what do you answer to people saying rear propulsion cars suck

[Mordan]

in a BMW context

[Russell]

Rear propulsion cars. LOL. Like the Jetsons!

Seriously, rear wheel drive cars just handle different than front wheel drive cars. Is this why some will say that rear wheel drive cars suck? Perhaps they mean in rainy, icy or snowy weather. Hard to tell from your post.

[RallyD]

depending on how technical their understanding is I would have to say that tires have X amount of grip. That grip can be used either laterally (cornering) or radially (propulsion). Driving the front wheels limits the amount of grip as it needs to be divided between turning, accelerating, and braking. It also tends to bias the vehicle weight towards the front, making a 50/50 weight distribution nearly impossible.
A rear drive vehicle uses the front wheels predominately for turning/braking and rear wheels for accelerating/braking thus allowing more of the tires grip to be used before slip is induced.

if they don't get it then I tell them that FWD just plain sucks, it is boring and you can't do proper donuts. FWD is great for inexperienced drivers because if you push the car too hard it will plow, let off and it is easily recovered. However it just doesn't give me the driving pleasure of RWD.

If theire opinion of BMW rear drive is based on foul weather experience then the car was most likely not fitted with proper tires. My 5er is a blast in the snow with narrow grippy tires, forget about it with the 9" sport wheels/ all season rubber.

[whiskychaser]

in a BMW context

Tell them FWD cars understeer, chew up front tyres and suffer from axle tramp. BMWs on the other hand are perfectly balanced driving machines.
Dont mention snow though!!

[Ross]

And they suck why?
Front drive's only justification, other than packaging, is having the weight of the engine over the drive wheels for better FORWARD traction in snow. A rear drive, rear/mid engine car accomplishes the same thing with the added benefit of being able to A. Steer while drive wheels are spinning B. Control steering angle with the throttle.
Typically these gripes come from inexperienced drivers with summer tires complaining about poor winter traction.
If I could afford to I'd buy 'em all a Camry to shut the **** up.

[repenttokyo]

i usually just walk away.

[tim eh?]

usually something along the lines of "i pity you."

[xspeedy]

Different situations call for different setups. Depending on situation or context, I guess anything can suck. Some people say AWD sucks.

RWD lets you throttle steer around a corner. It also offers better weight distribution (to get to 50/50). It frees up the front wheels so the steering is unadulterated and natural.

FWD is the lightest I believe, so it is good in that sense. Plus it puts more weight over the wheels for slippy situations. Good for economy and daily grocery duty (i.e. minivans and Camrys) where performance isn't always a concern. Some will argue that FWD cars on race tracks have beaten RWD ones. That is true, but with heavy modifications that you will never see on a road car. There seems to be vast improvements to FWD, so torque steer isn't as big a problem as it once was.

AWD offers the best for traction and handling now that it is more intelligent. Though some argue dry condition handling benefits, I think there is still an advantage. Weight is the main negative though, and fuel economy suffers.

[e345spd]

AWD suffers from the same problems as front wheel drive plus even more weight. And no, front wheel drive cars are hardly any better, they still understeer like a bitch. Dry track, all conditions/power/weight/driver equal, the rear wheel drive car will provide the fastest lap times. End of story. AWD can help a driver get better lap times, but the same car in rear wheel drive will be faster if the driver knows how to handle it.

[Paul in NZ]

ask them how many miles/kilometres they get out of a set of tyres...front wheel drive makes for a compact and lighter car(all being equal)I have no problem with small FWD cars bt i draw the line at about 100 kw.....almost impossible to tke of without spinning the front wheels.The final straw for me was driving up a long steep hill,at open road speed,in the rain....the car was spinning its front wheels alternately!!!Powerful fwd cars can spin the front wheels at almost any time,thus compromising steerin.In the same conditions a well balanced rwd car is still controllable

[mikell]

Tell them to learn how to drive.

[philbyil]

Just smile at them like they are stupid 4 year olds, shake your head and walk away. ;)

[Mordan]

RWD lets you throttle steer around a corner. It also offers better weight distribution (to get to 50/50). It frees up the front wheels so the steering is unadulterated and natural.


I'm trying to visualize throttle steering.. is that it ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNIWqz6ffms

a good page explaining why FWD is better on the snow if you brake and apply throttle in a snowy curve

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/snwvlly/fwd.html

[Mordan]

My 5er is a blast in the snow with narrow grippy tires, forget about it with the 9" sport wheels/ all season rubber.

thx all for the answers.

what are the specs of your snow tires for the 5er?

[repenttokyo]

If theire opinion of BMW rear drive is based on foul weather experience then the car was most likely not fitted with proper tires. My 5er is a blast in the snow with narrow grippy tires, forget about it with the 9" sport wheels/ all season rubber.


I've ICE RACED my 5er on good winters. And blown past Scoobies in winter rally in whiteout conditions (driving via maps / timing / gps.)

[repenttokyo]

I'm trying to visualize throttle steering.. is that it ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNIWqz6ffms

a good page explaining why FWD is better on the snow if you brake and apply throttle in a snowy curve

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/snwvlly/fwd.html


that second link is completely wrong in so many ways.

[whiskychaser]

what are the specs of your snow tires for the 5er?
Same tyres as when it doesnt snow. You guys must live a long way off a bus route

[BMWDriver]

205 60 R15 92H. Cuts a bit better through snow than the 225, in theory.

Have they ever even tried RWD, I would ask.

For a sportscar, RWD is usually the norm, no arguments : Porsche, Ferrari, Mustang, Corvette... all RWD. Weight goes to the back of the wheels on acceleration for better traction and a better start. Also better weight distribution is achieved like so.

It's a myth, that's all there is to it. It's different.

But if it was that bad, why would BMW still manufacture all their cars as RWD, (never mind 4WD). Doesn't Mercedes also stick to RWD ? Such prestigeous brands...

[Sam-Son]

usually something along the lines of "i pity you."

ahahah that works

[attack eagle]

I don't. Anyone who doesn't know that RWD is better in all weather conditions is too dumb for me to be around in the first place.

[ArnZ!]

in a BMW context

FWD owners are jealous because they know FWD is for the feeble

[xspeedy]

I'm trying to visualize throttle steering.. is that it ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNIWqz6ffms

a good page explaining why FWD is better on the snow if you brake and apply throttle in a snowy curve

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/snwvlly/fwd.html

I guess the video is an extreme example. I just call that donuts. Throttle steering is the ability to rotate the car (or point the nose) with throttle oversteer. Throttle modulation can be used to balance the attitude of the vehicle during cornering.

I'm not following the logic of the info via the second link provided.

[632 Regal]

bring the FWD drivers and rear wheelers into my driveway and we can make an objective review of who is stuck forever vs those few RWD folks that can maneuver a sharp turn at speed without claiming big rocks on the opposite side. I do it every day, mail chick with 4wd saturn spinnin no posi POS burned up my grass like a bubble float with no conscience, this place hires the most stupid people and it takes stupidity to qualify for the top paying jobs... WTF?


FWD owners are jealous because they know FWD is for the feeble

[Morgenster]

Here's an answer but it's long. Just memorize the 5 main points.

http://www.slate.com/id/2081194/

[Mordan]

Here's an answer but it's long. Just memorize the 5 main points.

http://www.slate.com/id/2081194/

very good one. thx! It also talks about the braking in FWD cars which I read about in one of my above links.

now I have the arguments I wanted for the future

I wanted to see if i get it.. with a RWD in snowy condition isn't it better to drive with a tank full and a boot loaded in order to increase weight and traction on the rear wheels?

[Morgenster]

very good one. thx! It also talks about the braking in FWD cars which I read about in one of my above links.

now I have the arguments I wanted for the future

I wanted to see if i get it.. with a RWD in snowy condition isn't it better to drive with a tank full and a boot loaded in order to increase weight and traction on the rear wheels?

Very common trick and indeed useful but don't get carried away. 100+kgs in the boot is enough. My driving instructor years ago even recommended placing two cement bags in the boot. I never needed to do this since I already had a bigass LPG tank in the boot.
Besides: in the snow without winter tires any car is going to have trouble.
In essence RWD cars are better when it comes to handling and, if you know how to drive them, even safety, but if you're unwilling to get the hang of it a FWD car may be better for you.

edit: I also remember seeing a youtube video of a handling comparison between an alfa romeo (FWD), a quattro audi A4 (4WD) and an e46 325i (RWD). Their conclusion was that the 4WD and RWD were equally safe and safer than FWD in more complex manoevers. They set up some cardboard pedestrians behind a curve so they were invisible to the driver up until the curve's exit. The Alfa made some casualties there.

[RallyD]

what are the specs of your snow tires for the 5er?

conti winter contact 205/60/15 on bottlecap wheels

[NielsGalan]

I saw a BMW ad once that read:

"If you want front wheel drive, just put it in reverse."

That should shut anyone up :-)

[DaveVoorhis]

http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/BMW/Rabbit_0.jpg

[healtoeit]

Yea that pic explains it all too well... :D lol

[myles]

And these

6446

6447

[Jehu]

Nothing, they're obviously too stupid to waste my breath upon.

[GJPinAU]

A burnout in a FWD just looks stupid!

[bad_manners_god]

One time, while I was driving home at night in my touring, (it was probably 1 am) I'm on the highway doing about 160-170km/h trying to beat the rain storm behind me so I could get home (before I knew how to control RWD/Drift). The rear tires had metal on the inside. As I was driving, the rain caught up to me and I immedaitely braked and decreased to about 80km/h in the middle lane of a 3 lane highway. Now the downpour has began and my wipers are on the highest setting and I still don't see too much so I slow down even more to about 60, next thing I know I feel the back end going out a bit but comes back into line. 30 meters after the back slips out again and I didn't know to countersteer and the next thing I knew I was doing donuts in the middle of the highway. I did 3 turns in total, with each turn I saw the guard rail closer and closer. Finally stopped facing the right direction. Scared shitless I drove 15km/h till I got home.

Then I learned to Counter-steer and all is well. Even helps with cornerning is snow conditions where a FWD would just slip and getting understeer.

The fun thing about FWD is in reverse, turn the wheel all the way to 1 side and punch the throttle. Depending on the road conditions you do a 180 in a really small place.

[repenttokyo]

One time, while I was driving home at night in my touring, (it was probably 1 am) I'm on the highway doing about 160-170km/h trying to beat the rain storm behind me so I could get home (before I knew how to control RWD/Drift). The rear tires had metal on the inside. As I was driving, the rain caught up to me and I immedaitely braked and decreased to about 80km/h in the middle lane of a 3 lane highway. Now the downpour has began and my wipers are on the highest setting and I still don't see too much so I slow down even more to about 60, next thing I know I feel the back end going out a bit but comes back into line. 30 meters after the back slips out again and I didn't know to countersteer and the next thing I knew I was doing donuts in the middle of the highway. I did 3 turns in total, with each turn I saw the guard rail closer and closer. Finally stopped facing the right direction. Scared shitless I drove 15km/h till I got home.



did you have 100 percent bald tires? there's no reason for a vehicle, especially a heavy in the back wagon to behave that way in the rain.

[bad_manners_god]

did you have 100 percent bald tires? there's no reason for a vehicle, especially a heavy in the back wagon to behave that way in the rain.

The insides of the tire was metal, at least 30% of the thread was metal and the rubber had 40% wear on them. The tires must have just hydroplaned from all the water.

I was just happy no one else was on the road so I had room to spin out.

[Morgenster]

did you have 100 percent bald tires? there's no reason for a vehicle, especially a heavy in the back wagon to behave that way in the rain.

It's not always tires or cars or propulsion systems. Sometimes nature is just too strong. I've hydroplaned my Fiver when it was gushing before. All you need is puddles that are deep enough.

[repenttokyo]

It's not always tires or cars or propulsion systems. Sometimes nature is just too strong. I've hydroplaned my Fiver when it was gushing before. All you need is puddles that are deep enough.

yeah but on the highway that should never happen.

[Mordan]

And these

6446


I did not get it at first lol... smart ad