This post is my last and final effort.

[infurno]

This is it... I'm about ready to either drive this thing off a cliff or take the time to part it out. :(

This post is my last and final effort.

I replaced the cylinder head (and a lot of other things including injectors) and put about 200 miles on it already. But yesterday morning the timing belt somehow slipped a few notches. Engine stalled when I hit the clutch.

Would not start again, here is a video of it cranking:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5118905370108937022&hl=en

I took it apart and reset the timing back how it should and tensioned the belt again. Put everything back together and it won't start.


Spark is good.
Fuel pressure is good
Spark plugs are wet
My batched compression test read 100 psi so at least we know there is compression.


EVERYTHING is as it should be.

I have gone through two batteries on 12 hour charges cranking this thing. With full throttle down, RPM gets to about ~500 and won't any higher. I get a periodic "put" "put" "put" so there is ignition someplace but the damn thing won't start.

This happened to me before, I believe its flooded but it would eventually start but I don't know now.

Is there anything I can inject into the vacuum lines or cylinders that will fire it up?

Just something to burn that excess gasoline (if that's what it is..)

[Ross]

Doesn't sound like it's got any compression.
A jumped t-belt usually means bent valves. This one sure sounds like zero compression to me

[infurno]

Yeah that video is before the timing was reset back to normal. It had no compression because the timing was all off.

Its reset back to normal now. I suspect that if there were bent valves I would not even get 100 psi since the valves would be still open even in the closed position.

It even holds pressure over extended time.

Lets give that the benefit of the doubt.

[infurno]

I'm going to try starting fluid.

[Dave M]

To me, it does sound like you've got compression in the video.

IF you've set the timing properly (and after doing it a number of times, I trust you have), the plugs are wet, you've got spark, then it may just be flooded. Have you dried things up, waited etc.?

If you want to start fresh, pour the starting fluid on all the seats and the rear shelf, that aught to do the trick ;)

Keep us informed,

Dave

[Bill R.]

To me, it does sound like you've got compression in the video.

IF you've set the timing properly (and after doing it a number of times, I trust you have), the plugs are wet, you've got spark, then it may just be flooded. Have you dried things up, waited etc.?

If you want to start fresh, pour the starting fluid on all the seats and the rear shelf, that aught to do the trick ;)

Keep us informed,

Dave

I disagree, in the video you definitely don't have compression, If you have the cam timing where its supposed to be, and if you didn't bend any valves, (unlikely) then i would pull all the plugs, dry them off and squirt a small amount of oil in each cylinder, then reinstall the plugs and try to start it

[E34-520iSE]

If you try all the above and it still won't start, then as a last resort you could try dragging it along and tow starting it (if it's a manual g/box). These M20's are prone to flooding when cold. I've experienced bore wash a couple of times over the last six years and that results in near zero compression. Even the E30 auto I took my current cyl head from did this trick so I got it cheap cheap cheap.

BTW I don't think you can drive it off a cliff as it won't erm... drive?!

HTH,

Shaun M

[Ross]

BTW I don't think you can drive it off a cliff as it won't erm... drive?!

Ow!

[infurno]

OK well here are the results from the starter fluid effort.

Sprayed it onto the seats.
Sprayed it onto the air filter.
- No start. No effect at all.

Sprayed it into the throttle body while cranking the engine
- No start. No effect at all.


I have to go to work now... Thing is that I have a spare cylinder head with all the parts and valves. But to have them installed + a new head gasket set and new head bolt set would be very expensive. About $400 more give or take & ~2 more days of work.

On top of all that my rings are bad. What am I going to do :(



BTW I don't think you can drive it off a cliff as it won't erm... drive?!

Thats a good point, I'm going to have to think that over.

[E34-520iSE]

Next time you try the starter fluid, pull out the idle control valve to get a bit of fresh air in there. There's obviously plenty of fuel about but it needs air too.

Good luck,

Shaun M

[Mordan]

not. 25 dollars the bolts, + 90 dollars the gasket

anyways.. have you opened the valve cover?, good valve clearance?

I guess you did but mine wouldn't start because of tight valve clearances


put oil in thourhg the plugs hole and crank manually. clean plugs. test the plugs, install and try to the start the engine depressing the gas pedal. if it won't start, no need to try and try. you will only wash the cylinders
check the sound of the fuel pump

[paanta]

Just a data point: my V6 Passat flooded, and because it was cold, STAYED flooded and refused to start for two and a half days. Nothing I did would make it fire up. Every once in a while it'd kick up to about 1000 rpm and die immediately.

I pulled the fuel pump relay, cracked the lines to relieve the pressure, and cranked it like that for a long time. When I hooked the lines back up, it started after a few tries. I guess it'd just moved enough air through to dry it out enough to start.

[infurno]

Shaun, thats good advice on the ICV. I will try that.

I was just doing the timing with the spark plugs in and I noticed that as I'm turning the engine is not giving me any resistance.

Before, It would breathe and fight back as pressure built up. I think there is something very wrong in there... I will take it apart on Saturday just to see what the hell happened.

[Tiger]

On fuel injector car, to start a flooded engine, you must crank the engne with full throttle. By doing full throttle, it tells the computer to cut off fuel to the engine.

[whiskychaser]

You cant go off what it sounds like. Mine has refused to run twice in 4 years and sounded like that when it wouldnt fire. And I know I have about 180 psi all on cylinders. Yours is a bit low at 100 but if you had bent valves it would be zero. So keep at it and dont let it die!

[Ross]

I might tend to agree with you Whisky but he has already stated the t-belt jumped.
Removing the rocker cover and cranking while observing the valve action I suspect will reveal a few valves that aren't closing. Just a cursory check of valve lash is probably all that's needed. I think it's the exhaust that get kissed, if lash is huge....

[sal_park]

Hi,

is there a reason why the timing belt jumped in the first place ? They don't tend to do it without a reason, and although you've reset it, what's to say it's not jumped again ?

sal

[whiskychaser]

I might tend to agree with you Whisky but he has already stated the t-belt jumped.
Removing the rocker cover and cranking while observing the valve action I suspect will reveal a few valves that aren't closing. Just a cursory check of valve lash is probably all that's needed. I think it's the exhaust that get kissed, if lash is huge....
Arent the inlet valve heads bigger than the exhaust so more likely to hit the piston? When I had a similar problem a couple of years ago, somebody who will remain nameless came up with this test: Fire up a big ole cigar and blow the smoke in the cylinders through the plug hole and see if it comes out the intake. Okay maybe that's a bit primative. It might work.;)

[infurno]

It was probably my dumb mistake the timing belt jumped. I'm not a mechanic, I should just stay out of the damn motor.

I just replaced the old belt when I installed the new head. Everything was tight, I double and triple checked everything. I don't know what happened but the fact that it did must be my fault since that does not usually happen.

Car was fine for about 200 miles, but that was a very cold morning.

I just checked compression in some other cylinders. Some are better than others but there are a few almost zero. The head is trashed, needs to be removed. Now its just a mater of justifying the extra money and effort when so many other things are wrong with it.

Adding oil to the cylinders made no improvement.

[whiskychaser]

It was probably my dumb mistake the timing belt jumped. I'm not a mechanic, I should just stay out of the damn motor.

I just replaced the old belt when I installed the new head. Everything was tight, I double and triple checked everything. I don't know what happened but the fact that it did must be my fault since that does not usually happen.

Car was fine for about 200 miles, but that was a very cold morning.

I just checked compression in some other cylinders. Some are better than others but there are a few almost zero. The head is trashed, needs to be removed. Now its just a mater of justifying the extra money and effort when so many other things are wrong with it.

Adding oil to the cylinders made no improvement.

Most of the people on here are not full time mechanics. Even if they are they can make mistakes. The old saying that a man who never made a mistake never made anything comes to mind. If it ran for 200 miles you cant have got that much wrong. I replaced my valves and then the head gasket 3 times before I was happy with it. You could say I'm an idiot and should have given up. I'd say I kept at it and its running perfectly 2 years on. I wont ever let a motor beat me. But being stubborn isnt always being prudent. You decide:)

[infurno]

I think I would have felt better to find it destroyed.

It looks intact. I can't believe this... I turned it a few times by hand and its working exactly as it should.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/305574/motor/cylinderhead.jpg

[whiskychaser]

After taking it all apart I bet you are sick. The plugs that are in look very mucky and wont have helped with starting. So while its apart I'd be investigating the cause. There appear to be pock marks near the valves in the middle 2 pics. Maybe it is just the pic but was it 'pinking' before it stopped running?

[Bill R.]

never, you need to rotate the cam so that a cylinder is closed and then with it turned upside down like you have it but blocks under it so its lever, then fill a closed cylinder combustion chamber with solvent or even water. If it drains then you have a bent valve. Then rotate the cam and go to the next cylinder until you've checked them all... Its not always that obvious which ones are bent. A very slight bend holds the valve up off the seat enough that you lose compression.




I think I would have felt better to find it destroyed.

It looks intact. I can't believe this... I turned it a few times by hand and its working exactly as it should.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/305574/motor/cylinderhead.jpg

[Ross]

Something looks to have been rattling about in a couple of cylinders as well. are all those electrodes still on the plugs? Are the cylinders or pistons damaged?

[infurno]

Thanks for the advice. I will check with a solvent tonight.

I checked compression the other day and got 0 psi in some of the cylinders. There must be a reason for this. If there was a hit should we at least see some impact marks on the valves?

The marks and pocks were there when I bought the rebuilt cylinder head.

[Ross]

The pistons are more likely to bear the witness marks, if they are sharp edged grind them smooth.
As long as you have it apart I'll suggest smoothing those pock marks in the head also. The raised areas around them could become hot spots and contribute to detonation. While you're at it loose those 4 electrode plugs, I wouldn't be surprised to learn the marks on your head were from the last engine's plugs falling apart.

[infurno]

verdict of the valve seal test.

I turned the camshaft until the valves were fully closed and filled each (cylinder?) with water. Some would hold for about 7-8 seconds before the water dripped through, shortest was 5 seconds. The longest was 13.

The only cylinder that did not seem to leak any water was the one that has been working. I figure this may be because it's the one that was burning the oil I added and the carbon residue may be helping create a seal. I cleaned as much of the carbon off as I could (but not all) and it leaked on the next test but very slow.

I'm guessing this is a bad result. Any input?

[whiskychaser]

Not good. You could smear a bit of grease under an inlet valve and try the test again (inlets are bigger and more likely to be hit). That would at least tell you which valves are affected. But I'd be taking them all out to inspect them. I'd want to lap them in again anyway so they would all be coming out anyway. Just so you dont feel alone, here's a pic of what happened to mine when the chain slipped:

[E34-520iSE]

Wow those valves really look bent - Did you use a fisheye lens for that pic?!!

[whiskychaser]

Wow those valves really look bent - Did you use a fisheye lens for that pic?!!
Nope. Think it was just my mobile-couldnt get all 12 valves on the pic

[bsell]

If there was a hit should we at least see some impact marks on the valves?

The marks and pocks were there when I bought the rebuilt cylinder head.

Why do the exhaust valves have 'flaked off' carbon deposits? See how the remaining carbon deposits have sharp edges? If this 'flaking' happened and you drove the car for a while, they would have burned the sharpness off of them. I figure the sharp edges on the carbon deposits are your 'evidence' of a crash. I would love to see the tops of the pistons...I'm sure you will see some 'compressed' carbon build-up where the valves went tappity-tap on the piston tops.

Those 'marks and pocks' (or more correctly, the points) are pre-ignition nightmares. Think of every peak glowing red hot under load and igniting the fuel/air mixture with no sense of crankshaft timing. Unless money is extremely tight, I would sell that head for scrap and start over.

Brian

[632 Regal]

All 3 exhaust valves here look to have hit the piston, same position #1 & 3 with #2 looks like it rotated and hit like half way around. intakes look okay from what I can see.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/305574/motor/cylinderhead.jpg[/quote]

[infurno]

Well it's taken me a while to find time to work on it between classes and work. Last night I finished installing the cylinder head and it started the second I turned the key.

Everything seems to be working great, better than ever before. Inside the car you almost can't hear it running. Has a lot more power now, maybe 2 or 3 times quicker but I'm taking it easy for now so I can't be sure. Watching for air bubbles in the coolant and oil level. Ride is very smooth and quiet.

I think I have a vacuum leak somewhere under the air intake manifold. There is a constant hissing sound and I can't pinpoint it. It may be coming from the crankcase ventilation tube. Possibly neglected to install or replace a gasket or something.

I'm still burning a little oil but not at start. When accelerating I can see a bit of a blue cloud but it goes away after driving a few seconds.

It's not perfect but still better than I have ever seen it.

Thank you everyone for the encouragement and help finding the problem. :D

[632 Regal]

Congrats! Did you retorque the headbolts?


Well it's taken me a while to find time to work on it between classes and work. Last night I finished installing the cylinder head and it started the second I turned the key.

Everything seems to be working great, better than ever before. Inside the car you almost can't hear it running. Has a lot more power now, maybe 2 or 3 times quicker but I'm taking it easy for now so I can't be sure. Watching for air bubbles in the coolant and oil level. Ride is very smooth and quiet.

I think I have a vacuum leak somewhere under the air intake manifold. There is a constant hissing sound and I can't pinpoint it. It may be coming from the crankcase ventilation tube. Possibly neglected to install or replace a gasket or something.

I'm still burning a little oil but not at start. When accelerating I can see a bit of a blue cloud but it goes away after driving a few seconds.

It's not perfect but still better than I have ever seen it.

Thank you everyone for the encouragement and help finding the problem. :D

[Ross]

Get after that vac leak.
glad it's fixed

[whiskychaser]

Glad to hear you got it up and running. Sort the inlet leak and you may not chuck so much crap out of the exhaust. So what did you do to get her going again - new head? new valves?

[infurno]

I had an extra cylinder head with some damage from shipping. I used parts from the interference damaged head to repair it and reset all of the rocker arms. A new head gasket set and head bolt set is all it took.

It would have been done sooner but I ended up waiting over week for Bavauto to ship the head gasket. They never did. I canceled my order and went with pelican parts. They seems to be much better, very happy with service and purchase.

Now that I have extra power my clutch is slipping on medium-high acceleration... Reading the Bentley it does not look difficult to replace. But needs special tools and the warnings about asbestos... I think this time it may be a good idea to take it to someone who knows what they are doing.