Las Vegas Instrument Cluster :(

[mzarifkar]

First off, It was good to see this forum still in existence, while researching my problem around, there appear to be none classier and more mature than this stronghold of wealth. I used to be on this forum quite a bit and then kind of lost track of it (not because my car was problem less ofcourse)

So I seem to have reached wits end and am nearing a trip to the stealership, but not after a last ditch effort to try and find out what is going on, so here goes:

1995 525i 140k miles (my profile said 111k, that was a while ago..)

The center information cluster, along with the gear indicator and mileage cluster will randomly start flashing and rolling. Imagine a combination between night rider and las vegas light shows. I will try and get a video of it if that would help the diagnoses. Does anyone have a clue what is going on here? I have not found it to be specific to shock.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3390/3427503166_0107c9bafc.jpg?v=0 (remember me now?)

[BMWDriver]

My suggestion is opening up the cluster and having a look at it to see if anything obvious happened like a leaking capacitor, or a loose part.

Also, if you can get your hands on a matching used cluster, would be ideal. The stealer might want to cut corners and make you buy parts, because diagnostics of this type of problem can be quite hellish.

However, keep in mind that there are bulbs lighting these. There might be a loose connection somewhere too.

[myles]

I had a friend with that problem. The cause was that the engine was misfiring and upsetting the electrics of the whole car. I think his mechanic replaced all of the leads, plugs, cap and rotor. You can doesn't have half of those items, but it might be something similar.

[mzarifkar]

I managed to wiggle the cluster loose, was unable to completey take it off because the top steering wheel shaft cover was still in place, but i did manage to connect and disconnect the connectors, which actually made it worse now, as it fully lights up, but doesnt have any data on it, occasionally it will run through the pixels from top to bottom. I will try later to take the whole thing out. Any one else have heard of this happening?


My suggestion is opening up the cluster and having a look at it to see if anything obvious happened like a leaking capacitor, or a loose part.

Also, if you can get your hands on a matching used cluster, would be ideal. The stealer might want to cut corners and make you buy parts, because diagnostics of this type of problem can be quite hellish.

However, keep in mind that there are bulbs lighting these. There might be a loose connection somewhere too.

[John in CT]

mounted above each plug. Distributor went the way of the Emu, still I suppose there could be some hivoltage leakage, does the car run normally except for the light sgow?

Good luck,

John
1995 525i 5 speed 125K miles.

[mzarifkar]

Car actually runs like crap. Twice now it has had a dramatic loss of power while going at highway speed, car then stalls, wont start for a little, then runs like it is on 2 pistons, it may fire through the manifold a little, then it will caugh it out and leave me clueless.
Thought it was an unrelated issue. Tell me more.

I did recently( 200miles ago) change spark plugs, notices some grime between coil and spark, figured that was the problem, but the previously described episode reoccured.

[myles]

Car actually runs like crap. Twice now it has had a dramatic loss of power while going at highway speed, car then stalls, wont start for a little, then runs like it is on 2 pistons, it may fire through the manifold a little, then it will caugh it out and leave me clueless.
Thought it was an unrelated issue. Tell me more.

I did recently( 200miles ago) change spark plugs, notices some grime between coil and spark, figured that was the problem, but the previously described episode reoccured.

Get it running more smoothly and then see what the cluster does. What codes do you get from it?

[Ross]

Low voltage will cause the car to run poorly and also all sorts of other odd behavior, everything is computer controlled.
The LCD displays also sometimes loose pixels or intermittantly lose pixels, sometimes temperature related.
The current which "switches" the liquid crystals is provided by a compressible connection on one side, sort of rubberlike. If the bond becomes weak they go haywire. Reclamping the assembly will often bring them back. There are metal tabs that hold it all together, give them a lttle extra squeeze, don't seperate the LCD panel from the "rubber" strip. This will all make sense once the parts are before you.
If pressing on the face of the cluster effects the display, this is your problem.

[ScottyWM]

Mine's done this randomly for almost a year now. Seemed less likely to go haywire when it's cold outside, but I drove it 600 miles in hot (80-90°) weather the past two days and it didn't go into "vegas mode" at all. Then the next morning I started it up and within a few minutes it went haywire. Car runs beautifully, but the battery is old (8 years) and voltage could be low - but I doubt it. When I 'push' on the cluster face, there is no change, but the cluster doesn't have any movement either. I suppose we'll have to take the cluster out and check the LCD panel to make sure it's clamped securely.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[tim eh?]

low voltage makes a lot of sense here and in OP's situation.

not that i know fer sure ... my cluster went nuts with <12v - not like that, but I think it's a pretty good bet, especially if the engine's running poorly. but what happens when you turn everything on? (i mean everything... highbeams, max blower, rear defrost...)

[mzarifkar]

low voltage makes a lot of sense here and in OP's situation.

not that i know fer sure ... my cluster went nuts with <12v - not like that, but I think it's a pretty good bet, especially if the engine's running poorly. but what happens when you turn everything on? (i mean everything... highbeams, max blower, rear defrost...)

I will try the high load scenario. I don't seem to be able to reproduce the vegas effect with percussion. I did extract a 1222 code out of the check engine light. I am still debating if i should take the car in to the dealer.
How would a poorly running engine cause a voltage drop that the battery wouldnt be able to compensate for. I have seen no correlation yet between (obvious) poor engine performance and this effect. but i will get back after trying the high load test.

[632 Regal]

you have things backwards, low voltage will cause the engine to run bad.

How would a poorly running engine cause a voltage drop that the battery wouldnt be able to compensate for..

[mzarifkar]

So are we thinking ignition coils then? They look pricey, can you Dx one of them or should i replace them all regardless.

I did a high load test: wipers, rear defrost, radio, heat, windows, and power chair, found no difference as compared to everything off (performed at idle speed)

I did a quick check, bav auto has a set of 6 "high performance" home brand coils for $270. I can get a set of 6 on ebay for around 150. After 140k miles, would that be something that could have broken? (sparks have less than 1000miles on them)

[shogun]

low voltage sometimes = might be a haircrack in the fusible link. That I would check first.
Last year we had an 850 that ran well most of the time, but sometimes it would not start, or run bad, then it would start like normal, lights making probs etc.
Owners wife already insisted he should sell it. Because sometimes she drove shopping, switched the engine off, when she came back, no start. Or it went off when she was at a signal light and so on.
Turned out the fusible link had a haircrack. And the owner insisted to us he checked the fusible link and it works. Turned ou the owner did not know that the E31 850 has 2 fusible links and both batteries
on the E31 must work.
Use a voltmeter, check on the battery, then on B+ pole on engine room, then pull on the red wire from the battery, check the voltage before the fusible link and after the fusible link.
Haircracks are difficult to detect, often they are hiding under the bolts.

[mzarifkar]

I hope the only fusible link in the e34 is under the seat next to the battery right?

[632 Regal]

I believe that is it. You can also check it on the OBC and watch it as you drive. Start there and we will progress. No need to throw money at it like the Stealer will. Was there any oil pooled up around the spark plugs when you changed them?


I hope the only fusible link in the e34 is under the seat next to the battery right?

[pingu]

I've got a suspicion that there might be two fusible links in some E34s. A while back, on two different cars, I had a problem with the engine not cranking if the engine was warm. It wasn't the starter motor, fusible link, ignition switch, battery etc.

I seem to remember seeing something that suggested that as well as the fusible link, there can also be a separate "in-line" fuse. If I remember correctly, the in-line fuse isn't replaceable in the same way as the fusible link; the in-line fuse is built into the cable that it protects and the in-line fuse is also covered in heat shrink so isn't visible unless you go looking for it.

So bear in mind that this may be a red-herring but it might be worth keeping in mind if you can't find any other way of fixing your instrument cluster.

[shogun]

that is how it loks on an E32 735 1988, 2 pieces.
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/377728/

[mzarifkar]

I believe that is it. You can also check it on the OBC and watch it as you drive. Start there and we will progress. No need to throw money at it like the Stealer will. Was there any oil pooled up around the spark plugs when you changed them?

battery voltage is around 14.05-14.25 while driving regardless of instument panel symptoms.

Yes there was some oil around some of the spark plugs and inbetween the coils and plugs, I cleaned them out before reinstalling.

[tim eh?]

mine has 2 FLs, and even though I have an m20 with the battery in the front I think we are all pretty similar. Pics of mine here (http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39960).

[mzarifkar]

Update:

OBD Voltmeter reads normal while instrument panel is symptomatic. I checked resistance on ignition coils, they should be between .4-.8 Ohm according to bently, only cylinder 5 was off (1.2 ohm)

[shadowpuck]

right after we purchased our '93 525, i had this exact same problem.

it almost looked like some kind of test mode on the LCD panels on the instrument cluster. I couldn't decide if it was Vegas mode or aliens trying to communicate with us.

The fix for us was to simply swap the cluster. I bought a used cluster on ebay, and scored a refurbished cluster motherboard on ebay for cheap. Put the refurbished board in the "new" used cluster and all was good; haven't had a problem since.

Since the repair ended up being rather cheap and it worked, I didn't really pursue fixing the old cluster. I still have it around here somewhere.....

[mzarifkar]

right after we purchased our '93 525, i had this exact same problem.

it almost looked like some kind of test mode on the LCD panels on the instrument cluster. I couldn't decide if it was Vegas mode or aliens trying to communicate with us.

The fix for us was to simply swap the cluster. I bought a used cluster on ebay, and scored a refurbished cluster motherboard on ebay for cheap. Put the refurbished board in the "new" used cluster and all was good; haven't had a problem since.

Since the repair ended up being rather cheap and it worked, I didn't really pursue fixing the old cluster. I still have it around here somewhere.....

I think aliens are trying to communicate with me as well. Were you able to resolve the difference in mileage?

[shogun]

you can use the old chip/Eeprom from existing cluster if it is the same cluster type (white or blue back), mileage, tank size, chassis number etc. are all stored in that Eeprom.

[shadowpuck]

yup, shogun is right (as always!). i simply transferred the coding plug from one cluster to the other and the transplant was a success.

[Kalevera]

For whatever it's worth, I've seen this manifest as a bad instrument cluster coding chip, bad cluster motherboard, and intermittent/poor connections at the four cluster harness connectors.

[mzarifkar]

I had a chance to removed the dash and inspect all the connections. Nothing seemed loose or corroded. I opened up the dash and didnt see anything odd (not that I was expecting to see anything)

I was wondering however, where is the coding plug, and what is the print board that is transveresly mounted along the bottom of the dash.
Also, If I wanted to replace this dash, what is compatibility like with other e34's
Thanks!

[shadowpuck]

the cluster motherboard is inside the back part of the cluster (either blue or white backing - I think? Mine was blue).

The coding plug is in that colored backing plate. I can probably take a photo of mine if you need it.

I'm not sure what other printed board you are talking about? Are you talking about in the instrument cluster itself?

As I recall (and please someone correct me if I'm wrong) but the blue colored clusters are compatible with blue, and white with white.

[ScottyWM]

Just to add another perspective... I got tired of mine doing this vegas mode thing so I tore into it today. First off, I read that you can remove the cluster without removing the steering wheel. I did that, but it was a bitch! And putting it back in was a double bitch. Next time (and there will be a next time) I will remove the steering wheel (make sure to disconnect battery). Got it out though, and everything looked okay to me. I unseated and reseated everything I could, threw it back together and crossed my fingers. Well, it seems to have worked! I didn't change or fix anything, probably just jiggling the connectors did the trick. But... I'll have to go in again as now one of the bulbs is dead... damn it!

[mzarifkar]

I also managed to get the cluster our without removing the wheel. Jsut make sure to cover your column with something soft to protect the dash plastic. On mine however it made no difference and actually now i have a SRS light on, could that be related?

[JD525IA]

I also managed to get the cluster our without removing the wheel. Jsut make sure to cover your column with something soft to protect the dash plastic. On mine however it made no difference and actually now i have a SRS light on, could that be related?

Did you get your sensors wet or something? I was cleaning the engine bay years ago and I got one of the two neon orange accelerometers wet with water. The light would not go out until my mechanic cleared the codes.

They can tell if it is a one time fault or reoccuring. Also, if you disconnect the airbag without disconnecting the battery first, you will get a SRS light.

Hope you can fix your gremlins!

JD

[mzarifkar]

Did you get your sensors wet or something? I was cleaning the engine bay years ago and I got one of the two neon orange accelerometers wet with water. The light would not go out until my mechanic cleared the codes.

They can tell if it is a one time fault or reoccuring. Also, if you disconnect the airbag without disconnecting the battery first, you will get a SRS light.

Hope you can fix your gremlins!

JD

I don't think i got anything wet, I dont spray water under the hood. I may have to ask my mechanic to read the codes :(

[ScottyWM]

Damn, I spoke too soon. Mine is still going Vegas on me. But seems to be a lot less often for some reason. Looks like it's time to replace it.

[ScottyWM]

Just to update on my instrument cluster problem, I ended up finding a good one here locally for $40. Changed the code chip, popped in the cluster and haven't had a problem since.

I did not have to pull the steering wheel on any of the ins and outs with the cluster. Adjust the steering wheel all the way out. Then I drive so that the front wheels are on cardboard, then (with the battery disconnected of course) when you bring the cluster out towards the steering wheel, you can easily turn it towards the turn signal stalk and slide the cluster right out the side (key needs to be in accessory position). I guess you could raise the front end to get the tires off the ground too, but the cardboard was good enough.

[mzarifkar]

good call on the cardboard.
What kind of compatibility do BMW dashboards have, do i need to find a 95 e34 or can it be a little less restrictive?

[ScottyWM]

No, as long as it has the blue back it should be fine. The earlier ones (pre '92 I think?) have a white back. I put one from a '94 into my '93. If you search it out here there is information on exactly which years will work, but you'd be safe with any E34 from '93 on.

I wrote on the back of mine the date, mileage, etc, of when I changed it out along with the code chip just in case someone ever cares about that in the future.

I don't think changing the cluster will remove the SRS warning if you're thinking about that. I had that on my E36 and ended up taking it to the garage and having them t-shoot it. It wasn't something I wanted to mess with and have the damn thing discharge or something. Turned out to be a worn out connector ring thing at the steering wheel. Since I wanted the airbag to work if needed, I fixed it. Don't think it will pass inspection with the SRS light on either.

[mzarifkar]

Thanks!!
Ill be on the lookout for a new dash. Ill have a dealer read the code and see what's up with it.

[ScottyWM]

It doesn't have to be a dealer, a good independant garage did my SRS light.

This guy had a cluster for sale I was going to get before I found one local, he told me $40 sounded about right:
http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41401

[mzarifkar]

It doesn't have to be a dealer, a good independant garage did my SRS light.

This guy had a cluster for sale I was going to get before I found one local, he told me $40 sounded about right:
http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41401

Not THE Dealer, Our local ford dealers is actually really awesome and have done tons of stuff for free for me.