Reverse gone! Did Kirt move?

[zhandax]

2-3 weeks ago, the trans started occasionally taking 10-15 seconds to engage reverse. It was intermittent, and usually only when shifting to reverse from drive. Today, it started, no problem shifting into reverse, out of the garage and to work. At lunchtime, I ran out and when I got back in the parking lot (I always back into a parking space) no reverse. Tried 4 or 5 times. Circled the lot and pulled in forward thinking maybe it would be OK on a cold start. Eight hours later, and still no reverse. I pushed it out of the parking space.

I did some searching and there was at least one recent post which made it appear that Kirt may have joined Europeantransmissions in Cummings, Ga. Is this the case, or is he still in Zeeland? Looks like I need to talk to him today. Is he still the preferred rebuilder over the guys in GA?

The other concern is I saw another post which hinted that a sudden loss of reverse was the result of a clutch pack having some clip break that holds it together (thought I bookmarked it, but guess not) rather than the infamous plastic ball getting sucked through the hole in the valve body. I have had no trouble engaging forward gears and the box pretty much lost its hard 3-4 shift since I had the fluid and filter changed 2-3 years ago. Is there any way to tell without disassembly or should I just get the parts for both (with minimizing downtime -i.e.rental car- a prime consideration)? It does not appear that this car ever had the bathtub ball replacement. Dependent on which, how critical is it to get the car off the road immediately?

[whiskychaser]

http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Bulletin/DTC.BMW/98-61.pdf

I'd be a bit concerned about the warning about possible damage if you continue to use the car

[zhandax]

Yes, that ZF bulletin is what caused the concern. Guess I will try for Kirt at both places. I assume a valve body can be changed out in a day if I get it overnighted in? I found the link about "retaining clip on the reverse clutch pack" which is here:
http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35535&highlight=reverse+540i
If I can get that clip overnighted as well, are we still looking at a day? Also, how many have had the electrical connector on the tranny which goes to the computer be brittle and need replacement (I assume the whole cable assembly is one piece)? Can Kirt supply this as well?

[shogun]

Kirt can be contacted at autosports, see phone number inside
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/141358

[bubba966]

Yes, that ZF bulletin is what caused the concern. Guess I will try for Kirt at both places. I assume a valve body can be changed out in a day if I get it overnighted in? I found the link about "retaining clip on the reverse clutch pack" which is here:
http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35535&highlight=reverse+540i
If I can get that clip overnighted as well, are we still looking at a day? Also, how many have had the electrical connector on the tranny which goes to the computer be brittle and need replacement (I assume the whole cable assembly is one piece)? Can Kirt supply this as well?

Well, as I was the one speaking of that retaining clip problem I'll try to explain it better than I did in that post.

It's not a clip that breaks. It's the part of the clutch pack housing that the retaining clip fits into that breaks. Then the retaining clip is no longer holding the reverse clutch pack together. At that point you're in for a tranny change or full rebuild.

If you pull off the pan you'll see chunks of aluminum from the clutch housing if that's what it is.

[whiskychaser]

Well, as I was the one speaking of that retaining clip problem I'll try to explain it better than I did in that post.

It's not a clip that breaks. It's the part of the clutch pack housing that the retaining clip fits into that breaks. Then the retaining clip is no longer holding the reverse clutch pack together. At that point you're in for a tranny change or full rebuild.

If you pull off the pan you'll see chunks of aluminum from the clutch housing if that's what it is.
Think you could point out which bit you mean on a diagram? I have a feeling if you get too much lateral movement one of the packs will let go:

[632 Regal]

Flip the drum over and you'll see the clip at the inside edge, it holds the clutches inside the drum.
Think you could point out which bit you mean on a diagram? I have a feeling if you get too much lateral movement one of the packs will let go:

[whiskychaser]

Flip the drum over and you'll see the clip at the inside edge, it holds the clutches inside the drum.
Oh, the circlip :D Thanks for the clarification

[zhandax]

After the description and the picture (thanks for both) this looks pretty binary: circlip is holding/ its not holding. As such, it seems the clip would be without warning (such as taking ~10 seconds to go into reverse as has happened the last 2-3 weeks). The precursor sounds more consistent with the known issue with the bathtub ball. I tried Kirt a half dozen times Tuesday (thanks for a direct number shogun) with no luck. If I don't get him Wednesday, should I just go ahead and have one of his people overnight a valve body?

[whiskychaser]

After the description and the picture (thanks for both) this looks pretty binary: circlip is holding/ its not holding. As such, it seems the clip would be without warning (such as taking ~10 seconds to go into reverse as has happened the last 2-3 weeks). The precursor sounds more consistent with the known issue with the bathtub ball. I tried Kirt a half dozen times Tuesday (thanks for a direct number shogun) with no luck. If I don't get him Wednesday, should I just go ahead and have one of his people overnight a valve body?
As Bubba said, I dont think its the circlip thats the problem-its only going to let go if the housing is damaged. The circlips on mine were still in place. A duff MV will also cause you to lose reverse (its no.3 on the 5HP18 but I couldnt tell you for the 5HP30) so you might want to check the electrics. I'd wait to get expert advice if you can though

[zhandax]

Talked to Kirt, valve body should be here tomorrow, tech is expecting me. Wish me no metal in the pan!

[Tiger]

Glad you got a hold of Kirt. He helped me out with mine years ago... still running strong. I had the checkball problem that when I pulled out of the garage, it was fine but when I wanted to go forward, I couldn't... it felt like the parking brake was on... both the drive and reverse were activated at the same time. Since I didn't go anywhere or drive with any sort of problem, the tranny was fine and just the valve body needed to be rebuilt.

How much is a rebuilt valve body going for these day?

[zhandax]

$400 which, if I remember correctly, is only $50 more than 2006 when I first talked to him about getting one.

[Tiger]

Ahh... that' pretty much the same... I recall paying about that much... maybe a bit cheaper long ago... but that's pratically the same price from my point of view. Usually it would have been much more... considering how much they are getting for rebuilt tranny.

[whiskychaser]

Wouldnt want to seem to be a spendthrift, but I'd have gone for this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ZF5HP30-BMW-OEM-ZF-VALVE-BODY-KIT-ZF-LIFE-2-5HP30VBK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em1 4QQhashZitem260114640263QQitemZ260114640263QQptZMo torsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[Mr._Graybeard]

Wouldnt want to seem to be a spendthrift, but I'd have gone for this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ZF5HP30-BMW-OEM-ZF-VALVE-BODY-KIT-ZF-LIFE-2-5HP30VBK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em1 4QQhashZitem260114640263QQitemZ260114640263QQptZMo torsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

I bought the VB kit from Kirt last year for $135, IIRC. The rebuild isn't a difficult job but it's messy and a little tedious. It took me maybe five hours but I was going slowly to make sure I didn't screw it up.

[MBXB]

http://www.e38.org/e32/e32%20transmission%20valve.pdf

[632 Regal]

So Kirt thinks it could be the valve body then? If so this is the first time I heard of a valvebody failure for a 5HP-18 with that low of miles.

Talked to Kirt, valve body should be here tomorrow, tech is expecting me. Wish me no metal in the pan!

[zhandax]

Jeff, I have the 5HP30 which -sure seems like- got its fame from valve body failures. bubba966 is driving a 540 now, but he didn't say it was the car with the broken circlip holder. When I mentioned the circlip to Kirt, he said that sounds more like a 5HP18 and he couldn't remember one on a 5HP30. Add in the fact that my car has not thrown a single code (eliminating the trans ECU?) and it almost has to be the valve body, or at least that sounds like the way to bet. I did tell my tech if he sees metal in the pan, call me and don't even bother installing the VB. Just in case I'm the first.

As far as doing it myself, if it were a 4-barrel Holley that I could stand on both feet to remove for a rebuild, no problem. Since I started getting junk mail from AARP (knew I should have stayed away from that Foreigner concert they sponsored) I find I would rather get a root canal than work underneath a car. The last time I changed the trans filter on the Mercedes I got an oil shampoo. Long arms, a 12" deep ribcage, and jackstands make for pretty miserable working conditions on a crawler. Maybe I need to throw the jackstand boxes away. Seeing "Made in China" every time I have to trust my life to them doesn't help any.

[zhandax]

In case anyone thought I was just being the usual sarcastic me, here is proof. This is wrong, in so many ways......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/borg1/Foreignerticket.jpg

[632 Regal]

Sorry for the confusion, too many posts going on. Agreed it sounds like the VB.


Jeff, I have the 5HP30 which -sure seems like- got its fame from valve body failures. bubba966 is driving a 540 now, but he didn't say it was the car with the broken circlip holder. When I mentioned the circlip to Kirt, he said that sounds more like a 5HP18 and he couldn't remember one on a 5HP30. Add in the fact that my car has not thrown a single code (eliminating the trans ECU?) and it almost has to be the valve body, or at least that sounds like the way to bet. I did tell my tech if he sees metal in the pan, call me and don't even bother installing the VB. Just in case I'm the first.

As far as doing it myself, if it were a 4-barrel Holley that I could stand on both feet to remove for a rebuild, no problem. Since I started getting junk mail from AARP (knew I should have stayed away from that Foreigner concert they sponsored) I find I would rather get a root canal than work underneath a car. The last time I changed the trans filter on the Mercedes I got an oil shampoo. Long arms, a 12" deep ribcage, and jackstands make for pretty miserable working conditions on a crawler. Maybe I need to throw the jackstand boxes away. Seeing "Made in China" every time I have to trust my life to them doesn't help any.

[zhandax]

Information overflow; bane of life in the 21st century.

I did get some good news today. I parked in the only entrance to the garage, and the service manager told the new guy to bring the car in and find a place and added that it did not have reverse. The new guy must have felt he had something to prove, and he pulled forward a bit and then shifted into reverse and gunned it far enough to build enough pressure to kick the ball over to the reverse side. He pulled back in front of the office window and forward repeatedly until I gave him the finger horizontally across the neck to indicate we got it. I told the guy when he came in the office I did not do that because I knew it would slam the transmission when the ball moved over but once probably did no damage and it does indicate we are dead on with the VB. This also indicates that the ball did not get sucked through the hole so the 60 or 80 miles I put on the car since should not have done any damage to any clutch packs. I will know the entire story tomorrow, but so far it looks like this could have been worse.

One question; I forgot to ask Kirt if he sold replacement EEPROMs for the trans ECU mapped to the VB upgrades. My tech did manage to get one from the dealer mapped to the standard ZF upgrade package. Does Kirt do anything in addition to the standard ZF upgrades, or should the EEPROM from the dealer work?

[zhandax]

The car did need the valve body upgrade and the tech said when they changed the EEPROM they noticed that no one had ever been in there and the car still had the original chip. Apparently the required chip mapped to the upgrade is dependent on the trans serial number and mine was just past the first cutoff so he sent it back and got the correct one. The car runs great and the upgrade appears to have eliminated the rough 3-4 shift, although I will not say that with certainty until we get a cool night. It never was particularly harsh in warm weather but it is noticeably improved.

No metal in the pan and the tech said everything looked fine in there. All in all, it could have been worse.

[Tiger]

Congrats! What fluid did you use? When I did my valve body in 2001. I used the Penzoil Multi-Vehicle ATF... with this fluid, it really did smooth out everything. Also, when I did it, it seemed like almost everything drained out because I had to use 12+ quarts to bring it to level.

[zhandax]

I took a couple of gallons of Penzoil Multi-Vehicle ATF when I had the fluid and filter changed a couple of years ago and this time my tech had a 55 gallon drum of the stuff. I remember talking to him about it then but don't remember the details. He said that is the only fluid they use for the 5HP30s now.

[Tiger]

Ahh... okay. You should be fine... the shifting should firm up a bit rather than being buttery smooth. This multivehicle ATF is great for alot of tranny... even regular tranny.

I didn't do any tranny chip upgrade... I know only the engine chip has been updated.

[zhandax]

Since some posters report upgrading the valve body without improving the 3-4 shift it would be interesting to see how many had replaced the EEPROM. Makes you wonder how big a part that chip plays? My tech got the chip from the dealer and even if he marked it up it was only $25 but it apparently requires a little over an hour to change.

I have been taking it easy to let everything settle in but so far it shifts smoother than it has since I bought the car.