1994 525iT steering frozen at temperatures below 30

[werminghausen]

I have a problem since 2 years with steering at lower temperatures (below freezing). When the car starts in the morning steering is very stiff and hard to manage, almost if there were no power steering at all. Then after 5 miles driving the steering becomes slightly better, after may be 10 or 15 miles it seems to be back to normal.
I have exchanged the PS fluid and filter with no change.
I also loosened the screw at the steering box slightly with no outcome at all.
During spring summer and fall when temperatures are moderate above freezing I have no problem at all.
Does anyone have an idea what the problem might be? Is it a bad steering box and what would cause freezing of the steering in the box?
Martin

[genphreak]

If below zero you may need non-standard fluid, but your car proabaly has LAD,no? What are you using? Are you running green CHF11S? The system takes some 2-3L (I think), how old is it? Have you checked the sintered filter in the resovoir for blokcages (it is easily replacable btw)?

If not all that, I've read about similar problems being from pipe restrictions someplace... that's right on the height adjusting valve sitting on the rear stabilizer bar. I don't think I have a link, you might need to keep hunting... sorry.

[werminghausen]

My car doesn't have the rear height adjustment. I have regular struts in the car. My PS pump is simply feeding the steering box.
I have changed the PS fluid 2 times now- using standard PS fluid- and also the filter. Non of that is causing the problem in my opinion. The problem is 100% temperature related and temperatures below 32 F are not uncommon in places in this country. I also believe there is no restriction in the lines.
What are chances that the steering box is bad somehow. Does anyone have experience with operation of the steering box. What can cause the steering box 'freeze' at lower temperatures.

Martin



If below zero you may need non-standard fluid, but your car proabaly has LAD,no? What are you using? Are you running green CHF11S? The system takes some 2-3L (I think), how old is it? Have you checked the sintered filter in the resovoir for blokcages (it is easily replacable btw)?

If not all that, I've read about similar problems being from pipe restrictions someplace... that's right on the height adjusting valve sitting on the rear stabilizer bar. I don't think I have a link, you might need to keep hunting... sorry.

[sal_park]

Hi,

probably not that much help, but I experience exactly the same thing with my M50 525 at temps lower than 4C. One other thing I think is happening is that my vanos is not working which I believe gives me less torque at tick over to the extent it's possible to almost stall the engine by making sharp input on the steering. This is probably irelevent though.

sal

[werminghausen]

Sal
You are the first one saying that you have the same problem! Thanks
Vanos and Power Steering are not directly related. I guess my Vanos is not working properly either (it is making 'the noise' and rings haven't been exchanged yet- I am planning to reman Vanos next year).For the frozen steering my guess is still that the steering box is not working properly.
Is there anyone who knows about the steering box. Can the steering box be resealed or remanufactured somehow?
Martin



and
Hi,

probably not that much help, but I experience exactly the same thing with my M50 525 at temps lower than 4C. One other thing I think is happening is that my vanos is not working which I believe gives me less torque at tick over to the extent it's possible to almost stall the engine by making sharp input on the steering. This is probably irelevent though.

sal

[bubba966]

Sounds like your PS fluid is too thick at cold temps. Have you been putting synthetic PS fluid in?

Seems like the PS pump isn't able to push enough fluid through the system when it's really cold out. I'd first try to find a different PS fluid that's thinner at lower temps, most likely a synth fluid (not CHF11S as that's synth hydraulic fluid).

Or you could need a new PS pump.

Did your touring originally have SLS and it was partially deleted? Meaning do you have an SLS PS pump rather than a regular PS pump, but the SLS has been disabled?

[BennyM]

It does sound like the wrong PS fluid or a failing PS pump to me.

sal_park: When you say, the engine just about stalls, do you mean that putting heavy load on the power steering system causes the engine idle to drop? If so, once you've stopped turning the wheel, does it jump back up and waver for a few seconds before it finds the normal 600-700 RPM spot? If so, mine does that from time to time as well and I haven't heard any odd VANOS noises. I always figures it was a vacuum leak causing that. hmmmm.

[philbyil]

Hi Martin,

Just a quick question : Is your system Pentosin or ATF?
Just asking in case you may have mixed it up!! It has happened before.





I have a problem since 2 years with steering at lower temperatures (below freezing). When the car starts in the morning steering is very stiff and hard to manage, almost if there were no power steering at all. Then after 5 miles driving the steering becomes slightly better, after may be 10 or 15 miles it seems to be back to normal.
I have exchanged the PS fluid and filter with no change.
I also loosened the screw at the steering box slightly with no outcome at all.
During spring summer and fall when temperatures are moderate above freezing I have no problem at all.
Does anyone have an idea what the problem might be? Is it a bad steering box and what would cause freezing of the steering in the box?
Martin

[werminghausen]

Hi
I have changed PS fluid 2 times after I had the problem. I put synthetic PS fluid in and I have synthetic in right now. I am pretty sure that the problem is not caused by the fluid ...or my synthetic fluid sucks... but I doubt it.
If people are saying it is the PS pump..what can cause the pump working less efficient in cold temperatures? Martin



Hi Martin,

Just a quick question : Is your system Pentosin or ATF?
Just asking in case you may have mixed it up!! It has happened before.

[werminghausen]

I am having synthetic PS fluid in - from Autzone..may be Valvoline.
But after changing the old nasty fluid to new one there was no difference. The problem still exists.
Is there a thinner PS fluid? Typically PS fluid is very 'thin' no matter if synthetic or not..
New pump: what could cause the pump doing such thing at lower temperatures? I don't min changing the pump...but what if it doesn't change anything?
Who else has the same problem?
Martin




Sounds like your PS fluid is too thick at cold temps. Have you been putting synthetic PS fluid in?

Seems like the PS pump isn't able to push enough fluid through the system when it's really cold out. I'd first try to find a different PS fluid that's thinner at lower temps, most likely a synth fluid (not CHF11S as that's synth hydraulic fluid).

Or you could need a new PS pump.

Did your touring originally have SLS and it was partially deleted? Meaning do you have an SLS PS pump rather than a regular PS pump, but the SLS has been disabled?

[werminghausen]

Well

I don't know exactly what Pentosin is. I assume it is hydraulic oil and for the self leveling system. I have no self leveling system in the rear, so I assume I can take simple ATF or PS fluid from anywhere?
But it can be that the previous owner has changed the self leveling to regular struts? How can I see this?
Martin



Hi Martin,

Just a quick question : Is your system Pentosin or ATF?
Just asking in case you may have mixed it up!! It has happened before.

[Rick L]

Pentosin is brand. I use Pentosin LTF-2 oil for my manual gearbox (BMW OEM fluid for manual trans.) They also make hydraulic fluid and such.


Well

I don't know exactly what Pentosin is. I assume it is hydraulic oil and for the self leveling system. I have no self leveling system in the rear, so I assume I can take simple ATF or PS fluid from anywhere?
But it can be that the previous owner has changed the self leveling to regular struts? How can I see this?
Martin

[bubba966]

What does it say it requires on the lid for the fluid reservoir?

[Rick L]

PS fluid? Aren't you supposed to use ATF for power steering in E34? I use Mobil 1 ATF synthetic oil for my power steering and no issues even well below 0 degree F.


I am having synthetic PS fluid in - from Autzone..may be Valvoline.
But after changing the old nasty fluid to new one there was no difference. The problem still exists.
Is there a thinner PS fluid? Typically PS fluid is very 'thin' no matter if synthetic or not..
New pump: what could cause the pump doing such thing at lower temperatures? I don't min changing the pump...but what if it doesn't change anything?
Who else has the same problem?
Martin

[genphreak]

x2. Understand what the pump is designed to pump first. See the owners manual for your car **or** even better the reservoir cap. If you have deleted the LAD suspension, it will require pentosin CHF11S- and you should drain and flush to that. Other thing that can cause it is replacing the high pressure line, some people over-tighten the banjo bolt- it can deform and restrict flow.

If the engine is stalling at startup/low temp warmup that could be a temperature sensor or other low temp issue... :( I had PS failure once at all temps, was weird, turned out to be a loose belt- they can perhaps slip if they have ice, oil, condensate on them.

Have you checked the tightness tensioner operation? They can go fail. Are all the belt pulleys in good shape? Are all their bearing caps in place? How old is the 6PK-1565mm serpentine belt?

[Ross]

Your fluid is old and broken down. Change it and the filter if your car has one.
been there, this is all you need.

[werminghausen]

x2. Understand what the pump is designed to pump first. See the owners manual for your car **or** even better the reservoir cap. If you have deleted the LAD suspension, it will require pentosin CHF11S- and you should drain and flush to that. Other thing that can cause it is replacing the high pressure line, some people over-tighten the banjo bolt- it can deform and restrict flow.

If the engine is stalling at startup/low temp warmup that could be a temperature sensor or other low temp issue... :( I had PS failure once at all temps, was weird, turned out to be a loose belt- they can perhaps slip if they have ice, oil, condensate on them.

Have you checked the tightness tensioner operation? They can go fail. Are all the belt pulleys in good shape? Are all their bearing caps in place? How old is the 6PK-1565mm serpentine belt?

I still need to figure out if my car was designed for the self leveling system.
How can I identify?
Assuming yes- then it I'd have the wrong fluid in ...and it might be an explanation. However what be the difference between Pentosin and ATF?

My belts are all tight and good. No slipping.

[werminghausen]

Your fluid is old and broken down. Change it and the filter if your car has one.
been there, this is all you need.

Again
this was my initial reaction too when I first experienced this problem. I changed the fluid and the reservoir with no change at all. I put synthetic PS fluid in- problem is continuing
Martin

[werminghausen]

What does it say it requires on the lid for the fluid reservoir?

I just dug up the old reservoir. It says clearly : ATF only !
So my assumption is that the car came without the self leveling system.

Further assumption: The reason for bad performance at low temperatures is either the pump or the PS gear box. Any suggestions?
Martin

[philbyil]

If you have checked the drive belt and it is tensioned correctly.
Go get about 4 litres of ATF fluid and suck out your old fluid (it could be Pentosin!).
You can use a turkey baster to suck it out.
Refil the reservoir with the new ATF.
Start your engine and turn the wheels lock to lock a couple of times. Then suck out the fluid. Refill with fresh ATF and, again, do the lock to lock with the engine on.
Do this about 4 times and you will replace a lot of the old fluid.
Provided your pump is not shot, this SHOULD clear out most of the old fluid......

[genphreak]

Plastic type reservoirs are often ATF, the CHF11S one has a sticker (a green ring) on the top. CHF7.1 ones have a yellow ring (Beware: they come off with age). e34s with metal reservoirs (almost... ) always use CHF11S. e32 had more exceptions to this rule than e34. e23/24/26/28 I don't think used CHF11S much (but there were some with LAD whihc would have. Anything with LAD or SLS will use CHF11S and share a modified power steering pump, as it is best to use the one very high pressure hydraulic circuit (which is why they use CHF11S). From BMW's POV, the only expensive bit in this approach is the multi-purpose HP Pentosin oil.

Since you are not using the reccommended fluid, you should try swapping your synthetic ATF (is that what you are using- not synthetic something else?) to Mercon or Dexron.

I don't think it can be your steering box. Pump maybe... but I'd be surprised if it was. You can probably get a $20 kit for it from www.pskits.com (http://www.pskits.com).

[werminghausen]

Interesting- good call
I will try again replacing the fluid with 4L of ATF.
As I said before I replaced the fluid 2 times now- but may be not enough. I have Valvoline synthetic fluid in right now.
What makes you believe I had the Pentosin in the car?
Of course if the car was originally a Pentosin car and was converted then there might be a problem... me putting PS fluid in. I can exchange the fluid several times in order to make sure that the fluid is clean and not mixed . I guess with this I can eliminate the question of mixed fluid.
I have the question for the ones who know. How can I know that my car originally had the self leveling system and using Pentosin? What are the indicators?
Martin

in
If you have checked the drive belt and it is tensioned correctly.
Go get about 4 litres of ATF fluid and suck out your old fluid (it could be Pentosin!).
You can use a turkey baster to suck it out.
Refil the reservoir with the new ATF.
Start your engine and turn the wheels lock to lock a couple of times. Then suck out the fluid. Refill with fresh ATF and, again, do the lock to lock with the engine on.
Do this about 4 times and you will replace a lot of the old fluid.
Provided your pump is not shot, this SHOULD clear out most of the old fluid......

[werminghausen]

Plastic type reservoirs are often ATF, the CHF11S one has a sticker (a green ring) on the top. CHF7.1 ones have a yellow ring (Beware: they come off with age). e34s with metal reservoirs (almost... ) always use CHF11S. e32 had more exceptions to this rule than e34. e23/24/26/28 I don't think used CHF11S much (but there were some with LAD whihc would have. Anything with LAD or SLS will use CHF11S and share a modified power steering pump, as it is best to use the one very high pressure hydraulic circuit (which is why they use CHF11S). From BMW's POV, the only expensive bit in this approach is the multi-purpose HP Pentosin oil.

Since you are not using the reccommended fluid, you should try swapping your synthetic ATF (is that what you are using- not synthetic something else?) to Mercon or Dexron.

I don't think it can be your steering box. Pump maybe... but I'd be surprised if it was. You can probably get a $20 kit for it from www.pskits.com (http://www.pskits.com).


I have the black round plastic tank from ZF. There were no labels at all.
Again the question what are indicators that the car was a Pentosin car originally?
I think the fluid that I have now in the tank is synthetic Valvoline PS fluid.
Someone recommended to flush with 1 gallon of AFT. Probbaly a good recoommendation . I'll do this with ATF Dexron III.
This will make sure I don't have any mixed fluids. And go form there.

[genphreak]

Best to just drain the fluid at the lowest point in the system if you want to efect a full change. I think that is the lowest line on the steering box, but it might be the pump, just look.
Of course if the car was originally a Pentosin car and was converted then there might be a problem..
Easy to do, just look at the lines going to the steering box. Do any follow the (US drivers side) rail back under the cabin to the rear? LAD deleters usually just replace the rear shocks and join the hydraulic lines at the back near where they reach the subframe. Sometimes they leave the height switch which operates off the sway bar and even the accumulators, both of which are very obvious.

Or do a VIN check. Or goto www.realoem.com (http://www.realoem.com) and enter yor car's VIN to see if the parts listings show LAD components as valid for your car, or simply the conventional shocks. This is in no way as reliable as looking in the flesh- and realoem is often incorrect/vague or simply hard to work out ;)

[Mr._Graybeard]

GM rack-and-pinion systems had problems like this for years -- it even acquired a name: "morning sickness." The seals in the steering gear hardened and let fluid leak internally when cold, robbing the system of its power boost. Once the fluid warmed up a bit, it restored some flex to the seals and power boost returned.

Is the steering equally stiff turning in each direction?

[werminghausen]

GM rack-and-pinion systems had problems like this for years -- it even acquired a name: "morning sickness." The seals in the steering gear hardened and let fluid leak internally when cold, robbing the system of its power boost. Once the fluid warmed up a bit, it restored some flex to the seals and power boost returned.

Is the steering equally stiff turning in each direction?


Yes..my steering is equally stiff in each direction and each position no matter how far you turn the wheel.


So could it be that my steering gear box is damaged?
This sounds like a possibility? The symptoms you describe are exactly the same with my car.
Is there anyone who knows about a defect of the steering box? Most of the people say that it is not very common that the steering box fails.

I feel a bit awkward because hardly anyone does report the very same problem on their BMW. But if there are more people- who else is experiencing the same problem on the BMW??



Martin

[werminghausen]

I put the car on ramps and inspected from below.
The oilpump has 2 lines- definitely not 4
There is no line going to the rear axle
There is not a trace from the LAD on the rear axle.
I have regular struts.
I believe there was never any LAD on this car.
And it seems to be weird if any Pentosit were in the system at all.
Anyway I'll flush again and use up to 1 gallon of ATF just to make sure that the fluid is clean. And I'll report back.

[Tiger]

I took a look at the onlne auto parts... seems like you got traditional steering system rather than rack & pinion system... so it is either your power steering pump or your steering gearbox... it is most likely the pump need to be rebuilt.

Check the belt tensioner for that includes power steering and make sure it is nice and tight.

[Mr._Graybeard]

Yes, the car in question has a gearbox rather than a rack, but all steering systems have some similar basic components -- seals, pressure-relief valves,etc. -- that the hydraulics require to operate.

Anyway -- Tiger's thinking PS pump, I'm guessing steering gearbox. Either way, fairly big bucks to fix -- not something that you want to just throw parts at. You could try another fluid change -- it's cheap, and if it doesn't work you aren't out much.

There's one other option, considering that you've been living with this for a couple of years. There are a number of additives you can put into a PS system that can soften up the seals a bit and restore some elasticity -- Lucas and Bar's Leaks are a couple of manufacturers. It's not a repair, but it might make the condition a little more bearable.

[Bo525i]

I just noticed that my steering is kinda stiff´ish after a night of 14 fahrenheit, but driveable and it thawed out after 5 minutes! :)

[bsell]

GM rack-and-pinion systems had problems like this for years -- it even acquired a name: "morning sickness." The seals in the steering gear hardened and let fluid leak internally when cold, robbing the system of its power boost. Once the fluid warmed up a bit, it restored some flex to the seals and power boost returned.

Is the steering equally stiff turning in each direction?

Would this not hold true for the pump also? Same seals and age...

I was voting for gummed up pressure relief valve or something similar. Seems strange something could gum up with so much detergent in ATF, but it does happen.

I thought our pumps had a hex head fitting on the bottom that was the drain point for the system? My car is 'talking' more in the mornings this winter. I figured on swapping out the fluid for fresh Dexron with the next oil change...I've seen a fluid swap silence a screaming p/s pump, plus its such a cheap 'fix.'

[werminghausen]

I took a look at the onlne auto parts... seems like you got traditional steering system rather than rack & pinion system... so it is either your power steering pump or your steering gearbox... it is most likely the pump need to be rebuilt.

Check the belt tensioner for that includes power steering and make sure it is nice and tight.

I can re insure that belt is nice and tight. Is there an explanation what is wrong with the pump. I mean if the pump couldn't produce the correct pressure or would leak I'd understand. But not working correctly below freezing point but above that I still don't understand.
Martin

[werminghausen]

Yes, the car in question has a gearbox rather than a rack, but all steering systems have some similar basic components -- seals, pressure-relief valves,etc. -- that the hydraulics require to operate.

Anyway -- Tiger's thinking PS pump, I'm guessing steering gearbox. Either way, fairly big bucks to fix -- not something that you want to just throw parts at. You could try another fluid change -- it's cheap, and if it doesn't work you aren't out much.

There's one other option, considering that you've been living with this for a couple of years. There are a number of additives you can put into a PS system that can soften up the seals a bit and restore some elasticity -- Lucas and Bar's Leaks are a couple of manufacturers. It's not a repair, but it might make the condition a little more bearable.

The gearbox is my bet also because I don't understand what the pump could make causing this problem. Good idea trying to put a Lucas conditioner in.
Is this the same conditioner used for the transmission?
Martin

[werminghausen]

I just noticed that my steering is kinda stiff´ish after a night of 14 fahrenheit, but driveable and it thawed out after 5 minutes! :)

Thanks for reporting this - It might be the same problem just that your cat is still operational and symptoms less severe. After a night with 14 F I could hardly turn the wheel at all- my wife couldn't. The problem is getting worse with lower temperatures.
I'll try and exchange ATF again and if this doesn't help I'll try a conditioner Lucas or BG.
Martin

[bsell]

Thanks for reporting this - It might be the same problem just that your cat is still operational and symptoms less severe. After a night with 14 F I could hardly turn the wheel at all- my wife couldn't. The problem is getting worse with lower temperatures.
I'll try and exchange ATF again and if this doesn't help I'll try a conditioner Lucas or BG.
Martin

It was harder to turn than if it was manual steering only, right? If so, that sounds like the internal valving that controls the steering assist is sticking and pushing hydraulic pressure the opposite way it should. This causes you to fight the pump and its high pressure.

I feel you are getting into 'unsafe to drive' territory with this cold weather. Please be careful.

[Tiger]

Where is ths internal valving? Gearbox?

[bsell]

Where is ths internal valving? Gearbox?

Yes.

[Tiger]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-POWER-STEERING-GEARBOX-GEAR-BOX-525-535-525i-535i_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem45ef1255afQQitemZ3 00363699631QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcc essories

Affordable on ebay... way way way cheaper...




Dirt cheap for used
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-Steering-Gear-Box-525-535-525i-535i-E34-parts_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem562e611ca2QQitemZ 370145303714QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAc cessories

Interesting... I looked up BMA and they sell servotronic gearbox... way more expensive but there is also a replaceble servotronic valving that mounts right on the gearbox... user replaceble... for under $300... see if you have this box.

[sal_park]

Left of field suggestion: could something else be wrong, say strut top mounts colapsed ? Why not try putting the front on axel stands and see how much resistance there is to turning the steering wheel with the engine off ? Should be very easy to turn. I'm thinking this because although my steering get stiffer when it's cold, it not enough to want to do anything about it.


Sal

[werminghausen]

It was harder to turn than if it was manual steering only, right? If so, that sounds like the internal valving that controls the steering assist is sticking and pushing hydraulic pressure the opposite way it should. This causes you to fight the pump and its high pressure.

I feel you are getting into 'unsafe to drive' territory with this cold weather. Please be careful.

Absolutely- My car is harder to steer than a car without PS.
Do you think the internal valve in the gear box that you describe is sticking due to temperature? Do you think that there might be water in the system? Or is it some rubber seal getting very inflexible?

[werminghausen]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-POWER-STEERING-GEARBOX-GEAR-BOX-525-535-525i-535i_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem45ef1255afQQitemZ3 00363699631QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcc essories

Affordable on ebay... way way way cheaper...




Dirt cheap for used
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-Steering-Gear-Box-525-535-525i-535i-E34-parts_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem562e611ca2QQitemZ 370145303714QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAc cessories

Interesting... I looked up BMA and they sell servotronic gearbox... way more expensive but there is also a replaceble servotronic valving that mounts right on the gearbox... user replaceble... for under $300... see if you have this box.

Thanks. Yes I think I'd need hydro steering gear # 32131141813 according Realoem. Very interesting. I have found photos from someone who has taken the gear box apart - but it is in German

[BennyM]

Fascinating. So, couldn't he then disable the power steering by removing the belt to check if it is actually worse with the pump pressurizing the system? Might be worth a look.



It was harder to turn than if it was manual steering only, right? If so, that sounds like the internal valving that controls the steering assist is sticking and pushing hydraulic pressure the opposite way it should. This causes you to fight the pump and its high pressure.

I feel you are getting into 'unsafe to drive' territory with this cold weather. Please be careful.

[bsell]

Fascinating. So, couldn't he then disable the power steering by removing the belt to check if it is actually worse with the pump pressurizing the system? Might be worth a look.

Exactly!

This is a fine way to see if there is something mechanically binding or 'frozen' at the colder temps vs. something fishy in the power steering assisty system.

How to run the car without the serpentine belt is another issue...

[bsell]

Absolutely- My car is harder to steer than a car without PS.
Do you think the internal valve in the gear box that you describe is sticking due to temperature? Do you think that there might be water in the system? Or is it some rubber seal getting very inflexible?

It is worth testing the steering first thing in the morning. Try to turn the wheel with the engine off and see if it is different than when the car is warm but the engine off.

Other folks reminded us to do the mechanical checks, i.e. ball joints, tierod ends, etc. by doing the no-load (front end in air) tests.

I figured that part was good as the car was/is fine in warmer weather, but this all could be a mechanical binding deal outside of the power steering system.

Plus those checks don't 'cost' anything!

[BennyM]

Well, cooling the car shouldn't be a concern given the weather. An extra battery connected in parallel might substitute for an alternator. And really, the engine doesn't have to run for very long....just long enough to test the steering resistance.


Exactly!

This is a fine way to see if there is something mechanically binding or 'frozen' at the colder temps vs. something fishy in the power steering assisty system.

How to run the car without the serpentine belt is another issue...

[werminghausen]

It is worth testing the steering first thing in the morning. Try to turn the wheel with the engine off and see if it is different than when the car is warm but the engine off.

Other folks reminded us to do the mechanical checks, i.e. ball joints, tierod ends, etc. by doing the no-load (front end in air) tests.

I figured that part was good as the car was/is fine in warmer weather, but this all could be a mechanical binding deal outside of the power steering system.

Plus those checks don't 'cost' anything!

Good idea.
I just have no clue what could bind steering so hard because this then has to do with freezing water.... Someone mentioned strut mounts- well? my strut mounts are 1 year old (have new Bilsteins in), ball joints (here even if the rubber leaks- I don't know if ice can cause such resistance) tierod?
I just doubt that any mechanical resistance can cause this problem.
I am almost certain that the problem has to do with the gear box but I am thinking about testing.

[Mr._Graybeard]

The gearbox is my bet also because I don't understand what the pump could make causing this problem. Good idea trying to put a Lucas conditioner in.
Is this the same conditioner used for the transmission?
Martin

Lucas has a product specifically for use in power steering systems, but I wouldn't be surprised if its formula was pretty close to its transmission product.

[Bill R.]

If your read the factory lubrication specs they call for pentosin chf 7.1 in cold climates such as canada...I'd say Boston would probably qualify right now as well.. from 9/87 to 9/91 canadian cars had a factory fill of pentosin chf 7.1 from 9/91 they use pentonsin chf 11. You can't mix these fluids with conventional power steering fluid or atf so if you switch flush it all out before you add pentosin to it.
Also have you checked the belt tension in the morning when its cold? if its loose it will slip alot and provide no assist but once the belt heats up it will grab better. Probably has no splash shield on the bottom either to keep water/ice off the belts and pulley

[Mr._Graybeard]

Would this not hold true for the pump also? Same seals and age...

I was voting for gummed up pressure relief valve or something similar. Seems strange something could gum up with so much detergent in ATF, but it does happen.

I thought our pumps had a hex head fitting on the bottom that was the drain point for the system? My car is 'talking' more in the mornings this winter. I figured on swapping out the fluid for fresh Dexron with the next oil change...I've seen a fluid swap silence a screaming p/s pump, plus its such a cheap 'fix.'

Agreed, a fluid change can make a difference sometimes. Plus, there's the filter in the reservoir to consider, replacement of which means replacing the PS reservoir -- the plastic ones, anyway. Not BMW's finest hour, design wise, although not it's worst, either.

There are some poppet valves in steering gears (box or rack) that provide pressure relief when the wheels are turned to full lock. They could be leaking or gummed up (or the pressure relief valve in the pump), I suppose, but the question is, why do things return to normal when the fluid warms up? Heat doesn't dissolve sludge, usually. To me, that's a sign that a normally elastic internal part is not sealing until it warms up a bit and elasticity is somewhat restored. But hey, we're all guessing. Could be in the box, could be in the pump. IME, failing pumps tend to get noisy, as there are parts moving at high speed. As for the drain on the pump, you could be right, I've never looked for one.

[Mr._Graybeard]

If your read the factory lubrication specs they call for pentosin chf 7.1 in cold climates such as canada...I'd say Boston would probably qualify right now as well.. from 9/87 to 9/91 canadian cars had a factory fill of pentosin chf 7.1 from 9/91 they use pentonsin chf 11. You can't mix these fluids with conventional power steering fluid or atf so if you switch flush it all out before you add pentosin to it.
Also have you checked the belt tension in the morning when its cold? if its loose it will slip alot and provide no assist but once the belt heats up it will grab better. Probably has no splash shield on the bottom either to keep water/ice off the belts and pulley

Hm, that's interesting. I remember from my Audi days that a lot of Pentosin 7.1 equipped cars from the 1980s would inadvertently get topped off with ATF -- the result was a lot of leaking steering racks . Hope OP Martin's PS system hasn't had lengthy exposure to atf if it came filled with Pentosin! On the bright side, it's not an Audi.

[bsell]

Good idea.
I just have no clue what could bind steering so hard because this then has to do with freezing water.... Someone mentioned strut mounts- well? my strut mounts are 1 year old (have new Bilsteins in), ball joints (here even if the rubber leaks- I don't know if ice can cause such resistance) tierod?
I just doubt that any mechanical resistance can cause this problem.
I am almost certain that the problem has to do with the gear box but I am thinking about testing.

True, it is a rare ball joint or tie rod failure that binds when cold. Usually, they fail due to excessive clearance, giving knocking symptoms. But it is possible to have a rusty/crusty joint/end that 'breaks free' after a little use.

I'm still leaning to the steering gear box, but the ball joint/tie rod end fix is probably much cheaper...but pretty easy to diagnose.

[Bill R.]

I finally got my prntscrn function to work. Here's the screenshot from the lube manual on the steering





Hm, that's interesting. I remember from my Audi days that a lot of Pentosin 7.1 equipped cars from the 1980s would inadvertently get topped off with ATF -- the result was a lot of leaking steering racks . Hope OP Martin's PS system hasn't had lengthy exposure to atf if it came filled with Pentosin! On the bright side, it's not an Audi.

[werminghausen]

I was driving this morning and I am getting more alert. It was not that cold , around 30F, and the steering was stiff as always (wheel wouldn't return in a curve if released) it is hardly getting any better while driving...probably after 20miles. I can hear the belt making noises once in a while after pushing the gas. Could this be an indication that the pump needs to work harder...so that the belt is slipping?

I had a stop for 30 minutes after 20 minutes of driving and after the stop all was back to normal.
I believe that the warm engine is warming up the pump next to the engine without the cold wind when driving.
My bet is it is the steering gear box.
I might try and heat up the gear box somehow tomorrow morning.. may be with a fan...and then see if car drives without a steering problem from the beginning.
Martin

[Bill R.]

No, thats an indication that your belt is too loose and its slipping or the viscosity of the fluid is too high ,but at 30F thats not so likely so i would check the belt tension first.




I was driving this morning and I am getting more alert. It was not that cold , around 30F, and the steering was stiff as always (wheel wouldn't return in a curve if released) it is hardly getting any better while driving...probably after 20miles. I can hear the belt making noises once in a while after pushing the gas. Could this be an indication that the pump needs to work harder...so that the belt is slipping?

I had a stop for 30 minutes after 20 minutes of driving and after the stop all was back to normal.
I believe that the warm engine is warming up the pump next to the engine without the cold wind when driving.
My bet is it is the steering gear box.
I might try and heat up the gear box somehow tomorrow morning.. may be with a fan...and then see if car drives without a steering problem from the beginning.
Martin

[sal_park]

No, thats an indication that your belt is too loose and its slipping or the viscosity of the fluid is too high ,but at 30F thats not so likely so i would check the belt tension first.

Given it's a late 525 (looking at your sig) you've got a ribbed belt that is tenioned with a belt tentioner which could have gone bad.

[werminghausen]

I was heating up the gear box this morning with a hair dryer for 1/2 hour. ambient temperature was around 26F.
The purpose of the fan was to bring the temperature of the box above freezing.
After warming up the steering box there was no steering issue. Steering as it should be. I am sure now there is no mechanical problem with steering/ ball joints or such.
It must be a problem inside the steering box if temperature dropes below freezing. My theory is that the radiation of the engine ..when it is warm is warming up the steering box and then all gets back to normal.
Or it might be the oil pump?
However I have no idea what can go wrong in the steering box to cause this issue.
Someone said it might be an internal valve.....but why is this valve acting normal in higher temperatures? I can't really find an explanation.
Does someone have the parts of the steering box?
I was reading that one reason why steering might need more force are 1) mechanical problems
2) internal leaks in the steering box
3) pressure / oil volume of oil pump is not sufficient.
if 1) is not true the 2) and 3) might still be true.

What can go bad in pump or hoses or steering box causing the problem?
Exchanging what component do you think will solve the problem?

[werminghausen]

Given it's a late 525 (looking at your sig) you've got a ribbed belt that is tenioned with a belt tentioner which could have gone bad.

I have a relatively new belt on the car. I also don't think that the tensioner is faulty. But you are right that it is suspicous. Can it be that the pump has to work much harder when cold (assuming a frozen steering box) and therefore the
pump has much more resistance and will cause a slipping belt?

[bubba966]

So you've been putting PS fluid in when you reservoir says it takes ATF?

[werminghausen]

So you've been putting PS fluid in when you reservoir says it takes ATF?

i have been putting in first Synthetic PS, I believe Valvoline, the I have put in ATF Dexron. Made no difference at all.
What difference does ATF make versus synthetic PS fluid?
I don't think the problem is fluid related at all.

[werminghausen]

I am thinking buying a use steering gear box on ebay for $75 and try it out.
What do you guys think?
Is it complicated to change the gear box?

[werminghausen]

Does any one know the components of the gear box very well?
Is there a chance that some water is trapped somewhere that freezes and causes the trouble?
I am just very amazed that warming up the gear box by a couple degrees make the problem go away....
Any specialist for the gear box?
Martin

[Dave M]

Does any one know the components of the gear box very well?
Is there a chance that some water is trapped somewhere that freezes and causes the trouble?
I am just very amazed that warming up the gear box by a couple degrees make the problem go away....
Any specialist for the gear box?
Martin

I have a used steering box from a 91 525 im. If it will work (I haven't checked pn's etc.) and you'd like it, let me know and we can make a deal.

pm also sent.

Dave

[Bill R.]

Dave, its the same part number unless one of you has servotronic and the other doesn't



I have a used steering box from a 91 525 im. If it will work (I haven't checked pn's etc.) and you'd like it, let me know and we can make a deal.

pm also sent.

Dave

[genphreak]

Just one thing... check your belt is correct. It should be a 6PK-1550-1570mm long. My touring had a 1500 fitted incorrectly by the PO's 'mechanic'. This caused severe slippage in the cold as the loop around the tensioner was coming from the bottom pulleys, not in form the side the way it should (and has to if you use the right belt).

Left of field but worth checking. Also, is the column nut behind the firewall too tight, or the grub screw to tight on the top of the PS box? Maybe try backing it off a single turn and checking again. Some owners tighten this to get more feel, but they don't know when to stop- and your conditions could precipitate these symptoms.

[Dave M]

Dave, its the same part number unless one of you has servotronic and the other doesn't

To werminghausen, I do not have servotronic and need to know if you do in order to determine whther you can use my steering box.

I'm posting outside of our pm's in order to solicit advice on how to determine whether you have servotronic. Any takers?? I don't have my VIN handy to seee if realoem will figure it out.

Oh, where are you located?

Thanks Bill for the tip.

Dave

[bubba966]

i have been putting in first Synthetic PS, I believe Valvoline, the I have put in ATF Dexron. Made no difference at all.
What difference does ATF make versus synthetic PS fluid?
I don't think the problem is fluid related at all.

It might run the same now, but I'm wondering if running PS fluid in there when you should've been running ATF has damaged any of the seals or other internals.

[bubba966]

To werminghausen, I do not have servotronic and need to know if you do in order to determine whther you can use my steering box.

I'm posting outside of our pm's in order to solicit advice on how to determine whether you have servotronic. Any takers?? I don't have my VIN handy to seee if realoem will figure it out.

Was servotronic offered on non-M spec E34's? I know some M5's had it, though it was uncommon in North American M5's. And any Nurburgring suspension package car (3.8 M5's, M540i's, 540i M-Sport's, 540iLE's) had it.

Not really heard much mention of servotronic other than from some of the M5 guys over on the M5board.

[werminghausen]

Just one thing... check your belt is correct. It should be a 6PK-1550-1570mm long. My touring had a 1500 fitted incorrectly by the PO's 'mechanic'. This caused severe slippage in the cold as the loop around the tensioner was coming from the bottom pulleys, not in form the side the way it should (and has to if you use the right belt).

Left of field but worth checking. Also, is the column nut behind the firewall too tight, or the grub screw to tight on the top of the PS box? Maybe try backing it off a single turn and checking again. Some owners tighten this to get more feel, but they don't know when to stop- and your conditions could precipitate these symptoms.

I am confident that I have the correct size belt- I'll put a new one on just to make sure...My current belt might be 2 years old but I am 100% sure that the belt isn't the issue.
I am also confident that the big nut can't be the problem and I am almost optimistic that the 'steering play adjustment screw' isn't the problem either because it is a mechanical adjustment of play in the gear (teeths are alightly conical and therefore the play can be adjusted in reduced range even if ZF is recommending against it) This mechanical play doesn't react very much on temperature change or a couple degrees.
I am looking for a reason why the steering makes this problem and I haven't found a logical reason yet.
Can water be trapped somewhere in the steering box? Can someone who knows these gear boxes comment on this?
Martin

[werminghausen]

To werminghausen, I do not have servotronic and need to know if you do in order to determine whther you can use my steering box.

I'm posting outside of our pm's in order to solicit advice on how to determine whether you have servotronic. Any takers?? I don't have my VIN handy to seee if realoem will figure it out.

Oh, where are you located?

Thanks Bill for the tip.

Dave

Yes I think I'd need hydro steering gear # 32131141813 according Realoem

[werminghausen]

It might run the same now, but I'm wondering if running PS fluid in there when you should've been running ATF has damaged any of the seals or other internals.

Well, anyone out with good comments here. I personally think the one or the other fluid doesn't matter too much but who knows.
Martin

[werminghausen]

I have put Lucas conditioner (this is conditioner for the transmission) in my PS reservoir and I was driving for 1 1/2 days. This morning I tried and steering seemed to be a bit stiff but improved compared how it was before, temperature was just below freezing, around 28F. I need to look at it for a bit longer and at lower temperatures.
Does anyone know what Lucas conditioner in ATF does to the steering gear box and pump?

[Mr._Graybeard]

I have put Lucas conditioner (this is conditioner for the transmission) in my PS reservoir and I was driving for 1 1/2 days. This morning I tried and steering seemed to be a bit stiff but improved compared how it was before, temperature was just below freezing, around 28F. I need to look at it for a bit longer and at lower temperatures.
Does anyone know what Lucas conditioner in ATF does to the steering gear box and pump?

I believe the theory behind the product is similar in the transmission and PS system, swelling the rubber seals slightly to compensate for wear and degradation. Ideally, that stops or reduces internal or external leakage.

Glad to hear you think it's helping. It's no substitute for a new gearbox, but maybe it'll give you some breathing room so you can track down a replacement.

[werminghausen]

Absolutely, also it is not fun to work outside in the climate and snow/ice.
I am looking for a replacement. I believe Dave has a candidate. Martin


I believe the theory behind the product is similar in the transmission and PS system, swelling the rubber seals slightly to compensate for wear and degradation. Ideally, that stops or reduces internal or external leakage.

Glad to hear you think it's helping. It's no substitute for a new gearbox, but maybe it'll give you some breathing room so you can track down a replacement.

[werminghausen]

This morning it was around 20F and steering better that ever before.
I also don't hear any slipping belt any more.
So the Lucas conditioner is doing its job? What a miracle. I just don't know how long this dream of resurrected rubber seals will last?
For me it is a relief being able to drive now but on the other hand I am planning a gear box swap- some wrenching in the spring sun.

[Mr._Graybeard]

Great news! Hope it lasts as long as you need it.

[genphreak]

I finally got my prntscrn function to work. Here's the screenshot from the lube manual on the steeringArghhh... Bill R comes through with the good oil once again... thanks Bill, an enlightening read that...

[genphreak]

That Lucas stuff is the magic stuff for most things mechanical I hear...

[werminghausen]

To werminghausen, I do not have servotronic and need to know if you do in order to determine whther you can use my steering box.

I'm posting outside of our pm's in order to solicit advice on how to determine whether you have servotronic. Any takers?? I don't have my VIN handy to seee if realoem will figure it out.

Oh, where are you located?

Thanks Bill for the tip.

Dave

To continue the story: I bought Dave's old steering box and put it in this summer. All was fine, no change in steering....and I hoped for great improvement in winter.
Now winter is here and I see the same issue: steering is hard. So I guess the steering pump is the culprit. It is shot somehow.
So the question is: what can go wrong with the steering pump when it pumps perfectly all year except when temperatures drop below freezing? Is there a cure?

[Tiger]

Seals leak and no pressure buildup. ************** has the seal kit for $39 or you can get a rebuilt one for $139... this is for PS w/self leveling system.

[werminghausen]

Seals leak and no pressure buildup. ************** has the seal kit for $39 or you can get a rebuilt one for $139... this is for PS w/self leveling system.

Thanks Tiger

I am sure now that the pump itself is the problem after ripping the steering box out for replacement. You are saying that the seals might fail....but....typically the seals are just to make the pump not leak oil....and my pump is not leaking a drop of oil. And th epump works perfectly in temperatures above 30F.
So what is the explanation here?
The pump must have some weird defect...a cold virus.
Or can it be that the pressure hose has not enough area for passage of cold oil?

[Tiger]

INTERNAL leak... will adversely affect output pressure.

[Mitch90535im]

I've noticed the same issue with my '90 535. It is designed for ATF, but hasn't been flushed/changed recently. The symptom goes away if I let the car warm up for a minute or two before driving away.

[Mr._Graybeard]

To continue the story: I bought Dave's old steering box and put it in this summer. All was fine, no change in steering....and I hoped for great improvement in winter.
Now winter is here and I see the same issue: steering is hard. So I guess the steering pump is the culprit. It is shot somehow.
So the question is: what can go wrong with the steering pump when it pumps perfectly all year except when temperatures drop below freezing? Is there a cure?

Sorry to hear. I was feeling a little smug, too, after thinking I'd helped you solve the problem.

Is the steering as hard as it was last year? I recall you saying you could barely turn the wheel at one point.

You could go back to the "miracle in a can" approach and see if some PS fluid conditioner frees up the steering like it did last winter.

[werminghausen]

INTERNAL leak... will adversely affect output pressure.

What can this leak then be? Does it mean that the metal lamellas withini the pum are worn and not sealing any more, meaning not pumping oil?
But how is the theory that this occurs only at low temps?
Do you think there is a repair kit?

I just looked into repair kits:

here is one: BMW power steering Pump Kit / 525i / 88-91 / Z.F. pump (1/88-9/91) (http://www.pskits.com/catalog/pumpkit525i8891zfpump188991-p-61.html?osCsid=a48f5f2b99eeebaf9e46a3831a5f68f9)

Do you think I should give it a try?

[Tiger]

I looked over my old post on this thread... the result is still the same... power steering pump.

There are alot of internal seals just like a transmission... if one of those seals go bad, transmission doesn't work properly. Same deal. Majority of the time with a functioning PS pump, it is the seal.

Now, should you repair it? I would have to say no... you don't seem experienced enough so just spend $139 for a rebuilt one and get over it.

Let me ask you another question... do you still have your self leveling system for your wagon?

[werminghausen]

I looked over my old post on this thread... the result is still the same... power steering pump.

There are alot of internal seals just like a transmission... if one of those seals go bad, transmission doesn't work properly. Same deal. Majority of the time with a functioning PS pump, it is the seal.

Now, should you repair it? I would have to say no... you don't seem experienced enough so just spend $139 for a rebuilt one and get over it.

Let me ask you another question... do you still have your self leveling system for your wagon?

Thanks Tiger
I have No self leveling system on my car!
I have rebuilt 2 PS pumps but it was on old MBs. These pumps were not even close to a transmission in the complexity. And there were 'only' metal vanes for the pump part producing pressure. All seals I changed were preventing the pump from leakage at the shaft etc which have caused the pump to leak oil... as far as I recall. I can rebuild my BMW pump, no problem with this. Thanks again.

[werminghausen]

Sorry to hear. I was feeling a little smug, too, after thinking I'd helped you solve the problem.

Is the steering as hard as it was last year? I recall you saying you could barely turn the wheel at one point.

You could go back to the "miracle in a can" approach and see if some PS fluid conditioner frees up the steering like it did last winter.

Thanks. The steering is very tough. I might put some conditioner in the fluid but I am considering rebuilding the pump now, put new seals in like Tiger is suggesting. I hope this might be the cure.

[werminghausen]

I looked over my old post on this thread... the result is still the same... power steering pump.

There are alot of internal seals just like a transmission... if one of those seals go bad, transmission doesn't work properly. Same deal. Majority of the time with a functioning PS pump, it is the seal.

Now, should you repair it? I would have to say no... you don't seem experienced enough so just spend $139 for a rebuilt one and get over it.

Let me ask you another question... do you still have your self leveling system for your wagon?

I checked the pump type I have. It is not the self leveling system..just the single Vickers pump. The reseal kit for the pump is available from BMW for about $41. As I have to take out the pump anyhow I might just give it a try and do it myself. I 'll report back. Martin

[alex 1993 525i auto]

Another option you have is to remove the oil in the pump and bring your ps pump to a repair shop that will change the seals, bearing, etc. that need to be replaced. You can check in your area for a shop who remanufacture parts, it should cost 200$ more or less if you bring them your worn pump.

Last summer I replaced myself both bearings inside the alternator, as well as the voltage regulator. The volt. reg. replacement was easy, but to get the old bearings out of the shaft and put the new ones in was more demanding (need a press)... So I ended up saving 100-150$ bucks for a few hours of fun... chose what you prefer.

[genphreak]

I just dug up the old reservoir. It says clearly : ATF only !
So my assumption is that the car came without the self leveling system.

Further assumption: The reason for bad performance at low temperatures is either the pump or the PS gear box. Any suggestions?
Martin

The seals fail in the pumps, maybe affecting low temp first.
0. Make sure the serpentine belt is OE spec- a Continental- may be worth buying from BMW as BillR has reccommended as they may have a closer tolerance (may no longer be true tho?).
- Correct type (1560-1580mm is allowable, obviously you want to be on the tighter side)
- Has a strong OEM tensioner- does it spring back smoothly and hold a strong tension?

Once you know the answer to these you may have it.

If not...
1. Goto PSkits.com - Power Steering Rebuild Kits for Pumps and Racks (http://www.pskits.com) and get a $20 repair kit.
2. if that doesn't help, you may be able to try synthetic Pentosin (CHF11S), low temp capabilites is the likely reason a manufacturer would opt to use such 'obscure' fluids in the first place...
3. Post your results for the world to know ;)

Good luck...

[werminghausen]

Another option you have is to remove the oil in the pump and bring your ps pump to a repair shop that will change the seals, bearing, etc. that need to be replaced. You can check in your area for a shop who remanufacture parts, it should cost 200$ more or less if you bring them your worn pump.

Last summer I replaced myself both bearings inside the alternator, as well as the voltage regulator. The volt. reg. replacement was easy, but to get the old bearings out of the shaft and put the new ones in was more demanding (need a press)... So I ended up saving 100-150$ bucks for a few hours of fun... chose what you prefer.

I am familiar with repairing the pump , it is just a lot of work and the seals for the Vickers cost about $40. In the end I doubt a bit that it will change the picture but maybe I am wrong. I just don't get it why the pump is leaking internally more when it is cold than when it is warm.

[werminghausen]

INTERNAL leak... will adversely affect output pressure.

why are leaks bigger at low temperatures. I think like with the engine oil pressure it should be higher at low temperatures and go down with hot oil?

[werminghausen]

I got the idea that I could try and replace my ATF Dexron III with Dexron VI. Dexron VI is compatible with Dexron III but should have has much better properties when cold. This would at least be a possibility to try. It is winter now in Boston and I can't wrench with 18" snow and ice on the ground. I'd just try and flush with Dexron VI. What do you think?

[Tiger]

Leave it alone for now... it is working for you.

[Bill R.]

Bmw puts pentosin chf 7.1 in the power steering in cold climates. You have to do a complete flush though if you use it. Empty the system as much as possible and fill with chf 7.1 . Its a much thinner viscosity and works better at low temps. I think it specified down to -40f

[werminghausen]

I can not agree more! Maybe the system (the pump!) works fine and has no inner leaks as some people guessed. System (...ATF as part of system)is probably not designed for low temperatures like in Boston. I'll try and put Dexron VI or synthetic ATF Mobile1 or the Pentosin in. It is not a cheap fix because I'd need probably 1 gallon of the Pentosin for flushing purposes?

Is there a way to 'thin' the existing ATF temporarily in order to figure out if thinning solves the issue. I mean is thinning for instance with Seafoam Trans.... or some other stuff? Can you help?

[alex 1993 525i auto]

I don't agree with the last comment, when you say the system was not designed for low temp. like Boston. If you look at the wheather in Germany, where those cars are designed, the weather is more or less as cold as in Boston in winter. My Bimmer was in So. Cal. (San Diego) for 13 years before I bought it. After living there with that car for 2 years, I drove back home to Montreal, Canada, 3 years ago. No issue at all with the power steering pump or fluid since I'm here. Here it is quite cold too in winter, a little bit colder than Boston obviously, as it is 300 miles north.

4 years ago when I was in California, my car was loosing power steering fluid (ATF as yours), but it was from the bottom of the reservoir. I had it fix, along with replacing a worn hose and flushing the P.S. fluid for new fluid. The level never changed since, it is still full, and the color is still as red, with a P.S. pump/whole car being 18 years old with 330k miles.

I can't point out where your P.S. is leaking from your story, but I would check every hose, connections, anything related to your P.S. system to find where the hell the fluid is going.