M50 oil sump leak?

[anonymous1]

Hi,

Just wondering if it is common for the oil sump gasket to need changing? I appear to have a minor leak... although I'm finding that it is covering the gearbox in oil also. (It's not the gearbox leaking as it's brown instead of red)

I'm going to check the bolts are all tight, as I've noticed this was a common issue on the M30.

If I do need to change it, is it easy or is it like the M30 and a pain in the rear? From last time I was under, looks like it'd get caught on a few things unless I lift the engine?! :(

On another note, it also never seems to show as full on the dipstick... yet the light doesn't come on for oil pressure. I checked it the other day and it was below the min line, apart from 2 thin lines up each side of the dipstick that reached the max. I've topped it up by half a litre for now, but this has happened in the past (stupid oil leak) and even when I put what should be enough to fill it, still seems to show low. Now I'm worried the dipstick isn't showing correctly and don't want to overfill.

Thanks

[Jon K]

Its not TOOOOO bad. Yes its a common place for leaks to start. Note that the torque on the bolts is not very much. They're only M10s. It can be replaced relatively easily ... at least I think so, but I may have a skewed opinion on the word "easy".

As for the oil light, the oil pressure light will not come on based on oil level. Only the oil level light will come on (its actually a message not a light) if the oil is low enough. Your dipstick is showing correctly if the dipstick is fully in the tube and the tube is fully in the oil pan.

[bad_manners_god]

I've done that oil pan gasket twice now. First time when it was actually leaking, the second when I blew the pan.

To give you a quick idea:

Drop the Front subframe,remove belts, remove the power steering pump.

Get a flex ratchet, with a 18" extension, and a 10mm flex socket...as well as a 10mm long socket. And you need some torx sockets

It's not so bad if you have a lift and tools, but if your doing it in your drive way it can be difficult.

[whiskychaser]

IIRC your motor is set that far back the injector rail is tucked under the bulkhead. So I dont know if you have room to just lift the engine. I imagine the trick is to support the engine with a hoist while you drop the subframe to give you clearance. Not something I would want to do on the street:D
Your oil may be so clean its difficult to see on the dipstick. You could try turning it a bit? I dont have any leads running off the dipstick so I dont think I have a low oil level sender. Be interested to know where it lives if I do have one though:)

[Jon K]

You absolutely 100% do not have to drop the subframe OR lift the engine.

[whiskychaser]

You absolutely 100% do not have to drop the subframe OR lift the engine.

Curious now. Whats the knack then Jon? Put the pistons half way up the bores so the webs dont catch the pan? I'd do a search if the button was working:)

[Jon K]

Curious now. Whats the knack then Jon? Put the pistons half way up the bores so the webs dont catch the pan? I'd do a search if the button was working:)

Nope - its not bad - the lowest point is the oil pump. If you unbolt the pan fully, you can slide it straight out if you cock it about 5 degrees back and forth.

[bad_manners_god]

Nope - its not bad - the lowest point is the oil pump. If you unbolt the pan fully, you can slide it straight out if you cock it about 5 degrees back and forth.

What about the oil pan pickup....isnt that the lowest point that always gets caught?

[Jon K]

What about the oil pan pickup....isnt that the lowest point that always gets caught?

... you take that off in the pan...

[BennyM]

While Jon K could probably do this blindfolded, I consider it to be a fairly challenging job.

The oil pan is pretty long and is bolted in a lot of places (some bolts are rather elusive). If you can get an engine hoist, raising the engine might actually be easier than lowering the subframe. It's just a matter of unbolting the engine mounts. Also, I think I had the wrong sealant when I did mine and so it leaked almost immediately. I was pretty bummed.

[anonymous1]

Hi,

Thanks for the all the info. As you say Whisky, not really got any room at the back of the engine to lift it, unless I remove the rail first... It was good fun trying to get to enough of it to prise out the old reg! :D

I put more oil in yesterday, only took 1.5L and I'm now showing 3/4 on the good ol' dipstick again! :p Think I'll be keeping a closer eye on it from now on to see how quickly I'm losing it. If not too bad, then I might wait on the gasket change. I'm not leaving oil behind me when I park; it just seems to end up all over the transmission and in turn me when I get underneath. :D

I've checked all the bolts that I could see... and they seemed to be very tight, decided not to mess with them too much though at risk of making it worse. At the moment there seems to be a build up of crud around the base of the dipstick... Not sure if this is at all relevant?

Jon - On the method you mention, can you give anymore details? It sounds very straight forward, but from being underneath yesterday, it seems very cramped. Would I have to worry about damaging anything by trying to slide the sump off, without the engine raised and getting the other parts out of the way?

Thanks again, all help is appreciated. :D

[whiskychaser]

You would be lucky to get your fingers between the bottom of my sump and the subframe. Perhaps my engine mounts have gone a little soft:) Mine doesnt need changing but there is a bottle of scotch to anybody who can do it. Name and address supplied:D

[anonymous1]

Hi,

I have recently been on a road trip and thought in the process I would try and see how bad the oil leak really is.

On the way there, the dipstick showed 1/2, but by the time I got there (approx 240 miles) it was showing 1/8. I have based the dipstick as being 1L from min to max, so seem to have lost 375ml. Before leaving I put 500ml in, to take me back to 675ml. Since getting back (approx 265 miles) I now have 1/2 dipstick, so only (used loosely :p) lost 175ml. This seems like quite a strange result to have received and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas?

I am currently considering changing the gasket, although if possible I would like to avoid this course. Anyone have any views on oil additives like this... http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_15 8740_langId_-1_CarSelectorCatalogId__CarSelectorGroupId__varien t__categoryId_77315_crumb_33958-31345-58755_parentcategoryrn_77315# which claims to stop leaks.

To confirm, I only seem to be losing oil when I am actually driving and not when it is sitting. Is it possible it could be something other then the gasket? I couldn't see any obvious point on the sump for where the leak would be coming from, but then I can't really see the whole sump as well as I'd like.

TIA. :D

[whiskychaser]

Hi Daryl. Glad to see it made it there are back in one piece:D Personal opinion only but I dont go much by that additive. What does it do? - make your oil thinker so it doesnt come out of the holes?:( You may not lose oil when its standing. Thats probably cos its not slopping backwards and forwards when its sitting-its not going over the 'join' between the bottom of the sump and the block. Not an ideal solution and maybe others can chip in, but it may be just possible to drop the sump a tiny bit and slip the gasket in without removing it?

[russiankid]

Are you sure the oil isn't coming from the front? My oil filter housing gasket is leaking, the oil goes down the oil pan and then shoots straight back onto the sway bar, subframe, and transmission sumps. It also accumilates on the connection between the transmission and engine.

[e34.535i.sport]

You would be lucky to get your fingers between the bottom of my sump and the subframe. Perhaps my engine mounts have gone a little soft:) Mine doesnt need changing but there is a bottle of scotch to anybody who can do it. Name and address supplied:D

I'll have a bash :D (yellow pages advert coming to mind!!!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zyax-iZBk8

[e34.535i.sport]

On the way there, the dipstick showed 1/2, but by the time I got there (approx 240 miles) it was showing 1/8. I have based the dipstick as being 1L from min to max, so seem to have lost 375ml. Before leaving I put 500ml in, to take me back to 675ml. Since getting back (approx 265 miles) I now have 1/2 dipstick, so only (used loosely :p) lost 175ml. This seems like quite a strange result to have received and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas?


At the risk of being a tosser:

500ml - 375ml would be 125ml... Filling another 500ml would leave you with 625ml... Reducing to 500ml would mean you lost 125ml on return journey (Good news!) which is only 1/3 of what you lost on the way there. Strange as the return journey was longer? :D

[anonymous1]

Hi Daryl. Glad to see it made it there are back in one piece:D Personal opinion only but I dont go much by that additive. What does it do? - make your oil thinker so it doesnt come out of the holes?:( You may not lose oil when its standing. Thats probably cos its not slopping backwards and forwards when its sitting-its not going over the 'join' between the bottom of the sump and the block. Not an ideal solution and maybe others can chip in, but it may be just possible to drop the sump a tiny bit and slip the gasket in without removing it?


Howdy,

I reckon if that's all it does, then the Lucas oil I put in previously would've stopped it... That was like full fat maple syrup!!! :D Didn't put much in, just used it to thicken the oil, but to no avail. Think I'll be looking into replacing the gasket, see what happens and if I can use the slide method you mention I'll be a happy man. :D

The journey was good, car handled it without any hitches (apart from the whole life fluid leaking thing at least). Makes it worth the hours we put in on the cars.

Cheers on the advice.

[anonymous1]

Are you sure the oil isn't coming from the front? My oil filter housing gasket is leaking, the oil goes down the oil pan and then shoots straight back onto the sway bar, subframe, and transmission sumps. It also accumilates on the connection between the transmission and engine.

Hi,

That is possible, at the moment the oil seems to be gathering all over the sump... including a large puddle of gunk at the base of the dipstick guide. It is also going on to the sway bar, cross member and gearbox as you say.

If this is the case, I presume it's a much easier job? I was planning on doing an oil change shortly, so if the parts aren't expensive, then I'll definately give this a look. Am I right in assuming it is #11 on here: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=CB12&mospid=47441&btnr=11_0526&hg=11&fg=30

Appreciated on the advice. :D

[russiankid]

Yes it is number 11. While you are there replace number 9. I have not done the job personally but it is on my list. From what I have observed so far, the belt, idler pulley, and alternator have to be removed. That way, you have lots of room to remove the 3 bolts that hold it and position everything back in. Only issue you may run into it, or issue that I see, is position the new gasket. If it doesn't stay inside the housing, you will need to run a very thin layer or RTV gasket maker so the gasket can stay in position.

If you tackle this before me, let me know how it goes!

[anonymous1]

Yes it is number 11. While you are there replace number 9. I have not done the job personally but it is on my list. From what I have observed so far, the belt, idler pulley, and alternator have to be removed. That way, you have lots of room to remove the 3 bolts that hold it and position everything back in. Only issue you may run into it, or issue that I see, is position the new gasket. If it doesn't stay inside the housing, you will need to run a very thin layer or RTV gasket maker so the gasket can stay in position.

If you tackle this before me, let me know how it goes!

Hi,

Thanks for the quick response. I've ordered the parts from dealer, an entire £10 for both gaskets and new hardware. :p Even if it turns out it's not this, then at least it won't have cost too much. (A couple of threads seem to suggest this is a common issue) According to the realoem link, there is a total of 6 bolts, 3 different types... Will all of these need to be removed or do you know if the housing comes away from just the 3? - The Bentley doesn't seem to have any information on completing this job. (By the way, if anyone needs a Bentley for 3-series let me know and I'll post the link)

Checked with dealer how much the sump gasket is (in case I later need it) and they advised £23, and it's a steel gasket. Presume if it is steel, then overtime the temp changes may just have caused it to warp?

I'm hoping to clean it off under there and see if I can confirm where it is coming from over the weekend. Even if it turns out I need to change the sump gasket, I may as well do this as the same time.

Cheers on all advice. :D

[russiankid]

The pan gasket actually has rubber on it as well from what I know.

[whiskychaser]

The pan gasket actually has rubber on it as well from what I know.
I have not seen an all-steel gasket. Not sure how it would seal. Maybe you have a link?

[gale]

I have not seen an all-steel gasket. Not sure how it would seal. Maybe you have a link?

http://www.autohausaz.com/secure/PartImages/11131437237.jpg

It doesn't show alot of detail in this pic, but there's a vulcanized brim of rubber around the inside perimeter of a steel (aluminum?) gasket frame. It has a 2-sided sealing edge, sort of like a wiper blade.

Dropping the pan isn't that hard a job. I've done 3 now:

- did my wife's e36 m50 last year
- did my son's e34 m30 last month
- just finished doing my e32 m30 last weekend and getting ready to do another one on my Alfa not long from now. I must be a glutton for punishment.

If you line up the parts and do a front suspension R&R job at the same time, and drop the subframe, it's really not much extra work and makes it really easy to get to everything and have a wide open view to do an inspection and replace other stuff as well, such as motor mounts & leaking power steering hoses.

[anonymous1]

Hi,

Managed to have a look underneath this weekend, after going through just over 2L oil in 3-weeks(ish). :( I couldn't see any oil building near the filter housing and the driver's side appeared to be pretty clean from any spray. Checked around the gasket and there doesn't seem to be any oil this high up the sump.

I then checked the dipstick guide as it appeared oil had been building at the base. Removed it yesterday to find that the O-ring had split in 2 (only half came out). I have now replaced this (approx 30p) and after about a 15 mile road test, the normal oil does not seem to have come back as yet. I'll be keeping an eye on the oil level over the coming weeks, but fingers crossed it's this simple. :D It also seems to have cured the bang I was getting and slight hesitation... Which I'll be amazed at, after all the other work I did to try and stop it, http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?p=297638&highlight=hesitation&page=2, then to sort it for 30p!

I did also notice whilst having a look that there seems to have been rubber sealant put around the base of the guide... As if someone has previously tried to stop a leak. I'm only guessing BM would not have put it there as it's definately not the most tidy of jobs.

Cheers again for advice on this one, here's hoping I now don't have to use it though. :p

[russiankid]

Sounds like you fixed a vacuum leak as well! If you remove the dipstick while the engine is running, it should start to shake and run rough.

[anonymous1]

Sounds like you fixed a vacuum leak as well! If you remove the dipstick while the engine is running, it should start to shake and run rough.

Hi,

Yeah I thought I'd checked everywhere for a leak, but didn't even think of this until the oil problem. I'd pulled the dipstick and noticed the engine warble, but idle was always fine, staying at about 550.

On a even happier note, it's been 5-days and about 60 miles and I still have a full reading on the old oil. So at present two birds remained killed with one rather small stone. :D