OT: Informal Survey....

[George Mann]

in this day of escalating fuel costs although moderating of late a bit, would like to poll the audience. What are opinions on the best commuter car for the buck that gets good economy? This hypothetical car would be an elusive balance between Sport, Style, Economy, Initial cost, Comfort and Performance....of relatively equal weighting in importance. What do you guys think?...what is the best overall commuter car out there that gets decent mileage? I am logging about 3/4's to a full hour commute one-way in literal stop and go traffic no matter which route I go and am considering trading my Saturn SC2 5 speed which is a great little car but I feel like I literally am rowing the dam thing through traffic all the way there which I am....will probably get a slushbox car with a hint more performance...not critical...but a bit more luxury. Any bimmer with a M-30 is too thirsty and too old and would require more wrenching.
Opinions?...not necessarily a BMW....as they tend to be a bit pricey if close to new.
Thanks,
George

[Kamil]

You can't go wrong w/ a Honda.... however, I commute from northern NJ to Brooklyn (when I cant take mass transit, i.e. nights) in a '83 Mercedes 300SD (turbo diesel).

No worries of theft, no worries about driving on crappy NYC roads, 30+MPG @ 1.80/gallon, $500 insunace per year.
Heated seats, huge sunroof, and auto tranny are nice to have too. :)

[KurtM]

ago for somewhat the same reason. The other being putting too many miles on BMW. My commute is 30 miles that takes 35 minutes on a 2 lane highway. I wanted something that would get decent mileage (so far it has averaged 24 mpg) which is what I was hoping for. I was looking at Mazdas, Toys, Mitsubishis and Nissan, nothing American. Wanted low maintenace, easy and inexpensive to repair. Plan to fix it up real nice and give to my daughter in 3 years when she starts to drive.

Kurt
95 525ia
88 Toyota 4x4

[Hector]

you can't go wrong with a hybrid but seems like every dealer has a waiting list. This is something I'm seriously considering as a daily driver (will still keep the m30.) The only problem is that there is not much history on their reliability. If you're a tree-hugger, then you come out winning in that aspect as well.

[Dick Schneiders]

I really like the Chrysler PT Turbo, or GT Cruiser (I have heard it called both). It is about 215 horses and even more torque. It has been out for a couple of years or so and there might be a used one available if you live in a populated area. I drove one and it is very quick and fun, but it had a manual tranny. As I recall, it gets about 24 mpg city and over 30 on the highway. It was really priced reasonably as a new car. Some people don't like the looks of these at all, though.

There is another car that I drove that I liked even more (and it uses the same basic engine that the PT Turbo does). That is the Dodge SRT-4. Really fast, with even more hp than the PT Turbo. It rivals the Subaru WRX for a lot less money. It gets a bit less in mpg, at 22 city 30 highway and I don't know if it comes with an automatic. However, it is probably not very likely to find a used one as they haven't sold a lot of them, I would guess. They were around $20 grand new when they first came out last year.

I know nothing about the reliability or ease of repair on these cars, but they are a lot of fun to drive and quite economical.

Dick Schneiders




in this day of escalating fuel costs although moderating of late a bit, would like to poll the audience. What are opinions on the best commuter car for the buck that gets good economy? This hypothetical car would be an elusive balance between Sport, Style, Economy, Initial cost, Comfort and Performance....of relatively equal weighting in importance. What do you guys think?...what is the best overall commuter car out there that gets decent mileage? I am logging about 3/4's to a full hour commute one-way in literal stop and go traffic no matter which route I go and am considering trading my Saturn SC2 5 speed which is a great little car but I feel like I literally am rowing the dam thing through traffic all the way there which I am....will probably get a slushbox car with a hint more performance...not critical...but a bit more luxury. Any bimmer with a M-30 is too thirsty and too old and would require more wrenching.
Opinions?...not necessarily a BMW....as they tend to be a bit pricey if close to new.
Thanks,
George

[Brian C.]

...by the way that my PT Cruiser drives as much as I'm surprised by how much I like the damn little thing. Now right off the bat, it's no "Ultimate Driving Machine" when it come to handling and power. I didn't expect it to be. And the FWD vs RWD thing took a little getting used to, but it's not a deal breaker by any means. For what I needed my vehicle to do for me, it does it pretty darn nicely.

Econony....a solid 20mpg in MY hour or so, each way, daily commute. I haven't done an extended highway trip yet, but I'll get 25-29mpg for an hour at 65mph. The ~16gal tank is kinda small.

Interior space....4 large adults are very comfortable, with some decent luggage space too. The power really decreases with all that weight though. With the rear seats removed, I hauled a boxed, compact washer and dryer from the store to a friends apartment last weekend. With the hatch closed. Not too shabby there. And getting my parents in and out is quite easy.

Power....well, not exactly a rocket, but my I4 2.4L turbo isn't a snail either. With just me in it, it will pull me up an entrance ramp with a good kick. The turbo does lag a bit. Passing at 70 is fun too. My max speed so far has been about 95mph. Probably not too much more after that.

Maintenence....not an issue yet thank you very much. Time will tell I guess. That warranty thing is nice to have though.

Most importantly.....the chicks dig it! Too bad...or maybe not :D ...most of them are of the younger crowd though. But I have been kind enough as to give the ocassional ride to young, cute, female co-workers, the nice guy that I am. :p

Give it a look....$20-$25k max ain't bad. I have to get a few photos and post them soon.

Brian C.

[Dick Schneiders]

drive the one I was testing at very fast speeds, but it must have a limiter on it if it is petering out at around 100mph.

The Dodge SRT-4, which uses the same engine but not the same turbo and other stuff, will go to about 150 mph (per the reports - I didn't drive it that fast) and do 0-60 in about 5.6 seconds. Also, it didn't have much turbo lag at all, and the reports on it say this is much better than what the Subaru WRX and Focus SVT turbo's have. The SRT-4 is also fairly roomy, just a bit smaller than a Camary or Accord, but certainly not as roomy as the PT. I really liked the SRT-4, as a fun and fast car, but it doesn't have much in the way of luxury. Also, as I said, I don't know if this car comes with an automatic.

Dick Schneiders



...by the way that my PT Cruiser drives as much as I'm surprised by how much I like the damn little thing. Now right off the bat, it's no "Ultimate Driving Machine" when it come to handling and power. I didn't expect it to be. And the FWD vs RWD thing took a little getting used to, but it's not a deal breaker by any means. For what I needed my vehicle to do for me, it does it pretty darn nicely.

Econony....a solid 20mpg in MY hour or so, each way, daily commute. I haven't done an extended highway trip yet, but I'll get 25-29mpg for an hour at 65mph. The ~16gal tank is kinda small.

Interior space....4 large adults are very comfortable, with some decent luggage space too. The power really decreases with all that weight though. With the rear seats removed, I hauled a boxed, compact washer and dryer from the store to a friends apartment last weekend. With the hatch closed. Not too shabby there. And getting my parents in and out is quite easy.

Power....well, not exactly a rocket, but my I4 2.4L turbo isn't a snail either. With just me in it, it will pull me up an entrance ramp with a good kick. The turbo does lag a bit. Passing at 70 is fun too. My max speed so far has been about 95mph. Probably not too much more after that.

Maintenence....not an issue yet thank you very much. Time will tell I guess. That warranty thing is nice to have though.

Most importantly.....the chicks dig it! Too bad...or maybe not :D ...most of them are of the younger crowd though. But I have been kind enough as to give the ocassional ride to young, cute, female co-workers, the nice guy that I am. :p

Give it a look....$20-$25k max ain't bad. I have to get a few photos and post them soon.

Brian C.

[winfred]

how bout a tdi vw, theres something to say about 50 mpg and cheeper fuel, diesel is $1,589-1.689 here vs $1.979-2.079 for 93, and it's a sporty little turd too, with some mods it could be real fun, i saw a thing in euro car about one that put 150 hp to the ground and still got stock mileage while stomping on most everything in it's class of car

[sbcncsu]

how bout a tdi vw, theres something to say about 50 mpg and cheeper fuel, diesel is $1,589-1.689 here vs $1.979-2.079 for 93, and it's a sporty little turd too, with some mods it could be real fun, i saw a thing in euro car about one that put 150 hp to the ground and still got stock mileage while stomping on most everything in it's class of car

I second that one. The TDI is an awesome machine. Get a Jetta TDI, heck, you can even get a wagon. Good thing is, it will get out of its own way, will haul stuff, is NICE inside and you can get a competent auto tranny in them.

My wife and I test drove one last fall. We really liked it. It was an '04 jetta wagon auto with leather. Sticker was $24k.

[Elekta]

1. I would set a mileage criteria first.

Below 25 mpg, you could still live with your e34. Just keep driving it; quit unecessary mods, do O2 sensors and tune to maximize efficiency and drive it economically when you need to. The effort expended to sell, research, and buy a new car could be the difference in the higher fuel costs when you think about it.

If you are serious about above 25mpg, pick a high mpg deisel, like the VW rabbit or the older mercedes. There are older cars that can maintain >30 mpgs with little upkeep. If it's truly a commuter car, than don't look for other benefits, plus consider a third car, and write the whole thing off. (My dad had a corvair to go to the train, and that's all he ever used it for, back in the 60's). My pick would be a 2 door 300d. My grandfather had one, and it was mint and he replaced his 70's opec deisel dasher (52mpg) with one in the early 80's. I bet there are near mint versions of this car out there that are really cheap to own, drive and maintain.

Above 30mpg, you really have to do your research, because there are claims that aren't really panning out of some of the hybrids and other hi-mileage cars. Consider tax benefits in your financial analysis.


2. Do the math. It makes absolutely no sense to get a car that becomes a project if what you are trying to do is save money. The spread on fuel is a tight margin to beat and you could easily end up worse financially.

hth

my plan is to drive both my e34's and put as many miles on them as possible between maintenance. We own them outright and insurance is cheap-er (and getting cheaper if you remain aggressive with your provider.) I save money every day by not financing a newer car, and every tank of 93 is justified when I have no interest to pay...or a car payment for that matter. I save even more when I borrow a friend's truck everytime I threaten to buy a little pickup to go huntin/fishin/towin in.

Hell, you could pay down your credit card debt with a credit union debt take out, and make up the fuel price difference in an interest swap alone.

I'm saving for 05-06 Touring, hopefully there will be a 4.4ix version with integrated westphalia towing package for me. ;)

http://volcano.photobucket.com/albums/v11/ggil-tx/bmw/DSCN0790.jpg

[Bill R.]

would probably buy a 4 cylinder accord lx if I was looking for luxury ride, mileage etc... The new accord if you're looking at new is very nice driving, great mileage etc... in an auto.
The Vw tdi is a fine engine with a terrible automatic transmission... do a quick search and see how many transmission problems there are on them and the rest of the car is junk... Its a shame really, the engine is great but everything else is problems.. I'm already seeing 2002's with trouble that are out of warranty.. Lots of glitchy problems...

Same thing with any chrysler product with the 2.0 or 2.4 engine..check on head gasket failures on these... One of my customers has a 2001 on the third head gasket.. and the gasket has been redesigned 3 times. I am a former dodge/chrysler owner myself ... Dakota 4x4 318 and I really like the appearance of the pt cruiser... I know I know but I also like the previa appearance and I even like the newer aztek appearance so whats that tell you? But I see so many problems on chrysler products that I would never buy one now...
You missed your shot on the toyota previa hybrid though George, 80,000 backorders and none of them now are selling for the original msrp of
18,500... :p
But if I was going to buy a new or newer 4 or 2 door passenger car that had to get mileage, be sporty but decent appearance I would definitely lean toward the honda accord 4... Pricing is pretty reasonable too. One of my customers just bought an lx for less than 18. My own next will be in the sport utility class since we need cars that will haul stuff around.. probably a crv or a rx300
One more thing I forgot to add... You have to be a real masochist to drive a 300d in stop and go traffic...sustained level freeway is one thing but stop and go would be a real joke...











in this day of escalating fuel costs although moderating of late a bit, would like to poll the audience. What are opinions on the best commuter car for the buck that gets good economy? This hypothetical car would be an elusive balance between Sport, Style, Economy, Initial cost, Comfort and Performance....of relatively equal weighting in importance. What do you guys think?...what is the best overall commuter car out there that gets decent mileage? I am logging about 3/4's to a full hour commute one-way in literal stop and go traffic no matter which route I go and am considering trading my Saturn SC2 5 speed which is a great little car but I feel like I literally am rowing the dam thing through traffic all the way there which I am....will probably get a slushbox car with a hint more performance...not critical...but a bit more luxury. Any bimmer with a M-30 is too thirsty and too old and would require more wrenching.
Opinions?...not necessarily a BMW....as they tend to be a bit pricey if close to new.
Thanks,
George

[Kamil]

My pick would be a 2 door 300d.


Huhu, good luck finding one of those.
And if you, right away start looking for another one in case you ever need a body panel or glass. Your best bet (for the money) is stay w/ the most common 4-door, esp if it's something that will be used and abused daily.

-K

[Kamil]

would probably buy a 4 cylinder accord lx...
I agree... stick to the 5-speed manual, as some automatics have issues.
If you want more luxury go for the EX.


One more thing I forgot to add... You have to be a real masochist to drive a 300d in stop and go traffic...sustained level freeway is one thing but stop and go would be a real joke...

I drive one thru NYC traffic (both smooth traffic and stop-and-go) almost daily w/o problems... dunno what u'r talking about.

[Bill R.]

George's entire point was that he wanted an automatic for stop and go traffic.



I agree... stick to the 5-speed manual, as some automatics have issues.
If you want more luxury go for the EX.

I drive one thru NYC traffic (both smooth traffic and stop-and-go) almost daily w/o problems... dunno what u'r talking about. I work on a number of 300d, sd and tds and wouldn't even think of driving one in stop and go traffic and I wouldn't inflict that on the people behind me either.

[Jason]

how bout a tdi vw, theres something to say about 50 mpg and cheeper fuel, diesel is $1,589-1.689 here vs $1.979-2.079 for 93, and it's a sporty little turd too, with some mods it could be real fun, i saw a thing in euro <A TITLE="Click for more information about car" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||cars|AA1VDw">car</A> about one that put 150 hp to the ground and still got stock mileage while stomping on most everything in it's class of car

[Brian C.]

...I really haven't pushed the speed thing too far yet. The first week I got the car was a very strange experience of going from the E34 to the PT overnight. I drove it home late one night and decided to open it up a bit. The combination of sitting high in a seat, a much more verticle vehicle, the high rpm sound to the engine, the lighter weight, and all this in a car that I wasn't familiar with yet made me feel as though I didn't WANT to push the car up much higher. Friends, yes :( , I have a few PT friends now, have told me that their cars will do all sorts of speed and turns and stuff that I haven't attempted yet. I've just been tentitive so far. The turbo only lags from the standing start, and then only a bit. And I didn't mean that the speed is petering out around 95mph, just that I was wussing-out pushing it any further. :p

Brian C.

[Bill R.]

that the drag limitation is right in the same area as the electronic limit..








...I really haven't pushed the speed thing too far yet. The first week I got the car was a very strange experience of going from the E34 to the PT overnight. I drove it home late one night and decided to open it up a bit. The combination of sitting high in a seat, a much more verticle vehicle, the high rpm sound to the engine, the lighter weight, and all this in a car that I wasn't familiar with yet made me feel as though I didn't WANT to push the car up much higher. Friends, yes :( , I have a few PT friends now, have told me that their cars will do all sorts of speed and turns and stuff that I haven't attempted yet. I've just been tentitive so far. The turbo only lags from the standing start, and then only a bit. And I didn't mean that the speed is petering out around 95mph, just that I was wussing-out pushing it any further. :p

Brian C.

[Sweetwater]

We've been buying gasoline with those supermarket discount receipts. You know, buy $75 groceries and get 15 cents per gallon off.....So, rather than running my standard 1/2 tank then fill it, I've been going down to less than a 1/4 tank before I fill to maximize my savings. Last fill saved $2.12, so even though it feels like a big discount, in the overall scope of things, I can't claim that it's enough to justify another auto. And I can spread my miles out between a 4x4 truck, for skiing, boating and camping, the 530i, and the GS motorcycle. Really can't justify all three by gas mileage, but the fun factor of the last two goes a long way.

When the final numbers are tallied, most of us can't justify the added expense of another car or a new car even if it increases mileage by 25%. Those other factors, taxes, insurance, etc are big numbers sitting in the closet.

[callen]

tell you I hear alot about manuals in traffic but I actually prefer......I drive about the same as you 3/4 to an hour each way in moderate to heavy traffic and am able to creep without too much shifting...and definetely off the brake as all the slush boxes.

To answer your questions....slushbox, economy, sport............E36 2.5L in great shape.

Course if Bush would've been better communicator with our allies we wouldn't have been in this high priced gas situation........okay just having fun....LOL

Callen 91 535i 94 530i 5spds

[Brian C.]

:p

[Ian W]

Hi George

The common rail diesels are really popular over here(UK) now, probably account for 30 40% of sales , this may be partly due to our fuel prices , but the cars are good. Vw seemed to start the ball rolling with a 150bhp gt tdi golf(rabbit?). which does 50mpg plus and works well with auto, most manufacturers now do this sport twist on the diesel models, the vw have been around long enough to be availible at good prices. most are as good if not better than the petrol equivelent. Do you get the bmw 330d in the US 290Lb ft torque. Better 50 -70's than an M3.

As diesels have become more popular they have also begun to hold there value really well . Even the Japenese are now fitting civilsed diesels . Might be worth a test.

[Ian W]

just had another thought, I used to live in the North of England, there was a large asian community in my town. The guys who ran taxis swore by what we called nissan primaras , a mid size saloon or hatchback. I would regularly find myself being taken home in one these they often had 300,000 plus miles on them.

[Jeff N.]

Lot's of the track guys seem to like Ford Focus 3 door SVX or whatever it is. Don't know how it works as a slushbox but they must think it drives OK and has decent power. Maybe a little more sporty than the sewing-machine like Honda.

Cheers!

Jeff

[Dick Schneiders]

[QUOTE=Bill R.]
But if I was going to buy a new or newer 4 or 2 door passenger car that had to get mileage, be sporty but decent appearance I would definitely lean toward the honda accord 4... QUOTE]

Damn Bill, that is really using the word "sporty" in a very loose manner! :-)

I would never consider a Honda Accord 4 to be in any class using that word.

Unless, of course, it came with a huge several foot high rear wing and chrome spinner wheels and a bunch of performance decals all over the thing. Now that is sporty!!

Dick Schneiders

[Bill R.]

base model lx has 160 hp and 161 ft lbs of torque with the 5 speed auto it feels like a lot more...I was really surprised when I drove it.. much more nimble than a camry but has a solid feel to it.. No torque steer at all that I could detect... I wouldn't say it if I didn't believe it.. and I've driven a lot of newer cars that my customers bring by wanting me to check them out for a purchase.. This is all balancing mileage, luxury , styling as he said...
If he weren't considering new then I could come up with a lot of different cars I'd get depending on the amount spent.








[QUOTE=Bill R.]
But if I was going to buy a new or newer 4 or 2 door passenger car that had to get mileage, be sporty but decent appearance I would definitely lean toward the honda accord 4... QUOTE]

Damn Bill, that is really using the word "sporty" in a very loose manner! :-)

I would never consider a Honda Accord 4 to be in any class using that word.

Unless, of course, it came with a huge several foot high rear wing and chrome spinner wheels and a bunch of performance decals all over the thing. Now that is sporty!!

Dick Schneiders

[G Feller]

I was a good boy and accompanied my mother in law to check out the Accord, Camry, Mazda 6, Altima, and Passat. She ended up with a 4-cylinder automatic Accord, pretty well decked out for $21.5 I think. The Accord was a far better buy than any of the others (not cheaper, just more for your money), it feels huge inside and is built very well. Plenty of pep when you need it, too. The Passat was just a little smaller, less plush, and more expensive

George, my other suggestion (not knowing their reliability over the longer term, so the suggestion could get slaughtered in this company) was going to be a 2001+ Passat. My wife and I had a V6 5-speed for a year and I really liked that car. It was built in Germany, felt solid as hell (almost too solid?!), and I know VW throws at least a decent auto tranny in the Passat don't they? They are Tiptronic, I know that. 190 hp for the V6, 170 or so if you get a 1.8T, and they are down in the $13k - $20k range for as simple or as plush a version as you can need. Wagons too . . .

I remember being amused to noticed that the gearing of the five-speed manual let me keep the car in 2nd gear from 5mph all the way up to 70. We sold it when we moved to NYC.

I love the research and thinking that goes into such a decision . . . enjoy.


base model lx has 160 hp and 161 ft lbs of torque with the 5 speed auto it feels like a lot more...I was really surprised when I drove it.. much more nimble than a camry but has a solid feel to it.. No torque steer at all that I could detect... I wouldn't say it if I didn't believe it.. and I've driven a lot of newer cars that my customers bring by wanting me to check them out for a purchase.. This is all balancing mileage, luxury , styling as he said...
If he weren't considering new then I could come up with a lot of different cars I'd get depending on the amount spent.

[Jr ///M5]

George will get as many opinions on this subject as "What kind of oil should I use"....

While he mentions traffic and the need for an automatic with a sporty flair, Bill R. probably has it nailed down for the car that fits all the criteria. I would heed his advice......

Keep in mind that fuel prices in the late seventies were on the rise, matter of fact, they doubled.

Has your income doubled? It's all relative....point

Be glad we don't pay the piper as our friends in Great Britian do, where gas is reportedly over $5 a gallon.....Can you say, "Hello Hybrid"???

So if fuel is really a secondary issue here, (sporty and performance being first) with an automatic and low maintenance for dependability, with price being less than 20k for new....

I would.....




buy an old E30 convertible and spend the extra to bring it up to my standards.........

Sorry George, I know it's not what you wanted to hear.....
(but I'm biased.....=) (and you are too!)

[632 Regal]

Now thats damn good advice Jr!

[rickm]

Be glad we don't pay the piper as our friends in Great Britian do, where gas is reportedly over $5 a gallon.....Can you say, "Hello Hybrid"???

My neighbors just returned to the UK after 3 years here. I asked him about fuel prices, he lived outside of London and never had a vehicle, public transportation got him virtually anywhere he needed to be. For me hopping in the car and driving 4 hours for a day or so is nothing, he said in the UK they weren't so inclined to drive around aimlessly. $5/gal would put a dent in aimless driving. :)

[DueyT]

George, for what it's worth, I have 110,000km on my 2K1 Jetta TDI 5-sp, a lot of that crawling along the DVP or 401 in Toronto to get back to Kingston... With the torque a diesel has, I was able to pick a gear and let the darn thing IDLE in that gear to roll with traffic and stay off the brakes. These cars will actually idle in 5th at 800 rpm and 35-40km/h!!! I was actually going to sell the beastie for ~19k (current market) after buying new for $25.5k...they hold their value great and are excellent communters.

p.s. you can't mess with 50mpg(US)/60mpg(Imp)!!!

I find my 540iSport/Jetta TDI combo is the best autobahning (well N.A. highwaying) team going!

Cheers,
Duey

[winfred]

i 2nd the vote for a e30, i like my e30 better then my e34, mom loves her 87k mile 90 325isa (i won't tell you what she tells me it gets for mileage, i may get branded a liar, ill only say it gets a fair amount better then mine) my last tank up in the e30 was 24.48 mpg with lots of flogging on my normal loop, one way to work 20 miles 16 hwy/4 city 6-7 days a week plus lots of city on the weekend, most starts are done at full throttle, i've not done a full tank of hwy since the last round of mods but i know it'll do better then 30. 88 and up 325i/is/ic nice and cheep plus fun, and every performance mod i've done has increased mileage, you can score a nice low mile one for about $5k if you look

[Robert K]

We bought a 1997 V-6 Toyota Camry about 2 years ago for my wife and we love it. To me, it's a wonderful blend of everything. The ride is pretty comfortable and quiet. To me, the handling is more crisp than my 1991 535i. It probably won't hang on as tight in a corner (due in part to the smaller footprint Bridgestones), but it changes directions easily and with minimal body roll. As far as power...I'm not sure my 535i would have much on it up to 100 mph. The engine is very strong (about 190 hp) and very smooth. To be honest, I have't checked the actual mpg's on it, but I believe the original window sticker had about 27-28 highway and near 20 in town. I've always said that if I had to replace my BMW with a non-BMW car, I'd consider another V-6 Camry in a second. I don't know if it would get high enough mileage for you, or if it's in your price range, but I would highly recommend driving one before making your decision. My $.02.

Regards,

Robert K

1991 535i

[George M]

Thanks to all of you...my friends...what a great thread....what I hoped for because you guys like myself are passionate about cars and know a lot about them. For me...it a dilemma of sorts. No surprise, Japanese cars were highly touted in your responses...I have to agree...they are simply great cars. The issue is, even though in my new job I am designing for Mitisubishi...I still work in the American auto industry in Detroit and unlike the rest of the country there still lingers a huge stigma if driving something other than American. Further to this unfortunate double standard since there is no such thing as a single national car company...all are in bed with one another...content goes both ways between Japan and American, Japanese cars are the most liked and hated cars in Detroit...a subconsious reminder of how high the bar is set by the competition. I too agree best bang for buck all things considered is one of the nicer Japanese cars....Honda and Toyotas are very hard to beat. Bimmers are more socially accepted in Detroit and there are a fair amount. We all know the downside there....Bimmers are pretty expensive cars to buy close to new and if you buy used, be prepared to spend a fair amount of time in the garage and on the phone with BMA :-) And Bill, you are correct...would have to be a slushbox car. I love a 5 speed but this traffic is so intense....a virtual parking lot much of the way....no way would I get another stick shift car for this commute. And also, like all you guys, I really like upscale cars. As to Jr and Winfred's input about the E-30...yup a good little car...and drove a beat one for Jr a while ago...a convertible with automatic and as expected was much more comfortable than my Saturn. Camry's are terrific cars Robert...agree there as well...but as much as I would like a Japanese car it isn't in the cards for me for the reasons mentioned above. As to the PT cruiser...Brian, a great car for the money, but that car ain't me....I just don't like the retro styling. So here I sit...in some ways I miss my '01 Aurora with slushbox....loaded...good looking and a combined mileage of 20 mpg in both city and highway driving...pretty damn good for a 4 valve V8 car with 250 hp....that car had some giddy up.
Speaking of mileage...one irony is some of the big V8 cars are getting pretty damn good fuel economy unlike our aging M-30 Bimmers. Some of the recent Corvettes and LS V8 Camaro's get close to 20 mpg overall which is amazing considering the outstanding level of performance. Will have to figure it out...not sure if there is an immaculate decision. If I worked in another part of the country and in another line of work, the answer would be simple.
Thanks for all the input guys!
George

[ryan roopnarine]

i was always curious about that.....when we drove to toronto in the winter, and when I went there last month in the e34, we managed to exit at exactly the same place in michigan, in front of what must be the Jeep "works" for the area. Both times I saw signs in their parking lot that said "no foreign parking allowed". I had just assumed it was them being cute, didn't possibly think they were being serious.

[philbyil]

George,
Go try a VW Golf TDI.....great little car with 50mpg!

Phil C.
95 525i 5spd. Shark in sheeps clothing