Cylinder 2, 50psi... let the party start.

[joshuagore]

After replacing a bad fuel pump and driving the car for about a week my problems came back. Naturally I assumed it was fueling related as it felt eerily similar to my fuel pump problem.

Rough under acceleration except now its also rough during no load as well. Ruh roh.

I spent the day at the junk yard getting myself a pleasant stock of 'test' parts which would act as substitutes of questionable quality to help diagnose my problem(s). I couldn't justify buying a new cap/rotor, fpr, cps, injectors on a hunch, so $30 in junkyard parts might help (that included a glove box latch, door lock actuator, and body computer).

My first step was to remove any crap plugs I was using and replace them with NGK's. While I was doing that I decided to test the compression. I ended up finding cylinder 2 down to 45-50 psi. I immediately thought rings, but then I pressurized the cylinder with the valves closed only to find all the air I was pumping in the cylinder coming out my exhaust not my dip stick, or timing cover like I expected with rings.

So the project will begin. I will post pics in this thread. This car doesn't have to be my daily driver, but with my Subaru up for sale it would be nice not to put anymore miles on it. Who knows if the Suby sells I might be more tempted to do more than just valve/ring...... maybe positive crankcase pressure is in my future.

:)

Josh

[632 Regal]

if lash is too tight could hold the valve open.

[joshuagore]

First thing I checked. That would have been great :) Its not the case.

Josh

[Tiger]

Spin the engine again and recheck. What about other cylinder pressure?

[joshuagore]

I rechecked several times. Other cylinders are within 5% of each other. 15X

Josh

[Tiger]

Looks like you need a valve job. Any chance you can borrow a lighted borescope? If yes, you can look at the valves from spark plug hole.

[joshuagore]

No, but I want one :)
HF has one for $200, but thats near what I am going to pay to tear the head off (gaskets, Wetc), and it has to come off either way. We will see where the costs go after the head comes off.... rings or valve(s).

Josh

[Mordan]

No, but I want one :)
HF has one for $200, but thats near what I am going to pay to tear the head off (gaskets, Wetc), and it has to come off either way. We will see where the costs go after the head comes off.... rings or valve(s).

Josh

rings? you mean seats? how can you check the piston rings once the head is off.

anyway good luck. what's your engine?

[whiskychaser]

Spin the engine again and recheck.
x1 but with a tsp of oil down the plug hole

[joshuagore]

I checked the rings with a compression test. The pressurized cylinder with no significant blow by but massive exhaust leak give me what I need.

If I do have a bad ring not caught by the above tests it should be obvious as the car was driven and the cylinder will likely be torched.
I still find it unlikely as 50 psi and bad rings normally results in massive blowby when the cylinder is pressurized at tdc. But you never know.

When the heads off I will have a better picture. That should be in a matter of hours assuming the wintery chicago traffic let's up and allows me to be at the shop sometime soon.

Josh.

[Ross]

Hey Joshua, I see you are in Chicago area. Where at?
I was at HF yesterday and received a $5 coupon for the next >$35 purchase. You are welcome to it if you want that borescope.
BTW agree with your diagnosis, I'll bet the rings are fine and an exhaust valve is toast.

[joshuagore]

Hey Joshua, I see you are in Chicago area. Where at?
I was at HF yesterday and received a $5 coupon for the next >$35 purchase. You are welcome to it if you want that borescope.
BTW agree with your diagnosis, I'll bet the rings are fine and an exhaust valve is toast.

If I can convert that into BMA monies I would snag it :)

I have given HF way to much money this year in the Fiat restoration.
Thanks though! Buy your significant other a Christmas gift :)
Josh

[joshuagore]

Did I just catch a mistake in the bentley?

I decided instead of 'just' taking the head off I would follow the bentley. Either I am missing something or in the head removal section 113-14 it mentions nothing of removing the fuel injectors/rail and subsequent wiring loom. It seems to be suggesting that I remove the intake manifold with the head, which seems wise, but I have no idea how you do that without removing the injectors, or at the very minimum the loom.

I should assume they don't think we are idiots and decided that we didn't have to be told to remove the injector harness before removing the valve.

?????

I am going to do it the way I know how ;)

Josh

[632 Regal]

Josh, you should be able to see the ring gap on the top ring from reflection on the cylinder. Compare the low cylinders to the others...agree with above that it's the valves.


I checked the rings with a compression test. The pressurized cylinder with no significant blow by but massive exhaust leak give me what I need.

If I do have a bad ring not caught by the above tests it should be obvious as the car was driven and the cylinder will likely be torched.
I still find it unlikely as 50 psi and bad rings normally results in massive blowby when the cylinder is pressurized at tdc. But you never know.

When the heads off I will have a better picture. That should be in a matter of hours assuming the wintery chicago traffic let's up and allows me to be at the shop sometime soon.

Josh.

[joshuagore]

Josh, you should be able to see the ring gap on the top ring from reflection on the cylinder. Compare the low cylinders to the others...agree with above that it's the valves.

Good idea....

Tonight I got most of the junk off, but I only had an hour to work on the car in between doing other things. Tomorrow I should have the head off and then post some pictures.

Josh

[joshuagore]

Don't ask me how we missed this obvious one :)

Somehow we neglected to test cylinder 3's pressure. Somehow in my angst I must have skipped it. This would have been critical to the diagnosis, as its obvious that cylinder 3 has an open exhaust valve when 2 is at tdc. As you can see from the pictures my head gasket failed. I will still be carefully checking things out while the head is off the car.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3217/3101141969_a94fe2fd26.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3053/3101976908_229e1a91b5.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3238/3101138151_007b70c01a.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/3101137731_e2e4208669.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3239/3101136867_2b32d956e9.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3044/3101136363_cc09f5a0d7.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/3101137327_7ff2f87ff1.jpg?v=0

Josh

[632 Regal]

Watch for fire burn where the gasket failed, can also easily crack the head where the torch work was happening. Have the head tested good not just pressure before re-assembling but for nicrocracks (on iron heads they call it magnaflux, forget what they call it on aluminum)


Don't ask me how we missed this obvious one :)

Somehow we neglected to test cylinder 3's pressure. Somehow in my angst I must have skipped it. This would have been critical to the diagnosis, as its obvious that cylinder 3 has an open exhaust valve when 2 is at tdc. As you can see from the pictures my head gasket failed. I will still be carefully checking things out while the head is off the car.

Gotta Go edit in abit when I get home.

Josh

[joshuagore]

Watch for fire burn where the gasket failed, can also easily crack the head where the torch work was happening. Have the head tested good not just pressure before re-assembling but for nicrocracks (on iron heads they call it magnaflux, forget what they call it on aluminum)

I will be doing some crack inspection with some magnaflux alternative. It cleaned up well after hitting it with a stone.

Josh

[632 Regal]

I'm following.


I will be doing some crack inspection with some magnaflux alternative. It cleaned up well after hitting it with a stone.

Josh

[Ross]

Joshua,
Where are you located? Rick or Bill Gore relations?

[632 Regal]

Nice garage! Now in all honesty how long did it take to clean off the work bench for this picture? :D

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3239/3101136867_2b32d956e9.jpg?v=0

[Jr ///M5]

Ross, don't you remember this years E34 Summer Meet? That was Josh's....

[Jr ///M5]

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/913/img1118zu3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Our E34 Summer Meet host for 2008.....

Thanks again Josh, and good luck with that gasket. Keeping the ol' fingers crossed about the head.

Happy holidays my friend.
JR

[joshuagore]

Ross, don't you remember this years E34 Summer Meet? That was Josh's....

I did loose about 20 pounds since then, but that's hardly noticeable ;)

Coincidence that I get an e34 and loose weight? Must be the lack of cup holders, and required maint.

Josh

[joshuagore]

Saturday update.

Little bit of a late start but I was able to make some progress in between being distracted by some other projects on my Grandfathers truck, my brothers sidecar and a fedex pickup as opposed to delivery. Fedex decided instead of delivering my BMA package to shipping/receiving they would leave a note on the front office door which was of course locked. Luckily they were open until 5, and my parts are in my possession, including a timing chain guide which was cracked in the heat of the moment.... including of course subsequent gaskets etc..

Tomorrow will prove to be more productive due to a lack of distractions from 7am to 7pm. A wife working Sundays can be a blessing and a curse.

The head after being stoned and inspected seems to be in good shape. I could be more elaborate in my inspection of the 'torched' area, including iron dusting and visual 'magnaflux', but visually after stoning away the soot and magnifying the surface it looks beautiful. There is the hidden risk of brittle aluminum, but I would likely see some advanced pitting after the stoning. I am using my best judgment including taking into consideration time/money constraints, and have decided to bolt it together.

Luckily coolant and oil didn't become friends, my head is very true, and my valves are within spec.... so no sense in getting to proactive especially since I have no reason to believe this head gasket was anything more than a failed part, and not a symptom of some other problem. The car in my possession had not been overheated. There could be a string theory relating to the cars life up until July being lived in Texas, and only recently seeing any temperatures below 32 degrees for more than a day. That's a theoretical rant best left to the suits in Washington..... (Brandon H should get that joke)

Pics of the projects hopeful completion to come.... tomorrow.

Josh

p.s. 32mm Craftsmen wrench must be ground... I mean customized.. to fit on the fan clutch.

p.s.s. No that shop picture was not intentionally clean. I like to keep the work area clean as to not cause any spite amongst my Dads shops employees ;)

[632 Regal]

no torch burn on aluminum is a very very good thing. I saw burns on many iron blocks and heads so if the aluminum is clean than so be it. Sounds like a pretty straight forward project from here forward.

[Jeff N.]

You really want one of these for the fan clutch - 32 mm bicycle wrench. Makes especially short work of the fan clutch, zero room consumed in the tool box. It's my only "e34" specific tool after multiple engine pulls, tranny pulls, you name it.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31pcUxB2utL._SL500_AA280_.jpg


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012Q4EH6






Saturday update.

Little bit of a late start but I was able to make some progress in between being distracted by some other projects on my Grandfathers truck, my brothers sidecar and a fedex pickup as opposed to delivery. Fedex decided instead of delivering my BMA package to shipping/receiving they would leave a note on the front office door which was of course locked. Luckily they were open until 5, and my parts are in my possession, including a timing chain guide which was cracked in the heat of the moment.... including of course subsequent gaskets etc..

Tomorrow will prove to be more productive due to a lack of distractions from 7am to 7pm. A wife working Sundays can be a blessing and a curse.

The head after being stoned and inspected seems to be in good shape. I could be more elaborate in my inspection of the 'torched' area, including iron dusting and visual 'magnaflux', but visually after stoning away the soot and magnifying the surface it looks beautiful. There is the hidden risk of brittle aluminum, but I would likely see some advanced pitting after the stoning. I am using my best judgment including taking into consideration time/money constraints, and have decided to bolt it together.

Luckily coolant and oil didn't become friends, my head is very true, and my valves are within spec.... so no sense in getting to proactive especially since I have no reason to believe this head gasket was anything more than a failed part, and not a symptom of some other problem. The car in my possession had not been overheated. There could be a string theory relating to the cars life up until July being lived in Texas, and only recently seeing any temperatures below 32 degrees for more than a day. That's a theoretical rant best left to the suits in Washington..... (Brandon H should get that joke)

Pics of the projects hopeful completion to come.... tomorrow.

Josh

p.s. 32mm Craftsmen wrench must be ground... I mean customized.. to fit on the fan clutch.

p.s.s. No that shop picture was not intentionally clean. I like to keep the work area clean as to not cause any spite amongst my Dads shops employees ;)

[joshuagore]

You really want one of these for the fan clutch - 32 mm bicycle wrench. Makes especially short work of the fan clutch, zero room consumed in the tool box. It's my only "e34" specific tool after multiple engine pulls, tranny pulls, you name it.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31pcUxB2utL._SL500_AA280_.jpg


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012Q4EH6



Ooops I have one of those. I am sure its in my bike box buried in the basement of my parents house. I am furthering the tradition of leaving crap at your parents house hoping some day its worth something. I don't see this wrench appreciating much, but it would have been worth $20 yesterday.

Josh

[Jr ///M5]

How's it fitting back up Josh? There's something I've been meaning to bounce off of you and I keep forgetting about it.

What are the possibilities of machining or CNC'ing the "BMW Motorsport" door handles? Would it be possible to make a clay impression of Kris' Daytona Violet M5's handles and produce a pattern for the machine to follow?

They are NLA (no longer available) from BMW, so the only way to get them is to make them ourselves. You've got the equipment, Kris has the pattern, all I've got is the idea and the need for a couple of nice embossed "BMW Motorsport" door handles. If this worked, you would be able to sell these things like hotcakes!

One of the major drawbacks is of course the labor intensive job of actually removing the handle from the door to do the work, but with a couple of seeds, you would be able to do the old "exchange program"....

Just wanted to see if it was possible....I sure would like a set of those babys.

JR

[joshuagore]

How's it fitting back up Josh? There's something I've been meaning to bounce off of you and I keep forgetting about it.

What are the possibilities of machining or CNC'ing the "BMW Motorsport" door handles? Would it be possible to make a clay impression of Kris' Daytona Violet M5's handles and produce a pattern for the machine to follow?

They are NLA (no longer available) from BMW, so the only way to get them is to make them ourselves. You've got the equipment, Kris has the pattern, all I've got is the idea and the need for a couple of nice embossed "BMW Motorsport" door handles. If this worked, you would be able to sell these things like hotcakes!

One of the major drawbacks is of course the labor intensive job of actually removing the handle from the door to do the work, but with a couple of seeds, you would be able to do the old "exchange program"....

Just wanted to see if it was possible....I sure would like a set of those babys.

JR


JR,

Interesting you bring this up....
A. My father and Three R Plastics currently make aftermarket 'latches' for BMW motorcycles.
B. I work daily with 3d scanners.... so no 'pattern' needed.


This week during my junk yard trip I will yank a door handle, and see what it will take to machine it from solid billet. If it seems to difficult its possible we could machine the stock ones, but I hate to remove material from an already weak part ;)

Josh


p.s. re my car.... A family Christmas party today, and chasing fedex yesterday meant I only had a few moments to get stuff done. I decided since It wasn't being wrapped up today that I would extend the project to the next available weeknight. Seeing as the rush was off I decided to wrinkle paint the intake manifold, and coat the exhaust manifold. Our oven worked nicely to make it all look decent. It also gave me time to replace the timing chain guide without rushing. Breaking that was a project extender, but a good time to replace seals.

[Big Bronze Rim]

Josh, you get the timing chain guide situation sorted out?

[Jr ///M5]

[QUOTE=joshuagore;316012]JR,

Interesting you bring this up....
A. My father and Three R Plastics currently make aftermarket 'latches' for BMW motorcycles.
B. I work daily with 3d scanners.... so no 'pattern' needed.


This week during my junk yard trip I will yank a door handle, and see what it will take to machine it from solid billet. If it seems to difficult its possible we could machine the stock ones, but I hate to remove material from an already weak part ;)

Josh


The handle itself is not very thick, as the lettering on the handle isn't very deep at all. Maybe 1/32" or 1/16" at the most. What would be cool would be a portable type of machining that you could prop the handle open on the car and mount the embosser and let 'er eat. No disassembly required...;)

I'm anxious to know how the engine is coming along. I'm glad you decided to slow down on the installation and do a couple extra things that you will enjoy later. Were you able to use the TIS site any for help?

Happy holidays Josh, drive safe in this ice and snow we got now. Sounds like there is more on the way tomorrow...

JR

[joshuagore]

I will be taking it easy in the snow/ice. Luckily all of my cars, including my wifes are equipped with snow tires.

Here are some pictures of the items I took extra time on. Sure its cosmetic, but I like a clean engine bay like the next guy.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3166/3111454563_07eb761f6a.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3240/3112286340_c2d2c9b4f8.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3224/3112285872_fdabf59fcf.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/3112285478_f3918ef776.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3002/3111452181_44018e8a3d.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3135/3111451719_aaccf52016.jpg?v=0

I found my injectors were Lucas and the tips were coming apart. I removed the crap, and for now we will see how she runs, if the crappy 'internal' tips were necessary I should know quickly, and some Bosch ones will be on the way from Big Bronze Rim.

It is likely if my wife works late, and heads to the gym like she said, then I will have enough time to get her bolted together. If not tomorrow night is available and I am in no hurry, but I do miss comfy seats. Blast Subaru and there 'sporty' seats.

Josh

[joshuagore]

She runs, doing the 35 degree torque now.

Josh

p.s. Slight valve tap, looks like I need an adjustment.... Ya i know why didn't I do it while it was on the table.

[joshuagore]

Had a tough time bleeding her until I remembered about the 19mm on the housing as well.

She is now running, and so far so good. Only real problem is that my central locking issue is still there... I forgot to mention that in between doing this work I replaced the body ecu (or whatever bmw calls it).

The drivers side door always locks, but often doesn't unlock, and if double locked the passengers side door will not unlock. I use the dead battery method for getting in the passengers side, I then start the car, grab my spare key, and 90% of the time the doors unlock while the car is running.

That is for a different thread.

I am really trusting my work because my trip this morning is down south in the city. 2 hours in these conditions :)

Josh