Automatic Transmission issue?

[e34.535i.sport]

Hello again - It's been a while!

I've returned to the dark side :P and I've been enjoying my e39 530d Auto (138k miles) for a while now but I'm a little worried and thought you knowledgeable guys could help!

I'm getting a noise from what I'm assuming is the transmission, for the first few minutes of driving each day, so when stone cold. The noise rises with revs not speed, and is what I would imagine to sound like an engine without enough oil in it??? It's a bit of a knocky noise if that makes sense?! It isn't present however if I leave the car in neutral and rev it so I'm counting out the engine (recently serviced too!), but I could be wrong there... It doesn't last too long, only a couple of minutes but it's enough to make me drive VERY slowly and carefully until it warms up - Once warm it wont happen again all day! Otherwise the box works well and I don't have any issues with it, which is good!!

I have a laptop software that reads codes and gives me live data that worked perfect for the Jag I had but wont connect to the e39, I've emailed the company so hopefully they can get me connected so I can see any codes etc if there are any and give u guys some more info!

The assumption I've came to so far is that the oil in the auto transmission has seen better days and is causing problems when cold??? Any thoughts? I want to change it out but I know there's a big debate on this!!! Yet with my symptoms, I'd hope it would be more beneficial than risky?

Thanks very much in advance,

John


P.S - I found some upper/lower front suspension arms from my e34 the other day when rifling through the attic - They're not new but seem in perfectly useable condition if your struggling for an MOT or whatever (I was in the habit of 'if it's not broke, fix it' back then!) - My good friend WhiskyChaser had first refusal but having recently done his they're free to a good home, you would just need to pick them up as posting them would cost a small fortune!! (I'm in Liverpool UK).

[whiskychaser]

Hi John. I cant remember what year your 530D is? I think the box in your car may be a Getrag not a ZF? Supposed to be on my hols but cant resist logging in. Sad, I know

[Tiger]

Don't automatically think it is the transmission. You got a diesel? It could be the turbo that needs to be checked for any freeplay in bearing.

[e34.535i.sport]

Hey guys, thanks so much for the replies, I'm beginning to get worried about this now...

Whisky - I hope all is well and you're enjoying yourself!! It's a 2000 btw! (X reg)

Tiger, I had the same thought just today... You may be on to something I think. The more I think about it the more I'm unsure what's causing it... It just might be turbo related. However I think the noise may be worsening.

Here's everything I have found out whilst experimenting in the mornings:
*It will make the terrible rattling noise as the revs increase when I first pull away in the morning. In park or neurtral I am pretty sure I don't hear it at all however (I.e not under any load... Even when cold. This is the weird part)
*It also feels 'sticky' when first driing off in the morning. (I.e If i hold at 50% throttle it will seem like the handbrake is on for the first few seconds then as though it is released, and it's more free to move (but rattle noise worsens as revs increase)
*Once warmed up the rattle is totally gone.
*MPG is down from ~30mpg, to ~26mpg (usual journeys)
*I think the turbo is making more whooshing and whistling noise than usual when accelerating, however it has always whistled.

The fact that the rattle is only a 'cold' problem made me suspect an 'oil' related issue over anything else, but now I'm unsure. Turbo? I need to see how the power is but I'm babying it a bit at the moment to be honest, until I can figure out what it is.

What would you guys advise looking for??? I'm thinking I should try to get a look at pipes to/from the turbo etc... If I can even get a look at it (Unfamiliar with the underside of this car, it's been pretty good to me so far!), what should I look for on the turbo side of things?

Thanks again, any input seriously appreciated.

[Tiger]

To check the turbo, you have to disconnect the fresh air intake tube... stick your finger in to feel the blades and try to wiggle it... if you feel any play... i mean any play at all, the turbo needs to be serviced. You do this while the engine is cold of course!

Other thought may be like EGR... which I am not sure if diesel engine got one of these thing...

I don't know much about BMW diesel and I saw an opisode of BBC Wheeler Dealer about the Saab Turbo... I think it was a 9-3 convertible... and Ed was talking about the turbo and explaining about some of the typical symptoms... Do more research about your car... most likely someone else had a similar problem and solved it already.

[e34.535i.sport]

Thanks Tiger, you make real sense. A friend of mine who is a mechanic just had a quick listen to the car and said the turbo is sounding loud. I will be examining it this weekend definitely. The only thing I can't find reason for if it was the turbo is the knocking/rattling noise when cold but disappearing when warm.

It does have an EGR yes, I'll check this out too - I'll explore any avenue at this point! I've researched my symptoms for hours and there are similar ones out there but not the specific combination I have... However I might have two problems going on simultaneously (I hope not though!)...

I'll report back once I've examined the turbo...

Thanks again!

[e34.535i.sport]

UPDATE!

I got a good look at the turbo today (intake side) and felt the impeller - no play at all on it and the impellers looked fine as well without chips etc. I did find however that two of the small thin vacuum pipes on the turbo were loose (one very loose and near the end od the nipple!) so I'm hoping and praying this was causing the issue! I pushed them on firmly and put it all back together and took it for a test run... Turbo noise seemed significcantly less and it felt like there was a lot more power too. THe big turbo pipe on the intake side did pop off as I was driving (at which time I sh*t myself!!) but I think that was my fault for not tightening up the jubilee clip enough!

I don't know how a small vacuum issue like this could cause so many problems but I'll be very happy if that's the case... I'll know for sure tomorrow if the horrible rattle/knocking noise is gone on cold start - I'm dubious but we'll see!

Thanks for all responses so far.

[Tiger]

Good job! Let us know.

[e34.535i.sport]

Good job! Let us know.

I couldn't be happier with how this turned out, car is running perfectly now! No noise or 'stickyness' this morning on first drive, shifts are smoother, turbo is soooo much quieter and power has returned! All that from a simple vacuum hose, unbelieveable! I thought I was looking at fitting a new gearbox or turbo next weekend!!!

Thanks very much for the help and comments, I learnt a valuable lesson not to jump to conclusions.

I have the autobox filter and gasket now but I'm still unsure whether to change the oil or not seen as the box is running so well, but I hear it will help a good box and kill a bad one... It's a tough choice!

[Tiger]

No... that is old wive's tale... if you got no problem, change the filter and fluid as normal... 50K miles or km equivalent is the most I will go on the fluid.

If you do have problem with tranny, change it too... if it works, tranny will work normal again... I have seen two cases of this.

If the tranny is bad and really bad, changing the filter makes no difference... this is where you got to overhaul it.

And DO NOT EVER BELIEVE LIFETIME FLUID... ever!

BTW, Congrats on your repair! Didn't cost you a nickel!

[whiskychaser]

I'm not a great believer in the theory that the crap in the gearbox holds it together either :-) I can see how the mpg would be affected if you have a vacuum leak. What is the theory on the knocky noise though - bad combustion? Great result John!

[Tiger]

I suspect detonation for the knocky noises.

[e34.535i.sport]

Hi fellas - Yeah I'm pretty chuffed to be honest, massive improvement and car feels great again! The knocking noise however was there again this morning :S only very slight though in comparison, MUCH MUCH less than before... It's a puzzler. The only thing I can think of is rather embarrassing and I didn't really want to bring it into the equation but I did fill the car up with Petrol on the 2nd August (My wife's Bday!!) :O ... I know, what a muppet. I didn't run it of course and emptied the tank and refilled with Diesel before running it, at which point it ran perfect on first turn of the key. Thinking about it now though the timing is about right, yet it only happens when cold and is PERFECT after that. Detonation would be a problem with petrol in the tank though I'm assuming due to lower combustion temp??? I did flush diesel through using the fuel pump without starting the car before running it so I thought it would be all sorted? What do you think??! Could the residue from the fuel tank be enough to cause issues? Or could it have affected the fuel pump enough to cause issues on cold start??? Sorry for the questions - Just typing as ideas enter my mind!!!!! Yet why would the problem now be significantly reduced?!

Glad you questioned this Whisky - I hope I've not buggered something up and had the two problems on the go at once!!

[whiskychaser]

You will probably have read that you can damage the high pressure fuel pump with petrol. In which case you get swarf floating round the system. But you flushed your system and your problem goes away when it is warm. Is it possible it isnt actually a knock but a misfire? Maybe an injector leaking to the air or the exhaust leaking near the manifold? The noise might disappear as the metal expands with heat to seal a gap.

[Tiger]

Old diesel cars can run with like a gallon of unleaded fuel with a full tank of diesel.... like 20 gallons worth of diesel. No problem. Old timers use this technique to clean out the system.

What I would do is change the fuel filter first... maybe it is kinda clogged but unlikely... but if the fuel flow rate is affected... then that can cause the problem.

How long has it bince since that incident? Have you run the tank down or refill since then?

Check the vacuum hoses again... turbo and elsewhere. Unless you have access to a evap smoke machine... in which you hook up to your vacuum system and it will show all the leaks you have.

[e34.535i.sport]

I'm really glad you guys are with me on this, it's wrecking head!! Lots to think about there, and I ordered a fuel filter last night thinking the same thing!! It's strange because there's a massive improvement in both noise and running, but the issues that I've found still are:
1. Same noise only on initial running in the morning, just less pronounced.
2. I found today that it still is reluctant to go at times, then will spring to life (i.e as though the handbrake is released.
3. More power than before, but less than I think should be there now.

I didn't think the petrol would be an issue as it didn't get into the engine or injectors... And it's been about a month! However it did go through the fuel pump/s so Whisky, I fear you may be onto something. This may explain all three issues (made worse by turbo vacuum leak before???) - I'm pretty sure the noise is coming from the passenger side, which I think I read is the position of one of the fuel pumps?? It could have been damaged due to lack of lube when pumping the petrol out and it makes the noise when dry in the morning??? Seems to make sense. Would also explain power loss and hesitation if it wasn't operating properley. However I'll try the fuel filter first, might just be lucky you never know!!!

I'll also check out all vacuum hoses this weekend, thanks Tiger... I know there's one that leads to the EGR that needs checking, and others I probably dont even know of!

I really appreciate your thoughts guys, you've been really helpful throughout and helped me keep my sanity!!

P.S - Whisky - What is this swarf I hear about??? The only one I know is the one I use after messing with the car!!! :P

[whiskychaser]

I thought you did metalwork at school John?:-) Swarf is metal shavings. They reckon the diesel lubricates the high pressure pump and petrol takes away the lube so it runs metal on metal. It is supposed to be that bad you can see it in the tank! I agree with Tiger that you used to be able to put a bit of petrol in the tank for winter running but with these modern diesels you cant. That said, how much petrol can you have put through? A pint? I doubt that is going to kill the pump. If its not a leaky gasket I reckon a duff injector. In which case the engine will be a bit lumpy and vibrate more. IMHO if there was any real damage, it wouldnt just go away when warm would it?

[Tiger]

Bad EGR will cause knocking and lack of power. So follow the procedure and see if the EGR is bad. They are something that has to be replaced regularly.

[shogun]

a bit off topic, but I found zf repair manuals here, for the 4hp22 it is $20
ZF 4 HP-22 Repair Manual, repair manual, Cars Repair Manuals (http://www.epcatalogs.com/zf4hp22.html)

anybody bought there, looks like it is a site from Russia?

[e34.535i.sport]

Haha, I honestly don't think I've heard that before! Then again I probably didn't listen hard enough!!! :P
Whisky, I put 10 gallons of petrol in it :O ... Unbelievable I know!! It had about a gallon of diesel in there too. It's still hurts thinking about it. I never ran it, got towed home slowly, disconnected feed pipe to filter - turned key to position 2 and primed fuel pump... Out came the petrol. Took a little while so pump damage is possible and it did make a high pitched whine when the tank was totally empty. Then I put a few litres of diesel in and flushed it through the pipes the same way to get rid of the petrol. Could I have done anything better??? When I started it up after this it ran perfectly! I don't remember having any issues at all after this but the pump may have been damaged through lack of lube yes? And when I run it in the morning it's possibly sticking or noisy, then once a bit of diesel goes through and re-lubes it it goes quiet again? Seems feasible? I also researched symptoms for a couple of hours last night and the pump under the passenger seat is a common failure and can be noisy when on it's way out. Some said that it would be sluggish at low revs/speeds then suddenly spring to life, much like what I'm experiencing. Yet I have no trouble starting? I have my fuel filter now though so will try that before work tomorrow just incase I get lucky. I certainly hope it's not injector or high pressure pump on the rail, and I doubt any petrol got anywhere near these (at least I hope not!).

I know what you mean though about it disappearing when warm, but the noise goes literally within a minute I'd say, way before the car hits temp... Still makes me think pump. I just feel as though the car isn't responding as well as it should still also, but my brain is mashed with it at the moment. It is driving smoothly though in general and gear changes are fine. I might need you to come and test drive it to see if it's in my head!!

I'll also check the EGR thanks Tiger, I've read a lot about these and encountered it when removing the swirl-flaps shortly after I got the car. DO you mean the EGR unit or a sensor that is regular maintenance?

Off to do more research now... Been at it for hours and hours, cant see to relax knowing there's a problem even though it's not a major one.

Hey Shogun, not seen those before but I'm hoping I won't need anything like that now, or ever!!! :P I was pretty scared when I thought the box was on the way out!!!!

[e34.535i.sport]

PROGRESS!!! Just changed the fuel filter over and decided to prime the filter by putting the feed pipe on and leaving the one leading to the injectors off and turning the key to pos2 to start the pump to fill it up. When it was full I put the other pipe on and tried to start but it died. Turned to pos2 again to let pump build some pressure and could hear the passenger side pump pretty loudly and more importantly a loud gurgling noise from the back of the car (like bubbles rising) every 2 seconds or so in a rhythmic pattern - It was a loud and bizarre noise!!! I think there may be a prob with the in-tank pump and poss the in-line one... I also rocked the car by hand pushing down on the front strut and bouncing it - I could hear a big sloshing noise from the rear of the car that continued after I stopped bouncing the car... What could that be? Can the in-tank pump disconnect and move around??? Thoughts much appreciated on this, I know little/nothing about in-tank pumps on these. I'm definitely getting closer though - I think we're winning!!! :D

Thanks again fellas,

John

[shogun]

I have heard of cases on other BMW that the pump could get lose inside the tank when not properly installed or the plastic broke.
That you have to check.

Also, I just remember that for example on E38 models they had problems with tank breather valves, so there was so much vacuum that even the tank shrank.

You can test that, when opening the tanl lid and you hear a strong suction sound, then something is wrong with tank airation, see RealOEM.com Online BMW Parts Catalog (http://www.realoem.com) for the system

[Tiger]

Could you explain more about this vacuum in tank? Alot of my cars has that strong suction... thought it was normal.

[shogun]

here we go
http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/5-series-bmw/37913-vacuum-fuel-tank.html
GROUP 16 16 04 97 Woodcliff Lake, N.J. February 1998
Fuel Supply Systems Product Engineering
SUBJECT: New Evaporative (Charcoal) Canister Purge Line
MODEL: E38 and E39
Situation: A new style evaporative canister purge line has been introduced into production on all E38 and E39 models approximately 3/97.
The function of the purge line is to allow outside air to enter the fuel tank via the evaporative canister. This equalizes pressure in the fuel tank as the fuel is drawn out during engine
operation.
The one end of this line is open to atmosphere and the other end is connected to the center fitting of the evaporative canister.
If the evaporative canister purge line becomes restricted or clogged the resulting vacuum in the fuel tank will cause the tank to partially collapse.
The customer complaints may be:
A knocking or a tin canning type of noise from the fuel tank area of the vehicle and / or when removing the fuel tank filler cap a hissing noise is heard (pressure equalizing in the tank).Cause: Investigation of restricted or clogged evaporative canister lines has indicated the following three possible causes:
-- line pinched
-- rubber grommet not seated correctly between the center fitting of the evaporative canister and purge line
-- insect (spider) nests
Note: If this type of line restriction is found blowing through the line with compressed air will not remove the nests completely due to the sticky nature of this substance. The line must be
replaced in this case.
Correction: If the above customer complaint is received and the evaporative canister purge line is restricted or clogged on vehicles produced prior to 3/97, it should be replaced with the new style purge line.
The new style purge line (1) is now shorter than the early style line (2) and incorporates a plastic screen on the end which is open to atmosphere as shown in the illustration below. The screen prevents unwanted objects from entering the open end of the line which may cause restrictions or a complete line blockage.SI New Evaporative (charcoal) Canister Purge Line BMW AG - TIS 11.09.2003 20:00 Issue status (10/2001) Valid only until next CD is issued Copyright Page - 1 -

your gas tank is crumpling inward due to a defect BMW has know about for years (http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/410780)

fuel tank noise RESOLVED with pics
fuel tank noise RESOLVED!!! (http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/110831)

Scan of Service Bulletin B 16 02 98
Scan of Service Bulletin B 16 02 98 (http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/110834)

[Tiger]

Wow... great info. Now I got to do some research on the evap system where all the items are other than BMW.

[whiskychaser]

Isnt there something about the 525TD in tank pump dragging in air? Realise yours is a 530D but that might account for the gurgling? Cavitation isnt good for a pump. Yours fires up fine so this may be a red herring

A guy on another site put £25 of petrol in his 2003 and followed it with £70 of diesel. He is now on 2000 miles and absolutely no issues. He is either lucky or there is hope for you yet John :-)

[e34.535i.sport]

Hey thanks shogun I do need to look into that I almost got into the tank today infact but decided against as it's got way too much fuel atm - I'll run it down this week and get in there to see what that sloshing noise is!!

I did however solve the power problem!!! Changed the inline fuel pump (under the passenger seat) and the car pulls like a train now and strangely doesn't slow as quickly!!! I also fixed the handbrake and began to fit a boost gauge lol! Busy bee :P Got a good vacuum reading where I pumbed it in but no boost reading... I'm pretty sure it's boosting though as it really is shifting now, so I need to try another pipe! (There's loads of them!!)

Thanks again for all the help chaps!
P.S Look out for my boost gauge thread - I may need some electrical assistance!! :D