Broke again, towed to dealer, they say maf

[Fetch]

hey guys, car stopped running again, I couldn't mess with it any more, had it towed to the dealer in town here.

They decided it wouldn't run at all due to spark plugs, claimed mine with less than 1000 miles were fouled, which is possible after it broke down this second time, but I was not able to look at them in person and confirm this.

So I let them put new spark plugs in at great cost, and so they could then continue diagnosing.

Whole week went by they couldn't get it to run at all with new spark plugs, now they say they got it to run long enough to get a mass air flow sensor computer code, a code I never got while working on the car, but the car's problems could easily be MAF as many suggested on this forum.


They want to put a new MAF in for $400 bucks. In addtition to $300 for spark plugs and diagnosing fees, in addition to the $130 I paid to get it towed to the dealer.

It takes me 35 seconds to replace a MAF, should I just order one on ebay and put it in myself? Or for $200-300 net additional cost have them do it and have my car supposedly finished and working...

I've never delt with a dealer ever before, don't I have a right to call BS on their part if they charge me for stuff that ends up not fixing the car?

just want to hear your guys' thoughts once more...

[DanDombrowski]

Depends on the dealer, but more than likely, your economic misfortune is none of their concern. By that, I mean that if you throw $400 at a MAF, and it doesn't work, don't expect them to care that they just blew $400.

Now, they MAY be able to put a MAF in, and if it doesn't fix it, to pull it out and return it, but most parts suppliers won't take returns on electrical components, especially MAFs. Depends on the shop. I'd at least ask.

I would be very wary of continuing with the dealer, sorry I don't have any better advice. It sounds like they just want to throw parts at it until you give up, or they get lucky.

[Tiger]

Let them do the work... They will have to eat their own bill if your car stopped working again.

[DanDombrowski]

They should, but often do not, or at least try very hard not to. I wouldn't rush in with $400 under the assumption that its a free guess.

[632 Regal]

the stealer is like doctors, they will profit from adding or removing parts weather it fixes the problem or not. Luck of the draw. Going to the dealer usually means someone has too much money to try or has reached the end of their rope and gave up trying. 300 bux for plugs pretty much says it all.

Good luck whatever you choose to do.

[Ross]

Sad state of affairs this is. I don't mind paying(okay, a little)$100+/hr for expert diagnosis but when they just start throwing parts at it they don't deserve a dime. A monkey can change parts until the problem is cured.
Chances are you were flooded and that's why they changed the plugs. I'm not sure what book time is for that operation but even if you figure $10 each for plugs that leaves $220 in labor. I can do it <30 minutes while chatting with the neighbor and drinking a beer.
Our cars predate the majority of the current dealer "techs" so there is little expert advice available from a BMW store these days. There is also little scrutiny on customer pay jobs, so the house is happy as a clam to let some jr mechanic guess all day on your parts tab. Many customers are pleased just to have a problem resolved and never know how much unneccessary work they have paid for. The repair files for some of the cars that have passed through my hands speak very well to this.

[Ross]

And never forget some wisdom passed on to me from a very worldly former colleague.
Half of doctors graduated in the botttom half of their class.
Makes fixing your car a less scary thought.

[winfred]

V8s do seem to consume maf's and if the mixture is as such that it fowls plugs it is possible, a fun one on v8s to catch though is a dieing fuel pump, it'll make enough pressure to make you think it works but not enough to run the damn thing, had a 740il e32 come from the dealer diagnosed with a bad nic short block that just needed a pump :D

[Fetch]

V8s do seem to consume maf's and if the mixture is as such that it fowls plugs it is possible, a fun one on v8s to catch though is a dieing fuel pump, it'll make enough pressure to make you think it works but not enough to run the damn thing, had a 740il e32 come from the dealer diagnosed with a bad nic short block that just needed a pump :D

They can't get it to run at all with the MAF disconnected.

They said it will cost me nothing more if they put a new MAF in and it doesn't fix it (no addtl labor or parts charge).

If it was only the MAF the car should run poorly right?, but it doesn't run at all.......

I asked if they tested fuel pressure (this was a week ago) and he said they did, but who knows what they actually did, and if the above example is happening then they wouldn't have noticed the fuel pump was going bad...

[Black 535i]

You could try a different shop. A $100.00 tow charge would be cheaper than the let's hop ethis works tries at the dealer.

[Fetch]

Bloomington Illinois.

There are no specialty/BMW indies around here that I know of....

I was hoping the dealer would be better/quicker at diagnosing than I myself am.

[BMWCCA1]

I think you've already invested too much at this dealership to pull out now. Is it a franchise BMW store? That's what I assume when people say "dealer". If so, I'm assuming there's probably a BMW rebuild available for the MAF and that's the price they're quoting you. The good news would be some of those parts have quite long warranties and they're more likely to cover you if something else happens as soon as you leave with your repaired car. But maybe that's just from my experience actually working at a reputable BMW store for twenty years.

Good luck. Keep us informed.

[Fetch]

I think you've already invested too much at this dealership to pull out now. Is it a franchise BMW store?

This is how I am starting to feel (right or wrong), now that they say I won't be charged for a MAF that doesn't fix the problem. I have not given them the OK try it yet, very soon though... Yes it is a real deal BMW store.

[Bill R.]

Nikasil motor.... Does it spin over real fast, like there's no resistance at all when cranking it? Some of the nikasil motors that failed , just quit running ,or started idling roughly and then wouldn't restart. A squirt of oil in each cylinder was usually enough to get the compression back up to the point that they would start.. Did the dealer do a leakdown or at least rule out a compression problem?

[BMWCCA1]

This is how I am starting to feel (right or wrong), now that they say I won't be charged for a MAF that doesn't fix the problem. I have not given them the OK try it yet, very soon though... Yes it is a real deal BMW store.Now that I see where you are located, next time get to know Ben Thongsai. I think this is the address for the new shop:
B & D Automotive
1500 Madison St.
Maywood, IL 60153
(708) 450-0300- shop

[Fetch]

Nikasil motor.... Does it spin over real fast, like there's no resistance at all when cranking it? Some of the nikasil motors that failed , just quit running ,or started idling roughly and then wouldn't restart. A squirt of oil in each cylinder was usually enough to get the compression back up to the point that they would start.. Did the dealer do a leakdown or at least rule out a compression problem?

When it broke down this second time it had been cruising perfectly @ 65mph cruise control for 2 hours, I gave it some gas, no downshifting, and it barfed, quit making power and was done.

I did not know nikasil problems could happen that quickly, that with my high mileage I had not really been considering it as a problem, maybe I should.

Car seemed to crank the same speed it always had far as I could tell anyways, just seemed like it wasn't firing or something.

I don't know if the dealer did a leak down test, if I ask them I'm sure it'll cost a ton to do.

[Fetch]

Now that I see where you are located, next time get to know Ben Thongsai. I think this is the address for the new shop:
B & D Automotive
1500 Madison St.
Maywood, IL 60153
(708) 450-0300- shop

Thank you, I will keep an eye out for it, but that's near Chicago/1 hour from my home, so no good for my current location at college 2 hours away.

[BMWCCA1]

Thank you, I will keep an eye out for it, but that's near Chicago/1 hour from my home, so no good for my current location at college 2 hours away.
That's your decision, but I guarantee he wouldn't have the balls to charge you $300 for spark plugs and then tell you it still won't run. ;)

[632 Regal]

Here we go!

When it broke down this second time it had been cruising perfectly @ 65mph cruise control for 2 hours, I gave it some gas, no downshifting, and it barfed, quit making power and was done.
Either you lost spark or fuel and it quit. Wet plugs leads me to think electrical. Probably no spark... Maybe the CPS gave it up.

[Bill R.]

nikasil motor.... and it would spin over real fast. M50's will sometimes do that where you try to start the car in the morning and it spins fast and won't start, pull the plugs and they are flooded, dry the plugs off and it usually fires right up. If you remove the maf you should be able to spray ether or car starting fluid into the manifold and get it to run if its a fuel problem. if it won't fire then its a spark problem

[Fetch]

Here we go!

Either you lost spark or fuel and it quit. Wet plugs leads me to think electrical. Probably no spark... Maybe the CPS gave it up.

Don't know if the spark plugs were ever wet. Dealer only said 'fouled' over the phone to me.

I tested the CPS to be in proper range a week ago. But that was a week ago..

[Black 535i]

...but none down that way, sorry. Good luck.

[ThoreauHD]

Most expensive spark plug that I could find for my 530 were the denso iridium's at 8 bucks a piece times 8. The difference between $70 and $300 is quite a bit. The MAF at $400 sounds right though. The spark plugs... just insane.

Might want to contact your windy city bmwcca folks and ask them who they recommend for a bmw indy in your area. http://www.windycitybmw.com/Contacts/Contacts.aspx
I'm not familiar with the area myself.

[Mordan]

next time you have an issue.. if you have room, buy a new small diesel car, park your BMW, take the time to test and repair everything yourself in the garage. You will actually invest to be able to run your BMW forever yourself. learn it.

I mean WHY the hell losing 300 bucks for changing sparks plugs,, you can do it for free after work. with the extra saved 250 bucks, you can buy new ignition coil and a **** load of seals and hoses.

open the valve cover..

buy the equipment for leak down and compression test... buy a compressor and you are up and running debugging your engine.

[BMWCCA1]

next time you have an issue.. if you have room, buy a new small diesel car, park your BMW, take the time to test and repair everything yourself in the garage. You will actually invest to be able to run your BMW forever yourself. learn it.

I mean WHY the hell losing 300 bucks for changing sparks plugs,, you can do it for free after work. with the extra saved 250 bucks, you can buy new ignition coil and a **** load of seals and hoses.

open the valve cover..

buy the equipment for leak down and compression test... buy a compressor and you are up and running debugging your engine.Sage advice from someone who's probably never seen a BMW V8 engine up close! ;)

First of all, we have darn few small diesel cars in this county, most of which currently sell for more than a 530i V8 E34. Second, just replacing plugs can be a daunting task on these cars for the uninitiated. Valve covers are a real pain in the ass. This ain't your garden-variety 4-cylinder BMW motor!

I tell people looking for reliable BMW transportation to simply walk away from the V8s. But the original poster already has his, so we're helping him deal with it. Very little on these engines is easy to do yourself unless you're a pretty experienced wrench, or just love to attack stuff with reckless abandon. We now know even the dealer couldn't fix it just by replacing plugs and they are assumed to have the skill, knowledge, and diagnostic tools that would make repair easy. Even so, seems like they're just throwing parts at it and crossing fingers.

[Ferret]

Sage advice from someone who's probably never seen a BMW V8 engine up close! ;)

First of all, we have darn few small diesel cars in this county, most of which currently sell for more than a 530i V8 E34. Second, just replacing plugs can be a daunting task on these cars for the uninitiated. Valve covers are a real pain in the ass. This ain't your garden-variety 4-cylinder BMW motor!

I tell people looking for reliable BMW transportation to simply walk away from the V8s.

Bah, V8's arent that hard work... you just need to have a wit about you for realising most stuff on the car doesnt just *come apart* without some thought. They shoehorned the engine in, you cant expect it to just take itself apart for you while you watch :)

The V8 so far has been my favourite car to work on - most stuff is in logical places and not that difficult to take apart - you just have to work slowly and take your time looking at stuff before you begin. I hear a lot of people yelling about how 'difficult' it is to whip off the intake manifolds on these cars, but the reality is it's quite easy :(

[Tiger]

Agreed... this V8 is not that hard to work on at all. Even the waterpump job on this car is fairly easy.

[BMWCCA1]

I said for the uninitiated. As in inexperienced. For the guy who needs a Bentley to figure out how tight to torque a spin-on oil filter. Any car that needs its oil-pump bolts tightened as regular maintenance is just not for everyone. ;)

Anyone who finds them easier to work on than Mordan's E30, raise your hand. Even replacing a power-steering hose is far more complicated than it should be. Face it, modern BMW's aren't really designed with the do-it-yourself-er in mind or, for that matter, with future repairs in mind at all.

[Ross]

So, what happened?

[Mordan]

Sage advice from someone who's probably never seen a BMW V8 engine up close! ;)

First of all, we have darn few small diesel cars in this county, most of which currently sell for more than a 530i V8 E34. Second, just replacing plugs can be a daunting task on these cars for the uninitiated. Valve covers are a real pain in the ass. This ain't your garden-variety 4-cylinder BMW motor!

I tell people looking for reliable BMW transportation to simply walk away from the V8s. But the original poster already has his, so we're helping him deal with it. Very little on these engines is easy to do yourself unless you're a pretty experienced wrench, or just love to attack stuff with reckless abandon. We now know even the dealer couldn't fix it just by replacing plugs and they are assumed to have the skill, knowledge, and diagnostic tools that would make repair easy. Even so, seems like they're just throwing parts at it and crossing fingers.

BMWCCA1, I have never seen one. You are right. :) The engine I know the best is the M20 for having replaced the cylinder head myself without a garage and a roof. It took an awful lot of time but I did it and a proud rookie to have done that work. it is now twice more enjoyable driving it.

My goal is to be able to maintain every single part of my car, except changing the tyres and maybe the big paint jobs. I think that's what people here should aim at, instead of parading like hens with big wheels.

yea probably the V8 is difficult. Yea the E30 is easy as holding candle stick. But in the DIY book easy and well designed is good. Electronics is crap.

Give me a V8 in a E34 chassis (my best), a technical book and a garage with a roof and I will gadly work on it.

I just wanted to shake the ego of the OP and maybe he will try. but you got to be totally honest with yourself. are you smart enough... are you commited to your car... are you ready to die with her? ;) I mean if you are the type of guy who like to change cars every 4 years. don't do it. i'm talking about a life time investment. it is not worth learning your V8, if you are not ready to do a complete engine rebuild down the line.

it is even more necessary to do it yourself as the car ages, the dealers become increasingly stupid because they never see those cars anymore. the knowledge is lost. last time I showed my 518 to the official BMW dealer, the SOB couldn't even see there was a headgasket problem. pathetic.

[BMWCCA1]

the dealers become increasingly stupid because they never see those cars anymore. the knowledge is lost. last time I showed my 518 to the official BMW dealer, the SOB couldn't even see there was a headgasket problem. pathetic.I happened to be in the service department of the largest BMW dealer in Washington, DC, a few years back when a traveler in a nice '73 2002 brought his car in with a problem. They told him "no problem" they could check it out for him. I wanted to warn him but that wouldn't have been very businesslike. Then I watched as they couldn't even open the hood, trying from the front of the car. What can I say?

[Fetch]

For all of you who keep misreading, the $300 for spark plugs was including the diagnosing fee, albeit worthless. Just set it aside for now please, thanks.

I have put spark plugs in the car, I know how much it costs, and I know how long it takes.

This forum collectively wanted me to throw parts and gaskets at the car as well, so I'm not much worse off yet, I don't have any time to throw parts at the car, so that time is worth something to me.

[632 Regal]

I will get rid of the car or die before I replace this thing... unless I really need to as in it bursts or something :D


Even replacing a power-steering hose is far more complicated than it should be.

[BMWCCA1]

This forum collectively wanted me to throw parts and gaskets at the car as well, so I'm not much worse off yet, I don't have any time to throw parts at the car, so that time is worth something to me.

You make a good point, and one I was contemplating when replacing the wax ring on a 30-year-old toilet the other day. After three trips to the local hardware store (thank God we still have such a thing, and they're great!) I was wondering what a plumber would have charged. All done and working fine now, thanks. What an archaic system of connection. But it seems to work! ;)

My time is apparently worthless. :D

[Ross]

So what happened?

[Fetch]

So what happened?

MAF didn't fix it, no charge. They caught the fuel pump not making pressure (like winfred's example above).
I bought a spare fuel pump from you (Ross) 6 months ago, and never bothered to try it 2 weeks ago like one of you guys told me to. Yet another valuable life lesson for me....

Anyways,
They are getting a new fuel pump tomorrow, I'll let you guys know if that really does fix it or not!

[Tiger]

Mmm... makes me wonder if I should do pre-emptive strike and change out my fuel pump before it craps out. Fuel mileage is down a bit... engine a bit rough...

So you got a new MAF for free?

[Fetch]

Mmm... makes me wonder if I should do pre-emptive strike and change out my fuel pump before it craps out. Fuel mileage is down a bit... engine a bit rough...

So you got a new MAF for free?

You can buy the fuel pump from me I bought from Ross and never used :)

And no, no free MAF, they put my old one back in :)


And remember, not fixed yet -- it ain't over till the fat lady sings!

[Tiger]

Yeah... I'll wait to see what they changed... I saw Bosch fuel pump for sale... $120... a far cry from $300 everyone else was asking. I only want new pump if that is what they did to fix your car.

[Ross]

You can buy the fuel pump from me I bought from Ross and never used :)

And no, no free MAF, they put my old one back in :)


And remember, not fixed yet -- it ain't over till the fat lady sings!
Time to get it out of there. They had their free shot. They should have known it wasn't the MAF, even us here knew that it will run without having one at all.
Pay for plugs, tell them to stuff "diagnostic fee" and move to someone who knows these cars or it's gonna get expensive. Sorry for preaching, just don't like seeing this.
BTW, I could use that pump now if you don't use it. Give me a call, okay.

[Fetch]

Got the car back, fuel pump was it, all driveability problems seem to be gone.
Will see how it starts tomorrow morning when it's below 20 degrees.

Sure you can have the pump back Ross, I'll be in town tomorrow (knock on plastic wood trim)

I know you all want to know what it cost, message me if you want, it's guessable from this thread.

[Tiger]

Wow... fuel pump eh? That would be $398 for the pump... plus parts like seals... labor + your diagnostic and plugs... Mmm... $1000 total bill?

[ric5s]

I now have a fuel pressure gauge installed inline under the bonnet to monitor the fuel system for any issues in the fuel system. $AU38.00 for a early warning system, cheaper than a garage playing find the fault.
Ric5s

[Ross]

glad it's sorted and hopefully the dealer did right by you. I think Winfred made the call on the pump.
Sending a PM to buy that pump back. Has it appreciated?

[632 Regal]

Lmao

Sending A Pm To Buy That Pump Back. Has It Appreciated?