View Full Version : Can too much Oil kill Head Gasket?
I need to know if a garage who over filled my 540 with at least 9 ltrs of oil ,maybe more if they never removed the oil filter housing cover when draining oil may be legally liable for damages so I may seek recovery of the expenses of repairing ... got low coolant and billowing white smoke as the engine warms up the day after I had my car oil changed... I supplied two 5 litre bottles of LubraMoly 5w40 and they added nine litres.. I had them drain out some but they still left me with too much.. The shop was closing as it was in the evening so i drove off but can too much oil create conditions that can damage the head gasket? More importantly if yes ,how does this occur.. I may need to bring some explanation of the engine design and physics to support a claim for reimbursement.
Blitzkrieg Bob
10-03-2009, 05:56 PM
Too much oil will foam as it whipped up by the crank. It will also puts stress on the seals and create crankcase pressure that will cause leaks.
OIl foam will get drawn up into the intake via the vent and foul up everything as well.
Just run on down to another shop and get it done right.
What caused my coolant loss.? I was low about a quart of coolant. I ssumed the billowing white smoke coming from the tail pipe was coolant entering the combustion chamber... no chocolate milk on the dipstick yet or oil in the expansion tank but still.. I have towed the car to a shop and they'll check it out monday... just wondering how responsible ovevr filling with oil may be correctly attributable so if it is the cause of damage I can build a case for small claims court to try and recover any expenses...
bubba966
10-03-2009, 07:13 PM
Bob mentioned pretty much what happens when you've got too much oil in the block. It usually takes over 25% too much oil in the sump for the oil to get foamy like Bob mentioned.
As the M60B40 takes 8 quarts a 25% overfill would be 10 quarts or 9.46 liters.
But BMW engines are built to tighter tolerances so I don't know if the general 25% overfill rule would still apply to an M60.
If you did get your oil foamed up due to an overfill it could possibly lead to an overheating condition if the oil got foamed up so bad that it no longer properly lubricated the engine. You'd need to run it pretty hard like that to overheat it.
Don't think the overfill is related to the coolant/smoke issue. Not saying it's not possible for them to be related. Hope the shop (different shop?) finds that your headgasket is fine.
So I definitely didn't get an engine temp warning and the gage stayed at TDC at all times.. I drove the car fairly hard on about a 200 miles highway drive ,some 80 mph uphill runs in the Berkshire Mountains on I90 but there was nothing out of the ordinary by way of any odd smells , misfiring or excessive smoke I noticed.. Just the low coolant the following day and the billowing white smoke after warm up.. There's no smoke at start up. I was told to see if I could smell coolant in the exhaust, that it would be fairly obvious and I can't say I smelled any but I may have just been reluctant to take a whiff of exhaust or been psycologically predisposed to self deception as a defense mechanism..lol. Maybe I have a loose Radiator Hose clamp and some of that uphill gunning forced a bit of coolant to spray out and the smoke is the frothy oil burning and I have jumped to a more serious conclusion than I may find is true... it'd be nice .. thanks for the help.
632 Regal
10-03-2009, 08:35 PM
I would safely assume that extra oil wont kill a head gasket. 9 liters of oil is 9.5 quarts and if they drained some I don't see any problems at all. The smoke as it warmed could have been caused from the oil whipping up against the crank and really soaking the upstairs and then leaking past the valve seals over night. I don't see any correlation between the oil and water issue, different animals completely.
Ferret
10-04-2009, 06:38 AM
As with the other guys here, I doubt it's the head gasket...
If the oil's foamed from when they initially kicked it over after the change, there would have been shitloads of it in the breathers - you wont be able to inspect as it's all in the intake manifold and we know how much of a swine it is to get out.
I dont think I've ever heard of a 4.0 v8 M60 with headgasket failure - obviously it happens, but the engine isnt prone to it.
If there was a major coolant leak it'd run like an absoloute dog for the first few seconds after startup as there'd be water in there for the first couple of cycles.
Confirm by pulling your plugs and looking for steam cleaning.
Also: you sure the oil was the correct type/same type as in before the change - and this isnt an artefact of a cold morning bringing the dreaded winter steaming exhausts out? (I'd forgotten about the steam until we had a cold snap the other day, the 8 caused the car behind to disappear in a fog bank in traffic!)
I had Royal Purple 15w40 in there and added LubraMoly 5w40.. I didn't watch the oil change so perhaps the kid didn't open the oil filter housing when draining the oil? If he didn't replace the filter till after he drained and added oil and then at that added two literes too mnay there could still have been oil in the engine and there could have been ever more than the nine liters he added.. then if he did drain some out and still didn't open the oil filter housing there'd still be too much oil if all he drained was an estimated two liters.. and maybe a mix of 15w40 and 5w40 at that.. I suppose like I said the coolant loss could just have been a loose hose clamp.. The water pump and t stat are just six months old.. as is the radiator and upper rad hose. I did notice a smidge of antifreeze residue around the upper rad hose neck but couldn't be sure it wasn't there before and maybe I over looked it .. I've sure had that hose pop off the neck before several times and though the hose and radiator are six months old possibly the clamp was loose enough to allow some loss and i connected it with the smoke.. like I said its over at a reliable BMW trained Independant shop.. it'll get looked at tomorrow.. its be nice if all I had to do was clean the intake manifold ,drain some more oil and tighten a hose clamp...
It was in the 50's at the time so sure some of the discharge from the tail pipe is containing some steam but here's another thing I just recalled.. water dripping from the tail pipe.. more than I recall noticing ever in the past..again maybe the shock of the moment affected my focus and I just couldn't recall that water always drips from the tail pipe a little i just couldn't remember seeing it before.. water from the tailpipe not a concern? How's it getting into the exhaust?
Blitzkrieg Bob
10-04-2009, 01:35 PM
water from the tailpipe not a concern? How's it getting into the exhaust?
Condensation
you have no claim, give it up.
This question was already answered on another forum.
Too much oil will foam as it whipped up by the crank. It will also puts stress on the seals and create crankcase pressure that will cause leaks.
OIl foam will get drawn up into the intake via the vent and foul up everything as well.
Just run on down to another shop and get it done right.
Op's engine was overfilled by a quart or so and he is looking to get Pepboys to buy him an engine to replace his 200k unit that popped a head gasket.
Op's engine was overfilled by a quart or so and he is looking to get Pepboys to buy him an engine to replace his 200k unit that popped a head gasket.
That's some confabulation there, jack ass.. I said absolutley nothing of the sort .
I asked if there was a possible connection, that it was at the very least TWO LITERS and probably more if they didn't open the Oil Filter Housing when draining or redraining the oil in order to know weather or not I could sue the shop IF I can show their neglegence caused a problem.. I am already out for the cost of a rental car and the diagnostic cost at least will be a couple of hundred dollars if it proves the most begign outcome.. What exactly is your aim is creating this totally false impression here anyway? You have some personal beef with me? Why don't you PM me and discuss your issues? Or are you just a liar by nature?
If there is a clear and definite cause and effect I will most assuredly sue them for whatever it costs me to fix the problem they caused and why the hell shouldn't I?.. Weather that's a problem for you is of zero concern of mine..
Here is the thread
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1318732
I'll let everyone draw their own conclusion.
You recieved sound advice at that forum and also from the BMW mechanic you mention.
I supect you will ignore the good advice given as it is not the answer you want and persue another tack, hence shooting yourself in the foot and will later come back to the forums to whine about it.
Jack ass? Maybe, I just don't suffer fools well.
Here is the thread
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1318732
I'll let everyone draw their own conclusion.
You recieved sound advice at that forum and also from the BMW mechanic you mention.
I supect you will ignore the good advice given as it is not the answer you want and persue another tack, hence shooting yourself in the foot and will later come back to the forums to whine about it.
Jack ass? Maybe, I just don't suffer fools well.
.. I haven't received any conclusive diagnosis as of yet.. Two polar opposite OPINIONS have emerged.. I came here to hear ideas..
Tiger
10-04-2009, 02:53 PM
I would have to say it is not the case of head gasket. You need to do pressure test on the cooling system to see where it is leaking. You would be amazed where they leaks out as I got the same car and I did my pressure test.
As for the white smoke, my car used to have that problem and it was fixed with new coil spark plug boots. Zero smokes now. Raw fuel in cat converter will emit white smokes just like condensation but it keeps smoking like crazy after warm up period.
As for overfill, I don't think it damaged the engine with 200 miles... if you want, you can do a compression test but you don't have a previous compression test result to compare it to... Usually when overfilled and extensive driving, you might hear bearing noises ast he foam prevents proper lubrication... but that will also show up on the oil pressure dummy light as pressure is too low.
I would have to say it is not the case of head gasket. You need to do pressure test on the cooling system to see where it is leaking. You would be amazed where they leaks out as I got the same car and I did my pressure test.
As for the white smoke, my car used to have that problem and it was fixed with new coil spark plug boots. Zero smokes now. Raw fuel in cat converter will emit white smokes just like condensation but it keeps smoking like crazy after warm up period.
As for overfill, I don't think it damaged the engine with 200 miles... if you want, you can do a compression test but you don't have a previous compression test result to compare it to... Usually when overfilled and extensive driving, you might hear bearing noises ast he foam prevents proper lubrication... but that will also show up on the oil pressure dummy light as pressure is too low.
The shop will do a coolant pressure test. That was discussed.. when it is determined no other causes are discovered... I had new coil boots installed 30,000 miles ago.
How does raw fuel get into the cats? Excessive water condensation in the gas tank preventing complete ignition so some gets forced out thru the cats? The ambient temps have dropped below 50 F recently.. I filled the tank but maybe the gas station reseviours were also affected.. Contrary to Ross' wild and false assertions I'm not out to get soemthing for nothing.. If there is damage and it was caused by the shop's negligence I merely desire to be made whole. I'd expect anyone to feel the same and act in thir own interest.
As you may see from your own ideas which contrast to others who appear emphatic there has been an oil pressure triggered head gasket breach its an interesting question and I'l know more tomorrow.
I may suggest to the shop with my car that they first before starting the car,drain any remaining excess oil then start the car. The car will have sat unoperated then for about 2 and 1/2 days.. allowing as much oil to drip off the intake manifold as is possible and maybe after running a while If that was the source of the smoke it should diminish .
Tiger
10-04-2009, 06:10 PM
Unburned or raw fuel can happen with leaky fuel injector or even weak coil pack. This is easily checked by taking out the plugs and inspect the electrode coloration.
It is good that you got a shop who is working with you as they made the critical mistake of not checking the oil level before giving the car to you.
Unburned or raw fuel can happen with leaky fuel injector or even weak coil pack. This is easily checked by taking out the plugs and inspect the electrode coloration.
It is good that you got a shop who is working with you as they made the critical mistake of not checking the oil level before giving the car to you.
I explained in detail the car needed only seven liters.. I didn't just walk in say change my oil,its in the back seat and walk away.. I went thru as detailed an explanation about the notches on the bottle and the clear plastic strip which allows you to see where the level is in the bottle, how each bottle was Five liters, how the car only needed seven so they should add one full bottle then Two Liters from the second leaving three in the bottle.. I consume a little oil so I expected to have that to be adding for a few months to come.
I was shocked when getting my car back after the oil change when I asked the kid giving me the keys where the other bottle of oil was.. He replied there was hardly anything in it.. I said there should be three Liters in it as only two were to be added from the second five liter bottle.. He seemed to be unable to understand what I was saying . Not because English was not his native language but because his ability to comprehend the concept had been surpassed and he was probably experiencing the cerebral equivalent of a flat-line. I went straight back in and explained they had over filled my car by two liters.. It didn't occur to me at that time that these people may have been so intellectually bereft that they didn't know to take the cover off the oil filter housing before draining the oil in order that the full volume would be emptied . That was my fault for not assuming I was dealing with virtual sub-humans.. I admit it I was wrong to assume they had at least a basic level of comprehension to have been hired to work on cars even in the most simplistic of tasks in draining and filling a car with motor oil.
It was obvious I was irritating the ape-man behind the counter.. he seemed to be surprised I was using all these words on him.. like oil level and damage to my engine.. and do it again.. when I got the car back the second time it was near closing but i checked the dipstick again and it was still at the top of the plastic tip a full segment over full.. I've been going thru a little depression realizing how far humanity has fallen.. its a sobering, distressing realization that I have to be on the look out for people who outwardly appear to be human beings but are functioning on the level of animal or even plant life..
Bill R.
10-04-2009, 07:55 PM
Your oil capacity is 7.5 liters so if he had put in 9 liters then thats 1.5 liters overfilled.... You have kind of a windage tray in the m60 motor and i'm not sure how far you can overfill it before it even comes above the windage tray. I don't really think that 1.5 is enough to cause the crank counterweights or rod throws to hit the oil whipping it into foam,
just like the frother you use on your milk for a cappucino machine, but if it did then you would lose oil pressure and film thickness rather than blow the head gasket.
The oil when frothed up or whipped into a malt doesn't lubricate well. The oil pump picks up this foam instead of a solid stream of oil and bearings starve etcetera.
If you really overfill it and it whips up a lot then the crankcase pressure will rise and it can push oil out the front and rear main seals and possibly more oil will get picked up by the crankcase ventilation system and ultimately burned causing some smoking... 1.5 liters over not likely to cause it though.
I explained in detail the car needed only seven liters.. I didn't just walk in say change my oil,its in the back seat and walk away.. I went thru as detailed an explanation about the notches on the bottle and the clear plastic strip which allows you to see where the level is in the bottle, how each bottle was Five liters, how the car only needed seven so they should add one full bottle then Two Liters from the second leaving three in the bottle.. I consume a little oil so I expected to have that to be adding for a few months to come.
I was shocked when getting my car back after the oil change when I asked the kid giving me the keys where the other bottle of oil was.. He replied there was hardly anything in it.. I said there should be three Liters in it as only two were to be added from the second five liter bottle.. He seemed to be unable to understand what I was saying . Not because English was not his native language but because his ability to comprehend the concept had been surpassed and he was probably experiencing the cerebral equivalent of a flat-line. I went straight back in and explained they had over filled my car by two liters.. It didn't occur to me at that time that these people may have been so intellectually bereft that they didn't know to take the cover off the oil filter housing before draining the oil in order that the full volume would be emptied . That was my fault for not assuming I was dealing with virtual sub-humans.. I admit it I was wrong to assume they had at least a basic level of comprehension to have been hired to work on cars even in the most simplistic of tasks in draining and filling a car with motor oil.
It was obvious I was irritating the ape-man behind the counter.. he seemed to be surprised I was using all these words on him.. like oil level and damage to my engine.. and do it again.. when I got the car back the second time it was near closing but i checked the dipstick again and it was still at the top of the plastic tip a full segment over full.. I've been going thru a little depression realizing how far humanity has fallen.. its a sobering, distressing realization that I have to be on the look out for people who outwardly appear to be human beings but are functioning on the level of animal or even plant life..
Your oil capacity is 7.5 liters so if he had put in 9 liters then thats 1.5 liters overfilled.... You have kind of a windage tray in the m60 motor and i'm not sure how far you can overfill it before it even comes above the windage tray. I don't really think that 1.5 is enough to cause the crank counterweights or rod throws to hit the oil whipping it into foam,
just like the frother you use on your milk for a cappucino machine, but if it did then you would lose oil pressure and film thickness rather than blow the head gasket.
The oil when frothed up or whipped into a malt doesn't lubricate well. The oil pump picks up this foam instead of a solid stream of oil and bearings starve etcetera.
If you really overfill it and it whips up a lot then the crankcase pressure will rise and it can push oil out the front and rear main seals and possibly more oil will get picked up by the crankcase ventilation system and ultimately burned causing some smoking... 1.5 liters over not likely to cause it though.
What about if they didn't open the oil filter housing when draining ? Would that prevent all the resident oil from draining? 1.5 liters plus an unknown ,undrained amount left behind.. anyway I don't see a cause in what you've illustrated that accounts directly for the aproximately One Quart of Collant Fluid Volume loss which is what alerted me to some situation in the forst place... Wouldn't ruptured seals cause oil to leeak? Nothing appeared to be leaking from the engine ,eaither oil or coolant. Obviously the facts will be learned over the next couple of days I;m just trying to understand what may be happening. Not trying to contradict my mechanics findings if they differ from any prior guesses ...Thanks for chiming in.
Bill R.
10-04-2009, 08:15 PM
"What about if they didn't open the oil filter housing when draining ?"
Then you add about 1 more quart , i'm still not sure thats enough to harm it.
" Would that prevent all the resident oil from draining?"
Yes, the residual won't drain unless you take the filter housing top off.
" 1.5 liters plus an unknown ,undrained amount left behind.. anyway I don't see a cause in what you've illustrated that accounts directly for the aproximately One Quart of Collant "
None of this would account for the coolant loss, thats unrelated, maybe just maybe at 200k miles or 300k miles its time for that head gasket to give up the ghost...
"Fluid Volume loss which is what alerted me to some situation in the forst place... Wouldn't ruptured seals cause oil to leeak? "
Who said ruptured? I said push oil out the front and rear main seals, usually when the oil level returns to normal the seal stops leaking.
"Nothing appeared to be leaking from the engine ,eaither oil or coolant. Obviously the facts will be learned over the next couple of days"
Actually the facts may never be known, this isn't CSI and with that many miles many normal failures could have occurred
I;m just trying to understand what may be happening. Not trying to contradict my mechanics findings if they differ from any prior guesses ...Thanks for chiming in.. Edit, that didn't quite turn out the way i thought it would ... you'll be able to read it though.
632 Regal
10-04-2009, 10:23 PM
. Edit, that didn't quite turn out the way i thought it would ... you'll be able to read it though.
the guy above said it well enough to not go further.
whiskychaser
10-06-2009, 01:02 PM
Are we saying that if you fill the cylinders with oil it will blow the head gasket as that is the weakest point? I know of a case where somebody put the correct amount for a 7 litre diesel truck in a 1.6 car. Yeah it smoked like fck but no damage done. Why not call in somebody independant. We have the AA. Dont you guys have something like AAA? I'm all for the little guy winning for a change
Are we saying that if you fill the cylinders with oil it will blow the head gasket as that is the weakest point? I know of a case where somebody put the correct amount for a 7 litre diesel truck in a 1.6 car. Yeah it smoked like fck but no damage done. Why not call in somebody independant. We have the AA. Dont you guys have something like AAA? I'm all for the little guy winning for a change
The car was taken last Friday evening to a shop owned by a BMW trained mechanic. Formerly working as a BMW Dealership tech he now owns his own shop. He did all the engine gasket resealing for me last April. His receptionist told me to have the car there for Monday morning ... she was mistaken. He hasn't even touched it as of This afternoon and she couldn't tell me when he'll get to look at it... At this point I am wiped out from all the stress I've been handling since early September over another matter and I have no idea when I'll hear what he's been able to find.. I had been expecting since Friday I'd know by this time today and the mistake on scheduling has just been the last straw. I could have taken the car to another local BMW specialist had I been told my car would possibly sit for a week before anyone looked at it.. if its just a matter of too much oil causing the smoke and the coolant leak was just a loose hose clamp and I put them together to guess a Head gasket had blown I"ll be only slightly relieved as I;ll also have wasted a few hundred dollars on alternate transportation for nothing.. ever had a stretch of time where it seemed whatever it was you wanted or even needed to do was met with opposition of one sort or another? Everything seems to have just fallen into the crappier all of a sudden.. Quite strange to me and incredibly stress inducing since I rely on my car to make a living..
whiskychaser
10-06-2009, 01:44 PM
I know its your car not mine. But what you are doing is winding yourself up like a clock. If they fkd your car up then imho they should pay for it. Simple. Lets not be technical for a minute. Is it 'it was ok before but I think they put too much oil in it and its broken now :-('?
I know its your car not mine. But what you are doing is winding yourself up like a clock. If they fkd your car up then imho they should pay for it. Simple. Lets not be technical for a minute. Is it 'it was ok before but I think they put too much oil in it and its broken now :-('?
Well it was fine before and I mean exceptionally fine.. I drive ir virtually daily several hundred highway miles with not a whisper of an deviation from correct operation.. They most definitely did add too much oil. Its not my conjecture. I gave them two Five Liter Bottles. The car takes 7.5 liters. The remaining bottle had one liter remaining and the dip stick showed oil above the top of the plastic tip when it belongs just to the Top Notch so I had to assume there was at least 1.5 liters too much added. I immediately went back in and told them to drain out the excess oil.. it still after that showed oil up the the top of the plastic tip of the dipstick.. so however much that is I drove away .. The car does consume some oil and the valve cover gaskets were just 30,000 miles old.. I was uncomfortable driving off but they were about to close the store and I didn't think they'd drain any more.. When I got the low coolant warning I wasn't immediately alarmed . I looked for a leak, a loose hose clamp etc..added about a quart of water and started it.. let it run a minute or two then began to rev the throttle a little ,stepped back and noticed a substantial amount of white smoke billowing out from the tail pipe and my first thought.. which for good or ill is actually usually correct was the head gasket had failed and I was seeing coolant burning off ... these two things, the loss of coolant over night and excessive smoke were all I noted.. The car started up normally, ran smoothly,no misfires no loss of power so maybe I jumped into panic mode but we'll see.
I just spoke with the shop who this morning couldn't tell me when they'd look at it and the car was at that time finally up on a lift and being inspected.. I will hear from them within an hour or so for an update.
Got the update.. Loose Coolant Hose on the Expansion tank was apparently the cause of the coolant loss.. The pressure test done after tightening so far shows the system holding pressure.... they will keep the pressure on over night and see how it looks in the morning but they say it isn't looking like a Head Gasket failure .. They said they didn't get all that much smoke. I suggested if the excess oil had been whipped to any degree and coated the intake manifold it may have been dripping into the chambers thru intake valves and after three days sitting that had substantially dripped off and wasn't therefore an ongoing source of excessive smoking.. I am tentatively releaved contingent upon tomorrow's findings..lol..
BennyM
10-06-2009, 10:32 PM
Haha! I love this. Totally feel your dumbfounded frustration. Did you draw them a diagram? Perhaps they're "visual learners."
Haha! I love this. Totally feel your dumbfounded frustration. Did you draw them a diagram? Perhaps they're "visual learners."
I kept waiting for him to stop me while I was explaining how to check the level along the side of the bottle but it was like his face was gradually turning to stone...lol..like I had suddenly begun speaking in Klingon... or had just begun mouthing words and not actually saying anything which would have accomplished just about as much... I'll be sourcing my oil change shops more rigorously from now on...
mikell
10-07-2009, 09:44 AM
Just re-read Bill R's post and get on with life.
ryan roopnarine
10-07-2009, 10:26 AM
IIRC a suggested overfill for doing track events is 1 quart, i doubt that 1.5 quarts in a system that can fit 7.5 is going to do that much damage.
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