Broke down - Total loss of engine power - Help!

[Fetch]

My e34 just broke down, first time in my life a car has done so to me!

While I was driving around, engine half warmed up, felt like one cylinder was missing, ok it does this sometimes and it clears up - not this time though. As engine is almost fully warmed up (I am not sure if this is related, just saying) there is almost no power when pressing the gas pedal, can barely rev in neutral, but it is still driving, just slowly.

Check engine light comes on at this point (will check for codes when I get back from work).

I get through an intersection and it will barely move, engine dies in neutral.

I can sorta start it back up a few times in a row (starter cranking fine), but it idles very poorly and then dies - gas pedal has almost no affect on engine speed.

I let it sit for 10 min or so and try and start it, little better, can sorta rev it up to 1500-2000 rpm, but it dies shortly.

Thinking either spark or/fuel delivery problem??

I am hoping NOT coolant in cylinders, coolant level looks same as always at first glance.

What are some first thoughts before I get stomp codes?

[Dave M]

Well, take your pic.

Crank position sensor, fuel pump relay, fuel pump, fuel filter, MAF, DME.......... without more info most here will be guessing. The fact you had intermitent issues and the car would still move, but slowly would lead me to think fuel filter/pump. when is the last time the filter(s) were changed.

This doesn't sound like a headgasket issue or anything major internally as it still starts (compression).

Then again, I don't know M60 and I won't even mention Nikasil, ooops.

Someone here will provide some real advice :D

Dave

[Fetch]

Thanks Dave, I put in new fuel filters a few months ago or so, I am afraid to look and see if the straight hose that I carefully bent 90 degrees has caused this....it is/was? working flawlessly.........


Well, take your pic.

Crank position sensor, fuel pump relay, fuel pump, fuel filter, MAF, DME.......... without more info most here will be guessing. The fact you had intermitent issues and the car would still move, but slowly would lead me to think fuel filter/pump. when is the last time the filter(s) were changed.

This doesn't sound like a headgasket issue or anything major internally as it still starts (compression).

Then again, I don't know M60 and I won't even mention Nikasil, ooops.

Someone here will provide some real advice :D

Dave

[632 Regal]

any popping or backfires? Could guess a thousand things but will say the basics, fuel or ignition.

[Fetch]

Ok, so the code is 1221, Oxygen Sensor #1

Hope the following helps...

I just played around with the car now, See picture for reference:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3489/enginesmlsmlky2.jpg

A: MAF
B: Don't know what this is
C: TPS (?)
D: Traction Control Sensor (?)

If I disconnect A and B, the car will start & run, and rev slightly. If I give it full throttle it will pop/backfire a couple times.

If I connect only A and not B, the car dies after a short period of time.
If I connect only B and not A, the idle hunts around a little.
If I connect both A and B the engine will quickly die.

In all cases, the engine runs horribly, revs very poorly, but doesn't really die on its own.

When I disconnected C the engine died immediately.

D doesn't look easily disconnect-able like the others.

Exhaust smells like raw fuel - not that type of smell when the engine is started cold and still in warm up mode, this is different...

I don't think there is a fuel problem, since playing around with the airflow equipment I can get the car to idle (but not run well at all) up to temp...

[Dave M]

B = Idle control valve (ICV). I don't suspect this, but yours is easy to get to and easy to clean out with a good dose of carb cleaner. May as well try it.

C = Throttle control valve. This senses throttle plate position and sends corresponding information to DME. I do not suspect this is your problem. You should even be able to start the engine with it disconnected (if it were running properly).

Traction control sensor. Not sure why you've highlighted this bit as it should'nt be giving you grief.

"If I connect only B and not A, the idle hunts around a little"

How does is run other than the hunting idle? This may point to a dirty MAF if it runs better than other scenarios.

At this point, I would focus on cleanoing the MAF and the ICV. Its easier to trouubleshoot the air intake than fuel, but I wouldn't discount fuel quite yet. Just because you smell fuel doesn't mean you're getting enough pressure or you injectors aren't buggered somehow.

Dave

[Ferret]

"If I connect only B and not A, the idle hunts around a little"

How does is run other than the hunting idle? This may point to a dirty MAF if it runs better than other scenarios.


If it idles, but really rough when the MAF is unplugged, there's a large chance you've got a manifold leak going on somewhere... listen down the back of the manifold for a while and try to see if you can hear a sucking noise from a busted PCV plate - other than that, very carefully check all your air carrying hoses up the front of the engine - there's a good chance one is split and/or leaking.

[Fetch]

Thanks guys!

I tested the MAF harness according to Bentley and it is OK, I will see what else I can check when I get back from class in a bit here.

I won't rule out fuel delivery problems...

With the ICV connected and idle hunting a little it still runs very poorly.



I just bought some MAF cleaner to clean the MAF, can I use this same cleaner on the ICV or should I get carb cleaner?

[Fetch]

If it idles, but really rough when the MAF is unplugged, there's a large chance you've got a manifold leak going on somewhere... listen down the back of the manifold for a while and try to see if you can hear a sucking noise from a busted PCV plate - other than that, very carefully check all your air carrying hoses up the front of the engine - there's a good chance one is split and/or leaking.

I'll check this too....man I did notice a sucking type noise, but I sorta ignored it since I took the engine sound proofing off and it is always louder with that off.....I will listen more

[infurno]

This may not be related at all but I thought I would mention it just in case. Something like that happened to me once, exact same symptoms.

The problem was that the air boot came off the throttle body.

I put it back on and everything was working fine again.

[Fetch]

Update...

Cleaning the MAF didn't help at all, still the same.

Took off ICV and cleaned it, it was way dirtier than I thought, the valve that was slowly movable by hand before, when all the crud was cleaned out, now freely bounces around when the motor is twisted on its axis, the valve comes back to a resting point of slightly open while held in my hand.

I tried to test ohms on the ICV but I have an analog ohm meter and it isn't working correctly/I can't calibrate it correctly.

After putting the super clean ICV back in, the car runs poorly but about the same all the way up to operating temperature, and is drive able, I took it on a 5 mile outing. Exhaust still sorta smells like fuel. Cleaning the ICV valve really helped, but it is still running at only half power, and revving is not smooth, feels like it is missing on a cylinder or two...

There is a 'loud' wooshing sound in the intake area, am sure I have heard it do this when working normally, but maybe I'm wrong, I will try and post a video.

Not really sure what to try next

It should be noted before my 15 min drive I unhooked the battery for awhile to clear the check engine light, the Check Engine light has NOT come back on yet....

[Tiger]

Take a carb cleaner and spray around the intake manifold area to see if engine stumbles... if yes, manifold gasket is leaking.

Another possibility is bad crank position sensor.

I'd take spark plug out and see if any of them is fouled...

Give your cat converter a whack with hammer... does it sound solid?

[Fetch]

Give your cat converter a whack with hammer... does it sound solid?

I think they sound solid, more of a solid sound than the muffler makes, about the same sound as the pipes & connector make:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANiNaZbdJk

Here is a engine starting & reving video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6qMvBNavTg
There is the suck noise if I goose the throttle open (it has always done this), and then there is a swooshing noise heard whenever the revs are dropping.

Here is a video from the exhaust, I'll admit it sounds pretty good when revved!....but you can hear the idle is 'put put put' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL37Awsjw34

[Tiger]

Do the carb cleaner test... you got it all opened up already to do this.

The other main cause of this symtom is the PCV system underneath that manifold.

[Fetch]

Do the carb cleaner test... you got it all opened up already to do this.

Ok just got done trying this, I sprayed all around the front and back seams of the manifold, as well as down where the manifold goes into each cylinder, I could not get any change in RPM :/

No CEL codes

[leicesterboy15]

What is your engine oil level like? Is it going down at all? Take the ICV off and look into the manifold if you can (can't remember if this is possible), if theres oil in there you need to take off your manifold and rebuild it with a new PCV plate. I think you may be able to take the front plate off the intake manifold without taking the whole thing off but I could be wrong, its been a while since I did mine, if you can then open it up and check for oil in the mainfold, you will need a new front gasket to seal it back up though, but they are cheap. I had a similar problem and it was my PCV plate and oil in manifold.

[632 Regal]

yeah I tried the carb cleaner trick with no results, it was leaking on the bottom sides. I would say the next item to look at is the plugs and plug boots. You might have a buttload of oil down there shorting the ignition out.

The sounds when you accelerate it are normal.


Ok just got done trying this, I sprayed all around the front and back seams of the manifold, as well as down where the manifold goes into each cylinder, I could not get any change in RPM :/

No CEL codes

[Fetch]

What is your engine oil level like? Is it going down at all? Take the ICV off and look into the manifold if you can (can't remember if this is possible), if theres oil in there you need to take off your manifold and rebuild it with a new PCV plate. I think you may be able to take the front plate off the intake manifold without taking the whole thing off but I could be wrong, its been a while since I did mine, if you can then open it up and check for oil in the mainfold, you will need a new front gasket to seal it back up though, but they are cheap. I had a similar problem and it was my PCV plate and oil in manifold.

The manifold side of the ICV was very dirty with some black stuff, I'll take it off again tomorrow in the day light.

[Fetch]

yeah I tried the carb cleaner trick with no results, it was leaking on the bottom sides. I would say the next item to look at is the plugs and plug boots. You might have a buttload of oil down there shorting the ignition out.

The sounds when you accelerate it are normal.

I will check spark plugs in the daylight tomorrow, I hope there isn't oil in there, because I just changed spark plugs a few months ago and cleaned out what little oil there was.

[Fetch]

Driver's Side Spark Plug Bank:
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/7434/pict3099cx6.jpg

Per Bentley - On the coil harnesses I tested for battery voltage at pin15 on each of the 4, got 11 volts for each one with key in ON position. I have an analog multimeter, the reading is not very accurate, I am sure this voltage is higher than 11.

The spark plugs are _new_ replaced by me almost 3 months ago.

[Fetch]

Passenger's Side Bank We have an odd man out!
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/1379/pict3101wd3.jpg

On this whole bank each of the 4 coil harnesses had oil inside the harness, I do not know how. This bank does leak oil from the valve cover the worse BUT, when I put new spark plugs in 3 months ago it was WORSE than it is now, so I am not sure??

The spark plug that is different above: its coil harness was the oilest of all four.....Here is a picture, you can see not a lot of oil, but this is what I mean by oiliest....
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7461/pict3109ir9.jpg

[Fetch]

I'm going to get electrical contract cleaner spray and clean the coil harnesses and where the harnesses plug into the coils, very carefully....

I think the oil was causing a short in the coil harness, and I am going to pray cleaning it out fixes it, and I didn't damage the coil or DME by driving 5 miles like this :(

[Tiger]

Mmm... that could be electrical grease... that is needed to prevent corrosion at the terminals.

I think your problem is PCV... just like leicesterboy15 said.

[Fetch]

Ok well it works halfway decent now, cleaning the coil harness did it!

It runs smooth in that all cylinders are firing, but the power delivery wasn't always smooth, little sporadic...

Also, any time I put the pedal all the way down to the floor it would accelerate much slower than if the pedal was right before the to the floor position....Something is happening when the computer senses full gas pedal, and performance decreases at that point, but not right up to it, if that makes sense...

After driving for 25-30 minutes it started losing some of its acceleration power so I went home, check engine light came on, this time it says 1212, Oxygen Senson 2.....before when this all happened the first time it was Oxygen Sensor 1

Does this sound more like an oxygen sensor issue now than other things?

[Fetch]

Another thing that may mean something?-> In the past 4 months there would many times be a period of 30 seconds where the car would have less power than normal in the 2,000-3,000 rpm range shortly after beginning a drive, more gas pedal would not deliver more power...I noticed it because it happened at the same part of my drive to work most days.

[Tiger]

No... it sounds more like MAF instead.

[Fetch]

No... it sounds more like MAF instead.

Do you think it's the MAF due to the non-smooth power delivery and loss of power when at WOT?

[632 Regal]

that and intake leaks, did you check the entire intake system from the air cleaner box to make sure all conected good?
Do you think it's the MAF due to the non-smooth power delivery and loss of power when at WOT?

[Tiger]

Based on the O2 error and the fact that your engine has different response after warmup. Does the car drive differently with MAF disconnected?

[Fetch]

I drove the car when it had cooled overnight, it actually didn't start normally in the morning either, took some extra cranking...
Same drivability problems as yesterday.

With MAF disconnected:

Drives a little better actually
Hesitant to rev up from idle at first press of gas pedal, but then it is 'ok'
WOT slows down acceleration
Idle bounces from 500-1,500 rpm sometimes
Could get up to 65mph relatively easily when warm
Gas Pedal works best from 0-50%, any more no real change or less performance



With MAF connected:

Drives a little worse
Idles better than above, but not as steady as it always had before this problem happened
Hard to get up to 65mph when warm, after sitting at a stoplight sometimes even hard to get up to 40mph
Gas Pedal works best from 0-50%, any more no real change or less performance


I guess it does seem related to the MAF and/or intake leaks like Tiger & Jeff have said, I will try harder to find intake leaks.

I just am confused how this problem all happened over the course of 1 minute (mainly) of driving a few days ago, and then also one of the coils was shorting out, completely unrelated!?....

[Tiger]

It does sound like a bad MAF... but like Jeff said, you got intake manifold leak and I also suspect the PCV is also done. Fix all three and everything is good again for next 10 years.

[Fetch]

Ok I tried more carb cleaner, if I spray carb cleaner on the back part of the 4 inch or so diameter circle on the back of the intake manifold (part of the PCV system...) I get a very weak vibration/horn type noise briefly....
no change in idle but that could be because it's not sucking enough in to make a difference, but the amount it is sucking in is causing something to vibrate?

[Fetch]

In regard to oil level, it is fine, I have always had an oil leak, but there is a lot of oil coating the bottom of the transmission, which could either come from the PCV, or the oil leak that I have just being blown up on the transmission, don't know.


I can't fix intake gaskets, or obviously the PCV system here at school, is this safe to drive in the mean time (I drive the car once a week) and then in 2 months a 150 mile trip home? - where I have a garage and more tools.

[632 Regal]

Have you been rebooting the computer after each repair attempt? Real easy to unplug the thing under the hood for a few minutes. I think you are having a few issues going on here and the final one was too much for the computer to compensate for. Perhaps the one missing cylinder did it.


I drove the car when it had cooled overnight, it actually didn't start normally in the morning either, took some extra cranking...
Same drivability problems as yesterday.

With MAF disconnected:

Drives a little better actually
Hesitant to rev up from idle at first press of gas pedal, but then it is 'ok'
WOT slows down acceleration
Idle bounces from 500-1,500 rpm sometimes
Could get up to 65mph relatively easily when warm
Gas Pedal works best from 0-50%, any more no real change or less performance



With MAF connected:

Drives a little worse
Idles better than above, but not as steady as it always had before this problem happened
Hard to get up to 65mph when warm, after sitting at a stoplight sometimes even hard to get up to 40mph
Gas Pedal works best from 0-50%, any more no real change or less performance


I guess it does seem related to the MAF and/or intake leaks like Tiger & Jeff have said, I will try harder to find intake leaks.

I just am confused how this problem all happened over the course of 1 minute (mainly) of driving a few days ago, and then also one of the coils was shorting out, completely unrelated!?....

[Tiger]

Edited: Replace the MAF first... that you can do easily. Lots of cheap new MAF on ebay... contact one of the seller for match to your car.... seems like you use the same MAF as the 92+ 525i MAF too... so do you have anyone near you with that car so you can test the MAF on your car?

[Ferret]

With MAF disconnected:

WOT slows down acceleration
Idle bounces from 500-1,500 rpm sometimes



This is blatantly a manifold leak - idle bounce is caused when the car cannot stabilise the amount of air flowing into the manifold.

It gets confused and starts opening and closing the ICV rapidly to correct idle movements, except you've now got a control system with k>1 meaning it's an unstable system and you're going to get non-damped oscillations in the rpm. It's technically open loop too because you've got no MAF to tell how much air is flowing into the engine, before the engine reacts to the new air mass.

WOT slowing the engine down is because the car has too much air getting into the manifold after 50% to sustain proper combustion and is leaning out.

[Tiger]

Makes alot of sense Ferret.

[Fetch]

Thanks guys you've helped a ton :) Looks like it's narrowed down to MAF, intake leaks, and PCV.

Jeff, yep I've been resetting the computer after each big change to the system.

I started it this morning, little colder than previous two morning starts, and it started ok, took maybe a split second longer than starting normally used to take. I have a video of it I can post later.

Would it be possible if I played around and wiggled the exposed end of the PCV pipe near the firewall, that the car could start running better? Because this seemed to happen last night, car had 95% of it's power back, so close to running correctly. WOT did not slow the car down as before, but it certainly didn't have the power I'm used to.

I am thinking maybe the leak involves the PCV pipe, and wiggling it closed up the leak temporarily a little bit?? Man the M60 is finicky!

I am probably going to wait until I am at home at my garage in 2 months to do any intake or PCV work if it comes to that. As for the MAF, I don't know anyone around here I could borrow from. I may buy a used one on ebay for $50 or so *shrug*

[Tiger]

Never buy used MAF.

[Fetch]

Never buy used MAF.

We must have different definitions of the word 'cheap' then, because there are no cheap new ones :p

[Tiger]

Mmm... guess it is cheaper...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-530-V8-mass-air-meter_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c39Q3 a1Q7c66Q3a4Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q 2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem310093564383QQitemZ3100935643 83

There are some guys selling new units for $99 or less on ebay... keyword bmw air mass and I thought you could email him and ask if they have one for your car.