4HP22 torque converter seating question

[Dash01]

When seating the 4HP22 torque converter to an M30 535ia engine, I turned the TC by hand until it slipped into what seemed to be proper place. With the tranny in neutral, it would spin on its shaft. No leakage.

I placed the TC so one of its 3 nut fittings would be opposite the access hole (right side, lower) on the engine block.

Then, bolted the engine to the tranny. Engine snugged up against the tranny bell housing flange in symmetric fashion (flange surfaces parallel), with only a slight gap. So far, so good, apparently, and flange bolts went in smoothly.

Then, as engine was set at TDC, I noticed that although the engine access hole and one of the 3 the torque converter nuts may have been aligned, none of the flywheel holes were in the same alignment due to TDC engine placement. (gotta have TC nut, flywheel hole, and access hole all lined up to insert the bolt)

Turned the engine, thinking the flywheel triangle plate should be slightly and sufficiently clear of the TC nut fittings to allow non-binding rotation. It wasn't, but instead was binding. So, I had to slacken the bell housing flange bolts to create a small (~2-3mm) gap between bellhousing and engine block, thus allowing the flywheel triangle plate to clear the TC nut fittings for alignment. Then installed 3 flywheel/TC bolts, then tightened the bellhousing/engine flange bolts.

Having read horror stories of improperly seated TCs that destroy transmissions on startup, I'm worried. Various sources say there should be some (~2mm) end float between the properly seated TC and the flywheel triangle plate, lest aft pressure from the triangle plate damage the transmission pump or seals. The TC seemed properly seated, but before I start this sucker up, it seems prudent to ask for insight and advice.

Your thoughts on how to proceed?

Is there any way to check for proper TC seating without removing the engine from the car?

[shogun]

this is for a Landrover 4HP22-24
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/697900

[Dash01]

Thanks very much, Shogun.

Looking at the rear side of the TC, it has a shiny shaft with notches in the end, like notches in an arrow shaft to fit the bow string. These female notches are square and about ~10mm deep and fit corresponding male tabs on the internal transmission pump. So, when seating the TC, either the notches match the pump and the TC slides all the way back, or it doesn't. Is this correct?

But, other information says that when the bell housing and engine block flanges are fitted together, there should be ~2mm between the TC nut fittings and the triangular flywheel drive plate. If I understand correctly, the TC should be able to slide back and forth ~2mm before the bolts are installed and tightened. Is this correct?

Bentley says the triangular drive plate has indentations to fit the TC nut fittings, but my drive plate is flat with no indentations.

If my TC was not fully seated, then I assume its shaft notches would not have fit into the pump tabs, making the TC stand out ~10mm (notch depth), and making a ~10mm gap between engine block and bell housing flanges. My flanges came together OK, with no such gap. From this, is it safe to assume my TC was properly seated?

Transmission fluid: None drained out of mine, which was kept with the shaft in level (horizontal) position. Since none drained out, I didn't put any more in. Was that correct? And, if the fluid is low in the TC, is that replenished from the hollow central shaft from the transmission?

[ryan roopnarine]

i really doubt that 2mm is sufficient on any transmission, especially since you are complaining about binding. disclaimer: i've never done a 4hp22. try to turn the engine from the crank bolt. if you notice ANY unusual tension compared to when you took it apart, back the housing out as much as you can and disconnect flywheel/tc. on my 4l30e i had this problem. i only spun the tc until it made the first engagement or "drop" towards the tranny case. i found afterward that the tc engages the shaft in two stages. the first set of spins gets it down, but not enough. i had to spin it some more after the initial engagement to get it to finally seat. i don't think you should have to engage in any bellhousing antics to be able to rotate the tc to get it to align to the flexplate, simply turning the tc with your finger through the access slit and rotating the engine with a wrench should get the job done.

[Dash01]

Ryan, setting aside your caveat about not having worked on this particular tranny, and assuming it to be essentially the same as yours:

You mention a two stage seating sequence, where the TC goes mostly into place with the first spin, then seats a bit further in with more spinning. I've read from other sources about getting that second click. How much further into the tranny housing comes with a second click? How much more spinning of the TC is needed to get this?

And, if turning the engine by hand (in clockwise direction as seen looking rearward) by the big nut at the front, with the drive plate bolted to the TC, why wouldn't this action serve to do the final spinning of the TC into its second-click seated position? In other words, would turning the coupled engine/TC by hand be sufficient, without needing to pull the engine/tranny apart for further hand-turning of the TC for final seating?

[ryan roopnarine]

Ryan, setting aside your caveat about not having worked on this particular tranny, and assuming it to be essentially the same as yours:

You mention a two stage seating sequence, where the TC goes mostly into place with the first spin, then seats a bit further in with more spinning. I've read from other sources about getting that second click. How much further into the tranny housing comes with a second click? How much more spinning of the TC is needed to get this?

And, if turning the engine by hand (in clockwise direction as seen looking rearward) by the big nut at the front, with the drive plate bolted to the TC, why wouldn't this action serve to do the final spinning of the TC into its second-click seated position? In other words, would turning the coupled engine/TC by hand be sufficient, without needing to pull the engine/tranny apart for further hand-turning of the TC for final seating?

1) further in the second click...--It goes in a rather significant amount from engagement 1 to engagement 2. i'd approximate that it goes in the same distance from "free" to 1 as it does from 1 to 2.

2) turning the engine by hand...I don't have an official technical reason for what i'm about to say, but, from my observations, i'd say that engagement 2 is the only depth in which there is significant enough depth for the torque converter to "press in" and ride on the flywheel rather than ram itself against the flywheel. remember, the tq converter bolts are only required to be torqued to about 17lbft (on my transmission, i don't know what yours is). it is kind of paradoxical--the torque converter only needs to "ride" on the flywheel somewhat to transmit power, rather than be extraordinarly snug.

as for spinning the engine now--no, because (in my limited experience) if the torque converter is ramming the engine and preventing it from turning easily, it has likely gone in at an angle (however minute

engine->| \ <-torque converter
| \
| \

because of the nature of how you put the transmission in to position.

if you are really lucky, and you know for a fact that there is a second engagement on your particular transmission, i'd back the transmission out as far as the bolts will let it, until you can spin the tq converter with your fingers, and spin that sob for a solid minute or so (while pressing down on the converter with your other hand). you should get a good deal of excess space after you do this. if nobody else with hp22 experience chimes in, please fell free to pm me.

[shogun]

check here under transmission
http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/481en/index.htm

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

Did you clean the center dowel on the TC that mates into the crank shaft.

If it is all rusty, it will bind as you try to rotate the TC and replace the 3 bolts.

[whiskychaser]

I dont have the same tranny either but like yours my triangular flex plate doesnt have any indentations to take the TC. From what I can gather you only backed off the trany just enough so the captive nuts on the TC cleared the lip on the outside of the flex plate and lined up inside it. My only concern is you dont say if you levered the TC back to make sure it backed out with the tranny. But TBH I dont think 2mm is far enough for the TC to drop off. Provided you just pushed the tranny to close the gap and didnt use bolts to 'help' I doubt any damage is done. IMHO the auto box may be much heavier than a manual but you dont need all the huffing and puffing to fit it:D

[Dash01]

Thanks Shogun, Ryan, Blitz, and Whiskey! Your comments were right on the money, particularly the parts about two-stage seating of the TC and the proper gap between TC and triangular drive plate. Today I set a gap of ~6mm between tranny and engine flanges, to make plenty of space to rotate the TC back and forth. After some jiggling, it seated another ~6mm, such that when the flanges were re-bolted, it left a float gap of ~2-3mm between drive plate and TC nut tabs, just like Bentley et al say it should be.

Another thought: Per prior suggestions of folks smarter than me, it's vastly easier to remove the engine and tranny as a unit, then separate & rejoin and on the bench. Beats hell out of trying to reconnect those bolts from under the car.

[shogun]

Congrats, all learned something from your experience, thanks for the feedback.

[Dash01]

Congrats, all learned something from your experience, thanks for the feedback.


Back at you, Shogun. Your contributions of expertise, coupled with specific links to data and sources including factory shop manuals and illustrations, are invaluable to us. They are greatly appreciated by me and I'm sure every other lister on this website. THANK YOU!

Such insight is simply unavailable to most of us from any other source. For example, a friend in my small town owns an auto parts store, and his son is a senior repair technician at a major BMW dealership in the Seattle area. Helpful as these folks are, the body of knowledge on older cars such as E34 and E32 is increasingly scarce, as technicians of that vintage have now mostly moved on. In other words, even the factory-trained BMW guys are no longer on top of their game for such older cars, so listers on this forum in many cases are now probably the best source of such information.

[ryan roopnarine]

glad to be of help, if i was. i am happy to be able to save someone else the PITA of trying to mount their tranny wrong and possibly save a pump (unlike someone i know that had to take it all apart again and only figured out what was wrong when they reseated it separate from the car.....)


oh, and PS
good luck with the rest of the work that you have ahead of you getting your 3800lb paperweight moving again.

[Dash01]

Thanks Ryan. BTW, the most useful single piece of information that helped me was your observation that seating the TC is is two stage process. At a glance, one can see that the TC has those notches in its aft shaft, and that such would fit corresponding tabs on the tranny. What is not described in any literature that I found, however, is the two-stage process of fitment, leaving me working with the misconception that I'd properly seated the TC after only the first stage. Without your comments, I'd still be under the damn car in the driveway, teaching the neighborhood kids some new vocabulary my wife calls "Car Talk."


Glitches to note: 1.) Various printed sources describe the triangular drive plate as having indentations where the 3 bolts go through. My drive plate has no such indentations, but instead is completely flat. 2.) Shogun's excellent factory literature has a long list showing the dimensional inset of the TC on various ZF transmissions, which range from 22mm upward. In other words, the TC inset list refers to the depth of the geometric plane intersecting the TC nuts from the geometric plane of the bellhousing flange. So, depending on the number cast onto the upper left side of the tranny case, a given TC may be inset from the plane of the bellhousing flange by quite a bit. My tranny number does not appear on the printed list. Bentley E34 book makes no mention of this, other than to say the TC nuts should be inset from said flange plane. Best to keep in mind, however, that every tranny shown on that list has some TC inset. 3.) If separating tranny from engine, BMW has a special tool to keep the TC from sliding out from its seating and causing re-seating problems. Duct tape would probably work great for this.

[whiskychaser]

Thats some damn good information! I'd just add that you need the flat of the triangle on the flex plate at the top and stick something in one of the TC holes to line it up with the hole in the bellhousing - the stub of a pencil will do! When installing the tranny, I use a bit of threaded bar with a couple of nuts on to clamp to the edges of the bellhousing. That holds the TC in place until the gap between the bellhousing and engine is about 1/2" when it is removed.

[Dash01]

Thats some damn good information! I'd just add that you need the flat of the triangle on the flex plate at the top and stick something in one of the TC holes to line it up with the hole in the bellhousing - the stub of a pencil will do! When installing the tranny, I use a bit of threaded bar with a couple of nuts on to clamp to the edges of the bellhousing. That holds the TC in place until the gap between the bellhousing and engine is about 1/2" when it is removed.

Good point, Whiskey. Here's another little tip: Magnetize your 17mm socket so the three 17mm bolts that attach the drive plate to the TC will not fall down to the bottom of the bell housing. When it does, it'll be on the wrong (forward) side of the flywheel, without enough space to get it out of the 2"X3" inspection hole at the bottom. In such event, plan on using a magnet on a stick or string, aided by some good vocabulary.

Otherwise, I used an old Bic pen as an alignment dowel.

Another idea to keep the 17mm bolt from falling down would be to use a thin-wall sleeve or channel made of perhaps an old plastic bottle, to place under the bolt/socket wrench and catch the little bugger before it falls. Or, maybe tie a thread to the 17mm bolt shaft and tie the other end someplace secure, until the little bastard is properly engaged on the TC nut. These wonderful thoughts somehow came to me just after I just crawled out from under the goddamned car in the rain, fishing that little sucker out. You knew that.

[whiskychaser]

ROFL. An old BIC pen is exactly what I used :-) Magnetising the socket is a great idea. I used a bit of grease to stop the bolt falling out of the socket. Only drive you can get in there is a 3/8 and then you need a UJ to tighten it up. This stuff isnt in Bentleys!:D

[Dash01]

BTW, just in case my tranny (after all this effort) is toast, does anybody know if the 5 speed manual gearbox from a 1997 328i will fit this M30 engine and E34 car? Just wondering. Some gomer has one locally for $400, and the Cash for Clunkers deal ended last week, of course.

[Dash01]

OK, working in spare time on weekends, got the new engine all set up and she seems fine.

Put the car it in gear, both forward and reverse, and NOTHING. No nudge, no creep, no lurch. Nothing.

No fault indicators on onboard computer readout.

Tranny dipstick shows normal level, but the color of the stuff on the stick is basically clear, not red or brown.

So, having drained no tranny fluid during engine swap, I replaced none. I believe the torque converter was properly seated.

The car has been sitting for many months, so I'm wondering if a ball valve is stuck, or similar.

Your thoughts?

[ryan roopnarine]

was the unit a salvage, rebuild, or new?

if it was a salvage, what year car did it come out of?

[Dash01]

was the unit a salvage, rebuild, or new?

if it was a salvage, what year car did it come out of?

Tranny was the original in this '90 535ia, as was the torque converter.

Had a cracked block in the original M30 engine, so swapped in one from an early '90s 735ia with much less miles, and put my rebuilt head on it, since the head is effectively new. So, what I have now is the original '90 535ia head and tranny/torque converter mated to a 735i block.

Based on prior posts and messing around with it, I'm confident the torque converter was properly seated. No signs of leakage, no weird noises, no OBC fault readouts. Only problem is that shifting into drive or reverse gets no reaction whatever, which puts a definite cramp in my Fahrvergnugen, esp. when pushing the damn thing back up the driveway.

I don't think any fluid spilled out of the torque converter when I removed it from the old engine. Suppose it did spill: Wouldn't the pump fill it back up?

[shogun]

yes, the pump would fill it back, but it seems the pump is not working. Make a by pass line to see if the oil is pumped or not.

[genphreak]

... Only problem is that shifting into drive or reverse gets no reaction whatever, which puts a definite cramp in my Fahrvergnugen, esp. when pushing the damn thing back up the driveway.

I don't think any fluid spilled out of the torque converter when I removed it from the old engine. Suppose it did spill: Wouldn't the pump fill it back up?As Erich said, yes it would if it is working. Also be sure that the tranny is in gear- that the indicators say so on the dash and that the electrical connections are correct. Did you bring the ECU with the e32 block? I think they are different (and the tranny computers often are) and since they talk to each other, well you know the rest of the story, BMW change everything and tell noone except the guy that prints the part numbers on all those stickers that come off after a few years...

In short, check the ECU and tranny computer are correct for the trans and car (as opposed to the engine), and also that the gear selector is working and giving the right signals to the trans. Oh, and of course that the trans wiring harness didn't get damaged, is properly connected and not oxidised or oily inside, all proly stuff you've done.

How long did it run for btw? It might take a minute or two to fill the TC (which will drop fluid level in the trans well below the proper level (I think it is about 3L in the trans, 5L or more in the TC?). Could there be something to stop proper engagement that is level rather than just pressure related (?)) Here's hoping it is just that...

Great info btw, well done and keep it up. There is gold in this work you're doing- when you do get a project like this right, your BMW will always reward you :)

[ryan roopnarine]

when you get into the car and attempt to shift into reverse, do the rpms drop on the tachometer as they used to? i mean, in the same amount of time as they used to.

[Dash01]

As Erich said, yes it would if it is working. Also be sure that the tranny is in gear- that the indicators say so on the dash and that the electrical connections are correct. Did you bring the ECU with the e32 block? I think they are different (and the tranny computers often are) and since they talk to each other, well you know the rest of the story, BMW change everything and tell noone except the guy that prints the part numbers on all those stickers that come off after a few years...

In short, check the ECU and tranny computer are correct for the trans and car (as opposed to the engine), and also that the gear selector is working and giving the right signals to the trans. Oh, and of course that the trans wiring harness didn't get damaged, is properly connected and not oxidised or oily inside, all proly stuff you've done.

How long did it run for btw? It might take a minute or two to fill the TC (which will drop fluid level in the trans well below the proper level (I think it is about 3L in the trans, 5L or more in the TC?). Could there be something to stop proper engagement that is level rather than just pressure related (?)) Here's hoping it is just that...

Great info btw, well done and keep it up. There is gold in this work you're doing- when you do get a project like this right, your BMW will always reward you :)

As for ECU, etc., this is the original tranny and torque converter for this 535ia. The only thing new is the engine block, from a 735ia, so my original wiring and computer is still attached to the original tranny.

I ran the engine for ~25 mins. to warm it up for the final angle torque of the head bolts. Engine seems fine. No signs of leakage anywhere.

My kid was under the car disconnecting the tranny from the engine so we could do the engine swap, so perhaps he disconnected something besides the flange bolts and the exhaust pipes from the manifold. I'll ask when he gets back from camping.

The engine swap, btw, was made with the tranny in neutral, where it seems to have stayed.

[ryan roopnarine]

is there any clattering or chirping or weird pinging coming from the box? if you are sure that the fluid level is correct, you are still going to want to put the car in park at operating temperature, with e-brake on, turn the a/c on, and shift through each gear, stopping for about 10 seconds each, and reverse to park. do it a second time. as far as my practical experience is concerned, a rwd tranny won't move if the fluid is 2 or more quarts under. if you didn't fill the torque converter back when reinstalling it, it can quickly suck up enough fluid to make the car immobile.

ps...
also, remember that if you disconnected the cooler lines to remove the transmission, you probably lost a good deal of fluid in the lines as well as in the cooler--easily 1 quart. even if you didn't change fluid in the transmission, you will likely have to put more fluid in there.

[Dash01]

is there any clattering or chirping or weird pinging coming from the box? if you are sure that the fluid level is correct, you are still going to want to put the car in park at operating temperature, with e-brake on, turn the a/c on, and shift through each gear, stopping for about 10 seconds each, and reverse to park. do it a second time. as far as my practical experience is concerned, a rwd tranny won't move if the fluid is 2 or more quarts under. if you didn't fill the torque converter back when reinstalling it, it can quickly suck up enough fluid to make the car immobile.

ps...
also, remember that if you disconnected the cooler lines to remove the transmission, you probably lost a good deal of fluid in the lines as well as in the cooler--easily 1 quart. even if you didn't change fluid in the transmission, you will likely have to put more fluid in there.

Thanks, Ryan, I'll try that. The tranny cooler lines to the radiator were disconnected to pull the radiator out for space for engine removal, but lost very little juice in the process. Nor did I spill any out of the torque converter, which came out when the engine was pulled, then unbolted from the old engine and put back on the tranny before installation of the new engine. I hope I didn't bugger the tranny pump in the process, but there are no unusual noises, leaks, fault codes, etc.. Only problem is, when shifting into D or R, absolutely nothing happens. Do you suppose there's a multi-pin plug or linkage that got disconnected somewhere? Is there any such tranny-related plug coming from the wiring harness, along with plugs for the fuel injection, oil pressure, etc.?

[ryan roopnarine]

i don't know about your 4hp, but i'd guess you have a canon connector and a plug to the speed sensor, so 2. if you really notice no difference in rpm when shifting, i'd skip the preliminaries and route the output cooler line into a bucket and check for flow as shogun suggested.

[Dash01]

i don't know about your 4hp, but i'd guess you have a canon connector and a plug to the speed sensor, so 2. if you really notice no difference in rpm when shifting, i'd skip the preliminaries and route the output cooler line into a bucket and check for flow as shogun suggested.

Gonna do the bucket thing, tomorrow.

Meanwhile, revved up the engine and got TRANS PROGRAM or whatever.

What does that mean? Did stomp test several times, got no readout.

[whiskychaser]

Gonna do the bucket thing, tomorrow.

Meanwhile, revved up the engine and got TRANS PROGRAM or whatever.

What does that mean? Did stomp test several times, got no readout.
It means the EGS has found a fault with the tranny. It may be something as simple as a low battery but you cant find it out doing the stomp test. You need to have the codes read. List of codes:
http://www.e38.org/e32/bmw%20code%20defaut.pdf
Hopefully you have a friend with Carsoft or DIS and they can pop round and read them for you

[Mordan]

tough question

i'm interested as well.. since I plan removing an 4HP22. I"m still psychologically not ready to do the job..:)

[Dash01]

yes, the pump would fill it back, but it seems the pump is not working. Make a by pass line to see if the oil is pumped or not.

No flow whatever at the transmission to radiator hoses. Dipstick says the fluid is full, but not one drop of fluid came out of the radiator, so the transmission fluid that should be in the radiator is not there. No fluid came out of either of the hoses.

The new engine runs fine, but absolutely nothing happens when the transmission is shifted into D or P or N. No RPM change. Nothing.

The 4 pin electical connector from the engine to the transmission was checked again, and is properly seated.

The car sat for months. Could this problem be as simple as cavitation in the pump, a dry TC, or a stuck ball valve in the valve housing? If the TC were dry, would it still drive the pump? If a ball valve were stuck, would it allow the pump to add fluid to the TC?

Someone here had trouble with his transmission doing nothing, even though the dipstick said full. As I recall, he added lots of ATF until the transmission finally worked.

Thoughts?

[whiskychaser]

No flow whatever at the transmission to radiator hoses. Dipstick says the fluid is full, but not one drop of fluid came out of the radiator, so the transmission fluid that should be in the radiator is not there. No fluid came out of either of the hoses.

The new engine runs fine, but absolutely nothing happens when the transmission is shifted into D or P or N. No RPM change. Nothing.

The 4 pin electical connector from the engine to the transmission was checked again, and is properly seated.

The car sat for months. Could this problem be as simple as cavitation in the pump, a dry TC, or a stuck ball valve in the valve housing? If the TC were dry, would it still drive the pump? If a ball valve were stuck, would it allow the pump to add fluid to the TC?

Someone here had trouble with his transmission doing nothing, even though the dipstick said full. As I recall, he added lots of ATF until the transmission finally worked.

Thoughts?
I've fitted a TC both dry and full. In the case of the 'dry' one it just took a few moments to fill and I topped it up. The TC still drives the pump. You could have a blockage in the lines to/from the rad or a blocked filter. And I'm pretty sure there is a pressure valve in the VB. Did you manage to get any fault codes read? That would help no end

[Dash01]

I've fitted a TC both dry and full. In the case of the 'dry' one it just took a few moments to fill and I topped it up. The TC still drives the pump. You could have a blockage in the lines to/from the rad or a blocked filter. And I'm pretty sure there is a pressure valve in the VB. Did you manage to get any fault codes read? That would help no end


I have not found anybody around here with a fault code reader yet.

Question about the pressure valve in the VB: What side of the pump is it on? In other words, does it feel pressure coming from, or going to, the pump?

Can that valve body be easily and safely removed and then replaced from under the car, with the pan off for a new filter? I saw Shogun's YouTube video, which showed a bunch of corrosion due to water, so am wondering if this tranny may have similar problem--it sat for months in a wet climate. Fluid is basically clear to somewhat brown and not red, so perhaps absorbed moisture and caused a valve to stick.

When you had the TC off, question about the hollow shaft upon which it mounts, that comes forward out of the transmission: Is this shaft rigid, or does it wobble around a bit?

[whiskychaser]

I have not found anybody around here with a fault code reader yet.

Question about the pressure valve in the VB: What side of the pump is it on? In other words, does it feel pressure coming from, or going to, the pump?

When you had the TC off, question about the hollow shaft upon which it mounts, that comes forward out of the transmission: Is this shaft rigid, or does it wobble around a bit?
There was a deal on here for Carsoft at about £35. Ive actually got 2 plus a DIS one . So PM me if you really need one and you can have one for postage-I hate to see somebody struggling.
You have a different tranny from me but logic dictates it should be from the pump.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD68&mospid=47405&btnr=24_0657&hg=24&fg=15
That shaft is rigid and doesnt wobble about at all.
There is a lot of crap talked about auto trannies. Mostly by people who want to sell you one. Keep at it and you will either sort it or write it off:D

[Dash01]

There was a deal on here for Carsoft at about £35. Ive actually got 2 plus a DIS one . So PM me if you really need one and you can have one for postage-I hate to see somebody struggling.
You have a different tranny from me but logic dictates it should be from the pump.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD68&mospid=47405&btnr=24_0657&hg=24&fg=15
That shaft is rigid and doesnt wobble about at all.
There is a lot of crap talked about auto trannies. Mostly by people who want to sell you one. Keep at it and you will either sort it or write it off:D

Thanks, Whiskey, I may take you up on that offer.

Seems like the shaft would wiggle somewhat when I slipped the TC back on, so I wonder about that, and whether it would indicate a broken pump, etc., which would explain my lack of ATf flow through the radiator.

Also: Pins. The only tranny pins I'm aware of is the 4 pin twist-on electrical connection that mounts to a bracket just below the fuel hoses under the intake manifold. Connects an electric cable from the wiring harness with a 4 wire cable that goes back to the tranny in the left side. Others have written about 7 pins, etc.. Where?

[ahlem]

Dumb question from an e30 perspective...
Did the shift rod come out of the arm? The wonderclip that holds it on in a 325 can be a problem. I have mine apart right now and did lose transmission fluid all over the place when I took it out of the car attached to the engine. Hopefully It doesn't give me the same problems you are having. Got any suggestions for driveway cleaner?

[ryan roopnarine]

Thanks, Whiskey, I may take you up on that offer.

Seems like the shaft would wiggle somewhat when I slipped the TC back on, so I wonder about that, and whether it would indicate a broken pump, etc., which would explain my lack of ATf flow through the radiator.

Also: Pins. The only tranny pins I'm aware of is the 4 pin twist-on electrical connection that mounts to a bracket just below the fuel hoses under the intake manifold. Connects an electric cable from the wiring harness with a 4 wire cable that goes back to the tranny in the left side. Others have written about 7 pins, etc.. Where?


that sounds like your oxygen sensor cable.

[Dash01]

Dumb question from an e30 perspective...
Did the shift rod come out of the arm? The wonderclip that holds it on in a 325 can be a problem. I have mine apart right now and did lose transmission fluid all over the place when I took it out of the car attached to the engine. Hopefully It doesn't give me the same problems you are having. Got any suggestions for driveway cleaner?

If you mean where the shifter cable is clamped to that little arm on the left side, no, I don't think it came out: I crawled under car and had daughter shift back and forth a few times, little arm and cable moved accordingly.

Can the valve body be safely and easily removed and replaced from the tranny when the pan is off?

Would corrosion or crud accumulated from sitting for months cause one of the little pistons or balls to jam, preventing ATF flow through the pump and causing the tranny to be completely non-responsive when shifting?

Where is that 7 or 8 pin plug? If disconnected or disabled, would that cause the tranny to be completely non-responsive when shifting?

[whiskychaser]

Can the valve body be safely and easily removed and replaced from the tranny when the pan is off?

Would corrosion or crud accumulated from sitting for months cause one of the little pistons or balls to jam, preventing ATF flow through the pump and causing the tranny to be completely non-responsive when shifting?

Where is that 7 or 8 pin plug? If disconnected or disabled, would that cause the tranny to be completely non-responsive when shifting?
I'd say yes to the first two. If I have the correct tranny, EWD104 in Bentleys shows you have a hydaulic pressure regulator and a TC clutch solenoid valve in there. I'd think either of them not working would do the trick.
You may need a mirror but have a look up the side of the gearbox and see if you can spot the cable - its about 3/8". Obviously that leads to the socket:)
If thats disconnected it wont work. But IIRC you didnt drop the tranny? Maybe a bit late asking this but did the tranny work fine before the engine change?

[Dash01]

I'd say yes to the first two. If I have the correct tranny, EWD104 in Bentleys shows you have a hydaulic pressure regulator and a TC clutch solenoid valve in there. I'd think either of them not working would do the trick.
You may need a mirror but have a look up the side of the gearbox and see if you can spot the cable - its about 3/8". Obviously that leads to the socket:)
If thats disconnected it wont work. But IIRC you didnt drop the tranny? Maybe a bit late asking this but did the tranny work fine before the engine change?

Thanks again Whiskey--don't know what I'd do without you guys.

No, I didn't drop the tranny, so to my knowledge there's no reason that plug would have been disconnected or harmed. But, it was my kid under the car who unbolted the bell housing, etc. and he says he didn't mess with anything but bellhousing bolts.

The tranny worked fine before the engine swap, but then the car has been sitting outside for months, in a moist climate, so perhaps if transmission fluid is like brake fluid and absorbs moisture from the air, maybe moisture caused some internals to corrode and bind. (I get that idea from Shogun's valve body rebuild YouTube video, where they notice water in the VB, jamming the little pistons and ball valves.)

The transmission fluid is not red, but rather pretty clear. Is this a BMW thing, or does red ATF go clear with age? So, I'm hoping that dropping the pan and VB for cleaning with a new filter and ATF might fix this. That would sure beat removing/replacing the whole transmission, esp. if the pump is broken.

Also, I may backfill the cooler lines, which are apparently pretty dry and drip-less when disconnected. Presumably the radiator ATF section is also dry, as nothing drains from it, either. Could it be, such backfilling would prime the pump?

Does anybody have a good schematic drawing showing how ATF is supposed to flow through this system? What about one-way flow, or check valves that might jam? If so, could the pump draw all the ATF out of the radiator lines, then concentrate it in the tranny due to jammed or clogged check valve?

[Dash01]

I'd say yes to the first two. If I have the correct tranny, EWD104 in Bentleys shows you have a hydaulic pressure regulator and a TC clutch solenoid valve in there. I'd think either of them not working would do the trick.
You may need a mirror but have a look up the side of the gearbox and see if you can spot the cable - its about 3/8". Obviously that leads to the socket:)
If thats disconnected it wont work. But IIRC you didnt drop the tranny? Maybe a bit late asking this but did the tranny work fine before the engine change?

Thanks again Whiskey--don't know what I'd do without you guys.

No, I didn't drop the tranny, so to my knowledge there's no reason that plug would have been disconnected or harmed. But, it was my kid under the car who unbolted the bell housing, etc. and he says he didn't mess with anything but bellhousing bolts.

The tranny worked fine before the engine swap, but then the car has been sitting outside for months, in a moist climate, so perhaps if transmission fluid is like brake fluid and absorbs moisture from the air, maybe moisture caused some internals to corrode and bind. (I get that idea from Shogun's valve body rebuild YouTube video, where they notice water in the VB, jamming the little pistons and ball valves.)

The transmission fluid is not red, but rather pretty clear. Is this a BMW thing, or does red ATF go clear with age? So, I'm hoping that dropping the pan and VB for cleaning with a new filter and ATF might fix this. That would sure beat removing/replacing the whole transmission, esp. if the pump is broken.

Also, I may backfill the cooler lines, which are apparently pretty dry and drip-less when disconnected. Presumably the radiator ATF section is also dry, as nothing drains from it, either. Could it be, such backfilling would prime the pump?

Does anybody have a good schematic drawing showing how ATF is supposed to flow through this system? What about one-way flow, or check valves that might jam? If so, could the pump draw all the ATF out of the radiator lines, then concentrate it in the tranny due to jammed or clogged check valve?

[632 Regal]

Mattering on what tag is on the side of the trans it is possible yours dont take the red stuff. If the fluid is filled enough the pump should prime right away > 1 minuteish. What worried me is that you started it without the converter being in all the way. You initially said you had bout 2mm free on the bottom of the converter, and now you had about 3mm... Not sure what to make of this. Usually in removing the TC you will have a loss of fluid, especially in trying to get the sucker back together.

I think before you do anything more that you contact Kirt Kohller, he is like the ZF king: (800)624-3876 ext 5735
or direct at (616)748-5735

Good luck with this!

[Dash01]

Mattering on what tag is on the side of the trans it is possible yours dont take the red stuff. If the fluid is filled enough the pump should prime right away > 1 minuteish. What worried me is that you started it without the converter being in all the way. You initially said you had bout 2mm free on the bottom of the converter, and now you had about 3mm... Not sure what to make of this. Usually in removing the TC you will have a loss of fluid, especially in trying to get the sucker back together.

I think before you do anything more that you contact Kirt Kohller, he is like the ZF king: (800)624-3876 ext 5735
or direct at (616)748-5735

Good luck with this!

Thanks bro, that helps a bunch. I'll call Kirt.

I didn't start the car without the TC being in all the way. Rather, was buttoning it all back together with bellhousing/engine flanges mated, found slight (~1/2 mm) binding of drive plate to TC nuts, re-read horror stories about TC seating failures, so slackened the bellhousing bolts, jiggled the TC until it seated further so it now had ~2-3mm gap between TC nuts and drive plate with bellhousing/tranny flanges snug, then installed and torqued TC/drive plate bolts. The engine was turned by hand maybe a revolution or two in the process to line up the TC nuts with drive plate holes, rather than uber-torque at startup. No noises or leaks in the process.

Still, I could have buggered that pump either on re-assembly, or previously when pulling the engine apart from the tranny, with TC still bolted to engine drive plate. That was a mistake. No weird noises or crunches were heard in any of this.

Now, since the thing sat for months, I'm wondering if crud buildup in the valve body has frozen up some of the check valves, etc. preventing ATF flow. There is nothing dribbling out of the radiator hoses or radiator when hoses are taken off, so those lines and the radiator are presumably pretty dry. Dipstick says full. Cavitation at the pump?

I hope to sort this out, and share insights with all. I suspect that at least some ZF transmission failures in our cars may not have been so bad after all, and that some transmissions might be more economically fixed. Shugun's YouTube videos with keywords "E32 body valve" and similar vids. should be seen by all.

[whiskychaser]

Maybe its time to take stock. I'm sure the ZF guy will have some pointed questions:
What is the ZF tranny type and BMW long number off the plate?
Is the plate black or green?
Is the selector lever moving
Is the ATF the correct type and to correct level?
Is the filter clear or even recent?
Are there any fault codes?
Is it showing transprog?
I think your ATF should be Dexron III. Its normally red. Type of ATF and amounts are here:
http://www.crag.ch/downloads/OilReferenceGuide.pdf
You havent said as much but I think we have all been there: 'WTF? do I have to do it all again?' I hope not:) Yes I know its boring and methodical but humour me:D
Edit: After a bit of searching I've found you CAN get Dexron III in colourless form!