Royce Manual Help Please

[93 525 Paul]

I can't find my Royce (ah Bentley) manual, have turned the house and office inside out trying to locate it. Any chance anyone would be so kind as to scan or fax the M50 headgasket repair section?
I know this is a big request, but short of buying another manual and waiting, you all are my only hope.
Please consider it.
email scan to pmcdougal755 at comcast dot net
thanks in advance...
Paul

[genphreak]

I can't find my Royce manual, have turned the house and office inside out trying to locate it. Any chance anyone would be so kind as to scan or fax the M50 headgasket repair section?
I know this is a big request, but short of buying another manual and waiting, you all are my only hope.
Please consider it.
email scan to pmcdougal755 at comcast dot net
thanks in advance...
Paul

WTF is a Royce manual? You can find the Bently and Haynes (god forbid the Haynes) manuals online.... or even better BMW's own online Technical Information System as a bunch of huge PDFs. Search this forum, thre were some links posted a few days ago.

[whiskychaser]

http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/Index_cd3.htm

[93 525 Paul]

What's a Royce manual? Same as a Bentley, different cover, 20% more expensive?
Dunno. Old age I guess or owning 6 cars or...
No wonder I can't find it. I know it's got a gold cover and lots of greasy pages.

Thanks for the wtf, the suggestions and the link...

[93 525 Paul]

That M50 manual on the bmw tech info site shows nothing for head R&R and I don't see where the referred to "assembly repair manual" is on that site. Any further help would be appreciated.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o284/pmcdougal/manualpage.jpg

[ryan roopnarine]

listen, old top, the most popular manual for the e34 is called the ferrari manual, published by robert ferrari publishers. the front cover has a picture of a big ass cow on it, like the ferrari emblem.

mash here (in excess of 75mb)
http://luuk.xs4all.nl/bmwboeken/Bentley_BMW_5-Series_Service_Manual.pdf

[whiskychaser]

You might find this useful:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/101-Projects-17-Head-Gasket/101-Projects-17-Head-Gasket.htm

I'm just wondering what an 'old top' is

[ryan roopnarine]

You might find this useful:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/101-Projects-17-Head-Gasket/101-Projects-17-Head-Gasket.htm

I'm just wondering what an 'old top' is

I don't know if you all on that side of the pond got an animated show called "king of the hill" written by the same people that did beavis and butthead. Buck Strickland occasionally calls Hank Hill "old top" to imply that he's barking up the wrong tree/worrying excessively &c. I'm not sure what exactly it means.

[93 525 Paul]

I just thought it was synonymous with "old fart"...
Thanks for the links and the help.
Very much...
Paul

[Bill R.]

Its right here (http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/421en/htm/229.htm)






That M50 manual on the bmw tech info site shows nothing for head R&R and I don't see where the referred to "assembly repair manual" is on that site. Any further help would be appreciated.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o284/pmcdougal/manualpage.jpg

[whiskychaser]

I don't know if you all on that side of the pond got an animated show called "king of the hill" written by the same people that did beavis and butthead. Buck Strickland occasionally calls Hank Hill "old top" to imply that he's barking up the wrong tree/worrying excessively &c. I'm not sure what exactly it means.

Used to enjoy King of the Hill but never knew anybody else that watched it. Perhaps why I havent seen it for a while. Shame

[93 525 Paul]

Used to enjoy King of the Hill but never knew anybody else that watched it. Perhaps why I havent seen it for a while. Shame

That is a shame, that's some of the best TV in existence.

Hey, what have folks done for sourcing the tools? Looks like at minimum I need the cam holder, the chain tensioning tool and the Torx head bolt tool. (Ever since I was a devoted BavAuto client and learned of AutohausAZ and BMA, I always ask...)
On a medium/high mileage engine like mine, what should the job include other than R&R with a HG set and new H bolts? Guessing resurfacing, valve job, guides, etc? Anybody had success with the pelican method of cam removal?

[whiskychaser]

Anybody had success with the pelican method of cam removal?
I used that method and it worked very well. While I did the job alone its probably best to have a mate hold the cam to stop it twisting. This is particularly important when putting the cam back in - the first nut wont even start to thread until you twist the cam a tiny bit off the 'sweet spot'. Hopefully the valves/guides/seats are in good shape and you wont have to bother taking the cams out:)

PS. If you do go ahead, can I suggest you get your HG from a dealer or from the shop that skims your head if you are having it done

[Dave M]

That is a shame, that's some of the best TV in existence.

Hey, what have folks done for sourcing the tools? Looks like at minimum I need the cam holder, the chain tensioning tool and the Torx head bolt tool. (Ever since I was a devoted BavAuto client and learned of AutohausAZ and BMA, I always ask...)
On a medium/high mileage engine like mine, what should the job include other than R&R with a HG set and new H bolts? Guessing resurfacing, valve job, guides, etc? Anybody had success with the pelican method of cam removal?


We've discussed M50 head removal witout any 'special' tools many times in the past. Try a search and you should find methods to do the head gasket using nothing but a good straight edge for cam alignment, a safety pin or equivalent for secondary chain tensioner and a regular torx ground down to fit the one or bolts that are hard to get at near the timing cover.

If you have any trouble or any more questions, pm me.

Dave

[93 525 Paul]

We've discussed M50 head removal witout any 'special' tools many times in the past. Try a search and you should find methods to do the head gasket using nothing but a good straight edge for cam alignment, a safety pin or equivalent for secondary chain tensioner and a regular torx ground down to fit the one or bolts that are hard to get at near the timing cover.

If you have any trouble or any more questions, pm me.

Dave

Found it, never saw it in my (many) previous searches. Others may appreciate a shortcut...
http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39450&highlight=M50+head+tools

[93 525 Paul]

Thanks for the help fellas.
Between and amongst flu, bronchitis and business travel I have the head ready to pull. Quite a chore, had to buy the female torx sockets, turned the socket's OD on my lathe to get to all the head bolts.
The only hiccup so far (well, other than misplacing my 3/8" drive 10mm deep socket - WTF???) has been trying to remove the Vanos device. It would come about 1/2" forward but then stop. It felt like there was a hard stop, it wouldn't budge. Finally loosened the nuts on the one cam gear and the bolts on the other and with those broken loose it came clear as easy as could be. My guess is that the intake gear was bound up and wouldn't rotate far enough to let the Vanos splines disengage.
With all this rain I'm going to have to push it in the garage to make any progress.
Wish me luck. Thanks again.

[whiskychaser]

Its all been said before but maybe worth repeating:
That head is heavy. Get a mate to help or maybe use a lift. When you break the 'seal' on the HG and clear the lugs, the head may try to slide across the surface of the block as its at an angle. It has to come straight up to avoid snapping off the chain guide or catching a valve. Unless you have the bonnet off, the head obviously has to come out one side. So work out who is going hold it while the other runs round to help:D When putting it back on, I'd suggest a couple of pieces of wood between the head and block till you get it in the right position. Best of luck with it!

[93 525 Paul]

Its all been said before but maybe worth repeating:
That head is heavy. Get a mate to help or maybe use a lift. When you break the 'seal' on the HG and clear the lugs, the head may try to slide across the surface of the block as its at an angle. It has to come straight up to avoid snapping off the chain guide or catching a valve. Unless you have the bonnet off, the head obviously has to come out one side. So work out who is going hold it while the other runs round to help:D When putting it back on, I'd suggest a couple of pieces of wood between the head and block till you get it in the right position. Best of luck with it!
Thanks for the advice. I lift weights and can curl way more than the head weighs, so I was going to make the mistake of doing it solo. With the reminder on the deck angle and the valve and chain guide risk, I definitely won't.

[93 525 Paul]

Best of luck with it!

I got her off safely using an electric winch mounted overhead. Super easy. (Yes, as you suspect, I have no friends.)
I can upload a photo if you want, but I was surprised how good the block deck, the gasket and the head looked. It is not obvious without close inspection what happened.
It looks to me like the hg and the head remained sealed and that a very small area of the gasket in the metal cylinder sealing ring area between cylinders 4/5 and 5/6 looks cleaned and the surface of the block there looks superficially soda blasted. I am guessing the block and gasket lost seal there and cylinder pressures were lost.
Much more slight than I would have expected. I wanted an "aha"...
:(
Any input? Opining and guessing welcome.

[93 525 Paul]

You might find this useful:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/101-Projects-17-Head-Gasket/101-Projects-17-Head-Gasket.htm



Took the head to a machine shop, guy said the surface wasn't clean enough to check for flat. He did a test run and said it might be OK. Took it home and cleaned it up. Decided to go ahead and yank the cams to make the cleanup and checking easier.
Used the Pelican method to remove the cams last night, worked like a charm.

The while we are at it question looms. What would you refresh/replace while you have the head off a 178k mile engine?

[whiskychaser]

Think I'd wiggle test the valves to make sure the guides are ok. Replace the valve stem oil seals as they have got to be like concrete and are only a few pence? Clean the valve heads and lap them back in? Apart from that I'd probably slap its a..e and chuck it back in. I'd re-read this in case I forgot something:D :

http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar1192.htm

[93 525 Paul]

Think I'd wiggle test the valves to make sure the guides are ok. Replace the valve stem oil seals as they have got to be like concrete and are only a few pence? Clean the valve heads and lap them back in? Apart from that I'd probably slap its a..e and chuck it back in. I'd re-read this in case I forgot something:D :

http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar1192.htm

Will definitely slap its arse even if it never goes back in.
I got a surprise at the machine shop, head is flat and square to less than .002" machinist said stick it back in. So, if the hg looks intact, the head is straight, then what gave?
The only other 2 variables are head bolts and the block itself. I can't practically lug the block to the machine shop. What are the odds the head and block are both solid and the head bolts gave that much?
What the ???

[whiskychaser]

Will definitely slap its arse even if it never goes back in.
I got a surprise at the machine shop, head is flat and square to less than .002" machinist said stick it back in. So, if the hg looks intact, the head is straight, then what gave?
The only other 2 variables are head bolts and the block itself. I can't practically lug the block to the machine shop. What are the odds the head and block are both solid and the head bolts gave that much?
What the ???
I dont see the head bolts or block being the problem. (Not on an E34 anyway) While the HG might look ok, you cant check it to 2 thou. My younger son kept boiling up a Fiat Punto. When it gave up the ghost you couldnt tell from the HG. As somebody once said ' Use the force Luke' :D

[93 525 Paul]

I dont see the head bolts or block being the problem. (Not on an E34 anyway) While the HG might look ok, you cant check it to 2 thou. My younger son kept boiling up a Fiat Punto. When it gave up the ghost you couldnt tell from the HG. As somebody once said ' Use the force Luke' :D

Heh heh, very clever. Who says the English are stuffy?
Thanks Whisky. I do appreciate it.

Found a good thread on one of the "other" sites, a guy went step by step through all his experiences doing an M50 hg.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=363966

Everyone else has an overheat linked to their hg failure while mine was just motoring along at normal temp and went poof, went off song, smoking and leaking. Pulled her right over.
Lucky me eh?

[93 525 Paul]

Think I'd wiggle test the valves to make sure the guides are ok. Replace the valve stem oil seals as they have got to be like concrete and are only a few pence? Clean the valve heads and lap them back in?

My regular old Craftsman valve spring compressor didn't reach far enough down into the top of the head to compress the springs without running into protrusions on the head. Made a makeshift collar out of plastic to work as an extension, but for valve reinstallation need to make a new set of compressor arms that reach farther down into the head.
Made a simple job into a chore. Just me?

[whiskychaser]

My old one didnt reach either so I had to buy a new one too. You can adjust the screws at either end which is handy. Used it a couple of times since so it was worth the outlay.

My tools of choice for the collets are small 'electrical' screw driver, pointed nose pliars and blob of grease. A mate swears if your stick your tongue out and to the left they go in easier:D