'95 E34 M50 manual M50 won't turn over.

[Marcusd]

Hi all,

I wondered if anyone had any ideas with a problem on one of our E34's?

At 275,000 miles, It's mainly a parts car now for our other 525i manual E34 of the same year. It does need to be drivable though so I can keep moving it up and down the driveway to get things down the drive from the garage.

It's been sat for a while and is normally only started every few weeks. I try to remember to charge the battery once every few weeks but forgot recently and flattened the battery. I've charged it up and even though theres 12.5V at the battery and all the dash lights up when I put the key in the ignition, it doesn't crank over when I turn the key.

I thought about the battery not having enough load so attached some HT leads from another car with it's engine running. Still nothing. I tried it again a couple of days later and it started first time. I switched it off and restarted it several times. Ok, I thought, maybe something was damp and had dried out.
A week or so later and I'm still unable to start it more often than not. It started again last weekend, but wikll not turn over since.

I've checked all the fuses and cant see any blown, although, being intermettent, it shouldn't be a fuse anyway. All the dash and guages light up as normal. Ive tried all 3 keys to see if the immobiliser had lost it's settings, but again this shouldn't be an intermettient problem.

I've removed the DME and the cotnacts are dry and clean. I opened it up and it's dry and it's perfectly dry and clean inside.

One thing I've noticed is that with the BMW INPA software and OBD cable, it doesn't seem to be able to talk to the DME/ECU. I'm pretty sure my car would have the 3.3.1 DME, but I've tried all the other options too. I can talk to the EWS Immobiliser and it sees the key etc. Under the ISN Password section it reports "ERROR_ECU_REJECTED".

I suspect the ECU/DME is not being activated when I turn the key, but being on an intermittent basis, I'm a bit stuck. If you start the car with the DME disconnected, this is exactly how the car would behave. I'm going to confirm that my laptop can talk to the DME with the same cable on my other halfs E34 when she gets home tonight.

I don't really want to have to scrap the car, but If I can't move it, I'll have to.
Does anyone have any ideas on what might cause this?

Cheers, Marcus

[Marcusd]

I've just checked on my other halfs E34 and I can't talk to any of the available DME's under the E34 Engine section on her car either. Maybe my cable was only designed for the E38 that I bought it for?

The EWS/Immobiliser thing is also irrelevant as the INPA shows the same "ERROR_ECU_REJECTED" under the Body, EWS, ISN PW part of INPA.

I supose it's possible the starter motor/solenoid is stuck but I thought I'd hear a click.

[Tiger]

The next time you can't start the battery... grab a hammer and whack the starter and then see if it starts... I think it is the starter going bad. You can also hear a click even if the starter doesn't turn over. You can check with voltmeter on the selenoid.

Other possible reason is fusible links. Since this is a manual tranny... neutral safety switch on the clutch pedal.

[whiskychaser]

I'd check you have a live coming down to the small starter terminal when you turn the key. A bulb with a couple of wires with crocodile clips on the ends would be handy if you are working on your own. If the bulb lights, you know the immobiliser isnt getting in the way. After that, I'd check the engine ground is intact. You could use a jump lead from a decent sized bolt on the engine to one on nuts on top of a shock tower. If you still have no joy, you could short the two large solenoid terminals. If the starter motor turns, you know the solenoid was stuck.

I have a copy on INPA which doesnt have the files for DME 3.1 or my auto's TCM so it just will not talk to them. I actually use DIS which does

[Marcusd]

Thanks for the ideas, I've narrowed it down a bit. I put the positive probe from my meter on the small top terminal on the starter and the other on a suspension strut tower nut. When I turn the key, I still get 0V on the meter. There is also no audible click when I turn the key.

I've taken off the under side of the steering column to check for lose wires etc and the antenna of the EWS seems undamaged and plugged into the small EWS unit on the side of the steering column.

I tried using DIS to run a quick test on the DME and the EWS but both just seem to sit there saying test in progress. My version V57, doesn't really have tailored tests for the E34 though, its a sort of generic group including E32's etc.

[whiskychaser]

It is a Euro car so I dont think it has a clutch switch does it? That would make me lean towards the EWS. IIRC the actual control unit is hidden away behind the left from floor speaker and contains a starter relay. But let someone confirm before you jump in :-)
I am using easyDIS v44. The 'quick test' is a bit of a contradiction in terms - it takes about ten minutes on my car

[Marcusd]

I can't see a clutch switch, no.
I've found a little black EWS control unit on the steering column which the ring antenna plugs into, but don't think this is the main unit as it's only the size of a Zippo lighter.

I've tried the car with jump leads connected to another car which had it's engine running and it still wouldn't crank. Central locking and sunroof are fine but I have heard strange things about these cars when the battery isn't too good under load.

I tried removing the battery and connecting another battery. The first attempt I then heard a very brief try from the starter motor, but nothing more after that. I have that battery on charge now just in case. If it was the battery not working under load though, I would expect it to still start with jump leads from another car with the engine running.

Maybe having the battery disconnected for a while made the slight difference?

I found a fuse under the back seat F33 I think, which is related to the anti theft system. If I remove this fuse and put it back in ,a relay in the saem box clicks. If the fuse is there, I might try to work out what the 2 control units are in there too. Maybe one of them is the EWS.

[Tiger]

I don't know why I didn't think of this first... Hook up a remote starter switch and see if your starter turns over. It is a simple tool that you hook up the selenoid switch to the main starter battery cable... if your connection is correct and starter is good, by pushing the remote starter, the starter would crank over the engine.

Some starter has more then one small connector so check the wiring diagram for the starter.

From what you said... I think your starter is dead. If the starter works perfect with the remote starter... then it would be something else like the starter relay or ignition switch. But hey, if you can start it up with a push button... lol... rig up the remote starter in the engine compartment... lol... you have to make sure it is in neutral and ignition on...

[Marcusd]

I've tried the upper smaller connector on the starter for 12V with the key turned and am not getting anything there. If I'm not getting 12V here would the starter switch still be worth a try?

The starter's main thick positive lead goes straight to the positive jump lead connector under the bonnet, so that must be permanantly live I'm guessing. So do I wire the positive smaller connector on the starter to the main thicker positive wire via a push switch?

There are two smaller connectors on the starter one above the thick positive cable and one below. The top one the Bentley manual reckons you should get 12V on when the key is turned. I put the positive probe from my meter on this upper small connector and the negative proble to one of the strut mount bolts.

[whiskychaser]

The wiring diagram says the small black/yellow wire is the one that throws the solenoid. So yes, you could just jumper it from the main live. That could well throw the solenoid and make the starter turn. But if the immobiliser circuit is the problem it may crank but it isnt going to start. Are you using a big battery as 'slave' and heavy duty jump leads?

[Marcusd]

I've tried jumping the car using some pretty thick leads connected to my running V6 Shogun, it still wouldn't crank.

The battery in the car had ran completely flat though so maybe not too good under load. I also tried connecting another car battery which I use in the caravan in parralel with jump leads so both were powering the car. It still wouldn't crank.

I'm not hearing the soleniod click so don't think the ignition sequence is getting that far. I was hoping for some magic start relay somewhere which was playing up, but I've now got both speakers off, the underside of the dash off and not found anything yet! :( Half the problem is that the realys and locations change from year to year, model to model.

I think I may have found the main EWS module though by looking at second hand ones on Ebay, it looks like its under the drivers side dash on a RHD model. I've seen a big yellow connector like the ones one Ebay whilst I've been poking around in there.

[Tiger]

When you are doing remote starter trigger, it doesn't matter if ignition is on or not. All we are trying to do is test the starter to see if it works.

So one small terminal is to throw the starter gear forward to engage... and one is to turn on the starter and spin the starter. The big wire to the starter is always hot. You can check with your multimeter.

You must remember... BMW immobilizer does NOT cut off the starter. You can always turn the engine over but won't start the car.

If you can't get your starter to make a noise, your starter is dead. Take it out and take it to any auto parts store and let them test it for free... it is most likely dead.

[whiskychaser]

I agree with Tiger. If you power up the solenoid, the starter should turn. I've not had my starter apart but on some cars the solenoid also engages the dog with the ring gear. So if you jumper the two large terminals it may spin but not engage. AFIK, there was a starter immobiliser relay fitted to E34s from EWS1?:
http://www.computersolutions.cn/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/BMW_EWS.pdf
The dates in the file seem very late for Euro cars though

[Marcusd]

Hi, my car has EWSII, Ive found the contol module for it now. Yesterday, I tried it and got a very brief action from the starter then the lights dimmed.

I didn't seem to be getting good voltage at the main battery cable to the starter. It starts around 3V and gradually climbed. I tried re-earthing the engine to the chassis with a jump lead. I started removing the inlet manifold to have a look, but got stuck because of the 2 upside down nuts holding the manifold on from the outside. I can't get under the car in the position it's stranded on my drive.

As this is really just a parts car, I've decived to scrap it now as I don't want to spend anything on it to keep it running. If I could have got it relaibly starting fro no money it was viable. It's a shame though as not only was it in daily use when I took it off the road, but it has many new parts on it, from recent front strut inserts, aux fan, tyres etc..

It has to be relaibly mobile though so I can gegt my motorcycles and a caravan down the drive, so it's time for it to be recycled.

Many thanks for your help guys, but its not worth putting any more time into just to keep the car for parts.

[whiskychaser]

3 volts? That isnt going to power a bulb let alone the starter. Sounds like you a fusible link is shot. (You may well have 2)

[Tiger]

I agree with whiskychaser...It is such an easy fix. Whatever you do, I hope you get your money for your scrap car. Good junk yard pays for scrap car or donate it to some charity and get tax deduction. Just tell them that the car only has a starter issue.

If you got 12.6V at the battery and only 3V at the starter, it is the fusible link.

[Marcusd]

Sorry guys, that was a false alarm. I've just been and cleaned the contacts up on the starter and can get 12V on the main battery feed, but still not 12V on the top smaller contact, which Bentley think should also show 12V when the key is pressed.

Just a thought, but it will be very low on fuel as I cyphoned most of it out. I've never heard of E34's stopping the starter from activating if the fuel level is too low. But for the sake of £7, I might try putting a gallon of fuel in just to check it's not something silly.

The strange thing is, occasionally it fires the starter for a very brieft part of a second then stops. Maybe it's just the reaction time of the EWSII.

[whiskychaser]

Save the £7 - no way on this earth is low fuel going to stop the starter turning. Can you disconnect the small wire from the solenoid and test it for 12v when you turn the key? I say this because you may actually be getting a voltage on that wire but a fault in the starter could be dragging it down. That could give you a low/nil reading. A long shot but possibly easier than removing the inlet manifold. And yes, the two bracket bolts that go upwards are a real PITA. I can only get them with a short ring spanner and move them less than a 1/4 turn at a time

[Tiger]

He still need to get a cheapo remote starter trigger and hook from the big starter wire and another to one of the smaller terminal on the selenoid to see if the starter works!

[whiskychaser]

He still need to get a cheapo remote starter trigger and hook from the big starter wire and another to one of the smaller terminal on the selenoid to see if the starter works!
I agree. I'd just short them across with a screwdriver

[Marcusd]

The shorting method is worth a try. So shorting the main battery positeve lead to the top (according to Bentley), positive lead should trigger the starter?

I suspect the fault is EWSII based, but I'll definitely give this a shot before I write it off.

I've had that £2000 car for 11 years and did over 150,000 self serviced miles from its 270k ish. :)

My other half's 525i E34 was bought for £750, 5 years ago and apart from needing a fuel pump, is great at 200k miles.

The 2000 E38 740i I have now has needed the buying cost again in parts and 100 hours of my time so far. Great car when I get it right though. I wanted to keep my old E34 on the road but once I'd changed the insurance to my 740, they wanted silly money to insure it short term. In the UK we need to keep a car insured or surrender vehicle tax and declare it as off the road.

[Marcusd]

Sorry,whiskey chaser, just realised you're from Oldham! :)

I tend to find the older Beemers are more popular in the States.
The owner forum culture for BMW's is priceless and a reason I stick with the brand.

[whiskychaser]

Just got another car. It was SORN and I needed a cover note to tax it. Came to download it and the insurance website asked my first name, DOB and postcode. I put them in and it told me my name was wrong! :-) My older son was born in Dover - I lived there for 5 years in the '80s.

In all the diagrams I have seen (and on my starter) there are two small terminals. The wire you want is black with a yellow line. The other wire is black with a green line and goes to the OBC, GM etc. That should have power to it anyway so I cant see you going wrong. I am not in work tomorrow so will double check mine if that helps

[genphreak]

Sorry,whiskey chaser, just realised you're from Oldham! :)

I tend to find the older Beemers are more popular in the States.
The owner forum culture for BMW's is priceless and a reason I stick with the brand.

Yea but BMW is out to shut down its community by threatening anyone who puts their technical info online. I wonder sometimes whether if they could censor what we say on forums, they would. Its a fine line between maintaining an enthusiastic following and maintaining servicing revenue.

Of course, the real figures are intangible, so they will continue to make mistakes- for better or worse.

The moment someone makes a decent car with a sustainable, open technical diagnostics and maintenance software, I'll consider replacing my 5ers. That probably means I'll be retro-fitting 300kg of LiPo batteries, capacitors under the rear seat and wings full of wind turbines and solar panels...

[Marcusd]

I won't use a main dealer for servicing. The only time I did was when I was 300 miles from home with no tools. I had a physical trans cooling issue caused by a blocked heat exchanger. They charged me £200 to spray some contact cleaner on the trans ECU?!

I even told them that when driving through stranding water, the overheat problem went away for a few miles. There is no electrics involved in the transmission cooling whatsoever in the E38. How they diagnosed dirty electrical contacts is beyond me.

[genphreak]

Marcus, several things to check if you have not already:

Battery posts must be clean, use a little Vaseline (the brand name might be different in the UK IIRC) or carbon grease to keep it good.

If your car has a sunroof, or even if it doesn't, check there is no water under the rear passenger side carpet.

e34 have L-line comms bus, so you need a special connection known as an ADS adapter. These are not hard to get- the best ones have the board actually built into the round connector.

Nothing will get damp and cause a no-start condition, other than if the cause of that is a flat battery caused by constant drain due to a short.

Reading your posts I suspect your battery- have you used a known (extremely) good one? Just becaus a battery runs another car doesn't mean anything. Your EWS/DWA e34 is more sensitive to startup voltage, intermittent voltage drops and is not light on raw current draw on a cold morning. 12.5V is acceptable but if it drops below 12.5V you can expect numerous, sporadic problems that don't make sense- starting with no-start issues. IMHO in sub-tropical Australia which is light work on car batteries, these cars need a DIN85 battery (the big long one), especially in sunny, warm blighty.

Remember key wear components include more than just brakes, pumps and fluids- less sexy culprits like O2 sensors, injectors, fan clutches, heat-affected solder terminals in a couple of the electronic modules (LKM, IHKA, RM), 50p in-line fuses that look and test fine, not to mention the fuel and perhaps a few other relays, and batteries that have some voltage but don't always.

BTW, if you get an L-line interface and use INPA, it will be able to talk to the body module and some other modules (ZKE/Air con). It will also talk to the DWA/EWS **and** report error conditions- inclusing how many replacement keys can be programmed to suit the car.