DEAD! - No CEL, will not fire - need serious help, Please

[zuzuk212]

I had symptoms before, but only when it got real cold, and have been trying to determine the cause ... well what ever it was will keep it from firing.

The last time it ran, it was 14 degrees F ... so the engine was not warm ... started bucking, spiking the RPM's ... which I've seen before. But this time, loss of power ... downshift, downshift, downshift ... dead. Would crank but not turn over.

Tried stomp test but would not get the CEL to light ... ran dash test ... no CEL, swapped with a known working bulb ... no CEL! :(

I had an issue with my CPS about 3 years ago ... changed it even though I found that it was OK ... I trust the Hella more than the one I put in, especially when I found that the cable was moving within the connector.

I can't find the post about what to suspect with a no start .. anybody have the list or link to that post.

Is my dash screwed? What could cause the CEL not to work?
Is my ECM screwed?

Anybody have a code reader I could borrow? I'm in the Elgin area. Will supply beer or free poster size print of your car/or what ever, for the use of the reader.

This is extremely bad timing since I've been battling the crappastic A4 and costly problems with it and it needs to go back to the shop, which makes it real difficult to get to work w/o any cars:(

Thanks in advance for any and all help,
Ken
'93 525i w/VANOS

[632 Regal]

pretty much sounds like the fuel pump gave it up this time. Check for fuel, then for spark. That way you know what direction to look in.

Good luck with it!


so the engine was not warm ... started bucking, spiking the RPM's ... which I've seen before. But this time, loss of power ... downshift, downshift, downshift ... dead. Would crank but not turn over.

[Tiger]

Fuel pump and double check the CPS.

[zuzuk212]

Thanks Jeff!
Any ideas about the dead CEL?
Ken

[632 Regal]

not sure at all what to make of the dead CEL, maybe as it was dying the voltage draw had something to do with it? Really dont have a clue why the codes went away.

[Ross]

Check for spark first, if no CPS is a likely culprit. If spark try introducing fuel manually. A bit of carb clnr,etc. through a vacuum port or such. If she fires then start trouble shooting the fuel system. Relay and fuses, ground, pump, yada yada.
A little basic trouble shooting is needed first, the codes when retrieved will make more sense that way also.
No explaination for why the CEL is dead.

[zuzuk212]

I just replaced the CPS (crank) even though the one I pulled Ohmed OK.

No spark.
Cam sensor? Chiltons states that it should Ohm between 1.15k-1.41k ... I couldn't find it in Bentley.
Besides the crank and cam sensors, what else would stop the spark? ... other than the coils.

Thanks again,
Ken

[Tiger]

What did you install? Aftermarket or OE new one? Aftermarket CPS is junk. Put back your OE and reset the gap.

[632 Regal]

main relay could be bad.

From one of Winfreds post regarding the CPS:

"theres 3 tests for a cps, pulse, ohm's and current, they can pass 2 out of 3 and be bad, i can't remember exactly what that one reads as resistance 540 or 900 something, pulse is not that important and takes a scope to read, current, should make at least 1 volt AC at cranking speed, generally if the main relay is working the idle control valve will buzz slightly to the touch with the key on"

[zuzuk212]

What did you install? Aftermarket or OE new one? Aftermarket CPS is junk. Put back your OE and reset the gap.

OE died three years ago ... ohms nadda
I replaced it with aftermarket ... thought it was the culprit and ordered a Hella as soon as I could ... but when I got a chance to dig into it found that the aftermarket ohmed ok, but the connector was not solid ... I can move the cable around, so since I have the better part, I put it in but no difference.

I just ohmed the cam sensor ... dead.
Thanks
Ken

[zuzuk212]

main relay could be bad.

From one of Winfreds post regarding the CPS:

"theres 3 tests for a cps, pulse, ohm's and current, they can pass 2 out of 3 and be bad, i can't remember exactly what that one reads as resistance 540 or 900 something, pulse is not that important and takes a scope to read, current, should make at least 1 volt AC at cranking speed, generally if the main relay is working the idle control valve will buzz slightly to the touch with the key on"

I doubt that it is the crank since the one I pulled out ohmed OK and the Hella I just put in ohmed OK and didn't solve it.
The cam sensor on the other hand does not look good. Did not ohm at all. So, I'll let you know what happens after replacing that.

With the dash ... when running the dash test, should the tach and speedo needles go the full travel and peg at maximum? I can't remember, the last time I did it was years ago. The other night they only go to 12 o'clock ... I hope my cluster isn't also screwed.

Thanks for the input,
Ken

[Dave M]

I doubt that it is the crank since the one I pulled out ohmed OK and the Hella I just put in ohmed OK and didn't solve it.
The cam sensor on the other hand does not look good. Did not ohm at all. So, I'll let you know what happens after replacing that.

With the dash ... when running the dash test, should the tach and speedo needles go the full travel and peg at maximum? I can't remember, the last time I did it was years ago. The other night they only go to 12 o'clock ... I hope my cluster isn't also screwed.

Thanks for the input,
Ken

Sounds like you've got a very likely culprit in the cam sensor. If these go, you've got no chance of starting (ask how I know ;) ).
I've also has a Crank Position Sensor with a wire that you could spin around, but it worked fine. Not sure what makes em do that, but their pretty sturdy.

Good luck with it,

Dave

[tim eh?]

Besides the crank and cam sensors, what else would stop the spark? ... other than the coils.


bad distributor or rotor would cause no spark and your other symptoms except for the check engine light.

***...see below... sorry about that.


M50 is coil on plug, so eliminates the distributor/cap/rotor.

[Dave M]

bad distributor or rotor would cause no spark and your other symptoms except for the check engine light.

M50 is coil on plug, so eliminates the distributor/cap/rotor.

Dave

[zuzuk212]

Thanks! I'll let you know what I find ... I should have the part tomorrow ... at least I better!

If you have any ideas about the CEL ... please bounce them off me ... I hope it comes back, but doubt it.

Thanks again and I'll let you know what happens!
Ken

Oh yeah, Dave ... how do you know? =)
So far it's been a pain for me twice =P

[Dave M]

Thanks! I'll let you know what I find ... I should have the part tomorrow ... at least I better!

If you have any ideas about the CEL ... please bounce them off me ... I hope it comes back, but doubt it.

Thanks again and I'll let you know what happens!
Ken

Oh yeah, Dave ... how do you know? =)
So far it's been a pain for me twice =P

First time :D, I installed the metal tag (thing that triggers the sensor) on the intake cam upside down. As I just rebuilt the engine, there were myriad things that could have been FUBAR'd. It took a while to figure that one out.

Second time, I had done a job on the ICV or something and removed the wire harness from the sensor. Again, did an insomplete re-assembly and was left scratching my head when it wouldn't start. Mind you, with previous experience, it took far les time to troubleshoot.

There, I feel beter having admitted my dumb-ass-ed-ness ;)

Dave

[zuzuk212]

I do plenty of dumbass stuff too ... I'm not feeling better though ... would if the car was working. =(

OH CRAP!
I replaced the cam sensor ... no spark!!! NOW WHAT?!
The only thing I can think of would be the ECM? What do you think?
If I take the ECM to the dealer ... would they be able to test it out of the car?

Oh, this sucks ... please let me know what you think the next plan of attack should be.
Thanks!

Ken

[632 Regal]

make sure you are getting power from the main relay before going farther.

[632 Regal]

make sure you are getting power from the main relay before going farther.

edit: I think it is possible to swap another relay for testing but not at all sure or familiar with this.

[Dave M]

I do plenty of dumbass stuff too ... I'm not feeling better though ... would if the car was working. =(

OH CRAP!
I replaced the cam sensor ... no spark!!! NOW WHAT?!
The only thing I can think of would be the ECM? What do you think?
If I take the ECM to the dealer ... would they be able to test it out of the car?

Oh, this sucks ... please let me know what you think the next plan of attack should be.
Thanks!

Ken

As Jeff said, check the DME (ECM) relay first. Its labelled in the photo below and located in the pass side 'black box' (top remove with a large philips).

Now, someone may be able to verify whether an O2 or fuel pump relay can be swapped in for testing. Otherwise, there is a method for testing at the pins whether power is present (try a search or hope someone chimes in).

I noticed you're in IL (?) and I have both a spare DME relay and DME (last three digits are 405, for a non-vanos) that would work for testing. If you can't find something local I could ship these to you for diagnosis.

Dave

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/dave_macisaac/Bimmer/Fuel%20Pump/DSC00502.jpg

[zuzuk212]

I noticed you're in IL (?) and I have both a spare DME relay and DME (last three digits are 405, for a non-vanos) that would work for testing. If you can't find something local I could ship these to you for diagnosis.

Dave


Thanks Dave & Jeff,
I can't see the photo at the moment ... bucket is blocked at work.

Yeah, I'm in Gilberts, West of Elgin in IL. Where are you? I forget and forgot to look before replying:p If I can't get mine tested, that would be great and very nice to try yours. It would still function even though it's non-vanos?
Is there anything else besides the relay and ECM that could cause the problem?

Lastly ... I don't know if you want to try this but I'm still curious about the CEL ... if you disconnect your ECM and run the dash check, does your CEL light?

I'll let you know what I find tonight.
Thanks again!
Ken

[zuzuk212]

OK ... I concur it is the ECM relay! I tried checking the diodes ... the one seemed OK, as far as passing in only one direction ... the other one, pain in the ass to get to and not possible to separate from the rest of the circuit ... so, with the cap still off, plugged it in and watched as the key was turned ... nadda! Tried again and pushed the contact closed ... FIRE!!:) So, hopefully I'll be picking up a relay tomorrow and will let you know if it still works.

A BIG THANKS to all and really appreciate the offer of the ECM ... hopefully I still won't need it.

Still would like to know if anybody has tried the dash test with the ECM disconnected ... please, let me know.

Thanks again and I'll update tomorrow ... I can't wait to have it back!!
Ken


I think I spoke too soon ... I measured for voltage at the relay plug and got nothing, so that would be why the solenoid would not react ... and from the Bentley wiring diagram it looks like that is supplied by the ECM? Are there any fuses dealing with the relay?

Let me know ... thanks,
Ken

[zuzuk212]

NOPE, I spoke to soon ... I put some voltage to the relay ... it works.
I didn't read any voltage from the socket, from 85 & 86.

So ... ECM is shot?
Is there anything else to consider?
What do you think?

Thanks,
Ken

[Tiger]

How about fuse #17... I remember a post back a few month ago... a guy in UK said his car stopped working and then he replaced one fuse... we all could not believe it... but it turns out that fuse does alot more work than the fusebox cover said.

[zuzuk212]

How about fuse #17... I remember a post back a few month ago... a guy in UK said his car stopped working and then he replaced one fuse... we all could not believe it... but it turns out that fuse does alot more work than the fusebox cover said.

COOL! :D
Thanks ... I'll check that in about an hour!
Ken

[zuzuk212]

No dice ... rechecked all fuses in front and all are good.
Thanks for the idea,
Ken

[Tiger]

Found the post... read up... might give you a hint.

http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40229

[632 Regal]

great find, did not put that in the archives but will right now.
Found the post... read up... might give you a hint.

http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40229

[zuzuk212]

I replaced the relay ... just to make sure.
No change :(

[Ross]

NOPE, I spoke to soon ... I put some voltage to the relay ... it works.
I didn't read any voltage from the socket, from 85 & 86.

So ... ECM is shot?
Is there anything else to consider?
What do you think?

Thanks,
Ken

86 is power to the coil and 85 is the ground side of the coil, the ECM controls the relay coil by grounding the 85 terminal, energizing the coil
You should have twelve volts to the sockets corresponding to pin 85 and also 30 which is the feed for the load side of the relay
EDIT I confused 85/86 in my original post and have corrected it. 85 is the ground side of the relay coil. 30 is feed to the load and 87 is load. sorry if I caused any confusion.

[zuzuk212]

YES!!
I think it LIVES! But I want to get confirmation before I start crying from joy.

I bought and received an ECM from Ebay ... same numbers ... just put it in and got SPARK! and turned it off.

CEL is still dead ... so, I'm thinking that problem is contained in the dash.

Now, am I good to go ... start it up and run it without question or is there something more I need to do?
I saw some posts about synchronizing? I wasn't realling following ... do I need to do this, if so how ... even if not, could somebody explain it?

Thanks for everyones help! And, I hope that someone will find this thread helpful when running into the same problem.

Thanks again,
Ken

Oh ... is there anything I can do with the old ECM, besides a paperweight? :p Thanks

[Tiger]

I think some vendors pays for those cores.

[zuzuk212]

UPDATE ... While buttoning up ... I noticed my CEL is BACK ... I disconnected the Ebay ECM ... and it was gone!

This might be some important knowledge to keep in the arsenal!
Ken