94 540i 5hp30 no forward

[mrudisill]

I'm a little stumped on my transmission.
Car info:
1994 BMW 540i Automatic
Mileage: 250008

History:
I just purchased the car privately knowing the trans was in question.
Previous own stated that car has never given them any problems. Said the car quit moving forward on the way home from work. Sitting at a traffic light and it just would not move.

Symptoms before:
1: Car would not move forward. Strong reverse. Disconnect Trans controller, still no forward movement (no 3rd limp mode)
Thoughts: Valve body, Solenoids, Clutch packs, Low fluid, Electrical issue.

2: Auto / manual switch would not work all the time

First Troubleshooting:
Check Trans Fluid:
Trans fluid was old, not burnt and did not smell burnt. (I'm hoping this rules out clutch packs)
Check check balls: (Common issue / failure)
Both check balls were under spec (.227 .228 vs OEM .230).
Check solenoids:
I checked all the solenoids (on / off and with pressure) and they seem fine, but I was unable to test the pwm fully.
Check Auto / manual switch:
Switch looks as if it took a bath in a soda.

Fixes so far:
Rebuilt valve body with 5hp30vbk
Replaced with OEM trans filter (aftermarket plastic will crush) and filled with proper fluid.
I also rebuilt the Auto / Manual switch located on the shift console due to improper function.

Good news. Car moves forward, kind of. I am able to get the trans to move forward in 3rd (limp mode) but something seems off. After 10 to 15 minutes of running, things seemed to work better, but that was short lived. I have (I believe) all the zf manuals and I am thinking it might be something electrical.
I can hear / feel movement when changing between P,R,N,D- etc... which is something new. (Lunging / loading on the engine)
Reverse is great.
Auto / manual switch works 100% of the time.

My questions:
1: what is wrong! (Well, just being honest.) but I guess that is the overall thing.
Main Question:
1: How to read trans codes?
1.1: CAN /RS232/ RS422 messages? what type of interface do I need to talk to the controller.
I am thinking at this time I just need to know what the computer / trans controller is seeing, issues with trans input / output speed sensors or codes, to do any additional troubleshooting. I have downloaded carsoft diagnostic software but I need to create / build the interface to connect the computer to the diagnostic port (question on message protocol /CAN or ??)
2: Has anyone seen problems like this?
3: Additional diagnostic check points?
Thanks for your opinion / help.

[whiskychaser]

1. Sounds like your A clutch is toast
1.1. You need an ADS interface
2. Yes
3. Have you checked the shift matrix (L1-L4) is sending the correct code to the TCM and that the shift solenoids 1-3 are powered up correctly?

www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Trouble/Data/ZF%20Tech%20Guide.pdf

[mrudisill]

Whiskychaser

First, Thank you for your reply and additional help / thoughts.

I started checking into the shift matrix and noticed some odd things (one pin never changed states) and wanted to reference some other documentation prior to going down that rabbit hole. I plan to perform this testing this week and would be able to have a response mid week (I hope).
Replacing / rebuilding the valve body was a good thing but now I have to shift gears (no pun intended) to possible clutch pack issues or ?.

I will update the post with my matrix and comparison.

[whiskychaser]

All the pins change from 1 to 0 (+12V to 0V) at some stage. If you haven't found it already, the matrix is in the wiring diagrams for your car here:
http://www.wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm

When diagnosing these boxes you can read what you like. But believe only what you see with your own eyes.

[mrudisill]

Okay, so I decided to run up to work on the car tonight to check out the range switch.
AGS unit is:GS 9.22
Results:
_____|_L1_|_L2_|_L3_|_L4_|
__P__|_1__|_1__|_0__|_1__|
__R__|_1__|_0__|_0__|_0__|
__N__|_1__|_1__|_1__|_0__|
__D__|_0__|_0__|_0__|_1__|
__4__|_0__|_0__|_1__|_1__|
__3__|_1__|_0__|_1__|_1__|
__2__|_0__|_0__|_1__|_0__|

I pulled out the controller and want to check it for solder joint issues or ? (just trying to remove any odd things)

[genphreak]

3 things to start

1. Have you used the exact factory procedure to fill the trans to the right level by checking temperature and topping-off at the right times (with the car dead-level?)
2. What kind of trans fluid did you use?
3. Have you verified 100% the switch is good? Perhaps replace the auto/manual switch with a known good/new one, jic. I'm sure you know it would've done this first before doing any valve body work as you may have introduced a 'bug'. You need to evaluate the error codes/pressures in the trans now, check out this thread for the L-line interface necessary to talk to the trans in E31,32,34 cars.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1650885-%28Almost%29-free-DIY-ADS-interface... there may be other options nowadays. Note: Few OBD diagnostics interfaces OR third party software apps support OBD1/non-OBD BMWs (those with 20-pin interfaces).

One things is certain, we'll all be keen to hear what you do and how it goes! Good luck...

[whiskychaser]

Shift matrix looks exactly as it should. But TBH it doesn't really matter. When you disconnect the TCM, no MVs or EDS are working - you get full line pressure to either reverse or 4th gear. I'd suggest a broken manual shift valve but you will have installed one with the valve body kit. No insult intended, but did you ensure it was hooked up correctly?

[genphreak]

Shift matrix looks exactly as it should. But TBH it doesn't really matter. When you disconnect the TCM, no MVs or EDS are working - you get full line pressure to either reverse or 4th gear. I'd suggest a broken manual shift valve but you will have installed one with the valve body kit. No insult intended, but did you ensure it was hooked up correctly? Temp sensors are also known to fail- and are easy to test. I think they cause all kinds of havoc and limp mode when broken, but I'm not sure. Certainly valve operation is the other common cause of operational/running faults.

[mattyb]

man u guys are awesome I wish I understood half of this stuff!!!!!! thank your chosen deity of choice for bimmernut folk an knowledge

[whiskychaser]

man u guys are awesome I wish I understood half of this stuff!!!!!! thank your chosen deity of choice for bimmernut folk an knowledge
I don't imagine you would pay somebody £1200 to rebuild your engine. So why would you pay that to rebuild your auto transmission? And they will not even replace or refurb all the working parts. Read all you can, ask questions and only believe what your own eyes tell you

[mrudisill]

Update:
All, thank you so much for you help and ideas.
I built the obd1 diag interface [ Thanks genphreak ] and I am working on getting the software to mesh. (I love this stuff)
I am confident that the valve body is 100% but will check line pressure soon.
I did not see anything problems or issues with the TCM, Thank god this is pre lead free!

genphreak,

1. Car is level, and followed proper procedure for fill. Check it a few times since and fluid level seems happy / consistent.
2. I used Fuchs Titan 3353.
3. Prior to the rebuild /repair, trans switch was not functional. Since clean out / repair switch works 100% and feel confident with the switch.

Once I check line pressure and pull codes (depending on the results from reading codes) and if things point to clutch slipping, I am ready to pull the trans out and rebuild it. I will take photos and create a 'how to' and post on this site as well. (As I learn - I share my knowledge freely)

Also, once I have the interface and software 100%, I will post an ISO image for others to utilize.

Thank you all again and will keep you updated.

[mattyb]

whiskeychaser, its funny I feel completely comfortable with engines, built a few before, love puling them apart etc but trannys just freak me out

[whiskychaser]

whiskeychaser, its funny I feel completely comfortable with engines, built a few before, love puling them apart etc but trannys just freak me out
I think most people feel the same way. If you have an auto box fail, you can do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv0onXhyLlE&feature=kp
Or you can find out what went wrong and fix it :-)

[632 Regal]

Transmissions are just big gray mystery boxes. Have a lot of room to spread everything out in order on a clean surface. Don't flip things over, just like if you scoop them up and pour them back in. Replace seals and frictions same way, don't disturb the order or flip things.

Clutches should be soaked in the proper fluid for a bit and then assembled. Do not rebuild with dry clutches in an auto trans!

[632 Regal]

Almost sounds like a selenoid was fubar and burned up clutches. Make sure those are good, replacing disks are for the most part kinda easy. MAKE SURE SELENOIDS are OK first!

[genphreak]

x2 on that!

Solenoids are common failures and the TCM can isolate them as a symptom/issue- but not always!

BTW, re the Fuchs 3353 fluid; it may be ok if your trans is a black-tag version, not green.

If black, you may want to try a BMW OE fluid such as:

BMW 83 22 9 407 765
BMW 83 22 9 407 807

... or the Castrol stuff version. This may be the same as the OE fluid.

(I use Castrol (Transmax Z, a green synthetic fluid) in all my black tag transmissions with great results/improved function)

[genphreak]

No worries, that's why we're here!

Very interested to see how you go with pulling the codes and any images you work-up. Good luck!

[genphreak]

Applicable more to >e38 and e39 5 and 7ers: there is a lot of CANbus hacking going on as the auto companies have not bothered to secure Controlled Area Networking in any way other than through their normal levels of apathy and by planning obsolescence. As such, obscurity is the only thing that keeps customer cars locked. Note sites like http://e46canbus.blogspot.com.au/ (http://e46canbus.blogspot.com.au/) popping up all over


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqKafI7Amd8

[genphreak]

Long discussion on CANbus hacking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=737_GtDmfH4

[mattyb]

oh man what this CANbus?

[whiskychaser]

oh man what this CANbus?
Wiki puts it pretty simply: 'CAN bus (controller area network) is a vehicle bus standard designed to allow microcontrollers and devices to communicate with each other within a vehicle'. It is like having a computer network instead of a load of stand alone PCs.

I thought the first video was good and the presenter held my attention. The second was more on topic but the guy was boring. I struggled through 13 minutes and then noticed the video was an HOUR and 13 minutes! But I'd had enough by then.

I can probably bore for England about auto boxes. But at least I try to keep my answers short and to the point. Not saying it always works :-)

[mattyb]

Thanks mate

[mrudisill]

Update on No forwards / strong reverse.
A/C clutch drum clip fingers are broken. All 15 missing fingers accounted for. Clutch packs do no seem that bad. Will upload photos of damage as soon as I get fresh cells for my digital camera.

[Bill R.]

On my 5hp19 it was all the fingers on the dg clutch drum and was available aftermarket on ebay redesigned. I didn't know the 5hp30 had a similar problem.

[whiskychaser]

Take no pleasure in being right first time :-( Surprised you didn't find any bits in the pan. A/C on the 5HP30 and D/G on the 5HP18/19 are essentially the same design so perhaps it is not surprising they both fail. IIRC, the 5HP18 and 19 share the same part number. I think the actual issue on all of them is pressure regulation.

[mrudisill]

I found a 5hp30 at the scrap yard. It is from a 97 or 98 740. My question is that if I get this trans, with trans controller, will it 'fit'? I'm thinking the differences would be the minimal. I'm not sure since it is a 5hp30 that they would change much. Any thoughts or opinions / ideas?

[genphreak]

BMW follows the serial number to establish i the trans will fit, but that one will fail the test for sure.

If connectors are the same, you may find differences in all kinds of things- if you do that I'd check everything on the input and output side, verify the ratios are the same (might not be a problem) but the e38

- had a more powerful 4.4L engine
- came with much larger diameter wheels and
- is a heavier car, so a lot 'in the box' (the entire box configuration done by ZF) ***will be different***

If you do get it and end up using it for parts, it may have some upgrade items- valve body, electronics, etc.

Beware any connector differences, they could have put the trans on CANbus for all I know (unlikely, but e38 was the first BMW with CANbus, which is why so many people can't figure out the electronics!)

[mrudisill]

Thanks. I will have to verify the year of the possible replacement. I've been searching all day to verify things prior to going forwards with the swap. I would much rather have a 5hp30 from the same rev. Well, I would rather be able to buy the a/c drum at a good price, but we all know that's not going to happen. I plan on doing lots of research, cross ref parts, and check multiple forums to see if anyone has done something similar (sure I'm not the first). I am worried about the CANbus too. Wish I had some more options. Not do searching yet. I am not 100% sold on doing the swap yet but think it would not be too bad. Worse case would need to change out the tail shaft
Well, off to perform more research. Thanks to everyone for your help!

[whiskychaser]

As genphreak says, keep it simple. If you want plug and play, pick another gearbox with the same ZF number as yours. It will end in 010 or 029 from an E34 or E32. Details are in the spare parts catalogue:
www.e38.org/5HP30%20spare%20parts%20catalog.pdf
Of course, unless you inspect it, you are not going to know if a 'new' used box is any better than your own

[632 Regal]

What if it does infact go forward in manual/winter mode? Mean it's just the VB issue?

[whiskychaser]

What if it does infact go forward in manual/winter mode? Mean it's just the VB issue?
A clutch is used on gears 1-4. In winter mode, it starts in second. So it sounds like the A clutch may be OK but there is an issue with engaging first gear.

[632 Regal]

A clutch is used on gears 1-4. In winter mode, it starts in second. So it sounds like the A clutch may be OK but there is an issue with engaging first gear.

Thanks, according to Kirt he says pull the pan and if there are aluminum chunks it's the drum. If no chunks then it's the valvebody. I have also read of someone that had no chunks but it was the drum. Just trying to understand as much as possible with this.

[whiskychaser]

Well, as you probably know, they often split where the circlip fits. Bits get ejected like shrapnel and are very easy to spot in the pan. I would guess he also told you that the root cause is probably wear in the pressure regulator? They will run for a little while with a blown drum but you can't really call it normal operation.

Am I right in thinking you get gears 2-5 and reverse but no 1st gear?

[632 Regal]

Well, as you probably know, they often split where the circlip fits. Bits get ejected like shrapnel and are very easy to spot in the pan. I would guess he also told you that the root cause is probably wear in the pressure regulator? They will run for a little while with a blown drum but you can't really call it normal operation.

Am I right in thinking you get gears 2-5 and reverse but no 1st gear?

I really cant tell if it's 1st or 2nd, my boy 'borrowed' my battery and I am in the dark with it. It wont move in any forward gears unless 'M' is pressed (reverse and drive same time?). Only bought the car and moved it a couple times, don't even know if it shifts which is why I want to be armed with info before I go on in there. Reverse shudders, most likely low on fluid but no leaks. Someone might have been in the pan before I bought it so if there are no chunks it may have been emptied. Hate to do effort on the VB if I need to transfer it to another trans.

I haven't spoke with Kirt in many years just found a hot topic on the subject. He was pretty adamant about the valve body update though and didn't specify pressure regulator. But yes that is what seems to be an issue with the 5hp30's.

I know the 5hp-19 from the '3 series had some serious issues about blowing out the circlip retainer bits on the drum due to the sticking regulator. My sons car has that exact issue at the moment on his 323i. The GM's trans from the same era had an intermittent issue with reverse which is a solenoid.