OT: what would cause a HG failure on a ford 3.0 vulcan? long...

[ryan roopnarine]

The car is a 1999 ford taurus with 3.0 Vulcan 12 valve SOHC.
It has 170k miles/272k km on it.

I was driving down the highway with the cruise control set to 73-75mph on sunday. I disengage the cruise control, but when i try to resume speed, I hear what sounds like severe detonation. Just to clarify, I had begun to hear a rattling from the belt drive area several days prior. This car has a penchant for eating PS pumps, so i picked one up and put it into the trunk. Personal issues didn't allow me to investigate the actual cause of the noise on Sat/Sun, though. I pull off the road and find that the noise stops at idle, but then the battery light illuminates and the engine dies. The temperature gauge indicates about 1/2, the normal operating temperature is a little over 1/3. This isn't a chevrolet, and has enough reserve to go to 1/2 safely. I observe the water pump pulley is sitting off to the side, smoke/steam is coming from the base of the head, and the three front spark plugs. (this is a push rod engine). Back cylinder head appears fine. I attempt to turn the shaft of the WP, and find that it is seized. I go back into the car, deluding myself about why smoke would be coming from the head, and check the temps. 1/2, which should mean that I would be ok HG wise. Cut to the chase. Firestone puts a combustion gas tester to the resivoir and says that it instantly lights up :(. Normally, I wouldn't trust firestone for shiat, but their pronouncement combined with the observed smoke probably means that the head gasket is gone. 36-48 hours and a ford pick up truck later, I'm at school waiting for an advisor to add me to a class that I was dropped from for lack of first day attendance.

Here's the details.
These ford tauruses 96-06 seem to have a significant problem with rust in the coolant system. If you go to any junkyard, you would be hard pressed to find a taurus cooling resivoir without rust in it, whereas a ford ranger with the same engine will have a spotless bottle. I was losing about 1 thermostat a year because they were sticking open in this car (due to rust). vehicle gets driven about 25k a year of mostly city driving. Late Last year, I changed the thermostat and completely replaced the antifreeze mix with distilled water, which was changed every 3 months or so. This was in an attempt to get the system clean enough to go back to antifreeze by november. I live in florida, so i didn't need the freeze protection. The car also had almost none of the endemic vulcan ping when it had a fresh charge of distilled, so i knew that some nasties needed to be purged from the cooling system. The coolant bottle had recently become consistently clearer than before. I also changed the front bank (only) of the spark plugs immediately before this happened, but I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with it....I hope. Also, I had begun to lug this car out a lot more because of gas prices. Not the smartest thing to do in a car with congenital pinging issues, but it was done. by this i mean 37 mph at ~1300-1400 rpm in a 35 or lonely 40mph zone. No milkshake on dipstick.

Alright then. There are a lot of mechanically inclined people here. This motor is not prone to gasket failure. Anyone take a guess as to why it failed?
Was it:

Coolant pump failure (indicated temp didn't get above 1/2)
Clog somewhere/rust
Pinging combined with lugging
Spark plugs (i know)
Old age of gasket and hard life (170k miles/260k km)
Distilled instead of antifreeze

Or some combination of all. Thanks. Also, please don't suggest that I junk this car. I learned to drive on it, and it provides pretty consistent service and very low cost of ownership. I would like to do the HG on it myself.

[bad_manners_god]

As far as your temp gauge goes, you can drive a car with a lot of coolant missing, as long as your going fast enough the incoming rushing air cools the engine.

Happened to me on my E34, driving all day no problem, stop at red lights, stop signs, no sign of over-heating. If you stayed stopped for more than 1-2 minutes the temp would start to creep up and then at the 3/4 mark start to rise fast so I would start driving again and in a couple seconds the temp gauge goes back to the middle.

As far as the reason it could be any of those (except water instead of anti-frezze)....to check if there is a clog, take out the thermostat and put a garden hose through the opening and see if water comes out the other end at a steady pressure....if it doesn't it's a clog somewhere between the thermo housing and the bottom rad hose.

The thing about doing the HG on a V6 is that both could be finished and you wouldn't know unless you opened both heads. So it means doing 2 HG's.

[repenttokyo]

As far as your temp gauge goes, you can drive a car with a lot of coolant missing, as long as your going fast enough the incoming rushing air cools the engine.

Happened to me on my E34, driving all day no problem, stop at red lights, stop signs, no sign of over-heating. If you stayed stopped for more than 1-2 minutes the temp would start to creep up and then at the 3/4 mark start to rise fast so I would start driving again and in a couple seconds the temp gauge goes back to the middle.



really really bad idea on the M50 engine, or any engine with aluminum heads.

[Ross]

Read your own post. You're kidding. Right?

[whiskychaser]

I am amazed Ford US was still making push-rod engines in 1999. Ford UK stopped making them about 30 years earlier when they discovered the over-head cam:) That said, you mentioned the water pump was seized. That's enough to stuff the motor on its own. Are we looking for more reasons?

[repenttokyo]

I am amazed Ford US was still making push-rod engines in 1999. Ford UK stopped making them about 30 years earlier when they discovered the over-head cam:) That said, you mentioned the water pump was seized. That's enough to stuff the motor on its own. Are we looking for more reasons?


the corvette still uses a push rod engine, there is nothing wrong with the design.

[whiskychaser]

the corvette still uses a push rod engine, there is nothing wrong with the design.
This has got to be a misunderstanding in terms. A pushrod engine pre-dates engines with overhead cams. Even the M30 has them:D

Edit: Just re-read your original post. It says SOHC so it clearly isnt a pushrod engine. Either way a stuffed water pump isnt going to keep it cool:(

[repenttokyo]

This has got to be a misunderstanding in terms. A pushrod engine pre-dates engines with overhead cams. Even the M30 has them:D

Edit: Just re-read your original post. It says SOHC so it clearly isnt a pushrod engine. Either way a stuffed water pump isnt going to keep it cool:(

i don't understand...what is so wrong with using a pushrod engine? It is an inexpensive way to make power.

[ryan roopnarine]

pardon ai moi about sohc. my mistake. 12 valves, pushrod. i've had too many fools ask me sohc or dohc to differentiate between the two and try to sell me fan clutches for this fwd car in the last 48-60 hours that i got confused.

[ryan roopnarine]

I am amazed Ford US was still making push-rod engines in 1999. Ford UK stopped making them about 30 years earlier when they discovered the over-head cam:) That said, you mentioned the water pump was seized. That's enough to stuff the motor on its own. Are we looking for more reasons?

more like 18-20


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cologne_V6_engine

[Ross]

No pushrods in my M30s
We call 'em rocker arms. #14
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD13&mospid=47408&btnr=11_1188&hg=11&fg=25
They are somewhere under the bonnet

[whiskychaser]

No pushrods in my M30s
We call 'em rocker arms. #14
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD13&mospid=47408&btnr=11_1188&hg=11&fg=25
They are somewhere under the bonnet
I would call those rocker arms too Ross :D Probably the last time I saw some was on a Ford Anglia. IIRC the Ford Pop. was a side valve motor so it wont have been that. What I meant was that even the M30 was OHC not OHV. I'm just surprised that pushrod engines are still made. But then again so are Harleys:D

[repenttokyo]

I would call those rocker arms too Ross :D Probably the last time I saw some was on a Ford Anglia. IIRC the Ford Pop. was a side valve motor so it wont have been that. What I meant was that even the M30 was OHC not OHV. I'm just surprised that pushrod engines are still made. But then again so are Harleys:D

why is it so surprising?

[whiskychaser]

why is it so surprising?

Must be having been brought up on Lotus twin cams:D They were around from the early 60's. My favourite though is probably the BDA motor from the early 70's. That went into the Escort RS1600s. I once owned a 1967 MK2 Cortina that was pushrod but the 1972 2 litre I had in about 1976 was already OHC. And if the cambelt snapped it didnt mangle the valves and pistons. It seems to me the OHV operated like a toilet flush system-loads of levers where energy gets lost and too many places for wear to play a part. Chaining the crank and cam together seems a lot simpler and more efficient. But as I havent seen an OHV for 30 odd years I'm no expert :D

[ryan roopnarine]

alright, I'm a glutton for punishment, so I'll ask the question I meant to ask.

12v OHV 3l ford motor. 1999 ford taurus. we've owned it since 1999, it was a lease return with approximately 20k miles on it at the time. motor built on 9/11/98.

it is highly unlikely that this car overheated during the first 20k miles. we've never had it overheat since it has been in our possession. currently has 170k miles.

i was of the mind that most cars would allow at least one overheat before the headgasket would pop. the indicated temperature in the car never went above 1/2, which is really not that hot. I don't know where the sender is located in the motor. my m50 took a much worse overheating after the water pump impeller started freewheeling. a 1992 dodge caravan 4 cyl that i had that was broked*ck in every way took multiple without popping like this, and was far more candy a**ed a motor than the vulcan. vulcans don't have a history of popping HGs like ford 3.8s do. Is this because of old age? that's what i wanted to ask.

[632 Regal]

my guess would be an air pocket around the temperature sensor indicating everything is cool while it is really melting inside the engine. Waterpump caused it.

[Ross]

Age probably contributed, especially without corrosion protection. The fire ring of the head gasket is steel and probably rusty. Regardless, this baby overheated big time.
You seem to have great respect for the "vulcan" yet a "candy ass" Dodge and even the delicate M50 have endured more at your hands apparently without failure. Go figure?
Put a pump on, you have to anyway, and see what happens. Maybe you got lucky.

[ryan roopnarine]

dodge 2.4 and m50/m30/&c. supposedly have penchants for slow leaking or popping head gaskets. i do recall the dodge folks having to do a recall on a newer 2.4 iteration put into dodge neons and such in the late 1990s and early 2000s. vulcan may be old, relatively fuel inefficient, relatively gutless, but one thing it traditionally isn't is soft in the durability department, and it certainly isn't a head gasket popper.

i've developed a plan of attack for this that involves me being a little shady. I'm going to go down to the lkq el cheapo junkyard that is full of american hardware. it is a huge place, you have to pay $2 to get in. they have a fixed price schedule that names cylinder heads at about 30 or 40 or so. I'm going to go down there at 8 am, find a taurus that someone has already begun to take the intake manifold or other items off of and would disqualify it from being sold as a whole engine, and do a dry run head removal on the front bank. the place is huge, and conceivably, it could take someone several hours to remove a head, the employees have better things to worry about than me. if it doesn't work out, we'll take it somewhere. if it does, I'll be changing it myself. there aren't any timing chains to remove, and the procedure looks straighforward enough. anything that I can't put back on exactly the way it came off, or that I destroy, I'll man up and purchase. If the employees call me out, i can eat the 40 or so that 1 cylinder head costs. if my cylinder head comes back fuxored, i'll just run down there and scoop it up quickly. the likely scenario if the car has low mileage is that I'll buy the head, no matter what, and keep it as a spare.

alls i'm worried about is the cmp sensor. it looks like i'll need to buy a tool off of ebay for that.

[Ross]

Your junkyard has a cover charge? Is this to offset the little things that make it into some people's toolboxes? Where I live they just beat you up if caught stealing.

[ryan roopnarine]

Your junkyard has a cover charge? Is this to offset the little things that make it into some people's toolboxes? Where I live they just beat you up if caught stealing.


the place is set up like disknee world. a metal fence/cage separates the in/out traffic, and you get your hand stamped to get back in. toolboxes are inspected before you can go in, and there are significant numbers of cameras everywhere. this is the "discount" junkyard where they only have older american cars (90-2k) and way older german/import hardware. the good thing about this place is that everything except little accoutrements has a schedule of prices, and those reflect reasonable prices for the stuff. when an e32 or e34 somehow manages to make it in there, the prices for the stuff out of it are awesome. you could conceivably get a m50/tu cylinder head in decent shape for under $50.

[Bill R.]

known for corrosion problems, Frequently you have to flush it repeatedly and it still comes out rusty, The common explanation is that they have leaking head gaskets for a long time leaking exhaust gas into the cooling system which is corrosive.
This particular taurus is famous for the heater cores plugging up from the rusty gooky coolant.... So even though the water pump going bad probably allowed enough coolant to leak out which gave you the false temp reading as Jeff said, but i think the head gaskets have been going for a long long time. Many people end up having to knock all the freeze plugs out of the block and flushing and flushing the block to get all the rusty buildup up out. If you pull the heads off I'd do the same and use coolant next time.

Also when you pull the pump on that motor you often find the water pump impellar is almost completely eaten away from the corrosive buildup.

[ryan roopnarine]

oh wow. did not know that it was a well established problem. is this due to grounding issues like it is in the ford trucks?

at any rate, in the event that you read this thread again, i can save the board the waste of me asking a pointed question that you would likely be the only one that would answer. what chemical or product would you use to get the rust out? is it just a matter of getting enough water through the system until it comes clean? thanks.

[Bill R.]

what i suspected when i first saw it. Some people are claiming that ford had a problem with the blocks at the factory and a number of them came out this way. I don't know.

To flush the block i would use any cooling system flush like prestone and just keep flushing it and running the hose until it comes out clear, you may discover that the freeze plugs are trash or very thin... I don't think that water alone is going to clean it out.





oh wow. did not know that it was a well established problem. is this due to grounding issues like it is in the ford trucks?

at any rate, in the event that you read this thread again, i can save the board the waste of me asking a pointed question that you would likely be the only one that would answer. what chemical or product would you use to get the rust out? is it just a matter of getting enough water through the system until it comes clean? thanks.

[attack eagle]

the ford trucks aren't due to 'grounding' either.

galvanic corrosion (aka dissimilar metal corrosion)


They even make caps with sacrificial anodes now just for fords, same Idea as the zinc blocks on ships.

Once the passages become rusty, water is not going to make it stop.

You can try running pure antifreeze for a little while after having the radiator and block flushed out, then swapping it out for an antifreeze heavy mix 70/30 to try to minimize it. Or you can just live with rusty looking water if it is a beater.

[Bill R.]

core corrosion regarding insufficient engine grounds or overloaded grounds. Don't run straight antifreeze, it conducts heat poorly and freezes at 10F.






the ford trucks aren't due to 'grounding' either.

galvanic corrosion (aka dissimilar metal corrosion)


They even make caps with sacrificial anodes now just for fords, same Idea as the zinc blocks on ships.

Once the passages become rusty, water is not going to make it stop.

You can try running pure antifreeze for a little while after having the radiator and block flushed out, then swapping it out for an antifreeze heavy mix 70/30 to try to minimize it. Or you can just live with rusty looking water if it is a beater.

[attack eagle]

It's summer, and it is to get the thing to stop rusting internally by getting the maximum amount of anticorrosion additives into the system. Then switch to an antifreeze heavy mix, then finally to normal 50/50.

Galvanic corrosion can be accelerated by electrical charge, but absent any current, it will still create it's own and still progress. a Sacrificial anode ( something replaceable to corrode first) is the only way to preserve the actual parts.
In short... Ford is Full of ****. Forked Over Retarded Design.




Article No.: 01-15-6
Date: 08/06/01
Climate Control - Repeat Heater Core Failure
Cooling System - Repeat Heater Core Failure
FORD:
1985-1994 Tempo
1985-1997 Thunderbird
1985-2002 Crown Victoria, Escort, Mustang
1986-2002 Taurus
1988-1993 Festiva
1993-1997 Probe
1994-1997 Aspire
1995-2000 Contour
2000-2002 Escort ZX2, Focus
2002 Thunderbird
1985-1990 Bronco II
1985-1996 Bronco
1985-1997 F-250 HD, F-350
1985-2002 Econoline, F-150, Ranger
1986-1997 Aerostar
1988-1997 F Super Duty
1991-2002 Explorer
1995-2002 Windstar
1997-2002 Expedition
1999-2002 Super Duty F Series
2000-2002 Excursion
2001-2002 Escape, Explorer Sport TRAC, Explorer Sport
LINCOLN:
1985-1992 Mark VII
1985-2002 Continental, Town Car
1993-1998 Mark VIII
2000-2002 GLS
1998-2002 Navigator
MERCURY:
1985-1994 Topaz
1985-1997 Cougar
1985-2002 Grand Marquis
1986-2002 Sable
1991-1999 Tracer
1995-2000 Mystique
1999-2002 Cougar
1993-2002 Villager
1997-2001 Mountaineer
ISSUE:
Some vehicles may exhibit (repeat) heater core leaks. This may be caused by a chemical reaction called electrolysis. Electrolysis involves an ion exchange between the heater core and engine coolant which can result in a breakdown of the heater core material. This is similar to the operation of a battery.
ACTION:
Check for electrolysis on any vehicle with a heater core failure. If electrolysis is verified, flush the coolant and follow additional steps as required. Refer to the following Service Procedure for details.
SERVICE PROCEDURE:
Electrolysis Inspection:
If there is a condition of a heater core leaking or repeal heater core leak, check for electrolysis using the following procedure:
To check for electrolysis use a DVOM set on DC volts. Place the positive probe of the meter in the engine coolant and the negative probe on the negative battery post.
Adjust engine throttle to 2000 RPM to properly get coolant flow and true electrolysis voltages.
If more than .4V is recorded, flush the coolant and recheck (follow guidelines in TSB 98-23-16 for Cougar). See Coolant Fill Procedure below to remove trapped air on 4.6/5.4/6.8L modular engines.
NOTE: Export markets, be sure the water is desalinated.
If there is still excessive voltage present in the coolant, check the engine to body/battery grounds. Also, verify proper grounding of any aftermarket electrical/electronic equipment which has been installed into the vehicle. Improperly grounded electrical devices can cause electrolysis to occur.
If the condition is still present after the grounds have been checked, it may be necessary to add extra grounds to the heater core and engine. A hose clamp can be used to secure a 16 AWG stranded copper wire to the heater core inlet tube. The other end should be secured to an EXISTING FASTENER on the body sheet metal. Extra grounds to the engine should be attached between EXISTING FASTENERS on the engine and body sheet metal. Verify continuity of any added grounds to the negative battery terminal.
If the condition is still present, add a restrictor (part F1UZ-18D406-A) on the inlet hose with the arrow facing the direction of coolant flow (toward heater core). Cut the line and install with 2 hose clamps. It is important that the restrictor be installed in the right direction of flow and as close to the engine block as possible (not near the heater core itself).
Coolant Fill Procedure: At times, in order to completely remove any trapped air in the cooling system of vehicles equipped with 4.6/5.4/6.8L modular engines, it may be necessary to use the following procedure:
Disconnect the heater hose at the right front or rear of the engine.
Remove the thermostat and housing.
Using the thermostat opening, carefully fill the engine with the proper clean coolant mixture until observed at the engine side heater hose connection.
Reconnect the heater hose and reinstall the thermostat and housing.
Fill the degas bottle to the coolant fill level mark.
Run the engine until it reaches normal operating temperatures.
Select max heat and max blower speed on the climate system.
NOTE: If the heat output is insufficient, or the engine does not reach normal operating temperatures, verify proper thermostat operation and repeat procedure if required.
The flow controller goes in between the intake manifold fitting and the heater core, as close as possible to the intake manifold. Here is the proper procedure:
Allow the engine to cool and follow all shop manual safety precautions and procedures regarding the engine cooling system.
Remove radiator cap and drain coolant from the system until the level is below the heater inlet hose fitting on the engine manifold.
Remove the heater inlet hose from the fitting on the intake manifold.
Cut the hose in two, approximately 2 inches from the end that attaches to the fitting on the intake manifold.

Figure 1.
Position the in the hose in the position shown in Figure 1. Make sure the arrow on the controller points in the direction of coolant flow (towards the heater core).
Use standard heater hose clamps to secure the controller in place.
Attach the hose to the fitting on the intake manifold and clamp it into place.
Refill the radiator and top it off, if necessary.
Install the radiator cap.

[Bill R.]

poorly, translation: the engine will run hotter because the fluid can't dissipate heat through the radiator as well. I would only run 50/50 mix. Cleaning up the rust with an engine flush repeatedly is the only thing that is going to remove the rust. The metal protection from the coolant is only to prevent any additional rust.