Car died. Alternator?

[NielsGalan]

So I had to call a tow truck today. First time ever, and it felt really embarassing. It's really cool to be driving around in a 19 year old car that still looks good. But it is equally uncool to be standing roadside by your 19 year old car with the hazard lights on waiting for a tow truck :-) But I'll live.

So here's what happens:

- Upon startup the last few mornings alternator belt has squealed for 2 seconds. Belt is new and tight, so this has puzzled me. I'm adding this in hindsight to build my case against the alternator.

- This afternoon the Oil pressure light comes on. Plenty of oil in there. Start the car and continue. Light stays on.

- Wierd highpitched whirring sound from engine, coming in bursts. It is not the belt sound. Something is definetely sounds broken. Actually sounds like a child screaming. Sound kicks in at higher rpm's. No noise while idling. Almost no power from the engine.

- The engine struggling, I get over the hill and go easy on the car. Trying to make it home so I can park it and have a look.

- Going slightly down hill and in neutral engine dies. Roll as far as I can and stop by the roadside.

- Try to start engine, but almost zero power. I call the tow truck.

All this is within a period of 10 minutes.

I'm guessing the alternator is dead/seized. Do you agree? I do not know where the oil pressure light comes into the equation, but maybe this makes sense.

Any input is appreciated.

[BMWDriver]

The oil pump must be dead. I do not know your engine well, but the pump would likely be also driven by the belt. If it had been the alternator, you would not have had much electrical power to even put the blinkers on, though your trip only lasted ten minutes.

You could have serious damage to the engine, by the way. The sounds you described are quite foreboding.

I'm quite sorry to say, but I can't exactly imagine why the oil pressure warning would come on otherwise, and why it would go on for an alternator problem.

[632 Regal]

sounds typical of a bad alternator.

[DaveVoorhis]

The oil pump must be dead.
Very, very unlikely.

It does sound like a failed alternator, however. The oil light may be coming on as the seizing alternator briefly slows down the engine, and/or because the battery is low.

[NielsGalan]

Wow thanks Jeff and Dave. BMWDriver almost ruined my night's sleep completely :-)

RE: "you would not have had much electrical power to even put the blinkers on." It seemed that the hazard lights were on a different circuit or at least on some emergency reserve, so they worked although no power to the rest of the car. No mystery there.

I'm more confident now, having read up on the subject + your input. Thanks.

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

My alternator went out a couple months ago, it was the regulator that failed.

I noticed that as it was dying the electrical started to act wierd.

1st the radio died, gauges went crazy and died, then the motor started to run rough and died...the battery was totaly dead..

[tim eh?]

when my alt died the only light that came on was the abs light it kind of flickered... i checked it out the abs is on the same circuit as the alt and starter... i thought that was a weird setup but whatever seems like every car's got its own thang when the alt goes.

edit- oh yeah the radio died first in mine too when the battery died ... first the amp (i could hear the speakers click off) then a few minutes later power to the head.

[NielsGalan]

So I had the alternator out today and took it to a guy who specializes in rebuilding and fixing alternators. According to him the alternator is just fine. He gave it a once over, cleaned it and soforth, but he said it checked out fine. When I took it out it spun fine and didn't "seem" broken.

So I'm going to reinstall it "tomorrow", get out the jumper cables and see what the car says.

Hope she'll come back to life. Something definetely sounded broken, so I'll be careful.

[Ross]

Agreed

[Ross]

So much for my agreement then.

[NielsGalan]

So much for my agreement then.

Qué? Me not follow.

[DaveVoorhis]

So I had the alternator out today and took it to a guy who specializes in rebuilding and fixing alternators. According to him the alternator is just fine. He gave it a once over, cleaned it and soforth, but he said it checked out fine. When I took it out it spun fine and didn't "seem" broken.
Before you re-install the alternator, check all other mechanisms operated by the accessory belts, such as the water pump, idler pulleys (if any), air conditioning compressor, and so forth. All should turn smoothly without play. Examine the belts themselves for fraying or glazing.

Another possible source of noises and poor performance is a failing turbo.

[NielsGalan]

Before you re-install the alternator, check all other mechanisms operated by the accessory belts, such as the water pump, idler pulleys (if any), air conditioning compressor, and so forth. All should turn smoothly without play. Examine the belts themselves for fraying or glazing.

Another possible source of noises and poor performance is a failing turbo.

Water pump is brand new, no AC, but I'll have a look and give them all a spin.

Interesting you should mention the turbo, because my first reaction to the noise was "hey what's up with the turbo". I dismissed it after I lost all electric power. But could these things be connected? Bad turbo and complete power loss?

[DaveVoorhis]

When you say you tried to start the car after it stalled and there was almost no power, do you mean the starter lacked the power to turn the engine? Or did the starter turn fine and the running engine lacked power?

I believe the oil pressure light doubles as a turbo overpressure warning light. I'm suspecting turbo problems.

[NielsGalan]

When you say you tried to start the car after it stalled and there was almost no power, do you mean the starter lacked the power to turn the engine? Or did the starter turn fine and the running engine lacked power?

I believe the oil pressure light doubles as a turbo overpressure warning light. I'm suspecting turbo problems.


Starter lacked electrical power to turn. Dashboard lights hardly lit up as well. Clearly a dead battery.

[DaveVoorhis]

Starter lacked electrical power to turn. Dashboard lights hardly lit up as well. Clearly a dead battery.
Hmmm... That sure points to electrical/battery/alternator problems. Maybe the alternator bearings are only seizing under the belt load, but then without load I'd expect them to grind like a pencil sharpener. Maybe the battery or some accessory is shorting out and putting a heavy load on the alternator, which can cause the belt to slip. Maybe multiple, unrelated problems? Drive it down here and I'll take a look at it! :D

[Tiger]

Then I would say it is probably your fusible link that burnt out.

[Ross]

Qué? Me not follow.
http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?p=310378
Poorly phrased also, I should have said so much for being in agreement.
Any update?

[NielsGalan]

http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?p=310378
Poorly phrased also, I should have said so much for being in agreement.
Any update?

No news yet. Weather's too bad. Actually, it's what's left of hurricane Ike that's over us now.

Will keep you posted.

[tim eh?]

i had my alternator tested when i was getting similar engine noises. it tested ok. a month later it was really dead and all my problems went away when i replaced it with a rebuilt one. how is your stereo working?

i found the obc test 09 (voltage at 'terminal r') to be really helpful when all this was going on. also taking voltage readings at the battery with a multimeter.

[Paul in NZ]

the alternator may be ok it might be the voltage regulator(diode??) thats gone...quite possible that you didnt have enough power to crank the engine but the lights are ok(for a while(they draw less than the starter)

[NielsGalan]

interesting about the diodes, fusible link, stereo etc., but none of those things explain the sick sounds the car made before it died. That's what troubles me ...

I'll have a proper look over the weekend, try to spin the various things which the belts drive and then carefully start her up.

I've also noticed what resembles metal shavings on and around the alternator. Could just be crap, and it may or may not "always" have been there, but I'll need to remove the cam belt cover and have a look inside.

I'll report back sat/sunday.

best, Niels the Public Transport User.

[DaveVoorhis]

The 524tds has a belt-driven camshaft. If the cam belt has stretched, walked down the pulleys and started to chew its way through the cam-belt cover, or if the idler has seized, this would definitely explain the noises and poor performance. It still wouldn't explain the low battery.

[NielsGalan]

The 524tds has a belt-driven camshaft. If the cam belt has stretched, walked down the pulleys and started to chew its way through the cam-belt cover, or if the idler has seized, this would definitely explain the noises and poor performance. It still wouldn't explain the low battery.

Yes. The timing belt was replaced a year ago by a proper bmw dealership in Germany. I changed the water pump a couple of months ago, and I needed to loosen the cam belt to remove the pump, but I was careful to mark everything so everything came back together properly. So the belt should be fine.

What's this idler thingy you mention? Is it the thingy that adjusts the tension of the timing belt?

[DaveVoorhis]

What's this idler thingy you mention? Is it the thingy that adjusts the tension of the timing belt?
Yes, the idler adjusts the tension of the timing belt. It should have been replaced when the belt was replaced, but they can fail and if the belt wasn't properly re-tensioned when it was re-installed, it can walk up the pulleys and rub on the belt cover. I've seen it happen on an M20B20 petrol engine

[NielsGalan]

Well, it appears that the mystery has been solved.

After having the alternator checked and it was found ok, I went in and had a look behind the cam belt cover and everything looked ok. I turned the engine by hand a few times and found the engine to be a bit squeaky.

So I check the engine oil level again (after the car has been sitting there for a week) and lo and behold! The problem was .... wait for it .... too little engine oil! Exactly what the car was trying to tell me in the first place. (Insert blushing smiley here)

Upon having this "problem" the first thing I did was to check the oil and it looked fine. But today it was a different story. I pulled around 3 liters of engine oil out of the car. Should be around 6.5 liters in there. Shock and horror.

So now I just feel stupid. I tried to start the car gently after checking the belts and stuff and it started just fine. Power and all. So it appears that the engine has been seized or something due to a severe lack of engine oil.

The engine "seems" to be fine now, but I think the turbo is making a new sound since the ... incident.

Off course I'll be extra gentle and attentive the first couple of days. It's pretty optimistic to hope that the engine can walk away after being mistreated that way, but I'm having my fingers crossed.

Well ok missing 3 litres of engine oil is peanuts! This video indicates that the M21 engine is one durable MF! They're really getting medieval on that engine's ass :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4l5PhKhT3U

ps. I regularly check the oil level, and it has always been fine. Where 3 liters of oil just up and went suddenly - that's the question...

[Tiger]

Maybe out through the turbo lines ro burned through the turbo... look for blue smoke or puddle of oil.

[attack eagle]

yep, blown turbo.
check it for shaft play, left right up down in out at the impeller... If there is ANY movement exceeding a 16th of an inch,

even IF the engine is ok> the turbo isn;t.
Don't drive it until you can change the turbo. Ingesting metal shavings from impellers scraping or bearings self destructing is NOT beneficial.


Where 'd the oil go? probably out your tailpipe every time you asked for boost.

[NielsGalan]

So I'm looking at at dead turbo.

Very interesting. After the car had been at a BMW shop in Germany I started noticing a new sound, a high pitched whine. I have always associated this sound with the turbo or transmission, but it can very well have been the turbo all along.

Yesterday when I was missing a shitload of engine oil I talked to my oil-guy and wanted the same grade as the BMW shop had put in the year before. He was appalled by what I told him, as he said that that was way too thin for such an old engine. I think it was called 0w30 or there about, the 0 being the thinnest possible.

Inevitable as my turbo failure may have been, it looks like it was helped along by water thin engine oil.

[Tiger]

Thin oil as long as it is high quality synthetic oil... has better protection and sheer force protection than the thicker one. That's old timer thinking for the old dino oil... yet the thinner oil has better protection than the thicker one in dino too.

[NielsGalan]

Yep, turbo has left the building. Went in and had a look. Definetly a lot of play and it was dirty and oily. Time to spend some serious cash.

Now I just need to read up on the subject (in this thread I think I've laid out my near total ignorance of engines for all to see :-) so I can see what went wrong. For example will the play in the turbo alone cause the oil to disappear into all the wrong places, etc.

Thanks for all your replies.

[bubba966]

The 0 in 0w30 pertains to the cold properties of the oil (the 30 pertains to the thickness when at approx. 100 degrees C). It'll flow better at lower temps (before the engine is up to operating temp). Which is a good thing. Used to be that dino oil didn't have the sheer resistance needed in lighter weight oils thus providing less protection. Not to mention older engines (like 50+ years ago) didn't have quite the small tolerances that engines of the last few decades have had. So as the tolerances for the oil path wasn't as tight, and you needed thicker oil for the sheer protection you could and needed to run thicker oil.

Jump to modern times and good synthetics have more sheer protection than heavy dino oils ever did. And engine tolerances keep getting tighter and tighter. And if you run oil thats too thick the oil pressure goes up, which decreases oil circulation, and decreased oil circulation leads to hotter oil temps as it doesn't get circulated fast enough to cool the oil down. It's soaking up more heat than it can dissipate due to the slower oil flow. Not to mention that thicker oil doesn't always flow into all of the places it needs to, or doesn't flow as much oil into places it needs to be. Can lead to oil starvation in spots creating friction which creates heat which ruins engine components.

A turbo engine should have cool, clean oil with plenty of flow. Which is why that shop put 0w30 in your engine (oh, and 0w30 isn't the thinnest oil you can get, many companies make a 0w20. Not sure if anyone makes anything lighter than a 0w20).

Thing is that it's not uncommon for a 0w30 to not mask noise. Depends on the type of 0w30. Would guess that you had a thicker oil in it before the 0w30 that was masking a noise that was always there.

Some brands make more noise than others. Mobil 1 for instance is rather noisy. PO of my car used to run a 10w40 Mobil 1 in my car (if I'm recalling right). Was a bit noisy. I changed it over to Amsoil 0w30 and it's not noisy anymore. So noise isn't just a symptom of weight, but also make.

The 0w30 should've had nothing to do with the death of your turbo. They die due to heat, dirty oil, lack of proper lubrication, and just plain old age.

How many miles are on your engine? How many miles on the turbo?