charging woes part V "The Search for Spark"

[tim eh?]

I'm sorry for the many threads but I feel like the situation changes often enough to need a new thread. (+ I had to use the title)
That said, this is more of a 'character development' episode. Yesterday's old news is here (http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39863).
Feel free to tune out... short end is I still don't know what's up and now I need to buy a battery.


I sure hope it's the battery...

I was misreading my receipt... 11/12/2007 would be a year ago tomorrow i guess, not december 11.

So i got a lift from a buddy and took the battery into autolectra where i bought it.
Last time I went (in my car) these guys told me they'd have to keep the battery for two days to charge it properly.

So the guy mutters something about the guarantee on these being maybe only 6 months, takes it to the back room and comes back in 2 minutes and tells me 'the battery is perfect'. So I ask for a readout or more details and I start hearing what I believe to be utter BS... fun...

After a lot of what I believe to be BS (including "...if that's the case then your alternator has damaged the battery", "...well if that's the case then the battery shouldn't test good on your machine.") the boss gets involved and after about a 10 minute discussion (at times bordering on heated) he throws his hands in the air and says "fine, you want to check it yourself?" so i say "ok" and after a pause and long stare he realizes he doesn't have much choice now and we go to the back where there's this guy in a workshop full of alternators and stuff in pieces.

He pulls out this little handheld battery tester and clips it on the battery, turns it on for around 5 seconds, and then points to the analog needle, which is wobbling at around 10.5V, just barely above the 'good' line and says "see? it's good."

So I ask what kind of current that thing is drawing and get a long stare "I don't know it doesn't say... look, the wires are red, it's working."

(sigh)"nothing's written on the back or anything?"

"no"

"can i see?"

so he flips it over and there's a plate on it that reads 100A battery tester.

"So you're testing a 540 amp battery with 100 amps for 10 seconds?"

"yes"

pause

(Boss-)"You know what I'm going to do, I'm going to give you your money back for this battery because I guarantee you if I just replace it you'll just be back in 3 months with the same problem."

"Works for me..."



So anyway, whether or not the battery is my problem, I get to go shopping for a new one now so I'll find out soon enough. I don't want to mess around with the battery pan so I think I'll get the 94R one (http://www.mollbatterien.com/MollKamina/tabid/705/Default.aspx), I think that's the biggest dimensions that will fit. Maybe one with a longer guarantee this time, whew that was close! Thanks guys, without the guidance I've had here there is no way I would have been able to pursue that as far as I did. I should say I believe the boss truly believed the battery was good, and I will feel bad if it turns out to be something else.



Let's see, that's 3 alternators, 3 batteries, 2 ihkrs, 2 soon to be 3 clusterboards... I wonder what's for dessert? (...starter maybe?)



tbc...

[Tiger]

You got your money back? Cool. Stick with name brand battery. Just check if the 49 battery will fit in your battery tray. I don't see why not... what is your actual battery tray size?

[tim eh?]

You got your money back? Cool. Stick with name brand battery. Just check if the 49 battery will fit in your battery tray. I don't see why not... what is your actual battery tray size?

yep - full refund the day before the warrantee expired, howzat?

i will feel bad if it's not the problem, i already feel bad about the 3 alternators.

http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6186&stc=1&d=1226445153http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6187&stc=1&d=1226445153

as you can see, there is not a lot of room for expansion. there is zero room towards the rear (of the car, + side of battery), the holes for the bracket towards the front would fit a battery precisely 35mm longer, and I think there is room for a taller battery but not a whole lot.

really, i'm pretty sure anything even slightly bigger than the 94R would be a giant pain to fit. i don't think i have much of a choice.

i think i will buy from canadian tire... 4 year guarantee, hassle-free returns. knowing my car, i'd rather have a mediocre battery i can return than a good one i can't.


edit- wait... i'm on my 4th alternator! :D pretty soon i'm gonna stop feelin that love when i walk in the door...


i really don't want to do a battery pan refit...

[Ross]

I'm sorry for the many threads but I feel like the situation changes often enough to need a new thread. (+ I had to use the title)
That said, this is more of a 'character development' episode. Yesterday's old news is here (http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39863).
Feel free to tune out... short end is I still don't know what's up and now I need to buy a battery.


I sure hope it's the battery...

I was misreading my receipt... 11/12/2007 would be a year ago tomorrow i guess, not december 11.

So i got a lift from a buddy and took the battery into autolectra where i bought it.
Last time I went (in my car) these guys told me they'd have to keep the battery for two days to charge it properly.

So the guy mutters something about the guarantee on these being maybe only 6 months, takes it to the back room and comes back in 2 minutes and tells me 'the battery is perfect'. So I ask for a readout or more details and I start hearing what I believe to be utter BS... fun...

After a lot of what I believe to be BS (including "...if that's the case then your alternator has damaged the battery", "...well if that's the case then the battery shouldn't test good on your machine.") the boss gets involved and after about a 10 minute discussion (at times bordering on heated) he throws his hands in the air and says "fine, you want to check it yourself?" so i say "ok" and after a pause and long stare he realizes he doesn't have much choice now and we go to the back where there's this guy in a workshop full of alternators and stuff in pieces.

He pulls out this little handheld battery tester and clips it on the battery, turns it on for around 5 seconds, and then points to the analog needle, which is wobbling at around 10.5V, just barely above the 'good' line and says "see? it's good."

So I ask what kind of current that thing is drawing and get a long stare "I don't know it doesn't say... look, the wires are red, it's working."

(sigh)"nothing's written on the back or anything?"

"no"

"can i see?"

so he flips it over and there's a plate on it that reads 100A battery tester.

"So you're testing a 540 amp battery with 100 amps for 10 seconds?"

"yes"

pause

(Boss-)"You know what I'm going to do, I'm going to give you your money back for this battery because I guarantee you if I just replace it you'll just be back in 3 months with the same problem."

"Works for me..."



So anyway, whether or not the battery is my problem, I get to go shopping for a new one now so I'll find out soon enough. I don't want to mess around with the battery pan so I think I'll get the 94R one (http://www.mollbatterien.com/MollKamina/tabid/705/Default.aspx), I think that's the biggest dimensions that will fit. Maybe one with a longer guarantee this time, whew that was close! Thanks guys, without the guidance I've had here there is no way I would have been able to pursue that as far as I did. I should say I believe the boss truly believed the battery was good, and I will feel bad if it turns out to be something else.



Let's see, that's 3 alternators, 3 batteries, 2 ihkrs, 2 soon to be 3 clusterboards... I wonder what's for dessert? (...starter maybe?)



tbc...
(Boss-)"You know what I'm going to do, I'm going to give you your money back for this battery because I guarantee you if I just replace it you'll just be back in 3 months with the same problem."

Translation: We haven't a clue what we are doing, are accustomed to taking the customers money without accountability and are not clever enough to ******** our way out of this. It is preferrable to refund your money rather than admit this.

As much as I loathe chain auto parts stores auto zone has a decent product and warranty. Wal Mart's battery is also a good one but selection is very limited.

[Paul in NZ]

Your ten minute trip with all your electrical loads would tax any charging system..its that simple .Get the best battery you can get that is the proper size.See if you get the 150 amp alternator too next time:D

[tim eh?]

(Boss-)"You know what I'm going to do, I'm going to give you your money back for this battery because I guarantee you if I just replace it you'll just be back in 3 months with the same problem."

Translation: We haven't a clue what we are doing, are accustomed to taking the customers money without accountability and are not clever enough to ******** our way out of this. It is preferrable to refund your money rather than admit this.

As much as I loathe chain auto parts stores auto zone has a decent product and warranty. Wal Mart's battery is also a good one but selection is very limited.

I agree with your translation, I don't hold it against them and I hope the problem really is the battery.

But I think it was ridiculous that first they say they need it for 2 days (!) to charge it properly for the test, then when I said (this is the first time I was there) no way they said maybe in four hours but they'd be happy to do it, and then when I actually get a ride and go there to take them up on it they don't even spend 5 minutes with it. And then they tell me I don't know what I'm talking about there's no way it's the battery but they can't even tell me how many amps they tested it with.

here's a good bit i forgot...

Boss- "This is the tester the company sends us." :D

LOL it was a motomaster! (generic canadian tire, probably your autozone equivalent)

edit - here's a pic of the exact tester i found on their website
http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6255&stc=1&d=1226450832

[Tiger]

Heck, I got a digital version one of that. As for WalMart battery... don't... the warranty and pro-rate are non existent.

[tim eh?]

check out this thread (http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10786)

and this one (http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33200)

first op stopped being active just afterwards, second op hasn't been around since june. (...d'oh)


Well after all this, it turns out i am a moron. The belt was on wrong, going over the idler pulley next to the alternator instead of under it. The belt was loose, but not squealing. It is also much easier to get the belt on this way :p If anyone has a random problem like this, make sure to check the belt routing, it is far too easy to overlook!
ok... wtf... belt routing? omg... i made my mechanic check it even though he didn't want to. i have installed 3 alternators badly? hmmm.... guess i won't make that pit crew... this is all speculation mind you...

i had actually seen this thread before but hadn't come across the answer it is well-hidden. ferret clued me in...

must check belt... omg that would be so unbeleivable... (but awesome at the same time) i think i will also triple check my battery cables for ' crunchiness ' :D

[Tiger]

Tim... gotta stop this problem!

1. Belt tensioner fault. Not tight enough would cause problem.

2. Bad ground cable at the battery and starter.

3. Bad alternator... Eliminated

4. Bad battery... Will be eliminated

5. Bad starter...

6. Bad fusible link?...

[Ferret]

Hmm, I was wondering if you were going to go for a 'search for spark' title or not with your next thread.

If a 100A tester is just wobbling on the good line there could be a problem. Though! I'd be pretty sure its guage is calibrated against specific voltages at 100A pull.

Regardless you're making some progress now.

When you go shopping for a new battery, here's a tip.

The 35mm difference in the battery sizes needs *no* adjustment, you just push the locking plate upto the next bolt hole. When you're shopping for your next battery unbolt the battery tray out of your engine bay and take it with you! (It's like 2 or 3 10/13mm bolts) The guys wherever you go will be happy to let you upsell yourself to a bigger battery :D

[bubba966]

Your ten minute trip with all your electrical loads would tax any charging system..its that simple .Get the best battery you can get that is the proper size.See if you get the 150 amp alternator too next time:D

+1

Your battery was on it's way out because it isn't getting a good enough charge. The voltage dropping like it is when you've got that many things electrical running is telling you that the alternator isn't putting out enough juice to run everything and charge the battery.

Get yourself a good battery (like an Interstate, or anything else with at least a 7 year warranty). And get the bigger alternator. Shouldn't have any problems then. That battery you had only had a 1 year warranty? And I thought that a 3 year warranty battery wasn't worth buying. Didn't know someone makes/sells a 1 year warranty battery...

Interstate is listing this battery as a fitment for an '89 525
http://www.interstatebatteries.com/estore/search.asp?details=1&mscssid=4RMLLVERXX5M8JKEAFB52T7D3A770BS4&N=21+4294574641+2147384755+4294574639+4294574640&js=1&part_number=MTP%2D91&part_desc=Mega%2DTron+Plus+%2D+85+Months+%2D+700+C CA&Nu=Part+Number&Ns=product+Type%7C0%7C%7CRank%7C1

This is the size for the seat mounted batteries
http://www.interstatebatteries.com/estore/search.asp?details=1&mscssid=4RMLLVERXX5M8JKEAFB52T7D3A770BS4&N=21+4294574641+2147384749+4294574438+4293565105&js=1&part_number=MTP%2D93&part_desc=Mega%2DTron+Plus+%2D+85+Months+%2D+850+C CA&Nu=Part+Number&Ns=product+Type%7C0%7C%7CRank%7C1

And the MTP-93 is a bit bigger than the MTP-91 that's listed for your car. So I'd guess that a battery that's the size of the MTP-91 is about the biggest size that you can stuff under the hood. And it lists the dimensions on the links so you can know what size to pick up should you not go for an MTP-91.

Johnson Controls makes Interstate/Costco/Sears/Autozone batteries (and probably a few others I don't know about). So any battery you pick up from them with a 85-100 month warranty is going to be an excellent battery. I just put a new battery in my M-Sport (on it's 13th birthday even!). Went with the Interstate branded MTP-93 (85 month) from a local Firestone for $99. Costco unfortunately doesn't have that size. And the Sears 100 month model was $140, so didn't go with that as it cost 40% more than the MTP-93, yet didn't provide 40% longer life.

Wonder how complicated it is to retrofit the battery location to the trunk?

[Ross]

+1

Your battery was on it's way out because it isn't getting a good enough charge. The voltage dropping like it is when you've got that many things electrical running is telling you that the alternator isn't putting out enough juice to run everything and charge the battery.

Get yourself a good battery (like an Interstate, or anything else with at least a 7 year warranty). And get the bigger alternator. Shouldn't have any problems then. That battery you had only had a 1 year warranty? And I thought that a 3 year warranty battery wasn't worth buying. Didn't know someone makes/sells a 1 year warranty battery...

Interstate is listing this battery as a fitment for an '89 525
http://www.interstatebatteries.com/estore/search.asp?details=1&mscssid=4RMLLVERXX5M8JKEAFB52T7D3A770BS4&N=21+4294574641+2147384755+4294574639+4294574640&js=1&part_number=MTP%2D91&part_desc=Mega%2DTron+Plus+%2D+85+Months+%2D+700+C CA&Nu=Part+Number&Ns=product+Type%7C0%7C%7CRank%7C1

This is the size for the seat mounted batteries
http://www.interstatebatteries.com/estore/search.asp?details=1&mscssid=4RMLLVERXX5M8JKEAFB52T7D3A770BS4&N=21+4294574641+2147384749+4294574438+4293565105&js=1&part_number=MTP%2D93&part_desc=Mega%2DTron+Plus+%2D+85+Months+%2D+850+C CA&Nu=Part+Number&Ns=product+Type%7C0%7C%7CRank%7C1

And the MTP-93 is a bit bigger than the MTP-91 that's listed for your car. So I'd guess that a battery that's the size of the MTP-91 is about the biggest size that you can stuff under the hood. And it lists the dimensions on the links so you can know what size to pick up should you not go for an MTP-91.

Johnson Controls makes Interstate/Costco/Sears/Autozone batteries (and probably a few others I don't know about). So any battery you pick up from them with a 85-100 month warranty is going to be an excellent battery. I just put a new battery in my M-Sport (on it's 13th birthday even!). Went with the Interstate branded MTP-93 (85 month) from a local Firestone for $99. Costco unfortunately doesn't have that size. And the Sears 100 month model was $140, so didn't go with that as it cost 40% more than the MTP-93, yet didn't provide 40% longer life.

Wonder how complicated it is to retrofit the battery location to the trunk?


I'll no longer buy Interstate because of the warranty policy.
A failed battery is pro-rated as any other, the difference with Interstate(and Sears as I remember) is that the basis used to calculate is a percentage against full retail. If the battery is more than a year old the warranty is worthless as a new battery can be bought over the counter anywhere at a discount for same or less than the "adjusted" price with a warranty claim.
Wal mart and such(Autozone?) use the actual sale price to calculate an adjustment.
I know this from personal experience

[bubba966]

I'll no longer buy Interstate because of the warranty policy.
A failed battery is pro-rated as any other, the difference with Interstate(and Sears as I remember) is that the basis used to calculate is a percentage against full retail. If the battery is more than a year old the warranty is worthless as a new battery can be bought over the counter anywhere at a discount for same or less than the "adjusted" price with a warranty claim.
Wal mart and such(Autozone?) use the actual sale price to calculate an adjustment.
I know this from personal experience

Not sure what your saying. I paid $99 for my MTP-93. Full retail on it is listed as $124.99-$149.99. So if they're using MSRP rather than the $99 I paid for it to use as the basis of replacement cost then it sounds like you'd be coming out ahead.

Like I said, I'm not getting what you're trying to say...

[Ross]

Not sure what your saying. I paid $99 for my MTP-93. Full retail on it is listed as $124.99-$149.99. So if they're using MSRP rather than the $99 I paid for it to use as the basis of replacement cost then it sounds like you'd be coming out ahead.

Like I said, I'm not getting what you're trying to say...


My example went something like this;
72 mo battery failed at 18 mos.
Retail price of battery was ~$150, let's call it $144 for simplicity sake.
$144 divided by 72 mos. is $2/mo.
The battery was in use for 18 mos. so a $36 dollar adjustment was offered against a $144 battery that can be bought outright for ~$100.
Didn't make much sense to me.

[Tiger]

I hated Interstate batteries for decades... they never last and they are super super expensive.

[bubba966]

My example went something like this;
72 mo battery failed at 18 mos.
Retail price of battery was ~$150, let's call it $144 for simplicity sake.
$144 divided by 72 mos. is $2/mo.
The battery was in use for 18 mos. so a $36 dollar adjustment was offered against a $144 battery that can be bought outright for ~$100.
Didn't make much sense to me.

Ahh, I see now what you're saying. I'm used to the in use for under 3 years 100% of price refunded, 3-4 year in use 80% refunded, 4-5 year use 60% refunded, etc. type of pro-rating. Which would make using MSRP as the cost to pro-rate against much better than the purchase price.

I've used Johnson Controls batteries for around a decade and never had problems with them if they were used properly. Only reason I ever returned one was because my truck had sat for months and the battery died. So I'd take it back and get a new one.

So I wasn't so worried about the warranty as I'm used to getting good product from Johnson Controls. Not to mention every other BMW owner around my area has had good luck with them as well. The M-Sport gets 30+ minutes of driving at least twice a day, so I'm not worried about killing the battery due to lack of charging.

[bubba966]

I hated Interstate batteries for decades... they never last and they are super super expensive.

Well, Johnson Controls has made Interstate Batteries for at least a few years now. And Johnson Controls has made good batteries in my experience over the last decade or so.

I doubt Johnson Controls always made the Interstates. Makes me wonder when they started making them for Interstate as it sounds like your experience with Interstate batteries is from some time back.

[Tiger]

Yes, I stopped buying Interstate since 2001 For the E34, two batteries died within 2 years. Auozone battery after this... one died within 2 years but this current one is going beyond 2 years now.

We had Interstates since 1980's... some last long but in the 90's they were dying left and right in no time.

[tim eh?]

Hmm, I was wondering if you were going to go for a 'search for spark' title or not with your next thread.

If a 100A tester is just wobbling on the good line there could be a problem. Though! I'd be pretty sure its guage is calibrated against specific voltages at 100A pull.

Regardless you're making some progress now.

When you go shopping for a new battery, here's a tip.

The 35mm difference in the battery sizes needs *no* adjustment, you just push the locking plate upto the next bolt hole. When you're shopping for your next battery unbolt the battery tray out of your engine bay and take it with you! (It's like 2 or 3 10/13mm bolts) The guys wherever you go will be happy to let you upsell yourself to a bigger battery :D



yeah... re: title i do get carried away sometimes don't i...
i blame it entirely on the car that drove me mental.... sorry.


I am having trouble buying a battery. :D Canadian Tire won't sell me one under warranty because they don't stock the size officially listed for my car, so whatever they sell me becomes a 'non-conforming' battery.

Only major store that I have found that has a size91 is NAPA at $160(!), 700cca.


Still looking around but that is the best bet so far :(.

Yes, the locking plate moves to the next holes which are 35mm from the other ones, and that is about the extent I want to 'modify' anything. The battery pan is welded to the chassis, and even if I made a custom one there is hardly any space to work with anyway. I measured height again and I don't think I can go up in height more than a cm.

So I can put a 91 in at 175mmx175mmx280mm under warranty or a size 92 if i can find it at 175mmx175mmx317mm probably not under warranty.






Tim... gotta stop this problem!

1. Belt tensioner fault. Not tight enough would cause problem.

2. Bad ground cable at the battery and starter.

3. Bad alternator... Eliminated

4. Bad battery... Will be eliminated

5. Bad starter...

6. Bad fusible link?...

agreed... good list... must get battery first... i was counting on a buddy to bring over a spare bat he has last night... d'oh! bicycles, 5am and -2'c are a bad combination!

actually i think i'll forget shopping around dammit, i'm off to napa to get the 91.

btw if it's the tensioner my bmw specialist mechanic screwed it up too so i won't feel so bad, AND i got him to doublecheck it when he tested the battery. belt is tight at least :D