535ITT? What do you think

[Bruno]

I love my wagon but I hate the fact that it is the only car that isn't boosted nor 5 speed in my fleet.

So, what do you think about a complete M30 5 speed transplant?
3.5 M30 engine with the proper brackets and all
3.5 M30 5 speed transmission
E28 lightweight flywheel
Proper clutch to handle the new power
TCD turbo manifold and home made for the rest.

The other choice is to boost the M50 and do a 5 speed swap... but I love the M30 sooo much.

[BMWDriver]

Can't go wrong with a bigger engine if you want more power... But, I guess it's a matter of budget and what kind of figures you want. I understand there's a lot to be had with the M50 turboed, but maybe less has to be done with the M30 depending on how much power you really want? I'd have to read a lot more on the subject though. I always think about Jon's crazy moded M50 that IIRC spews in excess of 600 HP... rebuilt, bored, powder coated, custom pistons, custom exhaust and headers... his elaborate calculations and onboard computer...

There's a lot to consider I suppose. If your M50 is still good, if you can find a good M30 and tranny...

[Bruno]

I am not looking for 600HP for a summer car, I have the race car for driving fast. Just a little bit more power, 300+ would be perfect.
I can pickup a 535i 5 speed for 500ish and rebuild then engine then put it all into the station wagon.
The M30 is well proven with boost. The M50 works also but prices for a turbo kit being the same, I might as well go with what I know best.

[Sam-Son]

Stick with the M50 its a far superior motor

[Bruno]

I guess I could go M50 non vanos with TCD turbo manifold... already has individual coils... New learning curve, why not.

[genphreak]

Yes, M50 is an M-motor produced in a production process. More efficient, more refined. But not as big. Very economical though, unlike M30. I'd boost it with a MAF or a Megasquirt and enjoy the best of al worlds ;)

[Bruno]

M-motor my rear end, hardly M when the s50/S52 engine was a tuned version of the M50/M52, not a true M engine, and M lovers didn't like that. They corrected the problem with the E46.

I do agree though that the M50 non vanos is a good base for turbo. If you guys are interested I will post the list of parts, where to buy them and the cost. I think the whole process will cost $2,000 roughly. Yet I still love the simplicity of my M30 engine...
Now... where to put the intercooler???


Yes, M50 is an M-motor produced in a production process. More efficient, more refined. But not as big. Very economical though, unlike M30. I'd boost it with a MAF or a Megasquirt and enjoy the best of al worlds ;)

[BigKriss]

yes post up the details, i would like to see them

[Bruno]

Some parts new, some parts used: Prices in USD

Walbro 255hp: 100 (used or new)
Tial Wastegate: 150 (used)
Intercooler: 70 (ebay)
Intercooler piping kit: 50 (ebay)
Manifold: 350 (new)
Exhaust: home made (price depends on skill)
Oil feed kit:40 (new or used)
ARP Head studs: 120 (new)
Injectors: 150 (used, 30 to 42lb)
Megasquirt: 300 (new)
Turbo: 400 (new or used)
Boost gauge: 25 (VDO)
Wide band 02 sensor: 150 (used or new AEM)
clutch and lightweight flywheel: 400

Some prices can go down depending on the choice of parts. I am looking for a reliable 10Psi intercooled daily driver setup.
If you are not in a hurry, parts can be found until you get the complete setup.

[BigKriss]

these prices look too cheap. are you buying the new parts from ebay or elsewhere.

I need some oil lines and gauges for my turbo kit, do you recommened tcd to supply them or another vendor, considering I;m in Australia also.

Actually do you have an email address I can contact you on?

[Bruno]

For the race car I bought some VDO gauges and I really like the vintage look of them. They are easy to read.
For the Oil lines, TCD has a nice long line, you can also look at other suppliers, I didn't buy it yet.

[genphreak]

With an M30, it is not as easy to fit more hardware in the bay. A supercharger is better for M30 from a design/layout perspective.

With an M50, you get the intake on the right side already, so all you need do is relocate the battery if it is there, and/or the washer bottle to add a turbo.

The M engine comparison just depends on your perspective. I don't agree with anti-S50 criticisms: The S50 in the US was a problem as Americans didn't like the idea of a smaller performance engine (let alone getting a raw deal due to BMW having to do too many last moment emissions retardations). With the same cars/engines developing much more power in europe, they could hardly buy with confidence something that was clearly not the best so it got a bad rap to go with the dumb cam and fuel map combos. Those that did couldn't go around crowing about the sheer power of their cars and had to put up with 'just' the bare refinements (LOL!).

However, BMW didn't intend this. When the M50 was released, the L6s it replaced were the aged M20 and M30, M88, S36, S38s, all bigger engines and they had committed to V8s for the 5 series, a while beforehand. So they needed a smaller M engine to suit the 3 series. Now in comparison to what M50 replaced, the smaller L6- the M20, M50 had numerous improvements: lighter plastic intake, decent oil pump and improved internal oiling, 4 valves per pot, coil on plug, no distributor, a MAF, a similar head and combustion chamber design (much improved breathing and efficiency) most of which was learned from years of building and racing the S36 and S38.

Note: Every one of these were things that distinguished M30 from its S engine counterparts.

The power difference between M50 and M20 was considerable too (in stock form), and it wasn't just a 'better computer'. It even used less fuel.

With things like cracked conrods to boot, hell- the M50 provided M-ish features, though much de-tuned for efficiency and low pollution. All it really missed were extractors and fueling upgrades. At base model pricing, it was an awesome list of engine improvements to get back in 1990. I certainly don't see how m50 and S50 don't compare: Add a set of extractors, a decent tune and you are not far off M-performance. Change the cams at the same time and you practically do have an S50. YSWIM:What difference then remains other than seperate Throttle Bodies which do not really deliver much until you open the bonnet and gawk!

My M50 powered e34 can move, sure not like the M30, but it uses so much less fuel and no mods needed.

To turn and M30 into an S38 is much harder work: You have to do crank, rods, pistons, head, valvetrain, cams, all ignition, all intake, extractors- the list goes on and on. An M50 is more sensible as you can use most of what is there and only change cams, outake, Fuel Maps, and if you can leave a turbo+ecu to phase 2 very easily...

[Paul in NZ]

i would love to see what can be done with modern applications to the M30 with a higher comp ratio.Delete afm,mega squirt specific maps etcetc

[Bruno]

http://www.bmwe34.net/Ebay/E30M30.jpg
My friend's Rod's E30 335it conv. M30 engine transplant with a TCD turbocharger kit and megasquirt, same basic setup as my race car.
Extremely fast car, handles amazing on the track also. No MAF.

http://www.bmwe34.net/Ebay/E24M30.jpg
This is stage 2 of my race car, front mount intercooler, no MAF, TCD manifold, custom watercooled turbo and piping, Megasquirt and wasted spark. (note the lack of disributor cap and rotor)
Soon: ITB and front fiberglass bumper

[genphreak]

Gret to see the fruits of some of your work Bruno. The E30 seems a major challenge particularly for space and balance but, yes, we can see from that how rewarding it might end up!

[genphreak]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Bruno. A very interesting build indeed. I'm hoping you'll go M50 as I have a 95 525iT and one day... it may lose the auto, get some proper seats, a nice wheel and a little 'boost'... but plenty other projects before that, most likely an B35 turbo first.

[Bruno]

Yes I am going M50, I am picking up a spare 525i to mock up the setup then transfer it to the touring and for the 5 speed swap.
And I will document every step with price sheet and what parts you will need. This should help some E34 owners keep their cars and have more fun with them.
I might also give diagram and measurements for custom muffler system.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts Bruno. A very interesting build indeed. I'm hoping you'll go M50 as I have a 95 525iT and one day... it may lose the auto, get some proper seats, a nice wheel and a little 'boost'... but plenty other projects before that, most likely an B35 turbo first.

[Paul in NZ]

With an M30, it is not as easy to fit more hardware in the bay. A supercharger is better for M30 from a design/layout perspective.

With an M50, you get the intake on the right side already, so all you need do is relocate the battery if it is there, and/or the washer bottle to add a turbo.

The M engine comparison just depends on your perspective. I don't agree with anti-S50 criticisms: The S50 in the US was a problem as Americans didn't like the idea of a smaller performance engine (let alone getting a raw deal due to BMW having to do too many last moment emissions retardations). With the same cars/engines developing much more power in europe, they could hardly buy with confidence something that was clearly not the best so it got a bad rap to go with the dumb cam and fuel map combos. Those that did couldn't go around crowing about the sheer power of their cars and had to put up with 'just' the bare refinements (LOL!).

However, BMW didn't intend this. When the M50 was released, the L6s it replaced were the aged M20 and M30, M88, S36, S38s, all bigger engines and they had committed to V8s for the 5 series, a while beforehand. So they needed a smaller M engine to suit the 3 series. Now in comparison to what M50 replaced, the smaller L6- the M20, M50 had numerous improvements: lighter plastic intake, decent oil pump and improved internal oiling, 4 valves per pot, coil on plug, no distributor, a MAF, a similar head and combustion chamber design (much improved breathing and efficiency) most of which was learned from years of building and racing the S36 and S38.

Note: Every one of these were things that distinguished M30 from its S engine counterparts.

The power difference between M50 and M20 was considerable too (in stock form), and it wasn't just a 'better computer'. It even used less fuel.

With things like cracked conrods to boot, hell- the M50 provided M-ish features, though much de-tuned for efficiency and low pollution. All it really missed were extractors and fueling upgrades. At base model pricing, it was an awesome list of engine improvements to get back in 1990. I certainly don't see how m50 and S50 don't compare: Add a set of extractors, a decent tune and you are not far off M-performance. Change the cams at the same time and you practically do have an S50. YSWIM:What difference then remains other than seperate Throttle Bodies which do not really deliver much until you open the bonnet and gawk!

My M50 powered e34 can move, sure not like the M30, but it uses so much less fuel and no mods needed.

To turn and M30 into an S38 is much harder work: You have to do crank, rods, pistons, head, valvetrain, cams, all ignition, all intake, extractors- the list goes on and on. An M50 is more sensible as you can use most of what is there and only change cams, outake, Fuel Maps, and if you can leave a turbo+ecu to phase 2 very easily...

still would like to see a m30 upgraded as much as poss...

[genphreak]

All we haven't done to date with an M30 is add 4V and VANOS. But heh, isn't that actually an S36? But I agree w the sentiment, it'd be nice to have an upgrade path that offers more efficiency for the old girl (given how many are around and need things like AFM replacement). There's only so much u can do outside the head, and those glorious big valves make it a little tough to achieve economy down low. I wonder what the fellows at miller motorsports would say about efficiency.

They do some work on B35 heads but it looks to be totally performance oriented (http://millerperformancecars.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=106&category_id=40&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=30), (or at least the measurements are).

[Paul in NZ]

might have to buy another one and go to it