e39 M5... what do you think?

[Qube]

http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/details.aspx?vlotid=1302885&adid=7156889

Looks like good condition. Time to make an offer? What do you guys think?

Where to start the offer? :)

And this? http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/details.aspx?vlotid=5818&adid=7159560

A little more but the interior scheme is nice...

[e34.535i.sport]

That second one looks sweet in black... I'm coming round to the subtle looks of the e39 these days :)

[Paul in NZ]

http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/details.aspx?vlotid=1302885&adid=7156889

Looks like good condition. Time to make an offer? What do you guys think?

Where to start the offer? :)

And this? http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/details.aspx?vlotid=5818&adid=7159560

A little more but the interior scheme is nice...

its hard to know about these cars.If you go to an m5 board the main complaints seem to be mafs,cps,vanos , clutch wear , oil consumption, and the inability of most dealers to diagnose problems when they occur.Its hard to get a true feeling of how often this actually happens but of course most post on the forums only occur when there is a problem.Parts arent cheap either.In balance if you read most e 34 forums they to seem to be fullkof posts about this broke etc..in reality ???

[RockJock]

Man, I was going to ask you if you won the lottery or something, but now I see the prices, are they ever cheap. Pretty soon they'll be cheaper than E34 M5's. I like the dark one!

[whiskychaser]

That second one looks sweet in black... I'm coming round to the subtle looks of the e39 these days :)

x1 except for the colour. Silver is good - you dont need to wash it so often. Think the BM auctions in MCR are on Fridays. Do we go M5 or M3 though???

[e34.535i.sport]

x1 except for the colour. Silver is good - you dont need to wash it so often. Think the BM auctions in MCR are on Fridays. Do we go M5 or M3 though???

I'll give you that - but for the 5 minutes it is clean the black would look damn fine! And it's m5 every time - it's the dream! :D

[winfred]

i can't speak for m5s but later 540s can work up a hell of a bill at a shop, worked on one a while a 01 540 that looked pretty nice (as in not a run down turd) that he picked up at auction for a little over 7k, over the next two months we took almost another 7k of his money on fairly normal late e39 repairs, bastard snowballed and everything that usually goes wrong did so at the same time, and that wasn't everything as there was still the $1000 water cooled alternator job that was due to fail at any time and in a year or two maybe 500 parts and labor worth of rear suspension due, plus that much or more front suspension work a couple years down the road but he ditched it before that

i can't imagine a m5 is any cheaper, one thing i have read a good bit of places is bmw says a quart of oil per 1k miles is normal and that seems to be common, damn at that rate ya just change the filter 3-4 times a year and are good ta go almost :D

[repenttokyo]

They are cheap because they are off of COPO and people are scared of these cars.

I love them, but I fully realise that repairs can be extremely expensive. Or nothing might break at all. You are rolling the dice, essentially. Ask yourself what your maintenance budget is - can you afford to pay a dealer 7k to repair the engine if you need to? If not, don;t buy the car. If so, then go for it! It's an amazing machine.

[Qube]

The first one is Blue Water. The second is Dark Blue (Monaco?).

I'm leaning toward the second. Going to swing by and check out the latter... first. Blue Water seems 'gay' (excuse me) in such a big car...

[Paul in NZ]

They are cheap because they are off of COPO and people are scared of these cars.

I love them, but I fully realise that repairs can be extremely expensive. Or nothing might break at all. You are rolling the dice, essentially. Ask yourself what your maintenance budget is - can you afford to pay a dealer 7k to repair the engine if you need to? If not, don;t buy the car. If so, then go for it! It's an amazing machine.

more than that.....

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

E39 M5s are nice but everybody that I know who has one, starts getting worried as the car passes 50K...appearently that's when it turns into a pumpkin or something.

E34 M5 is more of a driver's car, you are still fully connected to the car.

the E39 has a drive by wire throttle system that leaves some drivers feeling isolated.

[Qube]

Hey what's "COPO"

Crapped on <by> previous owner?

I just realized I posted the wrong one...

Should be THIS one: http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/details.aspx?vlotid=5818&adid=7126077

[repenttokyo]

Hey what's "COPO"

Crapped on <by> previous owner?

I just realized I posted the wrong one...

[

uh, COPO, CPO, it's BMW's certified pre-owned vehicle program and warranty, dude.

[Qube]

uh, COPO, CPO, it's BMW's certified pre-owned vehicle program and warranty, dude.

Yeah, CPO :) I thought COPO was some funky acronym.

[repenttokyo]

Yeah, CPO :) I thought COPO was some funky acronym.

some people call it copo.

[Paul in NZ]

E39 M5s are nice but everybody that I know who has one, starts getting worried as the car passes 50K...appearently that's when it turns into a pumpkin or something.

E34 M5 is more of a driver's car, you are still fully connected to the car.

the E39 has a drive by wire throttle system that leaves some drivers feeling isolated.

std answer..yes but they are 400 hp!They arent called BEASTS for nothing

[RockJock]

i can't speak for m5s but later 540s can work up a hell of a bill at a shop, worked on one a while a 01 540 that looked pretty nice (as in not a run down turd) that he picked up at auction for a little over 7k, over the next two months we took almost another 7k of his money on fairly normal late e39 repairs, bastard snowballed and everything that usually goes wrong did so at the same time, and that wasn't everything as there was still the $1000 water cooled alternator job that was due to fail at any time and in a year or two maybe 500 parts and labor worth of rear suspension due, plus that much or more front suspension work a couple years down the road but he ditched it before that

i can't imagine a m5 is any cheaper, one thing i have read a good bit of places is bmw says a quart of oil per 1k miles is normal and that seems to be common, damn at that rate ya just change the filter 3-4 times a year and are good ta go almost :D

Yah..OUCH!! That's insane. I've heard that E39 M5 maintenance costs make those for an E34 M5 look like chicken feed. I'm guessing a guy's gotta have plenty of disposable income to keep the E39 M5 on the road...

[RockJock]

E39 M5s are nice but everybody that I know who has one, starts getting worried as the car passes 50K...appearently that's when it turns into a pumpkin or something.

E34 M5 is more of a driver's car, you are still fully connected to the car.

the E39 has a drive by wire throttle system that leaves some drivers feeling isolated.

With regards the E34 M5 being a driver's car, I'm with you; I think I'd rather spend the coin on a mint or ultra clean E34 M5 than a E39 M5..

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

std answer..yes but they are 400 hp!They arent called BEASTS for nothing

Yeah, standard answer...cause that's what ///M owners talk about when we stand around drink beer, scratch our balls and compare cars...

e28 guys like the raw unrefined feel (but the rest of us think the car is ugly)

e34 guys like the polished refined touches, but yet with the feel of a live "car"

e39 guys like the smooth power, but bitch about the drive by wire and the parabolic repair costs.

e60....V10 500 hp..Zero MPG...F'n I drive and the SMG auto slush a ma jig...But now offering a stick..

Buy an ///M and join the party

[Paul in NZ]

Yeah, standard answer...cause that's what ///M owners talk about when we stand around drink beer, scratch our balls and compare cars...

e28 guys like the raw unrefined feel (but the rest of us think the car is ugly)

e34 guys like the polished refined touches, but yet with the feel of a live "car"

e39 guys like the smooth power, but bitch about the drive by wire and the parabolic repair costs.

e60....V10 500 hp..Zero MPG...F'n I drive and the SMG auto slush a ma jig...But now offering a stick..

Buy an ///M and join the party

seriously considering it mate.....

[Paul in NZ]

Hey what's "COPO"

Crapped on <by> previous owner?

I just realized I posted the wrong one...

Should be THIS one: http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/details.aspx?vlotid=5818&adid=7126077

from the gnashing of teeth on m5board.com you may be able to do better than that qube,esp if you get a US car...

[Derek A.]

Yeah, CPO :) I thought COPO was some funky acronym.

COPO is a GM Acronym for Central Office Production Order. It was the way to get non standard production elements built. Like huge engines in little cars :)

What is the highest mileage e39 M5 that has been around the board - are these cars making 150,000k without out an engine, trans or diff rebuild ?

[repenttokyo]

COPO is a GM Acronym for Central Office Production Order. It was the way to get non standard production elements built. Like huge engines in little cars :)

What is the highest mileage e39 M5 that has been around the board - are these cars making 150,000k without out an engine, trans or diff rebuild ?


I am aware that it was also a program from GM ;)

[Paul in NZ]

COPO is a GM Acronym for Central Office Production Order. It was the way to get non standard production elements built. Like huge engines in little cars :)

What is the highest mileage e39 M5 that has been around the board - are these cars making 150,000k without out an engine, trans or diff rebuild ?

i think they are basically quite durable,check m5board.com,they have a "mileage" thread and there were some quite high mileage examples

[BMW4LIFE]

not trying to steal the thread or anything but what do you guys know about the E46 M3?

reliability?

Ride?

Power?

anything else?

thanks!

[Sam-Son]

^its fast its fun and Itll get walked by an E34 M5

[MarkD]

not trying to steal the thread or anything but what do you guys know about the E46 M3?

reliability?

Ride?

Power?

anything else?

thanks!


They are great cars, aned you can get them for 25K or so now in the USA.

I've developed performance software for it that quite a few people in Toronto have been running since 2004, in case you need a few more ponies.

[MarkD]

http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/details.aspx?vlotid=1302885&adid=7156889

Looks like good condition. Time to make an offer? What do you guys think?

Where to start the offer? :)

And this? http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/details.aspx?vlotid=5818&adid=7159560

A little more but the interior scheme is nice...

Keep in mind that cars from those sort of dealers regularly have the odo "adjusted" so ask for the service records. I know of a 2000 or 2001 that was for sale 3 weeks back for around 25K, with low km's and brand new wheels and tires. Call Harry's Car Shop on Queen St. if you want to check if it's still available. And when you want to unleash 25 to 30 more ponies, you already know where to take it. (or 55hp more with a different exhaust and software)

[repenttokyo]

They are great cars, aned you can get them for 25K or so now in the USA.

I've developed performance software for it that quite a few people in Toronto have been running since 2004, in case you need a few more ponies.


great cars, yes, but the thread is about the maintenance issues.

[BMW4LIFE]

^its fast its fun and Itll get walked by an E34 M5

you know ill give you that but i hear that the e34 engine needs valve adjustments like every 10k or so.....

the M3 is basically maintenance free.....or so i hear...


thats why i came to you guys... ;)

[repenttokyo]

you know ill give you that but i hear that the e34 engine needs valve adjustments like every 10k or so.....

the M3 is basically maintenance free.....or so i hear...


thats why i came to you guys... ;)

the M3 isn't really maintenance free - some of the production run had serious engine issues, a friend of mine had the engine replaced in his convertible after it started knocking so bad he couldn't even drive the car.

i'll gladly pay for valve adjustments every 10 miles to be able to outperform an e46 M3 in comfort, style and class - the M3 is just so heavy compared to how it used to be.

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

you know ill give you that but i hear that the e34 engine needs valve adjustments like every 10k or so.....

the M3 is basically maintenance free.....or so i hear...


thats why i came to you guys... ;)


Yeah, the S38 needs the valve shims measured and replaced as needed every 10k miles.

But I don't think any M car is maintenance free for very long, they all have their requirements.

[Rick L]

Have your driven both cars? Tell you what, E39 M5 is so much superior to E34 M5. I driven both and I felt E39 M5 to be more precise in steering feel and the power is no comparison between the two. If it wasn't for the convertible that I wanted, I would have purchased E39 M5. And the improvement doesn't end there as the interior was so much nicer with leather wrapped dash and door panel and the quietness of the car when the windows were closed (well except when you hit the pas pedal). :p I know the first year (2000 model) had few issues but searching through E39 M5 forum eased my mind of reliability. And wired throttle is great feature as it can be programmed (adapt to individual driver) and of course you have the sport mode that tunes the throttle response. I've been looking into E39 M5 again as the price has come down recently. I have to say that E39 M5 is probably the best BMW ever made next to E30 M3. Amazing machine even though 400 H.P. is no big deal anymore.


E39 M5s are nice but everybody that I know who has one, starts getting worried as the car passes 50K...appearently that's when it turns into a pumpkin or something.

E34 M5 is more of a driver's car, you are still fully connected to the car.

the E39 has a drive by wire throttle system that leaves some drivers feeling isolated.

[Rick L]

Uh..? 0-60 in 4.8 compare to? And the handling? I think it's other way around... My VERT is heavier but it's still a blast to drive!


^its fast its fun and Itll get walked by an E34 M5

[Rick L]

My E46 M3 is very durable! I drive it hard sometimes or spirited every time. :D Many take them to track and only thing people change is the brakes. You can push it all day long and the engine, trans, and clutch is very strong! Power is very respectable by today standards but there are many cars that will walk my car. Ride is very comfortable. It's much smoother than I thought considering the tight suspension. I think my E34 525i with Koni + Eibach feels little bit more harsher than my E46 M3 but no comparison to which one out handles when the road becomes twisty. I purchased 4 year bumper to bumper thinking that I might break something but it has been very reliable even with my forceful driving (can't help it when your behind the M3)... ;) First 3 year models E46 M3 had rod bearing issue which was covered by factory recall. Other than that, you shouldn't worry about it. You still need to maintain it including valve adjustment and so on.


not trying to steal the thread or anything but what do you guys know about the E46 M3?

reliability?

Ride?

Power?

anything else?

thanks!

[repenttokyo]

Have your driven both cars? Tell you what, E39 M5 is so much superior to E34 M5. I driven both and I felt E39 M5 to be more precise in steering feel and the power is no comparison between the two. If it wasn't for the convertible that I wanted, I would have purchased E39 M5. And the improvement doesn't end there as the interior was so much nicer with leather wrapped dash and door panel and the quietness of the car when the windows were closed (well except when you hit the pas pedal). :p I know the first year (2000 model) had few issues but searching through E39 M5 forum eased my mind of reliability. And wired throttle is great feature as it can be programmed (adapt to individual driver) and of course you have the sport mode that tunes the throttle response. I've been looking into E39 M5 again as the price has come down recently. I have to say that E39 M5 is probably the best BMW ever made next to E30 M3. Amazing machine even though 400 H.P. is no big deal anymore.

i completely disagree re: the interiors. wired throttle is only a great feature if you don't mind the disconnect between the gas pedal and the throttle - there is a lag, and it is perceptible under hard driving.

60 horsepower is not a huge difference - especially when the e34 weighs over 120 lbs less than the e39...

they are different cars, and different people prefer different things. I am sure there are people who say the current M5 is great version ever made - even though you would never catch me inside of one.

I love both cars, but the maintenance costs of the e39 are undeniably higher than the e34.

[Rick L]

Everyone to their opinion and their preferences. My E46 M3 has wired throttle and I feel no lag at all. Like I said, THIS IS PROGRAMMABLE. If you feel that it response is slow, all you have to do is to reset the throttle and it only take few seconds to do (no need to bring it to the dealer). Also, there is the sport mode if you want aggressive throttle response. And for E39 M5, you might think 60 H.P. is not much of a difference but if you drive both cars; you will feel the difference between the two. Everyone always look at the horse power but what's more important is the torque! And for E60 M5, very nice but I still can't get over that new body style. Ugly in my opinion... But very, very fast! And also very heavy.


i completely disagree re: the interiors. wired throttle is only a great feature if you don't mind the disconnect between the gas pedal and the throttle - there is a lag, and it is perceptible under hard driving.

60 horsepower is not a huge difference - especially when the e34 weighs over 120 lbs less than the e39...

they are different cars, and different people prefer different things. I am sure there are people who say the current M5 is great version ever made - even though you would never catch me inside of one.

I love both cars, but the maintenance costs of the e39 are undeniably higher than the e34.

[BMW4LIFE]

My E46 M3 is very durable! I drive it hard sometimes or spirited every time. :D Many take them to track and only thing people change is the brakes. You can push it all day long and the engine, trans, and clutch is very strong! Power is very respectable by today standards but there are many cars that will walk my car. Ride is very comfortable. It's much smoother than I thought considering the tight suspension. I think my E34 525i with Koni + Eibach feels little bit more harsher than my E46 M3 but no comparison to which one out handles when the road becomes twisty. I purchased 4 year bumper to bumper thinking that I might break something but it has been very reliable even with my forceful driving (can't help it when your behind the M3)... ;) First 3 year models E46 M3 had rod bearing issue which was covered by factory recall. Other than that, you shouldn't worry about it. You still need to maintain it including valve adjustment and so on.


Yea I heard about that rod issue a while back and it seems thats the only major problem with that car....

If I am not mistaking I believe that the rod issue was all of the 2001 and 2002 till the production date of April.....So basically if you were to buy a 2003 it would not have been a concern (is that correct?)

How often do you have to do the Valve adjustments on those cars (e46)

I want to test drive one but at the same time I have a feeling that I will want one right there and then:p I remember test driving a Camero SS for funzzies and I was pissed at how slow my 525i was hahahaha

oh well.....at least its not american ;)


I would totally love to pick your brain more about the car if you wouldnt mind....let me know and I can shoot you my email

thanks!

[Sam-Son]

Uh..? 0-60 in 4.8 compare to? And the handling? I think it's other way around... My VERT is heavier but it's still a blast to drive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubit14sFQB8

[Rick L]

Right... That's real fair comparison you have there. First, modded E34 M5 versus completely stock E46 M3. Second, two people in M3 and only one in M5. Third, M5 driver had the first jump. Forth, race like this is lost if you're not in right gear. I have driven E34 M5 and I know what it can do. I own E46 M3 and I know what it can do. From the highway speed, it's about even. But at triple digit speed, bulky sharp of E34 slows the car down while E46 M3 with more aerodynamic body hunkers down and blast to 155 m.p.h. (limiter at 155 but might do 165-170). From stop, I'll smoke an E34 M5 (stock versus stock). I know the capabilities between the two cars. I don't want to come across as a jerk but facts are facts... I still love my E34 525i and it has been my everyday well engineered driver. And also many learning curve in which I now feel comfortable in maintaining my own cars.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubit14sFQB8

[Rick L]

Hi BMW4LIFE,

Rod issues was from 2001 to 2003.5 year models. So if you purchase 203.5 or later, that issue was resolved from the factory. It took Motorsport and BMW over an year to even realize this issue with reported problems. BMW believed it was do to hard driving by the owners taking them to the track but came to realize it was do to oil and the rod. Also, these E46 M3 can record data like RPM peak and etc. If you hit 10,000 rpm by mistake by missing a gear, BMW will know. :( Let me know if you have any question(s). Trust me, test drive one and you will have a grin from ear to ear! I was sold after driving one. :D Almost forgot, BMW recommends to do valve adjustment every 30k miles. My cars was done at ~25k miles and again at 36k miles during rod bearing recall program. I have 53k miles now (don't drive in winters), more of a weekend car but tend to put 200 miles everytime I take it out.




Yea I heard about that rod issue a while back and it seems thats the only major problem with that car....

If I am not mistaking I believe that the rod issue was all of the 2001 and 2002 till the production date of April.....So basically if you were to buy a 2003 it would not have been a concern (is that correct?)

How often do you have to do the Valve adjustments on those cars (e46)

I want to test drive one but at the same time I have a feeling that I will want one right there and then:p I remember test driving a Camero SS for funzzies and I was pissed at how slow my 525i was hahahaha

oh well.....at least its not american ;)


I would totally love to pick your brain more about the car if you wouldnt mind....let me know and I can shoot you my email

thanks!

[repenttokyo]

Hi BMW4LIFE,

Rod issues was from 2001 to 2003.5 year models. So if you purchase 203.5 or later, that issue was resolved from the factory. It took Motorsport and BMW over an year to even realize this issue withreported problems. BMW believed it was do to hard driving by the owners taking them to the track but came to realize it was do to oil and the rod. Also, these E46 M3 can record data like RPM peak and etc. If you hit 10,000 rpm by mistake by missing a gear, BMW will know. :( Let me know if you have any question(s). Trust me, test drive one and you will have a grin from ear to ear! I was sold after driving one. :D


yeah - my friend was not happy with how they treated him. They put the car on a flatbed and took it to Toronto from Montreal - a distance of 600 km's - and he was without the car for weeks.

He does love the car, tho.

[BMW4LIFE]

Hi BMW4LIFE,

Rod issues was from 2001 to 2003.5 year models. So if you purchase 203.5 or later, that issue was resolved from the factory. It took Motorsport and BMW over an year to even realize this issue with reported problems. BMW believed it was do to hard driving by the owners taking them to the track but came to realize it was do to oil and the rod. Also, these E46 M3 can record data like RPM peak and etc. If you hit 10,000 rpm by mistake by missing a gear, BMW will know. :( Let me know if you have any question(s). Trust me, test drive one and you will have a grin from ear to ear! I was sold after driving one. :D Almost forgot, BMW recommends to do valve adjustment every 30k miles. My cars was done at ~25k miles and again at 36k miles during rod bearing recall program. I have 53k miles now (don't drive in winters), more of a weekend car but tend to put 200 miles everytime I take it out.


Wow, it sure sounds like you know your stuff:D....well i dont think i am ready to test drive one due to the fact that i dont have the money to buy one right now =(

I really like how they look and from what I hear they are pretty bullet proof as long as you stay away from the SMG tranny....which I wouldnt want one anyways

how would a buyer know if the engine problem has been resolved by the dealer? could of the engine seen other kinds of damage due to the recalled item that will show up later down the line? would it be safer to buy a 2003.5 rather than a recalled 2002?


and finally....if i were to purchase this car...it would totally be my daily driver....how would it hold up?


man i can go on for days.........so ill leave it at that fro now.... hehe =)

[Rick L]

I haven't heard many failures of SMG gearbox. Most people purchase M3 with SMG and realize that don't like it. It might be faster around the track but I'll get bored with it; I still like the feel of the sportiness of the clutch. :) Also, SMG on E46 M3 isn't all that smooth. Depending on the setting and the setting of the throttle, car might hesitate or take off aggressively or sometime it jerks. I heard 2008 model M3 SMG has vastly improved over the E46 M3 SMG. I feel 6 speed manual does feel bit clunky compare to manual on E46 330i but the abuse it can take, I'll deal with it.

You can call any BMW dealer and give them your VIN number and they can tell you if it was done or not. But most likely all E46 M3 (2001-2003) had it done and would be surprised to see any that's not. I haven't heard of any other damage related to rod bearing issues. Well, other then the slight oil leak issue after the service. If that's the case, I think you can bring the car back and have the leak fixed under the recall. I think I have slight leak on my car but absolutely no oil drops on ground. Just little bit under the under carriage splash guard. I'll bring it in to the dealer and have that looked at on my car but very little leak (maybe loose 1/2 of quart every 5,000 miles). But purchasing 2003.5 or later is probably best if you can afford the higher cost of the later year M3. But I have also heard of later models having vanos issues.

One thing great about E46 M3 is that it can be great daily driver as well as weekend driver or a track car! Engine isn't as smooth or feel refine as standard BMW engine like 3 liter I6 or even a V8 but they don't go redlining up to 8500 rpm either. E46 M3 is bit high strung but that's the FUN about it! Anyway, it's very comfortable for long drives and very solid.


Wow, it sure sounds like you know your stuff:D....well i dont think i am ready to test drive one due to the fact that i dont have the money to buy one right now =(

I really like how they look and from what I hear they are pretty bullet proof as long as you stay away from the SMG tranny....which I wouldnt want one anyways

how would a buyer know if the engine problem has been resolved by the dealer? could of the engine seen other kinds of damage due to the recalled item that will show up later down the line? would it be safer to buy a 2003.5 rather than a recalled 2002?


and finally....if i were to purchase this car...it would totally be my daily driver....how would it hold up?


man i can go on for days.........so ill leave it at that fro now.... hehe =)