway milage they show you on TV fool you) I like my house, and I like my V8 and I drive it to gingerly to keep the milage reasonable. It gets the same gas milage per tank as my 95 525 did which speaks volumes of the efficiency of that V8.

Life should NEVER be about "cutting back" because of hard times, but simply to ADAPT to your surroundings and ending up on top.

(steps off the soap box... I had no idea it was going to turn out THIS long :D )

[repenttokyo]

Is this another australian authored thread bashing the US? Sounds like it.

You have your fall out shelter with solar death rays and self-supporting goat farms or whatever... I'll live in a house thx.


i must have missed the part where he said anything about the US dude. chillax.

[repenttokyo]

if you really, earnestly, want to do that, you need guns. seriously. buy whatever is legal in australia, learn how to do the basic maintenence on it, put it into a metal waterproof box, and forget about it. you'll need the maintenence knowledge when you decide to pull it out and find it needs to be lubricated.


crossbows and bows are better than guns. when you run out of ammo, you can't make any more.

[leicesterboy15]

scaremongering. The economy is a cycle, things are bad right now, the idea is to bide your time, don't get into debt and when things get better use it to your advantage and catch them on the way up. The economy and capitalism is a complex machine and has many parts with many variables, sometimes a load of things come at the same time which could mean good times or bad.

If your doing it for environmental reasons then go for it, I commend you, I like to think that I offset driving a 4 litre v8 by being frugal with other things and recycling as much as I can, not sure if its doing anything but it makes me feel better! But doing all these things because you think someone might come into your home to steal food and fuel? Sounds a bit too Mad Max for me.

Ultimately its your choice and each to their own but maybe you should worry less and enjoy life more. No offence meant, just my opinion.

[525i winter driver]

A year ago I wouldn't have contemplated it, but I'm now seriously considering selling my E34 while I have half a chance.
While I don't really like the idea, the time has come to be realistic.
Uneconomical cars are going to be impossible to give away before long (if not already) and impossible for the average person to fill with gas.

geez i thought even the v8s got pretty decent mileage, but i grew up in oil-town alberta where everyone drives pickup trucks.



crossbows and bows are better than guns. when you run out of ammo, you can't make any more.
+1 and they're quiet, but you're going to need a lot of them if you're the only guy in town with water and everybody knows it. and that's assuming you can find a tree.

[jofusfarr]

"we drive a little more than we did when half the country is buried in snow for 4-5 months out of the year"

That would equate to an increase in demand.

They raise prices and we still buy it because of our demand for it. Stop buying it and you'll decrease demand.

[repenttokyo]

"we drive a little more than we did when half the country is buried in snow for 4-5 months out of the year"

That would equate to an increase in demand.

They raise prices and we still buy it because of our demand for it. Stop buying it and you'll decrease demand.


and i'll also have to walk everywhere - no thanks!

[pundit]

My point was not to suggest we should give up, but neither should we sit on our hands and wait for some miracle to appear.
My friend has become pro-active rather than simply waiting for the panic to begin.
Unfortunately we have a tendency to stick our heads in the sand and then expect our Goverments to find a solution.

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=11454989

We in the West expect a secure roof over our heads, an abundance of clean safe water, the light to turn on when we throw the switch, affordable gas at the pump and food on the supermarket shelves. When any of these things are no longer routine, or affordable, people will have serious trouble coming to terms with it.
In Australia we are in the middle of a ten year drought, crop shortages, spiralling, house, fuel and grocery prices and people are beginning to hurt.

I'm also not suggesting we have to live in a bunker surrounded by razor wire and machine gun nests.
The more that make serious efforts to buffer themselves against these events the better our society will be able to cope with the changes.
I think that those that have done nothing will begin to realise their mistake within about five years from now.

Cheap gas is in reality not the answer.
It will increase demand, discourage serious alternatives and just increase the pressure in the 'oil bubble' more with greater dramatic global consequences when it bursts.
The 'bursting' in fact will be serious global unrest as the planets two biggest users of oil both begin to lay claim to what's left for themselves.

Who can contemplate gas prices reaching $10.00 a gallon in the U.S. within 3 years? I'm sure not many want to consider that.
There will be no let up in the demand for oil, and there is now limited, if no, capacity to increase supply with China and India's demand growing by the day.
China's demand for oil is likely to exceed the U.S. demand within the next 3-5 years.

But when you consider that oil was $50.00 per barrel back in only January 2007 and has increased 170% since then to around $135.00 per barrel who wants to guess what prices will be like ten years from now?... and ten years ain't all that far away.

Capitalism has been built on oil... and that is now fundamentally changing.

[repenttokyo]

Capitalism has been built on oil... and that is now fundamentally changing.


actually, capitalism has been built on cheap labour.

[ryan roopnarine]

i'd rather make ammo than make bows and arrows. auto loading ammo isn't that hard to make from scratch (including the metal bullets) and black powder ammo and powder is probably the same difficulty as making arrows. nobody will think you are a paranoid schitzophrenic when you brandish a firearm instead of a crossbow if someone tries to make off with your rabbits or whatnot.

the national highway transportation safety administration has recorded their first ever decrease in miles driven in the us since they're been recording miles driven per month. it was on fark.com during the last week, but i can't seem to find the article by using the keywords. demand doesn't seem to have any effect, and it doesn't help that our dollar is worth **** for oil trading.


ps...i take that back. bad guys in your country probably won't be able to tell the difference between a firearm chambered in .300 win mag from one chambered in 22. the same way it is here. that's usually enough to get people to go away. you can fit several thousand rounds of 22 into the space of several hundred arrows. you can keep the hotter stuff for humans, and the others for practice or procuring animals. you can re-use the cases too.

[pundit]

actually, capitalism has been built on cheap labour.
Well quite true, but without oil there would be lots of bicycles and horse **** on the streets.
It would take three weeks to cross the Atlantic by sailing ship and of course 95% of what currently exists on the shelves at Walmart... wouldn't!

Oh and there wouldn't be enough food to feed the middle class as we currently know it.

[healtoeit]

crossbows and bows are better than guns. when you run out of ammo, you can't make any more.
Thats why you don't miss ;)

Yea all this is scary ****, and you (pundt) are doing the best thing by preparing NOW.

Back to the gun point
Lets say four guys try entering your house, you shoot one of them with a pistol, he will not get back up, and his friends will run and people will know not to mess with you else.
Now, lets say the same four guys enter your house and you have a bow, you shoot the one guy, he can get back up, and his friends will just charge you.
I believe that on the theory of bows/xbows vs guns guns wins all out for defense.
If you are really serious about self-defense and protecting your family, learn a martial art and become the 301 spartan.

[healtoeit]

You have your fall out shelter with solar death rays and self-supporting goat farms or whatever... I'll live in a house thx.
ouch... a little harsh... but still... owned

[repenttokyo]

i'd rather make ammo than make bows and arrows. auto loading ammo isn't that hard to make from scratch (including the metal bullets) and black powder ammo and powder is probably the same difficulty as making arrows. nobody will think you are a paranoid schitzophrenic when you brandish a firearm instead of a crossbow if someone tries to make off with your rabbits or whatnot.

the national highway transportation safety administration has recorded their first ever decrease in miles driven in the us since they're been recording miles driven per month. it was on fark.com during the last week, but i can't seem to find the article by using the keywords. demand doesn't seem to have any effect, and it doesn't help that our dollar is worth **** for oil trading.


ps...i take that back. bad guys in your country probably won't be able to tell the difference between a firearm chambered in .300 win mag from one chambered in 22. the same way it is here. that's usually enough to get people to go away. you can fit several thousand rounds of 22 into the space of several hundred arrows. you can keep the hotter stuff for humans, and the others for practice or procuring animals. you can re-use the cases too.

well, we don't a cult of the firearm in canada, so i don't really know what you are talking about, but I do know that in any post-apocalyptic scenario it is far easier to work wood than it is to work metal.

[repenttokyo]

Thats why you don't miss ;)

Yea all this is scary ****, and you (pundt) are doing the best thing by preparing NOW.

Back to the gun point
Lets say four guys try entering your house, you shoot one of them with a pistol, he will not get back up, and his friends will run and people will know not to mess with you else.
Now, lets say the same four guys enter your house and you have a bow, you shoot the one guy, he can get back up, and his friends will just charge you.
I believe that on the theory of bows/xbows vs guns guns wins all out for defense.
If you are really serious about self-defense and protecting your family, learn a martial art and become the 301 spartan.

a bow is certainly a bad example for home defense from a pure physical point of view - it is unlikely you will have enough space to properly draw and release inside a building. I was thinking more of a mad-max style situation I guess.

but the bonus is, when your bow breaks, you can make another one, whereas when a gun breaks....

this is assuming collapse of civilization and all that.



personally, if i went into someone's house, and my friend got shot with an arrow, i would be like "WTF!"

[healtoeit]

but I do know that in any post-apocalyptic scenario it is far easier to work wood than it is to work metal.
In a post apocalyptic scenario I doubt any of us will be here

[ryan roopnarine]

auto loading bullets=bullets that can chamber another bullet after one has been fired....eg. handgun you could probably make crappy gunpowder for this with nominal organic I/II and chem I/II experience.

black powder bullet...lump of lead that you have to load powder behind. war of 1812, american revolutionary war. typically you'd think of a musket. if you've taken college gen chem I and II you can make lead blobs and an infinite amount of gunpowder for this.


if you make one of http://www.atmsite.org/contrib/Sapp/foundry/foundry.html

these, you can make all of the little metal items you want out of materials laying around the post apocalyptic landscape, including your bullets.

[attack eagle]

I think some aussies are still recovering from watching mad max.

My suggestion? Buy pigs and ask Auntie to set up your methane center.

[attack eagle]

well, we don't a cult of the firearm in canada, so i don't really know what you are talking about, but I do know that in any post-apocalyptic scenario it is far easier to work wood than it is to work metal.

Arrows worth a damn are not made of wood. wood arrows are one time use only and not very accurate (and certainly not to be used on modern compound bows at 75-90lbs) compared to the aluminum/carbonfiber arrows I shoot.
I would never use a wood arrow, the risk of it splintering on compression and going right thru your arm is far to great.

[repenttokyo]

auto loading bullets=bullets that can chamber another bullet after one has been fired....eg. handgun you could probably make crappy gunpowder for this with nominal organic I/II and chem I/II experience.

black powder bullet...lump of lead that you have to load powder behind. war of 1812, american revolutionary war. typically you'd think of a musket. if you've taken college gen chem I and II you can make lead blobs and an infinite amount of gunpowder for this.


if you make one of http://www.atmsite.org/contrib/Sapp/foundry/foundry.html

these, you can make all of the little metal items you want out of materials laying around the post apocalyptic landscape, including your bullets.

have you been to canada? post apocalypse, all that will be lying around the landscape are bits of wood and beaver tail.

[repenttokyo]

Arrows worth a damn are not made of wood. wood arrows are one time use only and not very accurate (and certainly not to be used on modern compound bows at 75-90lbs) compared to the aluminum/carbonfiber arrows I shoot.
I would never use a wood arrow, the risk of it splintering on compression and going right thru your arm is far to great.

after the bombs have dropped, you can't be picky. wooden arrows worked well enough for hundreds of years, i figure i'll take a few with me with them before i am overwhelmed by the masses coming to steal my last roll of toilet paper.

[SnakeyesTx]

In all honesty, this boils down to finding an alternative to ease the worlds reliance on a non-renewable resource.

The richest person on earth will simply be the person who finds a cheaper and faster way to create hydrogen. BMW and Honda already have Hydrogen cars, but due to the astronomical costs of creating usable hydrogen in large amounts and containing and distributing it safely, only a small handful of suburbs in California have it. Oil companies won't lift a finger (with maybe the exception of BP) to really bring about the end of their cash cow.

It's going to take just one person to bring down Opec and the world's oil dependence... that'll also be the day we start charging the middle east 200 dollars a gallon for milk and 6 million dollars for a new car :D

[SnakeyesTx]

You're kind of missing the point with that line... what I mean is that the demand rises and falls during different seasons of the year, but all in all the demand levels are about the same from year to year. The basic oil demand of say, De Moines, Iowa is more than likely the same this summer as it was last summer. Sure there's maybe a 1 to 2% increase from last year since a few more people bought cars, but that's a LOT less than the obvious increase in prices using "demand increased" as the excuse for price gouging the people.

[repenttokyo]

In all honesty, this boils down to finding an alternative to ease the worlds reliance on a non-renewable resource.

The richest person on earth will simply be the person who finds a cheaper and faster way to create hydrogen. BMW and Honda already have Hydrogen cars, but due to the astronomical costs of creating usable hydrogen in large amounts and containing and distributing it safely, only a small handful of suburbs in California have it. Oil companies won't lift a finger (with maybe the exception of BP) to really bring about the end of their cash cow.

It's going to take just one person to bring down Opec and the world's oil dependence... that'll also be the day we start charging the middle east 200 dollars a gallon for milk and 6 million dollars for a new car :D


hehe too bad the majority of th world is lactose intolerant.

but you are right - it's usually just one person who has the breakthrough.

[e34.535i.sport]

"Who can contemplate gas prices reaching $10.00 a gallon in the U.S. within 3 years? I'm sure not many want to consider that".

I don't know what your crying about - petrol costs more than that for us NOW and I'm not having a problem running the 535...

[dennyg]

I am old enough to be around when the gas shortage of 1973/4 was created by opec. Snake eyes is right that inflation happens when our dollar is weak. But one thing this time is different. All the stuff we bought from china has made them rich enough to want to drive cars instead of bikes. Now we have created an appetite for one billion people to try and live as we do. That will not be a good thing for supply. USA consumes one half of worlds energy now. One good thing that capitalism does is create new technologies to make things more efficient. I am not ready to give up my bimmers but I am sure we will not be using them for daily drivers in a few years. Get ready for the plug in hybrid. Our e34s will be driven like model Ts are now.

[Jon K]

Theres a way to fix the cost of oil, but no one likes it.

I don't foresee people "entering the houses of others" lol. This is funny though keep going. It'll make for some cool dreams tonight.

[attack eagle]

kill the saudi royals and take iraq and saudiaarabia?

maybe a nice high altitude nuke burst to kill em all off without damaging the infrastructure?

[pundit]

kill the saudi royals and take iraq and saudiaarabia?

maybe a nice high altitude nuke burst to kill em all off without damaging the infrastructure?
Don't worry, if the Saudi Royals lose control or become to 'un-sympathetic' to the U.S. you will be in there before you can say 'fill-my-suv-with-gas'

[attack eagle]

Don't worry, if the Saudi Royals lose control or become to 'un-sympathetic' to the U.S. you will be in there before you can say 'fill-my-suv-with-gas'
me?
hah... the US military doesn't WANT me in their ranks.
I'm too old to enter anything but the two cannon fodder services...

I think we should send you... as a pundit you are quite the expert in debating these topics.

UNless you meant US... hell we don't need their oil, we just need to take over canada.

[pundit]

me?...

UNless you meant US... hell we don't need their oil, we just need to take over canada.
I meant the U.S.
As for me going in there with my Crocodile Dundee "That's not a knife... THIS is a knife!" well I'm afraid I'm rather busy for the forseeable future as I have to change the paper in the cutlery drawer and fit new batteries in the musical toilet roll holder. ;)

[pundit]

"Who can contemplate gas prices reaching $10.00 a gallon in the U.S. within 3 years? I'm sure not many want to consider that".

I don't know what your crying about - petrol costs more than that for us NOW and I'm not having a problem running the 535...

I know the UK and rest of Europe pay high fuel prices.
The U.S. is paying less than half of what you pay... I wonder how they'll cope with paying Euro prices in the near future?

I imagine the streets will soon be full of abandoned SUV's.

[Ferret]

Get ready for the plug in hybrid.

I was wondering when that word would pop up.

Diesels and/or Diesel hybrids = win
Gas hybrids = not as efficient as a normal diesel engine

Combine the fact that you can run diesels on off the shelf 34cent/litre supermarket veggie/sunflower oil and I know where my money's at...

(And yes I know veggie oil is rising in price, but 0.17GBP / litre is still massively better than 1.30GBP / litre)

Yes that's right guys, in the UK diesel is currently running at ~$11.81 per Imperial gallon, petrol isnt far behind at about ~10.91USD / imp gallon. 60% of that is tax.

Ultimately, our economy is now in a black hole and there's a crash coming big time ( go go Gordon Brown for f*cking over our economy ) - we cannot get out of it - the markers are here plain to see. The first marker of an economy crash is when all the IT et al contractors get fired - well guess what happened not so long ago?

Whether the rest of the world follows or not will be interesting to see - but I'll tell you this - the last time the world economy went into free fall - opec shot itself in the foot. If we have an economy crash, the price of oil should collapse - but will the far eastern economies crash with us, or will they thrive on the sudden cheap supplies of oil?

We have to remember here while this whole situation may seem 'unfair' - it's a natural process - what did we think was going to happen by pumping cash into the cheap chinese labour markets? The result is that their wages rocket and suddenly we have nowhere cheap to make our cheap products - there's a classic example of this which is call centres!

Anyone notice that indian call centres are actually quite rare now? They learned their lesson with that one - they were cheap at the beginning but then the wages rose exponentially and suddenly they were paying the remote staff the same wages you'd pay people at home, plus the infrastructure costs of locating all that hardware out there!

OPEC are a bunch of greedy b*stards, but they've got us over a barrell (no pun intended) this is a cyclic process gents, and it's here to stay. Oil prices will stabilise when one of two things happen: we find an alternative or the rest of the world finishes developing.

[pgrindstaff]

Lack of oil would not be a problem if the all-knowing (rather dumbass) politicians would allow drilling in North/South Dakota and Montana. According to a few sources that I have found and heard about, there is 175 - 500 billion extractable barrels of oil right here in the US. In fact, this oil deposit has been known about since the late '60s, early '70s but it was not cost effective to extract it due to the relative newness and high cost of horizontal drilling. At a rate of about 14 million barrels used per year in the US, drilling oil right here in America would offset our dependance on foreign oil and drive prices down. While research does need to continue for finding a viable alternative to oil based fuels, extracting the oil we have right now will buy us time and ease the pain at the pump. Why don't politicians realize this?

[dennyg]

There is a volvo prototype that has electric motors on each wheel. The motor in the car is for charging batteries only. No drive shaft diff. or axles.

I agree that diesels are more efficient but fuel is more expensive and you add a couple grand to the cost of the car. Go figure another dis-incentive to buy more efficient car.

[Barney Paull-Edwards]

Not quite sure what guns have to do with economics?? Surely the reality is that we in the "west" have been caught up by the 3rd world who want E34`s etc and can now afford them. As a result the oil consmption of 3rd world has shot up causing hedge fund speculation....Oil consumption has not shot up as fast as prices but speculators are making a fortune and we are paying the price of a free-market economy.....???

[leicesterboy15]

Anyone notice that indian call centres are actually quite rare now? They learned their lesson with that one - they were cheap at the beginning but then the wages rose exponentially and suddenly they were paying the remote staff the same wages you'd pay people at home, plus the infrastructure costs of locating all that hardware out there!



we opened a call centre in India not too long ago and its been a runaway success in terms of cost saving. When we tried to expand it we couldn't find any suitable office space in Bangalore so we started exploring other options, we found that other countries had taken the mantle and we have just gone live with a second call centre in the Philippines because it was soo much cheaper.

Some Indian consultancy firms outsource to South America because its cheaper than doing it on-shore.

That is just progress my friends, we were all third world at one point.

Love this thread tho and the 2 topics it has spawned, its providing much entertainment :)

[SnakeyesTx]

"The only role of government should be to build park benches and nothing else." -Jeremy Clarkson :D

"Gordon Brown and Ladyman should be dragged out into the street and set on fire." -(also from Clarkson!)

[Ferret]

When we tried to expand it we couldn't find any suitable office space in Bangalore so we started exploring other options, we found that other countries had taken the mantle and we have just gone live with a second call centre in the Philippines because it was soo much cheaper.

Free market economies in action!

Look at poland for example - poland joins EU, large chunk of Poles move to England - so much so that suddenly skilled people are few and far between...

Wages in Poland skyrocket, the Poles all start moving home again because the wages are good suddenly. Polish economy is temporarily in the toilet as they've suffered from hyper-inflation, but overall they're suddenly level pegging with the countries around them - which can only be good.

I'm personally not saying there's anything wrong with this - it's actually a good thing balancing the worlds wealth out. It just amuses me the way that companies bounce from one country to the next finding the cheapest labour markets.

We're really stuffed when we run out of cheap places to make our products... as in world economic crash as suddenly everyone has to pay more for their stuff with no way of balancing it out.

[e34.535i.sport]

Only a few weeks ago I had 50+ litres of petrol sitting in buckets in my front garden asking to be taken but no-one had the balls... If this is happening in Liverpool I'm not worried at all.

[e34.535i.sport]

I'm geting ready to purchase a 1200 GS. Hope to see 40-45 mpg which will be more than double that of the e34.

http://www.staintune.com.au/exhausts/bmw/images/BMW%20R1200%20GS.jpg

but Mitch081200GS just doesn't have the same ring to it... :D

[e34.535i.sport]

The 535i isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

That's good to know! :D

Is that 226k MILES you have on the clock? what was on the clock when you bought it?

[Mitch90535im]

I'm geting ready to purchase a 1200 GS. Hope to see 40-45 mpg which will be more than double that of the e34.

http://www.staintune.com.au/exhausts/bmw/images/BMW%20R1200%20GS.jpg

[whiskychaser]

There is a simple solution to the price of fuel thats becoming increasingly popular - steal it! Some handy hints for the would-be thief:
1. Locking caps on tanks are a joke. Put a hole in the tank and drain it. Price of fuel is cheaper than a new tank. Next time they wont lock it
2. Static tanks have to be near the road so the trucks can deliver fuel. No need to stumble round in the dark when you got street lighting for free. Country bumpkins dont even locks their tanks
3. Red diesel works fine. Yeah farmers have shotguns but will they use them after that guy was put away for shooting a burglar?
4. Services are a good spot for nicking truck diesel. But dont tread on the toes of the crews cutting the tilt covers to get at the load- could be nasty

[pundit]

Diplomatic battles begin over Arctic (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/05/27/eaarctic127.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox)

[pundit]

... I don't foresee people "entering the houses of others" lol. This is funny though keep going. It'll make for some cool dreams tonight.
Farmers warned after diesel thefts (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/30/2261024.htm) ... sweet dreams! ;)

[repenttokyo]

There is a simple solution to the price of fuel thats becoming increasingly popular - steal it! Some handy hints for the would-be thief:

2. Static tanks have to be near the road so the trucks can deliver fuel. No need to stumble round in the dark when you got street lighting for free. Country bumpkins dont even locks their tanks
3. Red diesel works fine. Yeah farmers have shotguns but will they use them after that guy was put away for shooting a burglar?


stealing something under the illumination of streetlights right near the road is a good way to get caught...and the different colored diesels run fine unless you get pulled over as a trucker and they catch you with it in your tank;)

[whiskychaser]

stealing something under the illumination of streetlights right near the road is a good way to get caught...and the different colored diesels run fine unless you get pulled over as a trucker and they catch you with it in your tank;)
True and true. But its like outside lights controlled by a infrared beams-do they deter burglars or help them see to break in? The only people checking diesel colour are HM Customs. In just short of 40 years driving (ok I had a motorbike licence) I've only seen a check once. And you can get the dye out believe it or not. If you can brew moonshine at home maybe we should all be brewing methanol and stuff the oil companies and governments? I'm thinking global solutions:)

[Mitch90535im]

The 535i isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[RockJock]

A sharp guy with a South African accent….
Paul Van Eeden tells the bumbling idiots on CNBC how it is….hahaha!

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=iwAHnpIR8is

Got Gold?

[BigKriss]

there will always be some cheap countries..note zimbabwe




We're really stuffed when we run out of cheap places to make our products... as in world economic crash as suddenly everyone has to pay more for their stuff with no way of balancing it out.

[Scott C]

Of course massive Government debt means less essential (humanitarian) services for those who need it now... and even more who will need help when things get worse.

And the homepage headlines make for disconcerting reading... http://energybulletin.net/


I really do hate to sound like an ignorant American, but I don't believe that the US system will ever be as corrupt as Russia was (and still is?). I believe that Americans have historically pulled together when things get tough, and will do so in the future when it becomes required, that is what has made this a great country. The big difference of America is the fundamental belief that we enable individuals to reach their potential. Yes, our schools don't necessarily generate the best output, but a lot of that is the lack of motivation by the kids and disillusioned teachers (how can they remain idealistic with kids that don't care?)

Rising gas prices will cause some harm but it will also cause some good. Look at how the hybrids are finally taking off! This is the push that has been needed for years, but being a capitalistic society, we were never financially encouraged to do so. I also suspect that the untapped reserves of Alaska will now finally get tapped to help offset the market.

Don't get me wrong, I think we consume way to much, and the article does bring some good points. But I think it is a little too much gloom and doom.

Scott

[Mitch90535im]

That's good to know! :D

Is that 226k MILES you have on the clock? what was on the clock when you bought it?

Yes, I'm at about 228K miles now. It had 181,000 miles on it when I bought it the week of 9/11/2001.

[Morgenster]

Oil shale (good for billions of gallons) recovery was contemplated in the 70s crisis but dismissed because it would give petrol at a little over 3 dollers per gallon. Nowadays research into recovering oil from these deposits is advancing rapidly and it can already be done at a competitive price. It'll ruin the environment though.
Electrical storage systems like Lithium batteries, supercapacitors etc. are at a competitive level for replacing your petrol tank in an electric or PHEV.
Solar photovoltaics are advancing rapidly and production and installation costs are going to halve in three years.
Nuclear energy is onto fourth generation design reactors and can be nearly completely harmless considering that a new waste treatment center in Israel is now capable of transforming nuclear waste and household waste into inert bricks and energy.
PHEVs and electric cars are becoming a reality
Decentralised power production is becoming affordable (like with solar panels at home).

I say I hope oil continues to be this pricy because it stimulates the development of solutions that will enable any country or region to become less dependent on others for their basic needs. This in turn will make it far less necessary to wage war for these things. Not that it'll stop war though.