Ticking lifters? Goes away when in gear

[LunatiC]

Hey everyone,

My E34 (1995 525i M50) has developed ticking noises. I have had the lifters replaced about 2 years ago, but since then I had a blown head gasket that has been replaced.

I have now developed a ticking noise that sounds a lot similar to sticking lifters. What's really weird though, is that the ticking noise only really comes into play when the car is in gear and has been idling for a couple of minutes. The longer the car's in idle, the louder it becomes. I have an auto transmission, and when I put it into Park or Neutral, the idle RPM goes up a bit and the sound disappears. The sound also disappears when I put the gas down to move the car (ie. when traffic lights turn green, etc)

Do I have sticky lifters? I thought that if I was to have them, then the sound would be there all the time, and increase in loudness / frequency when the RPMs build up.

BTW, I also have a rattly alternator / belt that my mechanic doesn't know why is happening. Whenever there's electrical load on the car, or the car's idle, it makes a 'rattling' or gurgling noise. Rattling isn't exactly the right description for the noise, but it's the closest I can come up with for now. It seems that whenever this noise is evident, eventually the ticking noise comes along with it, but I am not sure if it's just coincidence or if they are related.

With the last oil change, the car was filled with Castrol semi-synthetic 15W-40.

Any ideas / comments are most welcome.

[winfred]

try 10w30 or 5w30 and see how it does with thinner oil, the lifters get a little bitchy with thick oil sometimes but it is usually at start up, worst case i can think of is maybe the oil pump is sucking air but that is kinda rare

[Sam-Son]

yeah i have a 95 M50 with the same loud lifters
oddly I know of a few other 95 M50's with the same problem
anyways I put in some Marvel mystery oil try and clear out some gunk see how that goes

[bsell]

Time to stick an accurate oil pressure gauge on it to see what is happening.

My guess is you have a tired oil pump that can't maintain pressure at the slow idle speed. The ticking lifters are giving you a 'warning' of this condition that can wipe your bearing surfaces if you don't do something about the lack of oil flow.

Or you could have traveling 'crude' that an intensive de-varnishing of the engine internals may eliminate. A look-see under the valve cover and a round of oil pressure checks should give you the answer you seek.

Brian

[RobPatt]

perhaps... but I'd just put thinner oil in it....

easier to pump thinner oil.... easier to circulate....

my thought is today's synthetics let you get away with a thinner oil since their protection and breakdown are so much better....

anyway I've ran 5w30 then 0w40 for the last 6 years and now have 0w30 in my M50Tu w/no issues.... 158K miles, owned the car since it had 80K.

your idle noise may be (probably) the primary belt's tensioner and pulley. pretty cheap parts, maybe $100 total and with a lift it's not too hard to replace... just need some creativity to reach some bolts... a good light to see what's up in there.... you have to take the tensioner mount off, but in good BMW fashion you'll see there's only 1 way it all goes back together... but you must also reassemble in that manner or you'll wind up taking it out and doing it again... get new belts while you're at it - doesn't hurt.

cheers, rob




Time to stick an accurate oil pressure gauge on it to see what is happening.

My guess is you have a tired oil pump that can't maintain pressure at the slow idle speed. The ticking lifters are giving you a 'warning' of this condition that can wipe your bearing surfaces if you don't do something about the lack of oil flow.

Or you could have traveling 'crude' that an intensive de-varnishing of the engine internals may eliminate. A look-see under the valve cover and a round of oil pressure checks should give you the answer you seek.

Brian

[ahlem]

check your exhaust manifold studs and gaskets just to be sure. Some BMW models are prone to loosening studs and ticking noises are the result.
You can feel the leak if you start the car and check when cold. Be sure not to get your hand stuck anywhere and have a helper there to turn off the car in case.
Also check your plug wires at night in the dark to see if you are arcing somewhere.

[LunatiC]

I just spoke to the (future) father in law who is a mechanic at Ford Australia. He reckons I should be putting thicker oil in, at least 20W-50. I know that this is contradictory to the previous posts above, but is there a reason why you guys would recommend thinner oil, but other people recommending thicker? The user manual also shows pretty thick oil for my temperature / climate...

The lifters have always tapped on start up, I accept this as a characteristic of the M50, and the noise does go away after about 5 mins, my concern was that the noise would be coming back (albeit a lot quieter, but still there) during normal driving at idle. I have had the cost of lifters burn a hole in my wallet before, and I'd rather not spend the serious dosh to replace them again.

I haven't checked the oil pressure since I don't have a gauge, and the bolts seem to be fine. I'm pretty wary of running such thin oil as 5w or 0w, what oil brands do you guys recommend?

[bubba966]

I just spoke to the (future) father in law who is a mechanic at Ford Australia. He reckons I should be putting thicker oil in, at least 20W-50. I know that this is contradictory to the previous posts above, but is there a reason why you guys would recommend thinner oil, but other people recommending thicker? The user manual also shows pretty thick oil for my temperature / climate...

Used to be that oils didn't have the additives in them to resist breaking down and resist shearing. So if you wanted good lubrication you went with thicker oils as thinner oils didn't cut it. Also older engines didn't have quite the tight tolerances that engines of the last couple of decades have had. So you could easily get away with running thicker oils as there was room for the oil to get where it was supposed to go.

But that's not true anymore. A current synthetic 0w20 has got better shear resistance and wear properties than 20w50 dino oil had back in the day.

So you end up talking to these older mechanics that were taught that thicker oils were better for noise reduction and lubrication. Which at one time was correct. And they just never learned any different.

If the oil is too thick to get where it's supposed to go then it won't be lubricating properly. Lack of lube will cause noise. I know your owners manual shows thicker oils to use. But oil technology has come a long way since that owners manual was first written.

I used to run a 20w50 in my truck as I'd been told the same thing about oils. Started trying out Amsoil and found their 20w50 to run with less friction and a little quieter as well. Found out more about current oil tech and changed over to 0w30 Amsoil and it ran even better and was still quiet. So now I run the Amsoil 0w30 in both my '79 Chevy truck w/5.8l V8, and in my '95 540i M-Sport w/M60B40.

Try running a thinner weight synthetic on your next oil change. Though I wouldn't try it with Mobil 1 as that's the one oil I've found that's noisier than any other.

[russiankid]

This is some good info here. I get loud valvetrain noise and it takes about 1-2 seconds to build oil pressure on a cold start. Maybe this is do to me running 15w40.

[Ross]

It sounds like your oil pressure is a bit low, allowing the lifters to bleed down. A hot engine and low idle speed as when in gear exacerbate the situation. A tired pump, worn bearings can both account for this. In this event a heavier oil as your father in law suggests should quiet things down. I would use baby steps and not go directly to a 50w.
Dino oil may be all it needs in the recommended weight.
An examination of the bottom end now might reveal bearings needing replacement. Bearings alone are dirt cheap, especially compared to the cost of a crank and labor to R&R it.

[bsell]

I just spoke to the (future) father in law who is a mechanic at Ford Australia. He reckons I should be putting thicker oil in, at least 20W-50. I know that this is contradictory to the previous posts above, but is there a reason why you guys would recommend thinner oil, but other people recommending thicker? The user manual also shows pretty thick oil for my temperature / climate...

The lifters have always tapped on start up, I accept this as a characteristic of the M50, and the noise does go away after about 5 mins, my concern was that the noise would be coming back (albeit a lot quieter, but still there) during normal driving at idle. I have had the cost of lifters burn a hole in my wallet before, and I'd rather not spend the serious dosh to replace them again.

I haven't checked the oil pressure since I don't have a gauge, and the bolts seem to be fine. I'm pretty wary of running such thin oil as 5w or 0w, what oil brands do you guys recommend?

I can tell you switching to thicker oil boosts oil pressure due to it doesn't run out of the clearances in the engine as quickly as thinner oil. Kind of like old people through a turnstile, pokey. (Yes, I know this is a little mean but I might resemble the example.;))

I pretty much shut up my vanos noise at idle when hot with a move from 0W-40 to 20W-50. Probably hurt my mileage and power (not to mention the long term life of the oil pump) but the thing isn't so embarassingly noisy to drive anymore.

5 minutes to get oil pressure into the lifters is not good. I really wonder what your main bearings and oil pump look like. One or both are pretty 'loose' in clearances is my guess. Thicker oil may help but the real answer is taking a look-see.


Brian

[bsell]

This is some good info here. I get loud valvetrain noise and it takes about 1-2 seconds to build oil pressure on a cold start. Maybe this is do to me running 15w40.

I fully agree that a weight of oil more in line with the temps you are experiencing is in order. A more appropriate weight should save you some gas to boot due to less power required to push the thicker oil through the engine.

Brian

[Russell]

I went to Castrol 10w40 synthetic. I found that 5w40 would cause a warm rattle at idle. Mobile 1 0w40 made my engine sound like marbles in a tin can. 20w50 seems to also cause a start up rattle, especially with cooler weather. So 10w40 seems like a balance or tipping point..

BTW, I change my oil and fliter more often than some even with synthetic. About every 4,500 miles

[LunatiC]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your input so far. I was aware of the thinner oil characteristic that you explained below, it's pretty much the same thing that my father in law said, albeit without the turnstile analogy ;)

The 5 mins isn't really 5 mins, its more about 2 to 3. I drive the car around, I live in an estate of sorts so by the time I get to the lights that ajoins the main road when going to work every morning, the lifter noise is gone.

The father in law had a listen with the mechanical stethoscope (screwdriver to the ear), and diagnosed a dry belt for my alternator, but the alternator itself is fine. So I'm thinking either a new belt or have a look at the pulleys for the fixing of the gurgling sound, which isn't bothering me and actually the sound was there since I bought the car.

He also reckons that the bearings in my A/C condensor are making the 'ticking lifter' noise, after having a listen to that. Having said that, the tapping wasn't really evident when I was trying to show him, so next time that the tapping is easier to pick out, I'll have a listen myself with a screwdriver. Note to self: keep a long screwdriver in the boot.

Do I have to pull stuff apart to have a look at the oil pump? I had a look at the Bentleys and to pull the oil pump out seems like a real process, including dropping out the sump and pulling off ****.


I can tell you switching to thicker oil boosts oil pressure due to it doesn't run out of the clearances in the engine as quickly as thinner oil. Kind of like old people through a turnstile, pokey. (Yes, I know this is a little mean but I might resemble the example.;))

I pretty much shut up my vanos noise at idle when hot with a move from 0W-40 to 20W-50. Probably hurt my mileage and power (not to mention the long term life of the oil pump) but the thing isn't so embarassingly noisy to drive anymore.

5 minutes to get oil pressure into the lifters is not good. I really wonder what your main bearings and oil pump look like. One or both are pretty 'loose' in clearances is my guess. Thicker oil may help but the real answer is taking a look-see.

Brian

[LunatiC]

Got home and had a listen with the screwdriver and couldn't hear any ticking from the top-end, but I didn't take the rocker cover off. Should I have done so?

[bsell]

If the pulley bearing in your A/C compressor is making noise, the noise should stop immediately upon the A/C clutch engaging (the bearing turns with the compressor shaft).

So first thing in the morning, fire her up, once she ticks, hit the A/C and see if the ticking quits.

I wonder about your belt idlers and adjusters. After reading the horror stories around here about destroyed fans/clutches and radiators, I really can't see waiting too long for replacing tired belts and adjusters.

Digging into the oil pump will mean a lot of manual labor, to include dropping the oil pan:(. That is why I suggested the-much-easier-to-perform oil pressure test with a known good manual gauge.

How long does it take for your oil pressure warning light to go out after a cold start and a hot start? I take it you never see it flicker with the engine at idle and very warm (after a long highway run).

A slow to go out oil pressure warning light can be an indicator of a tired engine and/or oil pump, or it may mean the oil pressure switch is on its way out.:) That is why a gauge is your friend...

Brian

[LunatiC]

If the pulley bearing in your A/C compressor is making noise, the noise should stop immediately upon the A/C clutch engaging (the bearing turns with the compressor shaft).

So first thing in the morning, fire her up, once she ticks, hit the A/C and see if the ticking quits.

Just tried this, ticking doesn't quit. The ticking sounded louder by the time I got to work (I'm at work right now), I popped open the hood and had a listen with the screwdriver, the sound looks like it's coming from below the top end somewhere. I'm only using the screwdriver in the BMW toolkit in the boot, after work today I'll swing by a hardware shop and get an extra long screwdriver so I can listen some more deeper in the engine bay.


Digging into the oil pump will mean a lot of manual labor, to include dropping the oil pan:(. That is why I suggested the-much-easier-to-perform oil pressure test with a known good manual gauge.

Makes sense, unfortunately I don't have a manual oil pressure gauge. Do you have a picture somewhere so I know what to look for? I googled it but nearly all of the pictures that came back were for those that you stick on your dash.


How long does it take for your oil pressure warning light to go out after a cold start and a hot start? I take it you never see it flicker with the engine at idle and very warm (after a long highway run).

Never flickers once the car has started, and I see it for a split second when I start the car. And I have never in the life of owning my car, seen the OIL PRESSURE message on my check control


A slow to go out oil pressure warning light can be an indicator of a tired engine and/or oil pump, or it may mean the oil pressure switch is on its way out.:) That is why a gauge is your friend...

Definitely makes sense. The oil pressure sensor might be out, so without a manual gauge to verify, I could be running low oil pressure without me knowing.

[filip00]

you do know that you have the oil pressure....LIGHT? so the warning isn't important...if your oil pump failed completely, that light would go off for sure...the red one between the tachos (i think)....

[LunatiC]

filip00, as I said in my previous reply, it does light up as a diagnostic for a moment when the car starts. It never appears again until I start the car again.

If oil pressure sensors are failing though, how would the light know when to light up? :P I don't know how prone oil pressure sensors are to failing in the E34, whether there's just one sensor or a whole heap of them, whether they're computer controlled etc so I could be talking out of my arse (I'm a software engineer / web developer, not a mechanic)...

[bsell]

Do you think it is possible you have a tired timing chain, worn timing chain guides, and/or adjuster? If so, it should sound more like a chain dragging over something smooth or more like a rattle than a 'tick.'

Found a picture of the gauge-style I am talking about here:

http://webhubcentral.com/packard/images/maint_11.gif

Here is a kit offered by Harbor Freight:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98949

I have no idea of the quality of this kit, but the price is cheap...

Brian

[filip00]

lunatic - i understand, but i'm pretty sure your engine would already be messed up and not working if your oil pump failed....


i honestly hope it's something stupid like wrong oil...

[LunatiC]

Do you think it is possible you have a tired timing chain, worn timing chain guides, and/or adjuster? If so, it should sound more like a chain dragging over something smooth or more like a rattle than a 'tick.'

It's definitely a tick and not a rattle. The gurgling that I get is from the belt that goes around the alternator pulley (or something associated with it). Sorry for not being more mechanically inclined.

When the head gasket was replaced, my mechanic said that one of the chain guides was broken, and it was replaced. Putting my ear to the VANOS cover with a screwdriver doesn't reveal any ticking noises either, it just whirrs along.


Found a picture of the gauge-style I am talking about here:

http://webhubcentral.com/packard/images/maint_11.gif

Here is a kit offered by Harbor Freight:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98949

I have no idea of the quality of this kit, but the price is cheap...

Brian

Thanks heaps for these pics! I'll keep an eye out here in Australia. I'm going to remove the rocker cover and have a listen around as well while I look out for an oil pressure gauge. Stupid question time, it's ok to drive the car around with the missing rocker cover, yes?

[bsell]

Stupid question time, it's ok to drive the car around with the missing rocker cover, yes?

Define 'OK' for me. If you like having oil all over the engine bay and the car run like crap due to the huge vacuum leak the missing valve cover creates, then go right ahead.;)

Brian

[filip00]

rocker cover....is that the camshaft cover we're talking about? leaving engine exposed as in his signature?

that's NOT the way you wanna drive your car......you'd lose oil in a short time, plus it would stink really badly.

[LunatiC]

I meant part 13 in this diagram, I guess engine cover is a better term:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/l/m/52.png

I thought that was going to be a dumb question! I don't have the mechanical know-how to remove the cylinder head cover to leave my engine exposed like in my sig...

Feel like a pillock now :(

[filip00]

oh lol.

if you remove the valve cover, then you'll get what's in your signature. nothing difficult, just a dozen of 10mm (i think) nuts and it's off. i replaced my gasket myself, first time i did it, nothing difficult.

anyhow, about your question....yes, the plastic cover isn't necessary, you can surely drive without it, tho i honestly would put it back, *just because* ;)

[russiankid]

I drove without the cover. The cover just makes the engine look so much better under the hood.

P.S. Its 15 bolts ;).