E34 vs E39 bhp

[whiskychaser]

Have to admit that of late I have been having rather naughty dreams about E39s. But I am startled in the night by a wise man saying:
E34 525i is 192 bhp. E39 525i is only 174bhp:( E39 528i only produces 191bhp. So has BMW got it backwards? Do the newer motors produce less power? Or should I be taking more water with it?:D

[Sam-Son]

my father's E46 325 is rated at 184 hp while my 525 is rated at 189

[repenttokyo]

It's because the number on the back stopped relating to the exact size of the engine. For example, a number of 2.5, 2.0 and 3.0 liter engines are used in the cars, but the car might still be known as a 525 or a 528. It all depends on the year of the car.

Also - new cars have their horsepower rated differently than when our cars were released. It changed around 2005 - meaning that new cars have their power rated in a stricter fashion than our cars. It's explained here:

http://motortrend.automotive.com/36492/112-0508-technologue/index.html

So the cars don't really have much less power than ours at all.

[whiskychaser]

It's because the number on the back stopped relating to the exact size of the engine. For example, a number of 2.5, 2.0 and 3.0 liter engines are used in the cars, but the car might still be known as a 525 or a 528. It all depends on the year of the car.

Also - new cars have their horsepower rated differently than when our cars were released. It changed around 2005 - meaning that new cars have their power rated in a stricter fashion than our cars. It's explained here:

http://motortrend.automotive.com/36492/112-0508-technologue/index.html

So the cars don't really have much less power than ours at all.

Hang on! You cant call a car a 528 when its got a 2 litre engine! You can call it a 523 if its got a 2.5 for 'historical' reasons and I will go with that. I'm not being an arse but that link didnt have anything to do with bhp. As my friends in the south would say, ' you're 'avin' a larf'. :D

[repenttokyo]

Hang on! You cant call a car a 528 when its got a 2 litre engine! You can call it a 523 if its got a 2.5 for 'historical' reasons and I will go with that. I'm not being an arse but that link didnt have anything to do with bhp. As my friends in the south would say, ' you're 'avin' a larf'. :D

we don't use terms like bhp in north america....

[Omega]

The e39 m52 engine is rated at 174hp due to the restrictive inlet manifold. Swap it for the M50 manifold and add the M50 AFM while you're at it and you're back to 191hp.

Although the power is down you don't really notice it, especially in the Auto, as the tiptronic box is better than the e34 5HP auto. If you get an early e39 auto, swap the microswitch wires for the manual shift so that pulling towards you is "+" and pushing away is "-". Much more intuitive that way.

I always understood that the 2.5 e39 was called the "523" as BMW Europe wanted the "525" to be the tags on a diesel only variant.

The e39 is a better drive in all respects to the e34, shame that e34 still looks so much nicer......
:p

[Ferret]

I always understood that the 2.5 e39 was called the "523" as BMW Europe wanted the "525" to be the tags on a diesel only variant.

The e39 is a better drive in all respects to the e34, shame that e34 still looks so much nicer......
:p

I've seen plenty of early/late E39's driving around in this country with a 525i badge on...?

[Jon K]

we don't use terms like bhp in north america....

yes we do

and no if its a 2.0 its a 320 or 520...

if its a 523 or 323 its a 2.5L detuned for economy

if its a 525 its got a 2.5L except for the E30 which could have the 325e motor at 2.7

But every 330, 530, etc., is a 3.0L

[repenttokyo]

yes we do

and no if its a 2.0 its a 320 or 520...

if its a 523 or 323 its a 2.5L detuned for economy

if its a 525 its got a 2.5L except for the E30 which could have the 325e motor at 2.7

But every 330, 530, etc., is a 3.0L

sorry, but I don't use British horsepower when I talk about cars (bhp = 1 hp = 746 W). Even if he was talking about brake horsepower, no one has been using that for a long time, not since we started using SAE in 1971. Horsepower in in North America is reported in SAE net, and then corrected in 2005.

And regarding engines in the 5 series, you are also wrong - the current 528 is a 3 liter. It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2008/5/528iSedan/default.aspx

I'm a professional automotive writer, and I just covered BMW's entire lineup. The 3-series also shifted to having the 328's use 3.0's.

[e34.535i.sport]

[QUOTE=repenttokyo;309394]
And regarding engines in the 5 series, you are also wrong - the current 528 is a 3 liter. It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

QUOTE]

I think you have him mistaken... What he means is the 'normal' varieties (i.e. Multiples of 5!) tend to be descriptive of what engine they have: a 520 has a 2L, 525 has a 2.5L, 530 has a 3L etc etc... However, when you get a 523 it is the 2.5L engine with reduced brown sauce... as is the 528 (3L with less HP) [detuned]... Saying that, the newer 5's are a little funky... After a certain date the 525d had the 3L engine rather than the 2.5L, so it can be a mistake to 'assume' what engine is in a particular model unless you do your homework.

They've been throwing in some funky ones in for a while though, as my e46 316i had a 1.9L detuned engine in from a 318i... (That or it was a cut 'n' shut!) :D

[Ferret]

sorry, but I don't use British horsepower when I talk about cars (bhp = 1 hp = 746 W). Even if he was talking about brake horsepower, no one has been using that for a long time, not since we started using SAE in 1971. Horsepower in in North America is reported in SAE net, and then corrected in 2005.

And regarding engines in the 5 series, you are also wrong - the current 528 is a 3 liter. It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2008/5/528iSedan/default.aspx

I'm a professional automotive writer, and I just covered BMW's entire lineup. The 3-series also shifted to having the 328's use 3.0's.

What the hell is 'british' horse power?

like seriously wtf? I think he was refering to brake horse power, you know the amount of power minus drive train losses?

[repenttokyo]

What the hell is 'british' horse power?

like seriously wtf? I think he was refering to brake horse power, you know the amount of power minus drive train losses?


? British horsepower is equal to 746 watts, it's the original system used in Britain to measure horsepower, and it differs from other measurement units.

You will notice that I also mentioned brake horsepower, but brake horsepower has not been used by North American automanufacturers for a very long time - 40 years. THat was my point. We used SAE net and corrected SAE net. Brake horsepower is an outdated form of measurement.

[whiskychaser]

sorry, but I don't use British horsepower when I talk about cars (bhp = 1 hp = 746 W). Even if he was talking about brake horsepower, no one has been using that for a long time, not since we started using SAE in 1971. Horsepower in in North America is reported in SAE net, and then corrected in 2005.

And regarding engines in the 5 series, you are also wrong - the current 528 is a 3 liter. It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2008/5/528iSedan/default.aspx

I'm a professional automotive writer, and I just covered BMW's entire lineup. The 3-series also shifted to having the 328's use 3.0's.

First, my humble apologies. The link you provided does work - I just got a stupid pop-up in the way. And its an interesting article. I was indeed talking about brake horse power. With regard to the 523/525, Parkers lists only the 523 from '96 to 2000 but from the 2000 ( UK 'W' plate) it lists both to 2003. I had thought the 523 was just a lower spec than the 525 but both are listed in SE form. Shows how wrong you can be:D

[Jon K]

sorry, but I don't use British horsepower when I talk about cars (bhp = 1 hp = 746 W). Even if he was talking about brake horsepower, no one has been using that for a long time, not since we started using SAE in 1971. Horsepower in in North America is reported in SAE net, and then corrected in 2005.

And regarding engines in the 5 series, you are also wrong - the current 528 is a 3 liter. It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2008/5/528iSedan/default.aspx

I'm a professional automotive writer, and I just covered BMW's entire lineup. The 3-series also shifted to having the 328's use 3.0's.

LOL what? British horsepower? LOL huh?

BHP = brake horsepower. Anytime you see a horsepower figure mentioned by a car manufacturer its is bhp, or brake horsepower, aka horsepower at the flywheel before drivetrain loss. Its the only horsepower figure used - no manufacturer quotes "wheel horsepower". SAE is just is just a group that devised the standard - the term "SAE HP" is still "BHP" by definition. It is power at the flywheel before gearbox and drivetrain loss. That's exactly what BHP is. SAE gross and net hp is a trick to lower horsepower ratings for insurance quoting in the early 70's.

All engines from all manufacturers are quoted bhp at the flywheel you can call it SAE net power if you want, or "SAE HP" if you want, but its still flywheel brake horsepower.

And you're right I forgot about the current cars. But its just like the older cars.

530 = 3.0L 528 = 3.0 detuned
525 = 2.5L 523 = 2.5 detuned

same tradition, I merely forgot about the latest batch.

[repenttokyo]

LOL what? British horsepower? LOL huh?


it was intended as a joke, but no one got it.



BHP = brake horsepower. Anytime you see a horsepower figure mentioned by a car manufacturer its is bhp, or brake horsepower, aka horsepower at the flywheel before drivetrain loss. Its the only horsepower figure used - no manufacturer quotes "wheel horsepower". SAE is just is just a group that devised the standard - the term "SAE HP" is still "BHP" by definition.


it might 'mean' the same thing, but the term BHP is rarely used on our continent, while it is commonly used in Europe



It is power at the flywheel before gearbox and drivetrain loss. That's exactly what BHP is. SAE gross and net hp is a trick to lower horsepower ratings for insurance quoting in the early 70's.



the correction that was made in 2005 was because there were no clear standards as to what the difference was betweeen sae net and gross. Manufacturers were able to fudge the numbers quite a bit when reporting SAE net and there was no 'standard' for other car companies to call them out on. When the new measurement standards were released in 2005, many car companies saw drops in reported power, although a few, like general motors saw gains because they had been anticipating the correction.

SAE gross and net are not a 'trick'...it was two different ways of measuring power.



All engines from all manufacturers are quoted bhp at the flywheel you can call it SAE net power if you want, or "SAE HP" if you want, but its still flywheel brake horsepower.


that may be, but it's not a term that many people use on this side of the ocean.



And you're right I forgot about the current cars. But its just like the older cars.

530 = 3.0L 528 = 3.0 detuned
525 = 2.5L 523 = 2.5 detuned

same tradition, I merely forgot about the latest batch.

The 528 is not a detuned 3.0. It actually makes the same horsepower that the 530 did (around 230), but they just changed the name - probably so that it wasn't too close-sounding to the 535.

And there are no 525's currently for sale in NA.

it certainly doesn't help when BMW changes their naming nomenclature every few years either!

[repenttokyo]

First, my humble apologies. The link you provided does work - I just got a stupid pop-up in the way. And its an interesting article. I was indeed talking about brake horse power. With regard to the 523/525, Parkers lists only the 523 from '96 to 2000 but from the 2000 ( UK 'W' plate) it lists both to 2003. I had thought the 523 was just a lower spec than the 525 but both are listed in SE form. Shows how wrong you can be:D

it's super confusing and it's weird how BMW constantly decides to change their branding.

[Jon K]

The 528 is not a detuned 3.0. It actually makes the same horsepower that the 530 did (around 230), but they just changed the name - probably so that it wasn't too close-sounding to the 535.





And there are no 525's currently for sale in NA.


No not currently - I was talking about the E39 525 -> 523, just like E60 530 -> 528.

I am confused what 528 and 530 are you comparing?

The E39 528 made like 193 hp, the 530 made 230 hp and used completely different engines (M52TU vs M54)

2004 - 2005 had an E60 525 which made 184 hp, and a 530i which made 225 using the M54B25 and M54B30 engines respectively.

In 2006 BMW switched to the more modern N52 engine, which had a 525i and 530i (N52B25 and N52B30). 215 hp vs 255 hp.

Then finally they released the E60 528i in 2007 and gave it the N52B30 (same engine code as 530i) except it makes 230 hp not the 255 hp that the 530i makes - thus, its a detuned 530i motor... even if it is 3.0L. BMW tends to stick to their numbering in terms of performance if not engine size. Since the run of N52B30s they probably didn't want to shrink the motor to 2.8 or anything and rather just detune it some for more economic performance.

[repenttokyo]

No not currently - I was talking about the E39 525 -> 523, just like E60 530 -> 528.

I am confused what 528 and 530 are you comparing?

The E39 528 made like 193 hp, the 530 made 230 hp and used completely different engines (M52TU vs M54)

2004 - 2005 had an E60 525 which made 184 hp, and a 530i which made 225 using the M54B25 and M54B30 engines respectively.

In 2006 BMW switched to the more modern N52 engine, which had a 525i and 530i (N52B25 and N52B30). 215 hp vs 255 hp.

Then finally they released the E60 528i in 2007 and gave it the N52B30 (same engine code as 530i) except it makes 230 hp not the 255 hp that the 530i makes - thus, its a detuned 530i motor... even if it is 3.0L. BMW tends to stick to their numbering in terms of performance if not engine size. Since the run of N52B30s they probably didn't want to shrink the motor to 2.8 or anything and rather just detune it some for more economic performance.


I was comparing the M54B30 to the current engine in the 528, the N52B30. The M54 was the first engine in the E60 530 - 04/05 - then it went to the more power version of the N52, then back to the weak N52.

[Jon K]

Its not a weak N52. Its the same N52 with a detune, like I said.

Its literally the same engine in the N52 530 and the N52 528 - They detune the engines to keep performance in check with the modeling. People who buy the "528 N52" are looking for a good car with decent economy, else they'd buy the 535 or 550i.

The M54B30 and N52B30 in the 528 make the same power on paper but the curves are way different (infinitely variable valve timing on the N52) and the economy is improved.

[repenttokyo]

Its not a weak N52. Its the same N52 with a detune, like I said.

Its literally the same engine in the N52 530 and the N52 528 - They detune the engines to keep performance in check with the modeling. People who buy the "528 N52" are looking for a good car with decent economy, else they'd buy the 535 or 550i.

The M54B30 and N52B30 in the 528 make the same power on paper but the curves are way different (infinitely variable valve timing on the N52) and the economy is improved.

weak as in less horsepower.

[Mordan]

They've been throwing in some funky ones in for a while though, as my e46 316i had a 1.9L detuned engine in from a 318i... (That or it was a cut 'n' shut!) :D


I dislike the modern BMWs... and this kind of stupid confusion is unlike the German spirit of scientific categories

ah the style since the E34 (arguably the E38) is just so commercially correct.