OT: Arizona - The Wrong Answer

[whiskychaser]

I thought you guys in the US kicked the Brits out to make it a better place. That you decided on the right to bear arms so some other idiots cant tell you what to do. Is it me or are you going backwards?:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/desmond-tutu/arizona----the-wrong-answ_b_557955.html?ref=fb&src=sp
Yes I am well aware this is not a political forum. And if the question isnt PC I expect this to be removed. So I will just ask how do I go about suing a policeman because he didnt arrest somebody I dont like? I have a list..

[Jehu]

I thought you guys in the US kicked the Brits out to make it a better place. That you decided on the right to bear arms so some other idiots cant tell you what to do. Is it me or are you going backwards?:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/desmond-tutu/arizona----the-wrong-answ_b_557955.html?ref=fb&src=sp
Yes I am well aware this is not a political forum. And if the question isnt PC I expect this to be removed. So I will just ask how do I go about suing a policeman because he didnt arrest somebody I dont like? I have a list..


Its not a personality contest.. its not about disliking anyone its simply The Law. You're not permitted entry to the USA without permission in the form of a Visa and passport or some such duely authorized permit of entry. Those who have chosen to enter without such are in violation of US law and thus are subject to enforcement action such as arrest and deportation.. Although with the recent Bomb attempt in NYC by a LEGAL IMMIGRANT the suggestion we are at risk from Terrorists illegally crossing in from Mexico or Canada may need a little fist pounding on the podium to get across.

I didn't bother to read Arriana's Bloviations becasue I have a full stomach at the moment and want to digest it normally.

[whiskychaser]

I'm not moved by old Desmond's grocery store tale. The UK Border Agency dont write you a nice letter first. They just come and lift you. I just found it bizarre somebody had decided you can sue a cop if you think he isnt doing his job. Appreciate you putting it into perspective Jehu. Hope your dinner wasnt spoiled:)

[Jehu]

I'm not sure I did that because like i said I hadn't read the article or heard about a case like that. Since this Arizona law is so new and widely publicized Some people who feel very strongly about the necessity of not only this law but its vigorous enforcement want to help things along. I suppose anyone can sue anybody here if a Judge will allow it to be heard.. I think certain public figures can at times have immunity from prosecution or can not be subject to litigation in particular instances but As a principle I have no problem with a citizen suing a police officer for failure to do his job. that border can be an extremely lawless and dangerous place. The stories of violence and the financial stress on public resources from illegals using services allotted for American Citizens is not being overstated. Things like emergency rooms and schools when relying on public taxpayer funding for operations are unsustainable when their patrons to a large extent are not paying into the tax base. then when innocent ,law abiding taxpayers are suffering violence on top of having their resources drained off by people who;s contributions are negligible at best I can see why they'd stop at nothing to effect dramatic changes .

The Saxons had eventually to learn the Normans had taken charge of England . So too must the Mexicans accept America is here to stay and we control our border and what lies above it.

Many Mexicans hold to a belief that since their ancestors abided in and
ranged across what is now the American Southwest that they have some pre-existing right to claim some supra citizenship without respect to US Policy ... they would just as soon see the border dissolve and America cease to be but who would fund their welfare then?

[bsell]

There is some merit to the argument that the U.S. is mis-named, or at least, has snubbed our northern and southern neighbors with our name. I.E. how 'united' of an America can we be if we don't include everyone from the southern tip of South America to the far northern reaches of North America?

That being said, we deal with what we have...and what we have is a country under invasion. The best way to deal with this is to enforce the laws on the books (you hear me Homeland Security!) and change the one about automatic citizenship just for popping out your momma on our soil.

Momma has to be in the country legally and have a reasonable connection to the US to acquire citizenship for the baby. Many other countries protect themselves this way, why shouldn't we? True enough, some babies end up with no country this way (born abroad by illegals or to work visa mommas), just add this to the list of things kids blame on their parents!

[Mr._Graybeard]

This is what worries me: illegals are not just fleeing poverty in Mexico but also drug-financed criminality and widespread official corruption. The violence is starting to spill over the border, and the guys pulling the trigger are not the same men working landscaping and construction jobs. We're going to need soldiers down there eventually, because we've got Colombia circa 1990 on our southern border. Send enough physically capable, disgruntled workers back home, and we may add a political rebellion to the mix.

[repenttokyo]

I think I remember another country that required you to have your 'papers' with you at all times to prove who you were / are and your 'status' - oh yeah, it was Nazi Germany.

Anyone in the US who thinks that this isn't the tip of the wedge for requiring all citizens to carry proof of birth or citizenship at all times needs to wake up. Anyone remember this?

THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Your driver's license doesn't prove that you are American. What is to stop the gov from asking that ALL citizens carry a birth certificate at all times, and if they are stopped without one they are jailed? What is to stop checkpoints from being set up outside of cities or on highways just to 'verify' papers. Doesn't that seem 'reasonable'? Of course not.

It's a step down a slippery slope that ends up with NO ONE being free in their own country.

[whiskychaser]

I think I remember another country that required you to have your 'papers' with you at all times to prove who you were / are and your 'status' - oh yeah, it was Nazi Germany.

TBH thats part of what prompted my original post. I didnt want to say so because I dont want to cause offence. Strangely enough one of my parents was in Paderborn, a couple of miles up the road from Lippstadt, when we bombed it. So I can hardly claim that immigration per se is a bad thing. Our govt fines a truck driver £2K a head if somebody stows away in his truck but has just halved the number of Border Agency employees at two of our major ports. And no, I'm not going to name them. Are we not better investing in finding people who shouldnt really be here rather than making laws to police our own police? Surely its the guys in white hats that pay the speeding fines and taxes. The guys in the black hats dont

[RobZR]

I have only 1 question.

how many other counties don't require proof of citizenship?

everyone I have visited has required me to show a passport if I couldn't supply a form of national ID card. Not supplying either landed you in a cell.

Rob

[Mr._Graybeard]

OK, so what if we got past the argument whether Arizona is trampling the U.S. Constitution, and move on to whether this piece of legislation has a chance in hell of having its desired effect.

According to the US Census, the population of Arizona is 30% Hispanic. Toss in another 5% who are Native American -- are the Arizona cops actually going to spot-check one-third of the state's population on the basis of their ethnic characteristics? Keep in mind that the statistic doesn't include the people who actually ARE illegal, since they generally don't fill out census forms. (according to the official numbers I could find, about 6.5% of the Arizona population is undocumented).


The state legislature has passed other laws on illegal immigration, and they're widely ignored. Why? In the words of Walt Kelly, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

Mexico has been an economic and political vassal of the U.S. since the late 19th century. Under the conditions our national and corporate policies helped create over time, life is no picnic. Poverty and particularly corruption have flourished. Our taste for mood-altering substances has created a shadow government that isn't much less oppressive than the official one.

So who can blame the average Mexican for wanting to leave? We're going to have to make conditions pretty damned ugly here for Mexico to look like a good alternative to illegals.

[repenttokyo]

I have only 1 question.

how many other counties don't require proof of citizenship?

everyone I have visited has required me to show a passport if I couldn't supply a form of national ID card. Not supplying either landed you in a cell.

Rob

in my province of Quebec in Canada it;s actually illegal for the police to ask you for ANY form of ID when you are in a public place. Whether you are a citizen or not. Canada is not a police state and you are not required to carry ID.

In Canada, you don't need to carry a passport with you at all times. you won't end up in a cell...i've never been to a country where I have been required to carry a passport at all times. Of course, I have only been in 10 countries in my lifetime.

[632 Regal]

Arizona has to crack down on illegals because the fvcking government refuses to secure the border or even allow anyone or any group to do so... period.

Yes it is unconstitutional for them (AZ) to profile but the USG has been chipping away on the rights of its own citizens for a very long time, it just recently is speeding up. AZ is doing what it has to in order to try and protect it's people. Many citizens living close to the border have been killed already.

[bsell]

I have only 1 question.

how many other counties don't require proof of citizenship?

everyone I have visited has required me to show a passport if I couldn't supply a form of national ID card. Not supplying either landed you in a cell.

Rob

I remember the National ID card idea being paraded around several Presidential election cycles ago. Man, people got their panties in a wad over that idea. Something about being American and "don't need to show no damned ID card to prove it..."

Showing an ID card is second nature after 19+ years of Air Force living. Show it to get on base, use the BX, and basically any other transaction that proves who I am.

If people want to get serious about maintaining some semblance of border control, then give us a simple tool to do this, the national ID card. Fits into the wallet like the other stuff, i.e. driver's license, credit cards, CPR card, etc.

Will this open up a blackmarket for fake Nat. IDs? Sure enough, just like the $100 is getting changed to stop counterfitting, or at least slow it down.

Can you imagine the huge undertaking this Nat ID would be? How many new jobs would be created just to process/issue IDs? Just how many Americans are there? 300 million something? Crazy, but maybe the time has come to bite the bullet and do it...

[Mr._Graybeard]

Arizona has to crack down on illegals because the fvcking government refuses to secure the border or even allow anyone or any group to do so... period.

Yes it is unconstitutional for them (AZ) to profile but the USG has been chipping away on the rights of its own citizens for a very long time, it just recently is speeding up. AZ is doing what it has to in order to try and protect it's people. Many citizens living close to the border have been killed already.

The strongest step we could take to enhance our national security is to legalize street drugs, and not just marijuana. I'm too lazy to look beyond Wikipedia for statistics this morning, but the numbers they quote is 90% of all cocaine and 70% of all illegal drugs coming to the US through Mexico. That's a far bigger problem than the people doing honest work without documentation, but the law enforcement lobby would scream if we took away their anti-drug pork.

Until we cut off the revenue stream to drug cartels, the problem is only going to get worse. All we need are some politicians with the cojones to declare that prohibition isn't working. I'm not gonna hold my breath.

[Elekta]

Go to Germany on a foreign exchange MBA program during Oktoberfest, get drunk and throw up in a subway station...be sure to have left your passport in your dorm because you were afraid of pickpockets. Be sure to speak next to no German at all.

After 3 days in the klink you will be ready to leave Germany, with your passport, broke and disgusted by the police who berate you in broken english because you live in the same state as GWB.

Now a drunk and disorderly Mexican (not an hispanic Arizonan) in Tuscon will get the same treatment.

If Team Obama can't hear the squeaky wheel coming from AZ, they aren't even listening. They are politically dividing the Hispanic population to grow their dwindling base. As someone whose part time employees are majority hispanic and from Mexico originally, I feel the Governor's pain.

[632 Regal]

Problem is the Military is in charge of defending them opium and other crops all around the world. If there wasn't money in that and oil we wouldnt have 1% of the related problems.

[repenttokyo]

Go to Germany on a foreign exchange MBA program during Oktoberfest, get drunk and throw up in a subway station...be sure to have left your passport in your dorm because you were afraid of pickpockets. Be sure to speak next to no German at all.

After 3 days in the klink you will be ready to leave Germany, with your passport, broke and disgusted by the police who berate you in broken english because you live in the same state as GWB.

Now a drunk and disorderly Mexican (not an hispanic Arizonan) in Tuscon will get the same treatment.

If Team Obama can't hear the squeaky wheel coming from AZ, they aren't even listening. They are politically dividing the Hispanic population to grow their dwindling base. As someone whose part time employees are majority hispanic and from Mexico originally, I feel the Governor's pain.

I actually have been to German. No, what you described didn't happen to me. I also don't speak German.

[whiskychaser]

If you are a citizen of another country and are unfortunate enough to get caught driving on UK roads with an overweight truck, you will be handcuffed and put in jail. You will appear in court next day and will only be released when your fines are paid. France has 'Flying Customs Officers' who roam the roads and get paid a commission to catch you. France does not know what 'fax' means and will only accept original documents. Their fines are extortionate and their courts slower. But when you have paid up you get a police motorcycle escort complete with sirens and lights, front and rear, back to your vehicle. A bit harsh but you have to admire their finesse.
The signs at ports and airports say 'Welcome, Bienvenue, Willkommen etc' but should perhaps include the well used phrase 'Terms & Conditions apply'.
If we are looking for a solution I think Regal makes a fair point about drugs and oil. But its a bit hard to criticise somebody for wanting to move to another country because they think its a better place to live and bring up their families

[Bill R.]

Not really wanting to step in here but i saw a number of misconceptions on these posts. The census numbers for Tucson are wrong, the number of hispanics is closer to 50% , As far as most of them wanting to move here and bring their families, not true either. Most of the illegals that i know or have met work here and send all the money back to mexico to the wive and kids, they don't want to live here, just want the income here... Having lived in Tucson for more than 40 years i have noticed the illegal situation change considerably in the last 10 years.
I'm as liberal as they come but i have no problems with this new law. As far as showing ID, i've always had to show id every time i've been pulled over, Profiling isn't an issue either.






If you are a citizen of another country and are unfortunate enough to get caught driving on UK roads with an overweight truck, you will be handcuffed and put in jail. You will appear in court next day and will only be released when your fines are paid. France has 'Flying Customs Officers' who roam the roads and get paid a commission to catch you. France does not know what 'fax' means and will only accept original documents. Their fines are extortionate and their courts slower. But when you have paid up you get a police motorcycle escort complete with sirens and lights, front and rear, back to your vehicle. A bit harsh but you have to admire their finesse.
The signs at ports and airports say 'Welcome, Bienvenue, Willkommen etc' but should perhaps include the well used phrase 'Terms & Conditions apply'.
If we are looking for a solution I think Regal makes a fair point about drugs and oil. But its a bit hard to criticise somebody for wanting to move to another country because they think its a better place to live and bring up their families

[Mr._Graybeard]

Thanks for the perspective from Tucson, Bill.

My dad wintered in a shopworn senior colony in south Florida for many years. The houses were 2-bedroom cinder-block bungalows. At some point somebody had bought the place next to him and used it to house nine or 10 Mexican men. They were either doing landscape work in nearby Palm Beach or working in the farm fields west of town -- shovel-and-hoe guys. I'm sure their situation was similar to the one you describe -- make the living they couldn't earn in Zacatecas or Chihuahua and send the money home to family.

It was actually a pretty quiet group, given their numbers in that tiny house. I'm sure they were busting their asses every day, and nobody wanted the cops coming around. Given a choice, I'm sure they would have preferred being home sleeping with their wives and watchiing their kids play than bunking with a bunch of day laborers 2000 miles away. Maybe they felt like they have no choice.

BTW, I noticed that the legislature modified the original measure so that the police aren't supposed to run IDs simply on a whim -- an individual has to have broken some other law, a policy known as secondary enforcement. The change is in Arizona HB 2162.

I think the grumbling is mostly over the terms of the original bill, and maybe people missed the modification. I still think the measure in a Band-Aid on a brain tumor.

[philbyil]

It always has been a federal requirement, and also a crime NOT to, carry your Alien Registration at all times. And I, as a 6'2" green eyed, blonde haired Anglo, carry mine with me at all times. At every Border Patrol checkpoint, you are asked if you are an American Citizen...is THIS discrimination!

I declare myself as a Resident Alien at all Border Patrol checkpoints. No hassle really, just show the card and off you go. If the Mexican's (note I said MEXICANS and not Americans) don't like it, then bugger off back to Mexico!

[repenttokyo]

At every Border Patrol checkpoint, you are asked if you are an American Citizen...is THIS discrimination!


why should Americans even have to deal with border patrol checkpoints? what is this, east germany in the 80s?

[ryan roopnarine]

I hate the idea of anyone here legally having to identify themselves for ANY reason if they aren't driving (understanding, of course, that choosing not to do so will just create a whole 'nother set of problems for the person being asked), but since the cat is out of the bag about identifying ones self, why the hell not?