Elec windows - no ignition

[ss2115]

Interesting problem.

Have an electric window that powers itself open when the ignition is turned on and won't go back up to close.
The only way to close it is to hold the key over in the lock and use the "comfort" feature.

As I didn't want to drive everywhere with an open window until I figured the problem out, I took out fuse #17 from under the bonnet which is marked Electric Windows. Its only a brown 7.5 amp fuse - small??

But without this fuse, there is no ignition and the engine won't start. ie: the dash doesn't spring to life with all the indicators and lamps etc, and there is no starter.

Put the fuse back in and everything returns to normal including the window opening itself again!

I can understand that the window problem might be the switch unit or wiring short or something, but whats with removing the fuse and losing the ignition circuit?
The only thing I can think of is that the fuse #17 is only 7.5 amps and so must be the electric window controller or something like that rather than the motor fuse (which I would expect to be around 25 - 30 amps). So maybe the GM or the DDE or something is refusing to allow the engine to start as it thinks the car is "unsafe".

Any ideas?

[shogun]

Fuse #17 is according to this
http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/BMW/e34/e34_93.pdf
-engine control system 7.5A
-charging system
-start
-EML 6-cylinder cars
-E-box fan
-eletronic transmission control
-slip control (ABS)
-ZKE (central chassis control) doorlock heating (TSH)
-ZKE power windows (FH)
-ZKE sunroof (SHD)
-central body electronics (ZKE)
-ZKE headlight washer (SRA)
-instrument cluster/check control (K/CC)
-cruise control (TEMPOMAT)
-on-board computer system (OBC IV)


A shot in the dark: maybe a broken wire loom somewhere.
And as yours is a Touring, I would start searching at the rear door/trunk lid, and the area around A-pillar/door
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fVoSkrnCCycvDhrAY4A04Ih4l5k2TGxc
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fVoSkrnCCyf2etzqmszsrIh4l5k2TGxc

[ss2115]

Fuse #17 is according to this
http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/BMW/e34/e34_93.pdf
-engine control system 7.5A
-charging system
-start
-EML 6-cylinder cars
-E-box fan
-eletronic transmission control
-slip control (ABS)
-ZKE (central chassis control) doorlock heating (TSH)
-ZKE power windows (FH)
-ZKE sunroof (SHD)
-central body electronics (ZKE)
-ZKE headlight washer (SRA)
-instrument cluster/check control (K/CC)
-cruise control (TEMPOMAT)
-on-board computer system (OBC IV)


A shot in the dark: maybe a broken wire loom somewhere.
And as yours is a Touring, I would start searching at the rear door/trunk lid, and the area around A-pillar/door
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fVoSkrnCCycvDhrAY4A04Ih4l5k2TGxc
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=fVoSkrnCCyf2etzqmszsrIh4l5k2TGxc

Thanks Shogun.
I was just going by the label on the underside of the fuse box lid - its lists Electric Windows as fuse#17.

Thanks for the PDF - I don't have this one and it looks like a good one to have.

best regards,

[shogun]

make sure the production date fits, here are the others
http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/BMW/e34/
on page 1 they always indicate from production month.... tilll....

I have made a print out of all the relay drawings and locations as well as the fuse list and have it in my car, needed often. Also take the time to go thru the complete ETM, that is very valuable info, also component location info and drawings and component location pictures with info of every single connection on your car.

[ss2115]

Interesting development.
The comfort feature doesn't always close the windows like I said - sometimes nothing happens even when holding the key over for a long time.
But then I found accidently that if I open and close any of the other three doors (but not the drivers door), then the comfort feature works immediately and the windows go up and close.

At first I thought "ah-ha" - I found a break or short in the loom from pillar to door, but not so because any door opened and closed seems to reset or allow the comfort feature to work.

And I know its not the looms to the tailgate because I checked both of them early this year while replacing the gas struts to the window glass and they are both perfect.

So now I'm worried it might be the General Module. It doesn't seem to be the windows switch block in the centre consol because I've unplugged it and the problem is still there exactly the same.

Anyone?

[shogun]

But then I found accidently that if I open and close any of the other three doors (but not the drivers door), then the comfort feature works immediately and the windows go up and close.

I would search once more in direction of a broken wire there, even if you checked it before. But as you describe it, moving doors changes situation.
also inside the doors, see here left rear door damage
http://www.pagaduan.org/bmwe32/Kabelbruch_Tuer_links_hinten.htm

Do you have a spare GM? I can check if I have one in stock

[genphreak]

Check the RM for bad solder joints for sure- its the easiest thing to do. Also, for corrosion under the RM/GM box. Is it absolutely dry under there? The crimped connectors underneath, and the sockets they feed are critical to proper operation. :) Nick

[ss2115]

Check the RM for bad solder joints for sure- its the easiest thing to do. Also, for corrosion under the RM/GM box. Is it absolutely dry under there? The crimped connectors underneath, and the sockets they feed are critical to proper operation. :) Nick

Thanks Nick - I'll check properly.
I had the rear seat up a few times to take out the windows fuse and it looks dry and clean under there, but I wasn't looking deep into the well. No reason to suspect water though as the weather here has been dry and warm for quite a while and I haven't washed the car either.

Its also strange that opening and then closing any of the other three doors lets the windows close.
So I get out of my car, close the drivers door, open the rear door and close it, then put the key in the drivers door lock and turn and hold it, crouching down to see through the window to the other side to make sure the passenger window goes up before walking away from the car.

RM is Relay Module isn't it. Do you mean to open it and look for dry joints inside like I did for the Gerneral Module a while ago to fix a stop lamp out message that continually came up. Shogun steered me to that one and I touched all the joints around the chip he indicated.

[shogun]

RM = relay module. Basically the relay module is executing the orders of the brain = the GM. All goes GM>RM>switch or rleay or microswitch.

This is in German language about the ZKE = centraol chassis electronics. ZKE controls all what is your problem

wiper
window washer system
headlight and foglight washer system
wiper/ pressure system
interior lights
doorlock heating
central locking system
window and sunroof system
electronic power control

on page 2 the abbreviations are
WS wiper system
WA = washer system
SIR intensive washer system
SRA = headlight and foglight washer system
ADV = wiper pressure system
IB = interior light system
TSH = doorlock heating
ZV = central locking
ZS = Zentralsicherung = central safety system

FH = Fensterheber = window regulating system
SHD = SchiebeHebedach = electric sunroof


From page 40 = Funktion Fensterheber und Schiebehebedach = function windows and sunroof
http://pok.atw.hu/index_elemei/home_elemei/letoltes_elemei/EDC%20-%20Central%20Chassis%20Electronics.pdf

there is a function diagram.
Print this out all, and then type it and try to get a translation in English. Unfortunately I do not have an English version.
This is from E32, but should also be valid for E32.
That is from a training manual for BMW technicians training courses.

Page 46-48 shows the function diagram windows
49 sunroof

diagnosis page 50

Page 51 shows the overload protection for the GM/RM
overload protection for locking/windows/sunroof/TSH


The relay switches off when
-there are more than 60 seconds <36A, or
-more than 0.3 seconds a A between 36A and 60A or (overload)
-longer than 0.1 seconds more than 60A flows (short circuit)

see page 52/53

Automatic switch off of the overload relay is after 60 seconds, but only when the power consumer was switched off respet. when there is no short circuit.
Automatic switch on can be repated 6 times. The lock is switched off via terminal 15.

To avoid this overload the windows can only be operated 2 at a time!
In case more than 2 switches of the window control are pushed, only the first 2 actions will be executed. In case 2 windows under operation exceed the value, one window will be switched off. Windows in front have priority.
(page 53)

[ss2115]

RM = relay module. Basically the relay module is executing the orders of the brain = the GM. All goes GM>RM>switch or rleay or microswitch.

This is in German language about the ZKE = centraol chassis electronics. ZKE controls all what is your problem

wiper
window washer system
headlight and foglight washer system
wiper/ pressure system
interior lights
doorlock heating
central locking system
window and sunroof system
electronic power control

on page 2 the abbreviations are
WS wiper system
WA = washer system
SIR intensive washer system
SRA = headlight and foglight washer system
ADV = wiper pressure system
IB = interior light system
TSH = doorlock heating
ZV = central locking
ZS = Zentralsicherung = central safety system

SHD = SchiebeHebedach = electric sunroof


From page 40 = Funktion Fensterheber und Schiebehebedach = function windows and sunroof
http://pok.atw.hu/index_elemei/home_elemei/letoltes_elemei/EDC%20-%20Central%20Chassis%20Electronics.pdf

there is a function diagram.
Print this out all, and then type it and try to get a translation in English. Unfortunately I do not have an English version.
This is from E32, but should also be valid for E32.
That is from a training manual for BMW technicians training courses.

Page 46-48 shows the function diagram windows
49 sunroof

diagnosis page 50

Page 51 shows the overload protection for the GM/RM
overload protection for locking/windows/sunroof/TSH


The relay switches off when
-there are more than 60 seconds <36A, or
-more than 0.3 seconds a A between 36A and 60A or (overload)
-longer than 0.1 seconds more than 60A flows (short circuit)

see page 52/53

Automatic switch off of the overload relay is after 60 seconds, but only when the power consumer was switched off respet. when there is no short circuit.
Automatic switch on can be repated 6 times. The lock is switched off via terminal 15.

To avoid this overload the windows can only be operated 2 at a time!
In case more than 2 switches of the window control are pushed, only the first 2 actions will be executed. In case 2 windows under operation exceed the value, one window will be switched off. Windows in front have priority.
(page 53)

Thanks Shogun. An absolute goldmine of information as usual.
best regards,

[genphreak]

Yep. RM is one to check always. Your problem seems to be input related, that's why I suspect the low power connections to the GM- or the GM itself, esp if you've had trouble w it in the past. You need to hunt for water under there- its hard. Feeling down around the lowest section isn't possible, you have to undo the 10mm plastic retaining nuts with a 10mm extension/ratchet and lift the whole plastic frame (carefully so as not to crack it anywhere). You should inspect the underneath of the plugs that locate in the bottom of the frame if you have any cause for concern. BTW: water in there can last for years... hope it goes well!

Maybe swapping out the GM for someone elses would help narrow it down.

[ss2115]

All fixed now.
Removed the GM and the RM and after inspection returned them and everything was okay.
Took them out again and cleaned the connection with contact cleaner and replaced.
Everything seems back to normal.

Thanks for all the suggestions - much appreciated.