E34 530 540 power steering heavy

[632 Regal]

Figured I would start a separate thread on this issue, doubt I will be spamming the board with repetitive stuff.

200K miles, calls for CHF 11S
Looks like cloudy crap with a tint of red, might be a bit of flake or glitter from the holidays too.
Must have been changed 170K ago, maybe.

Both the low pressure hose on the reservoir and the high side have hose clamps. Someone was in here at a time in the past... for sure.

Steering features are the same as over tightening the adjuster on top of the box.
This is what I assumed was done as the nut behind the wheel is overtightened too.

On the freeway the wheels go whatever direction they want to while the steering wheel stays wherever you point it. No road response, Very dangerous. You seriously can't look away from the road for more than a couple milliseconds or you will die and kill everyone with you.

I was thinking about going in there and readjusting it I realized that it is a LOT of work and nobody in their right mind on a minimal payment to get the car ready for auction would do. That said I am going with the idea that whatever is in there shouldn't be and the box was not touched.

CH11S is some pricy stuff so in doing research found out that CHF 202 is the newer replacement. They can be mixed and are backwards compatible whereas the CHF 7.1 is not. Neither is ATF or anything else for that matter. No generic one size fits all, I didn't personally experiment with different fluids in the past so I wont here.

I plan to drain the fluid, turn the wheel lock to lock a few times and then add a little bit of new stuff, run it and drain it again. This worked in the 94 so well that 120K later it is still crystal clear. Never needed to change it again and that car steers like a BMW should.

I am going to use the CHF 202 simply because it is compatible and costs less. I picked up 2 litres for usd $36.80 to my door! : http://www.ebay.com/itm/151023926626?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 This is the cheapest I have found for either pentison fluids, FEBI/Bilstein etc. Since I only want to do this once I want to use a name brand product. Local stores don't even carry Febi or Pentison but that have BG, valvoline etc and some other stuff I don't want to mess with.

Anyways here is where I am starting. I will update after the new juice arrives and I swap it out. I am very optimistic that the crap in there is the problem and not the adjustment.

[TechnoWeeny]

@Regal, I'm interested in what you are doing, why your doing it and how your doing it. Your timing is impeccable, as I'm doing the exact same thing with my E34 540i but for a different reason, my power steering pump was leaking, so I procured a new one ex USA and some Pentosin CHF 11S (only place I could find that stocked it, was my local BMW dealer) at a cost of AUS$35.00 / Ltr. So at this cost + the expensive pump I hope this is the answer for my woes.

Please post regular updates as I am only half a step behind you :-)

[genphreak]

Jeff, great thread. I sure hope your steering box is not snarfed!

I've seen gold sparkles in the fluid as a result of pump wear in older v belt (non LAD) systems. The sintered filter collects it up in the reservoir.

Clearly it is difficult in your position, I always have trouble decideing how tight to make the nut (bolt) behind the wheel and have never done more than a 1/4 of a turn on the steering box myself as so many say don't touch.

Just read the specs on the Pentosin website: Both fluids appear quite similar but I wonder if we can use 202 why is BMW not doing so. It is not listed as approved so I assume BMW has a reason other than being (very) slow. But who knows... maybe Pentosin make the cost of 202 to the production line the same but charge more for 11S in the aftermarket. Maybe 202 is very similar but not actually as good. Who knows!

(Subscribed)

[632 Regal]

Jeff, great thread. I sure hope your steering box is not snarfed!

I've seen gold sparkles in the fluid as a result of pump wear in older v belt (non LAD) systems. The sintered filter collects it up in the reservoir.

Clearly it is difficult in your position, I always have trouble decideing how tight to make the nut (bolt) behind the wheel and have never done more than a 1/4 of a turn on the steering box myself as so many say don't touch.

Just read the specs on the Pentosin website: Both fluids appear quite similar but I wonder if we can use 202 why is BMW not doing so. It is not listed as approved so I assume BMW has a reason other than being (very) slow. But who knows... maybe Pentosin make the cost of 202 to the production line the same but charge more for 11S in the aftermarket. Maybe 202 is very similar but not actually as good. Who knows!

(Subscribed)

202 is the replacement for CHF11S CHF11s is not being produced anymore (far as I can tell). Compatibility is 100% according to pentison with chf11S. Do not mix this with CHF7.1 as the additives drop out and can cause a cavitating condition.

The stuff is approved by me. Let them do their politics, I just learned the new stuff is compatible and cheaper if you can find it. Hard to find owners that actually change this stuff every 2 years. I want my stuff to last, not for a week till I sell stuff. Why spend 20 when you can spend 25 and good forever?

[shogun]

You can use a product from Febi Bilstein, that is compatible and cheaper.
They have one as replacement for Pentosin CHF 7.1 and the other one is for Pentosin CHF 11S.
06162 aka M6162 = mineral based in the white bottle is for 7.1
•Mineral oil-based
•Size: 1 liter (1.06 quarts)
•Color: Green
•Equivalent of the discontinued Pentosin CHF 7.1

Fits:
•Audi/Volkswagen (1984-1989)
•BMW (1987-09/1991)
•Volvo (1995-1998)

•Ideal for cold weather climates
•Operating temperature range from -40ºF (-40ºC) to +275ºF (+135ºC)
•Works perfectly under extreme temperature changes
•Used by more than 25 global vehicle manufacturers as OE first-fill
•Meets DIN 51 524T3 and ISO 7308 specification standards


Febi S 6161 is for CHF11S replacement or mixing

[genphreak]

202 is the replacement for CHF11S CHF11s is not being produced anymore (far as I can tell)

How do you know this? The pentosin.com website shows both side by side.

But I agree with your sentiments- esp. if the FEBI 6161S fluid has not caused any problems yet, as Erich suggested...

[632 Regal]

Spent more time getting the car on ramps than actually changing the fluid. That was sure some ugly fluid. Did not do a fantastic flush just drained filled and drained again (rotating the steering for more drain). I would like to do it again after I see what the leak is all about. Hard to tell but looks like the gearbox seal by the bottom of the shaft, then again everything is wet on top of the compartment. Doesn't seem to be leaking at the ends of any hoses I can see, all clamps were snug. Another day I will crawl in there again.

Steering is like brand new, not heavy at all and returns to center like it should. Amazing what the wrong fluid can cause.

PS this CHF 202 is a light blue color, not sure if I would consider it as green like CHF 11S or the Febi 6161.

[genphreak]

Steering is like brand new, not heavy at all and returns to center like it should. Amazing what the wrong fluid can cause.
PS this CHF 202 is a light blue color, not sure if I would consider it as green like CHF 11S or the Febi 6161.

Good to hear Jeff, congrats! A result indeed.

BTW: Your blue is their green:

Fr the spec sheet:

Pentosin CHF 202


Appearance green, clear DIN 10964

Density at 15 °C kg/m³ 840 DIN EN ISO 12185

Kinematic Viscosity at 100 °C mm²/s 6,1 DIN EN ISO 3104

Kinematic Viscosity at 40 °C mm²/s 19,3 DIN EN ISO 3104

Kinematic Viscosity at -40 °C mm²/s 1400 DIN EN ISO 3104

Viscosity Index 302 DIN ISO 2909

Flash Point °C 154 DIN EN ISO 2592

Pour Point °C -54 ISO 3016

FZG wear test (A/8.3/90) Failure Load Stage 11 DIN ISO 14635-1


Interestingly, BMW is the only manufacturer NOT approving 202- all the others who previously used CHF11S do. I wonder if they (VW,Volvo, etc) are instructing dealers that 202 is a replacement for 11S...

[TechnoWeeny]

Sounds like you have got the result you were looking for Regal!!! Thanks for the update, I'll go ahead now with installing my new P/S Pump and fluid and post the results I get too.

[632 Regal]

How do you know this?

Because


The stuff is approved by me.

[632 Regal]

Well I was wrong, I didn't completely flush the mud out of there. Today was cool and the steering was heavy, about half as much as when I got it. I checked the comparison between the 202 and 11S and we should be fine. Thinking the residual is jacking **** up. Will order a couple extra litres to do this correctly. Looking below there is no reason to believe someone raised the engine to adjust the nut there.

Started the 94 up and took it for a drive around the block (5.7 miles) Perfect cold and all the way. Will try a reflush as there is only a 50K mile difference between. I cant sell the 94 till I figure this stuff out.

[MBXB]

Both are still available at the local NAPA down here in Tampa

[632 Regal]

We have a revelation!

23 degrees out and I went to pull out the driveway, Crunch Crunch!!! Turned the wheel straight and Crunch Crunch! I noticed the blinker lever was moving the same as the steering wheel when I turned it. This is the tightness and binding all along. Something is not right in the steering column, not at all. If I can get the glove box open and IF I have the radio code this should get a little more interesting today. Might be someone used some grease in there that don't like the cold. Seems to loosen up after driving a few hours but still the blinker moves with the wheel. It also threw the SRS code and then it said brake light circuit, the last error went away after shutting it off and back on.

http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showthread.php/44509-Removing-the-airbag-and-changing-the-dash-bulbs-A-BillR-Archive

[632 Regal]

Update again...

Removed the airbag, thought I stripped the torx bolt/screw and freaked out a bit until I realized I must have used a #25 and not the #27. These things are in there pretty tight and I can't imagine what I would have done if it did strip. Anyways I disconnected the 2 wire leads and put the airbag in a safe spot.
Edit: These are actually a Torx #30! Would have never known until I bought a #30 for another project and realized how close the 27 & 30 are. Much nicer fit and had no worries about stripping them out this time.

Removed the steering wheel bolt, a 17mm was too loose and 15 was too tight so I used a 5/8 which fit perfect.

Tried removing the wheel and couldn't disconnect both wires so I pried the bottom cover off after studying how it clips together and I found a bunch of goodies. The big orange connector I cut out after so I could figure out how all this is supposed to go together inside where it was warm.

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Here is the wires and the slip ring behind the wheel

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The slip ring was very tight and wouldn't move much at all. I took it all apart, cleaned and used Vaseline for the little brass centering ring that holds it together. It spins fine now. The slip ring is supposed to have 6 free turns and mine has 5. I centered it in position where the tab holds it while you reassemble things. This slip ring does not have any metal to metal contact for the horn or any connections, it just centers and lets the 2 plastic parts turn freely.

What I am guessing happened is the slip ring popped off the little plastic dowel that holds it from turning in the column and freed up the tightness. While things were moving it must have pulled the wires disconnecting and trashing the wires and connectors. I will try to glue this back together and tape it or something once I figure where the metal connector piece goes.

[genphreak]

Ahh the airbag wheel on an EWS equipped >95 column. The airbag connector has one way (which is of course, the most, unapparent way), of coming apart.

IIRC, you have to slip out the orange rectangular piece- either that or you do but it makes no difference (!). Done it a few times but can never remember the knack one needs, now I just fiddle and fiddle and eventually pop it off in a way that seems so damn obvious I should have tried in first... it's just one of those 'brilliant' connectors that took someone who was far too smart for their own good and also hell-bent on making it impossibly efficient and ended up making it improbably ridiculous to work with. Of course it didn't fail to do its job in the field, so they went with it anyway.

How do you know the sklp ring has free turns? IIRC mine had something like 7 or 9 half turns total movement. I counted out the total turns, then wound back half way to find the middle before mounting it all back (with the wheels straight). Worked for me fine that way.

[632 Regal]

I can't figure out where that metal thing goes. Nowhere online or anywhere else can I see where it would possibly go. It's almost like someone threw that in there just to mess me up. The copper color tells me it is electrical in nature so it should go in the crushed up end but it don't lol. Some sort of safety in case someone pulls the thing apart? Idonno.

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[632 Regal]

it goes like this.

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I need a new plug end to solder on and be done with this. I have no glue that will work on this plastic. My fingers feel like they are in a cast from superglue.

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Edit: I hot glued the connector together making sure not to fubar that mystery electric component above. What it does is ground the 2 airbag leads on the steering wheel side male connector.

I also figured out why the blinker was moving with the wheel. The tabs holding it on the top broke so I zip tied it solid and that is fine. The way the wires were routed into the column was wrong which lead to the plug getting pulled into the hub instead of simply disconnecting. Anyways this chapter is closed.

[genphreak]

Thanks that's a much better pic, now I see what you mean...

No magic fixes for that- I'd get a new connector though; a jerried airbag plug may void insurance and/or kill you driving!

Re Superglue: It is is fine for clean plastic but the quality varies results. The best stuff is q-bond and you can get others- they are similar to plain superglue but of consistently higher quality than generic super-glues. Also, they come with black powder stuff to allow you to build up material to fill gaps, make up for missing pieces, gouges and so on. Panel shops use them for fixing cracked bumper-covers and filling gouged parts that can be painted.

Re the Vaseline- make sure you change it out quickly, petroleum jelly has a melting point is a shade over body temperature, so it won't last behind the wheel once the sun hits the windscreen. You need some carbon grease with a high melting point for the airbag and horn rings. Be very careful, anything goes wrong with any of the damn stupid system and it'll end in tears...

[mattyb]

image 2 looks partially like the sinister holding clips for the rear mudflaps

[632 Regal]

image 2 looks partially like the sinister holding clips for the rear mudflaps

My fingers hurt just thinking about them.

[632 Regal]

petroleum jelly has a melting point is a shade over body temperature, so it won't last behind the wheel once the sun hits the windscreen. You need some carbon grease with a high melting point for the airbag and horn rings.

Bearing grease or lithium grease be fine? Now that I have ventured in here I am not shy to go in again. It was very cold when I did this so I used weak Vaseline... primarily because I couldn't find the lithium.

[632 Regal]

Update, I think the petroleum jelly is getting tired. Need to upgrade to lithium and get more than 1 year out of it. The summer didn't seem to make a difference although I'm pretty sure it has no lube now.

[632 Regal]

Well the vasoline is still working, don't fix it if it aint broke.

[Jazz_89]

Nice thread..BTW I used Liqui Moly ATF III on my E34, when I emptied the steering lines. I hope this wasn't the wrong one.

[genphreak]

Well the vasoline is still working, don't fix it if it aint broke.Maybe something is lost in translation, here in Oz, Vaseline is petroleum jelly.

http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8474&stc=1

The right grease for the job (conductive and high melting point) is probably referred to as 'Carbon Grease'. Not sure if it is what BMW uses on these contacts exactly, but it is probably something like this (http://http://www.chemtools.com.au/product/electrical-and-electronics/production-and-rework/carbon-conductive-grease/).

For non-conductive greases, attached below are some summaries of the main properties/types:

[genphreak]

Nice thread..BTW I used Liqui Moly ATF III on my E34, when I emptied the steering lines. I hope this wasn't the wrong one.

Fine for any of the 4 speed autos- and some of the 5 speeders too, (HP18EH) with the black ID plate. If you have green plate, you need to use the BMW lifetime (or appropriate synthetic*) fluids.

* Meaning they meet the published BMW/ZF fluid specs

LiquiMoly make very good lubes- your tranny should like that stuff, just make sure you do several changes- to have a hope of getting rid of the older fluid.

[632 Regal]

Maybe something is lost in translation, here in Oz, Vaseline is petroleum jelly.

http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8474&stc=1



That's the stuff. All I had at the time.

[632 Regal]

Update a couple years later...

Stiff steering back when real cold, turn signal sticking with the wheel and moving when turning. Christmas day and 70 degrees, perfect to check this out and lube it proper this time. Took it all apart and as mentioned above the vasoline (petrolium jelly) was virtually non existant. Not sure why its so tight but took it apart and used lithium grease under the brass clamp. Since it isn't cold can't be positive it is fixed yet. Almost broke that airbag connector that I hot glued. This isn't real easy to do without pulling wires while removing the wheel etc. Patence is not me forte, if I had patients I am in the wrong business.

Here is a picture I stole off the net of the brass clamp thing I failed to photo myself but shows exactly whats up:

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/skier11221/slipring-1.jpg

If you look under that knife there is an access slot for a small screwdriver which is what I did. All you need to do is clean the brass deal and the plastic it rides against and then lube it up. Amazing such a small thing can cause such a big drag issue and noise in turning the wheel but it does.

http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8516&stc=1

[632 Regal]

Lithium is way to heavy below 35F, it causes the slip ring to pop out of position and pull the airbag wire out. Cleaned it up and just put a small amount on it. Still seems tight at 60F. Not sure what I want to do yet. Might just put it together to see how it works in the cold, might be that petroleum jelly is slipperier... might use pet jelly again cause I had no issue last winter and it was much colder then. Yep that's what I'm going to use.

[632 Regal]

Did the trick, no problems at all in the cold like it did with lithium.

[genphreak]

Hope it works. Esp. in the summer!

There is also stuff called Carbon grease, or that calcium stuff in the link I posted last year...

[shogun]

In case the Vaseline works well for you, I will also try that on my E32 750 steering wheel, the slip ring is screeching when temperatures are cold, disappears when cabin is heated to normal temperature. Vaseline I always have in the garage as multi purpose weapon, use it also for example
for the o-rings of fuel injectors
as an acceptable alternative to automatic transmission assembly gel
holding check balls in tranmission valve body
holding the steel balls in the steering gear when assembling

[632 Regal]

SO far it still works well. Still I think it's a bit thick but better than lithium. Has to be something slipperier that can do both the heat and cold. Seems it makes turning the wheel heavy in the cold, I cleaned it back up and just used a tiny dab and still a little thick feeling on turns when under 30 degrees F. If I turn it fast the lock pin will disengage and I have to carefully work it back into position before it breaks my airbag trigger wire. Sometimes tough while on twisty mountain roads.

[632 Regal]

SO far it still works well. Still I think it's a bit thick but better than lithium. Has to be something slipperier that can do both the heat and cold. Seems it makes turning the wheel heavy in the cold, I cleaned it back up and just used a tiny dab and still a little thick feeling on turns when under 30 degrees F. If I turn it fast the lock pin will disengage and I have to carefully work it back into position before it breaks my airbag trigger wire. Sometimes tough while on twisty mountain roads.

Revisited 2018...

Same shyt same problem. 20 degrees F and cant drive without busting under steering stuff. Forget the logics, forget the grease, forget it all. Tomorrow I am going to do it again and remove the steering wheel and clean the grease and **** and going straight to graphite powder. If that don't work I don't care cause nothing else works. Never had a problem with other BMWs just this one that started with dried out grease. Let's go to graphite powder that don't care the temperature. This is a lot of work to do over and over again for nothing. Hopefully I can find all the parts and glue them together so I can make this work together.


Doing this time and time again sucks.

[632 Regal]

Waiting for some better temps to pull the wheel. Need to run a 1500 watt portable electric heater under the steering column for 30 minutes so things work nice.

I'm thinking that once upon a time someone complained about the squeaking noise and the repair was to grease it up. The grease dried up over years causing my problem.

I can not see BMW applying grease in this thing, don't make sense especially in regards to low temperatures. SO back to the idea of graphite dust, rub it on and hopefully this issue will never rear it's ugly head again. It also is a lubricant so should do the job.

Edit: WRONG! this ring does nothing but space 2 plastic deals apart, no electrical contacts at all.
(Anything you use on this ring has to at least allow conductivity for the air bag. No errors using lithium or petroleum jelly, not sure how that works but it did with the small contact area.)

[632 Regal]

The deal... The outer plastic thing is shrinking against the brass ring holding it too tight. Even graphite doesn't work. Ended up sanding the outer plastic thing that holds the spinny tape deal that connects the horn. (in hindsight I failed to check if the horn still works)

I should have sanded the plastic more but it's 20 degrees and my fingers stopped working. Was also worried about dropping the tape deal which would have caused me to throw the whole thing across the road and I really didn't want to deal with the repercussions of a move like that. Stay calm, shoot once.

Now it has a little clearance to the brass ring, still snug but I can turn it now, did also put some graphite on it which didn't seem to make any difference. The brass ring doesn't want to fit inside of the plastic deal, something about expansion between two dissimilar substances that make no sense being together. Someone got paid to come up with this idea.

I got it all apart and back together in about 40 minutes because beer and cigarettes took a priority. I'll just post some pictures, figure it out, I had to... lol

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