clunking while applying the brakes AFTER installing new thrust arms

[twastheglow]

I'm a brand spanking new member on this forum (not new to BMW and not new to BMW forums, lol). I'm hoping you guys can help a brother out!

I purchased Lemforder thrust arms for my '95 540i to eliminate the horrible shimmy it had at highway speeds. I installed them correctly...left and right, bushing torqued down while the suspension was loaded on ramps...and as soon as I got the car all buttoned up to test drive it I now have a VERY pronounced clunk as soon as I hit the brakes. It doesn't matter if I'm going 5mph or 50mph. It will clunk every time I press (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/#)the brake. The shimmy is gone, but apparently at the expense of my new clunk.

I tried unhooking the (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/#)sway bar end links and the car still made the same clunk. So I ruled that out. After I put it back together I decided to take a couple mile drive to try to further discern the symptoms better. This is what I found:

The front end clunks once when hitting the brakes then again when releasing them. It'll also clunk once when applying the brakes all the way to a dead stop then clunk again when the vehicle stops; even without letting off the pedal. The car will clunk if it goes over a severe enough bump, but truly tends to remain clunk free while driving as long as the brakes are not applied. I found that applying the brakes VERY lightly will NOT make it clunk. I also found that if I travel at the same rate of speed (no acceleration or deceleration) while applying the brakes AND pressing the gas the front will clunk like crazy over every little fault in the road. My father stood outside each front wheel while rolling the car at less than 5 mph and seems to think the clunk is coming from both sides.

I've spent 3 full days since the install going back over everything. My procedure was this...

-jack the front of the car and put both sides up on stands
-remove wheels
-loosen the sway bar bracket enough to get a box wrench in to the bushing nut to hold it while breaking loose the bushing bolt
-break loose the ball joint nut and remove
-use a pickle fork to pop ball joint out
-have one person hold the box wrench while I used a socket to remove bushing side bolt
-same on the other side
-install new arm
-install the ball joint and snug up the nut a bit
-install the bushing side and snug up the nut/bolt a bit
-tighten the ball joint nut all the way
-same on the other side
-put the wheels back on and lower the car down onto ramps so the front suspension is fully loaded
-torque down the bushing side nut/bolt
-tighten up the 3 bolts on the sway bar bracket
-torque wheel bolts

So as you can see, I really didn't touch much. And I'm having a really hard time believing it's another part all the sudden.

I think it's even more than the (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/#)weight shift as it'll clunk like a mother over every fault in the road while maintaining speed while pressing the brake pedal (using both the gas and brake). I think it has more to do with the stress and pressure put on the front suspension during braking. I did have someone walk next to the car while going less than 5mph and pumping the brakes. That's how we determined it's happening on both sides...again more of an indication as to my procedure being the culprit. We did not try it with the hood open because it's coming from right inside the wheels.

With all things considered I think it's the new ball joints. Which would imply it was my installation job. But those nuts are damn tight. Could I not have "seated" them correctly since the car was in the air? Whatever it is, it's happening on both sides.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

-Mike

[genphreak]

I'd expect one of the arms has a faulty bush, joint or bearing if your checks were thorough. You may well be right though, it is probably a joint.

Jack it up and use a pry bar to put pressure on each and 'feel' for nice, smooth movement. Maybe you'll get a clunk :-)

However when you remove the steering arm/lower strut knuckle/tie-rod arm (part 1 in http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HJ91&mospid=47399&btnr=32_0334&hg=32&fg=25) you may have broken a ball joint in one of the tie-rod arms. Never seen it, but perhaps they can be damaged if you bashed the old ones to remove them and didn't replace them too. They are a high wear item, so its best in to replace both tie rod assemblies as well as the arms.

BTW, the easiest (and right way), as you may well know is to use a joint puller to pressure the joint and then tap the joint to release the pin from the knuckle. Doing it this way you can't really damage a ball joint.

Hopefully this might help- but let us know.

[twastheglow]

Thank you for the reply.

If the noise was coming from one side, I would agree that it could possibly be a faulty part. But the likelihood of receiving two is ridiculously low. Low enough to assume that isn't the issue.

I did try jacking it up and using a pry bar to locate any loose parts. Nothing was loose. Everything was tight as it should be.

I did not remove part 1 in that diagram to install these arms. I literally did everything I outlined in the initial post. Nothing was removed with the exception of the thrust arms themselves; and the only other part that was "moved" was the sway bar bracket. As a side note, both tie rods and drag link (center link) were replaced a few weeks ago.

[BigKriss]

sounds like the balljoints for the control arms? or swaybar link?

[twastheglow]

sounds like the balljoints for the control arms? or swaybar link?

Right, but how and why? They're brand new.

I mentioned that I already tried disconnecting the sway bar end links and it still clunks.

[BigKriss]

i dont know mate.

your symptoms sound like bad balljoints

[twastheglow]

i dont know mate.

your symptoms sound like bad balljoints

Yeah, I definitely agree with you. I'm just not sure what to do about it.

I'm thinking I may uninstall the ball joint end of both arms and try reinstalling them I guess. I don't know what else to do. Although at the same time I don't know what that will achieve either. Is there a trick to installing them that I'm not aware of? I got the threaded post through enough to get a nut on it and tightened it up. Does it matter if the car is jacked up or down on it's wheels?

[BigKriss]

I dont think it matters if its jacked up or not. are you using hand tools or air tools?

[genphreak]

Don't trust the perfectness of your 'noise analysis' (sorry, no easy way to say it). I have been amazed how noises around cars (certainly these ones) can travel from one side or end to another and seem to be clearly something- but end up totally different. If the noise is emanating from underneath, this is to be expected.

Since you only changed the arm/bj/bush, it's the bj or the bush 1,2,3 or 4). Of course it should only be 1 part, the chances of more than 1 faulty part are incredibly low.

You can check the ball-joints with a pry bar or by wiggling the front wheels back and forth/in and out (hard) if you jack it up unsupported by the wheels.

With the bushes (in the middle of the car, not on one side so much), many people complain that OEM (non-OE) ones break on installation. it is very easy to do even if you are being careful. Many suspect these kind of complaints are due to incorrect application of the installation procedure.

I install the arms with the upper arm bush bolts loose, drop the car and tighten after bouncing the car a little. It is even more important to get this right if the car is lowered.

[twastheglow]

I dont think it matters if its jacked up or not. are you using hand tools or air tools?


Hand tools.


Don't trust the perfectness of your 'noise analysis' (sorry, no easy way to say it). I have been amazed how noises around cars (certainly these ones) can travel from one side or end to another and seem to be clearly something- but end up totally different. If the noise is emanating from underneath, this is to be expected.

Since you only changed the arm/bj/bush, it's the bj or the bush 1,2,3 or 4). Of course it should only be 1 part, the chances of more than 1 faulty part are incredibly low.

You can check the ball-joints with a pry bar or by wiggling the front wheels back and forth/in and out (hard) if you jack it up unsupported by the wheels.

With the bushes (in the middle of the car, not on one side so much), many people complain that OEM (non-OE) ones break on installation. it is very easy to do even if you are being careful. Many suspect these kind of complaints are due to incorrect application of the installation procedure.

I install the arms with the upper arm bush bolts loose, drop the car and tighten after bouncing the car a little. It is even more important to get this right if the car is lowered.

I understand what you're saying about noise emanating to other parts of the car. That could very well be the case. Unfortunately it's incredibly difficult to figure out what side the noise is coming from.

I did check the ball joints using a pry bar to no avail.

I'm not sure how to tell if I damaged the bushings on install. When I took the last set out, I could not discern ANY failure in them at all through appearance. But with the new ones installed (never mind the clunk) the shimmy was gone...meaning the bushings in this last set were bad. I would have had NO idea just by looking at them.

I did install the bushings loosely then lowered the car down to it's wheels to tighten them. And yes, the car IS lowered.

With that being said, based on everything I've read, I'm still inclined to think the noise is the result of one (or both) of the ball joints.

[Rustam]

I have read everything here.

Shimmy can occur even if one of the ball joints is loose, not necessarily a worn bushing. Also, a shimmy may be a joint problem - say of a bushing and a balljoint and not necessarily on same component. The fact that the shimmy has gone but now you get a clunk may be an indication that you have eliminated one contributing component to the original problem, which only left a clunk. What is a clunk and what is a shimmy? Both are due to space available where it should not be. The clunk sooner or later becomes a shimmy, because the space has gradually became bigger and now allows a vibration at specific frequency. If the space is not big enough, this vibration would not occur - one only gets a clunk. The space must be of specific size, given the stress, and the materials used, for vibration to occur. So now that you have replaced the thrust arms, it is possible that the original problem has came down to a lesser level of just a clunk, from a shimmy. It stands to reason that sooner or later it will become a shimmy, because the original culprit has not been eliminated.

So what is this possibly and likely about? The thrust arms are brand new, you also stated that the tie rods have been replaced a week ago. What is the condition of the balljoints on part number 2 here : http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD23&mospid=47408&btnr=31_0250&hg=31&fg=05

Also, please note about jacking prior to torquing the bushings (as is done in any case of replacing suspension arms). Once the wheels are off, they take down the suspension extending the shock absorbers. When car is lowered the absorbers take time to bring the car to the level, since the oil in them has to move. If you put the car on ramps to preload immediately, the preloading is effectively meaningless because it does not quiet bring the car to proper level because of extended absorbers. I take the car for a short ride prior to torquing the bolts, to ensure that the shock absorbers have worked and settled at proper height. Then take the car on ramp, preload and torque.

The extension of the absorbers resisting immediate settling to proper level can be observed after a wheel is changed - the car sits higher after the wheel has been replaced.

[twastheglow]

I have read everything here.

Shimmy can occur even if one of the ball joints is loose, not necessarily a worn bushing. Also, a shimmy may be a joint problem - say of a bushing and a balljoint and not necessarily on same component. The fact that the shimmy has gone but now you get a clunk may be an indication that you have eliminated one contributing component to the original problem, which only left a clunk. What is a clunk and what is a shimmy? Both are due to space available where it should not be. The clunk sooner or later becomes a shimmy, because the space has gradually became bigger and now allows a vibration at specific frequency. If the space is not big enough, this vibration would not occur - one only gets a clunk. The space must be of specific size, given the stress, and the materials used, for vibration to occur. So now that you have replaced the thrust arms, it is possible that the original problem has came down to a lesser level of just a clunk, from a shimmy. It stands to reason that sooner or later it will become a shimmy, because the original culprit has not been eliminated.

So what is this possibly and likely about? The thrust arms are brand new, you also stated that the tie rods have been replaced a week ago. What is the condition of the balljoints on part number 2 here : http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=HD23&mospid=47408&btnr=31_0250&hg=31&fg=05

Also, please note about jacking prior to torquing the bushings (as is done in any case of replacing suspension arms). Once the wheels are off, they take down the suspension extending the shock absorbers. When car is lowered the absorbers take time to bring the car to the level, since the oil in them has to move. If you put the car on ramps to preload immediately, the preloading is effectively meaningless because it does not quiet bring the car to proper level because of extended absorbers. I take the car for a short ride prior to torquing the bolts, to ensure that the shock absorbers have worked and settled at proper height. Then take the car on ramp, preload and torque.

The extension of the absorbers resisting immediate settling to proper level can be observed after a wheel is changed - the car sits higher after the wheel has been replaced.

Thanks for the reply. I'm at a point where I have to systematically eliminate one thing at a time.

Firstly, I found that the spring clip on the outside of the passenger side caliper is mysteriously missing. I have a buddy coming over tonight with his so we can eliminate the possibility of the clunk occurring due to brake pad shifts. I have a new clip that will be here Saturday anyway since that obviously needs to be replaced regardless.

Secondly I ordered 740/750 thrust arm bushings to press into the new arms if the spring does nothing to solve the problem. They will be here Monday. If the spring does nothing (I'm certainly not hopeful, but obviously worth the try since it's a free trial), I will remove the arms and have a buddy press in the new bushings. As stated, the ball joints on the new arms have been inspected and reinstalled to no avail. So if new bushings don't do it...

I'll be forced into purchasing new Lemforder lower arms. The end links have already been eliminated previously. That only leaves me with the lower arms. I DID do my best to inspect the lower arm's ball joint and bushing and they both seem to be in good order. No slop or movement at all.

Unfortunately, I do not have a way to "settle" the suspension as you stated. My car is too low to drive up onto ramps so I'm forced to jack the car up then set it back down on the ramps.

[Rustam]

Thank you for the response Mike. Please don't forget to let us know of the further developments.

[twastheglow]

Thank you for the response Mike. Please don't forget to let us know of the further developments.

Thank you guys for the advice and words of wisdom. I will update this anytime something gets eliminated as the culprit. I have my fingers and toes crossed that I have a torn bushing in one of the new arms and that the new bushings (as well as taking much better care to properly install and torque) will ultimately eliminate the new clunking.

[Rustam]

Unfortunately, I do not have a way to "settle" the suspension as you stated. My car is too low to drive up onto ramps so I'm forced to jack the car up then set it back down on the ramps.

Perhaps it makes sense to take the bumper cover off to drive onto the ramps, given torquing bushings is done only once for a long time, and that most importantly, the bushings' life span is at stake.

[genphreak]

When I'm lazy, I use thick wooden planks to stage the approach angle as the car moves onto the ramp.

As Rustam says, removing the bumpers is the best way, as ramps and planks can move/slide. Any mistake can wreck your bumper cover... and your day, if not worse.

If not Lemfoerder arms, the bushes will be shite anyway. Meyle may be ok too these days, I don't know.

So you should probably take the opportunity to install e32 750 or e34 M5 bushes, they are the best of all the stock ones and worth buying at the your friendly stealer. Many use the Powerflex aftermarket ones, they are the best of all aftermarket ones as they are two piece and you can't install them incorrectly. But factory rubber ones are much better at insulating road noise and retaining factory feel. BMW went to a lot of trouble with their designs, instead of just using poly bushes- for many reasons. Even their stock bushes are high quality and last well. Most of us want M spec components no matter what we own, so pay extra for those types when we have to go in and change something.

[632 Regal]

Replaced thrust arms, sounds like it's control arm time. The brake clip is a real possibility but on both sides? Also 750 bushings are same as the stock ones, go with M5 bushings that don't have the plastic handicap reinforcement or your wasting time/money.

Can you feel the clunk in either the steering wheel or brake peddle? My replacement 530 has the exact same clunk and looks like the control arms have never been replaced. The rubber boots are both cracked all the way around and I can't experience any clunk or play with a prybar but can feel it through the floorboards when tapping the brakes.

[Bill R.]

Since you used new lemforders with ball joints i would suspect that the thrust arm bolts at the bushing end aren't tight enough and would look carefully at the new bushings where the bolts go through. Look for shiny metal like its been sliding back and forth. Also doublecheck the bolts that hold the crossmember to the body that the thrust arm bushing is bolted to.
I've never had a new lemforder thrust arm with bad ball joints right out of the bag.

[twastheglow]

The brake clip did not help but has certainly been replaced already nonetheless. Pulled the arms to have 740 bushings pressed in. I know you guys recommend the M5 bushings (at least I see that now) but I had already ordered the 740's before reading that. The bushings will be here tomorrow and a friend is taking them to work to press them in during the week. We're going to try reinstalling them this coming Saturday and see what the outcome is. I'm not terribly hopeful to be honest.

[632 Regal]

Did you inspect where Bill R recommended? (post above your last)

[twastheglow]

Did you inspect where Bill R recommended? (post above your last)

I unfortunately didn't have a chance to inspect the arms at the bushing end before I handed them over. I mean I inspected the bushings themselves, but not the metal sleeve.

The bolts that hold the cross member are damn tight. Probably over tight to be honest. hahaha I was afraid that those weren't tight enough for that exact reason and tightened the hell out of them. I have since ground down a box wrench to fit into where the bushing nut is, so I won't have to loosen the cross member/sway bar bracket bolts again upon reassembly.

[ahlem]

Have someone drive the car at about 3 mph and walk,jog along next to it and observe and listen to see if you can identify the source.
What type of caliper pins and bushings do you have? I'd check to be sure the pads can't shift in the calipers. I had a similar situation in the back and it turned out to be broken guide pins as in sheared off. The caliper was being held in by the wheel and clunking.

[twastheglow]

Have someone drive the car at about 3 mph and walk,jog along next to it and observe and listen to see if you can identify the source.
What type of caliper pins and bushings do you have? I'd check to be sure the pads can't shift in the calipers. I had a similar situation in the back and it turned out to be broken guide pins as in sheared off. The caliper was being held in by the wheel and clunking.

I've actually done that with 2 different people. Both people thought it was coming from both sides. We can't recreate the noise by bouncing the front of the car. I can obviously only assume it's because it needs that forward force from braking, since that's the only time it does it.

I DID pull the driver's side caliper/rotor and took it all apart then back together. Everything was in good working order and wearing correctly. It was the passenger side that was missing the caliper clip. That was replaced and had no impact on the clunk at all. I have obviously had both front wheels off the car a number of times and the caliper on both sides are nice and tight...along with the caliper bracket.

[632 Regal]

I have since ground down a box wrench to fit into where the bushing nut is, so I won't have to loosen the cross member/sway bar bracket bolts again upon reassembly.

I had to do the same on the 94, the 95 looks to have more room. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that couldn't access that nut lol.

[twastheglow]

I had to do the same on the 94, the 95 looks to have more room. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that couldn't access that nut lol.

The V8 E34's all have the same problem accessing the thrust arm bushing nut. :(

[twastheglow]

:UPDATE:

Replaced the thrust arms with 740 bushings. Installed and torqued everything to spec. Did not fix the problem. Replaced the upper strut mounts. No luck. Did not fix the problem. The mounts however had seen better days, so replacing them wasn't the worst idea. But I think I could have done without doing that at the moment.

We did go through every nut and bolt and torqued everything to spec according to the Bentley manual. Although completely stumped, we did manage to take this video. Granted I know the video isn't of the best quality, but nonetheless... Thoughts?

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/twastheglow/mystery%20car%20noise/th_IMG_2144_zps58161d66.mp4 (http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/twastheglow/mystery%20car%20noise/IMG_2144_zps58161d66.mp4)

[BigKriss]

transmission or engine mounts perhaps?

[Rustam]

lower control arms replaced?

[632 Regal]

Looks like I can see movement on the left arm... not sure what I am looking at though. Sounds like a higher pitch noise rather then a heavy clunk like balljoints. I'm still betting on control arms though. What does the clunk sound like on the inside?

Edit: Yes there is definite movement on the lower looking arm on the left, could just be the gimp bushings and a non issue but worth looking into. Can see the movement in the second half of the video.

[genphreak]

Sounds dangerous to me, you are right to be worried.

Normally that would be the sway bar links, but you need to check also:

- upper mounts-
- and the tightness of the bolts in the lower steering plate/arm.
- Idler arm too perhaps

I know you've already looked at all of them so maybe someone really experienced with suspensions can help you test(?)

Last hope- be sure to check the

- steering box mounting bolts

They are known to have loosened in some cases.

[twastheglow]

::UPDATE::

::FIXED::

It's been a long 3 weeks of working on this car, but I finally figured it out.


http://realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/m/n/5.png
The #13 bolt was the culprit. Initially we had loosened #14 (x2 on each side) a fair amount and #13 a very nominal amount in order to give enough slack in the bracket to slide a box wrench in to hold the bushing nut. After the bushing side was torqued down, I went ahead and tightened those 3 bolts on each side. I tightened them down using a breaker bar until it was very tight. I've searched the Bentley (and the E32 Bentley) and there isn't a torque spec for that bolt anywhere. When I took the initial test drive and heard the clunk I assumed it was either the bushing not being tight enough or #13 not being tight enough. When I got back under the car, I really cranked on #13 with that breaker bar. Then at another point a couple days later...after having no success with eliminating the clunk, I got back under there and cranked on it again; this time with a breaker bar with a pipe on the end. It was at that point I finally gave up on that bolt because of how much force I had put on it and it had made no difference. Fast forward to today. After everything that we've done, posted, read, people's responses, I went back out with the intention of pulling the bushing bolt to make sure the mounting holes hadn't elongated somehow. While doing that...and getting my now ground down box wrench (so I didn't have to loosen up #13 & #14 again) I noticed there was vertical play on the cross member. I could "bounce" it up and down slightly and get that same clunking noise. So this time I took that same breaker bar and pipe and CRANKED on it. I did until I honestly thought my head was going to explode. The breaker bar itself was flexing. After getting a couple turns on each #13 (both sides), I took it out for a drive and that eliminated the clunking. I would have NEVER thought to keep turning that bolt to the point I was going to have an aneurism or have the bolt shear right off, but apparently that's what I had to do. Now again, I never removed the bolt, only loosened it enough to show a few threads AT MOST. So what happened to it from there to necessitate this kind of force is beyond me. It's just too bad we somehow never found that we could ever so slightly move the cross member vertically. I guess I never checked that due to how "tight" I had made that bolt over time.

[632 Regal]

A+ on the fix! Now you need to pop it back up there and remove them bolts and see what is going on. Unless you are Olive Oil from Popeye it shouldn't take that much torque. That being loose though would/should explain the movement I saw from your video? Corrosion or some obscure issue I would think.

Now I have to pop mine up in the air and see if my issue is a stupid bolt. I hope so but the ball joint boots are all wasted, and I get a shimmy on the DR side due to steering juice loss.

Again congrats in the fix and following back up here, appreciated.


::UPDATE::

::FIXED::

It's been a long 3 weeks of working on this car, but I finally figured it out.


http://realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/m/n/5.png
The #13 bolt was the culprit. Initially we had loosened #14 (x2 on each side) a fair amount and #13 a very nominal amount in order to give enough slack in the bracket to slide a box wrench in to hold the bushing nut. After the bushing side was torqued down, I went ahead and tightened those 3 bolts on each side. I tightened them down using a breaker bar until it was very tight. I've searched the Bentley (and the E32 Bentley) and there isn't a torque spec for that bolt anywhere. When I took the initial test drive and heard the clunk I assumed it was either the bushing not being tight enough or #13 not being tight enough. When I got back under the car, I really cranked on #13 with that breaker bar. Then at another point a couple days later...after having no success with eliminating the clunk, I got back under there and cranked on it again; this time with a breaker bar with a pipe on the end. It was at that point I finally gave up on that bolt because of how much force I had put on it and it had made no difference. Fast forward to today. After everything that we've done, posted, read, people's responses, I went back out with the intention of pulling the bushing bolt to make sure the mounting holes hadn't elongated somehow. While doing that...and getting my now ground down box wrench (so I didn't have to loosen up #13 & #14 again) I noticed there was vertical play on the cross member. I could "bounce" it up and down slightly and get that same clunking noise. So this time I took that same breaker bar and pipe and CRANKED on it. I did until I honestly thought my head was going to explode. The breaker bar itself was flexing. After getting a couple turns on each #13 (both sides), I took it out for a drive and that eliminated the clunking. I would have NEVER thought to keep turning that bolt to the point I was going to have an aneurism or have the bolt shear right off, but apparently that's what I had to do. Now again, I never removed the bolt, only loosened it enough to show a few threads AT MOST. So what happened to it from there to necessitate this kind of force is beyond me. It's just too bad we somehow never found that we could ever so slightly move the cross member vertically. I guess I never checked that due to how "tight" I had made that bolt over time.

[mattyb]

yes congrats on the fix and pics. reminds me of the vigour and resourcefulness of days gone by, btw was just going through the archives searching seat covers and came across some threads that had me laughing so hard, nearly in tears when the activity level was super high the comradery was same and the humour was brilliant. im sure well be there again soon! I love this place

[Bill R.]

I thought i told you to look at that 2 weeks ago?

[twastheglow]

I thought i told you to look at that 2 weeks ago?

You did. And I did. Several times actually.

[Rustam]

: I've searched the Bentley (and the E32 Bentley) and there isn't a torque spec for that bolt anywhere.

Bentley repair manual for e34 provides a table of maximal torque for bolts depending on their size (for example m10 )and class (for example 8.8 or 10.9). The table is in the beginning of the book where general procedures are mentioned. Please consult and torque properly. Too much torque is not good, just like too little. You risk breaking the bolts under stress shock.

I tighten to 80-90% of maximum.

[632 Regal]

You did. And I did. Several times actually.

Look at them means to check them... you know that right?

JK

[twastheglow]

Look at them means to check them... you know that right?

JK

Oh, so I shouldn't have taken it literally? I even gave them dirty looks. rotfl

Yeah, I get it...I missed the problem that I was told to check. I did "check" them. Obviously not well enough. Lesson learned. doh It wasn't as obvious as it might seem. As I mentioned, I checked those bolts and they were hella tight. I had no reason to think that the cross member itself wouldn't be.

[632 Regal]

No man, just kidding, I have a new ride with the same symptoms and will throw it in the air today. Hoping this is the cause since it is getting progressively worse as time goes on. I know I need new arms but this might be the issue, I am afraid of hitting the brakes hard now.

[twastheglow]

No man, just kidding, I have a new ride with the same symptoms and will throw it in the air today. Hoping this is the cause since it is getting progressively worse as time goes on. I know I need new arms but this might be the issue, I am afraid of hitting the brakes hard now.

Well good luck. I really hope that's your issue; or at least something easily fixed. Report back with your findings...

[genphreak]

Bentley repair manual for e34 provides a table of maximal torque for bolts depending on their size (for example m10 )and class (for example 8.8 or 10.9). The table is in the beginning of the book where general procedures are mentioned. Please consult and torque properly. Too much torque is not good, just like too little. You risk breaking the bolts under stress shock.

I tighten to 80-90% of maximum.

yup... and you risk
- killing people
- or worse, giving DIYers a bad name...

"I would have NEVER thought to keep turning that bolt to the point I was going to have an aneurism or have the bolt shear right off, but apparently that's what I had to do" Some people torque every nut and bolt on their car. Its a good policy until you can sense it by hand which takes years of experience and failures you just shouldn't want to have.

Be sure to buy both 1/4" and 1/2" torque metric torque wrenches, they are nothing short of essential for working on a car and avoiding breakages, let alone leaks and parts falling off!

[Rustam]

yup... and you risk
- killing people
- or worse, giving DIYers a bad name...

"I would have NEVER thought to keep turning that bolt to the point I was going to have an aneurism or have the bolt shear right off, but apparently that's what I had to do" Some people torque every nut and bolt on their car. Its a good policy until you can sense it by hand which takes years of experience and failures you just shouldn't want to have.

Be sure to buy both 1/4" and 1/2" torque metric torque wrenches, they are nothing short of essential for working on a car and avoiding breakages, let alone leaks and parts falling off!

I think you mean to direct the post his way, not my way. Also 80-90% of maximum comes from considerations of material stress-strain analysis. That is just about point A on the graph found here: http://www.keytometals.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=kts&NM=280

[632 Regal]

I just tighten the bitches up till they seem right, you can't do that all the time if you haven't done them bolts before. 90% of my wrenching is manual torquing unless it is related to pressure points that should be adhered to such as steering components or head specs. Based on guessing the feel from 35 years experience you just can't do that without a spec on the torque.

[genphreak]

I think you mean to direct the post his way, not my way. Also 80-90% of maximum comes from considerations of material stress-strain analysis. That is just about point A on the graph found here: http://www.keytometals.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=kts&NM=280 I certainly did, sorry mate.

Experience teaches many things about joints. Things I learned many years ago that stand out:

- how to 'pop' tapered joints without breaking pullers
- a heatgun can be your best friend
- how to prevent joints seizing in future
- sure what tightness is appropriate (very roughly)
- always use the right tool, especially if its tight. Pure hex sockets rather than multi-points, nice big extension handles, etc.
- 3/4" drive socket set for using on suspension components, if you use 1/2" you just risk breaking it, your knuckles and your patience
- torquing nuts not only to get it right, but to verify the joint properly set and/or as a process to ensure all the bolts are tight.
...

[632 Regal]

Perhaps it makes sense to take the bumper cover off to drive onto the ramps, given torquing bushings is done only once for a long time, and that most importantly, the bushings' life span is at stake.

2x10 leading to the ramps and can drive on without bumper issues. 90% are lowered. even a couple 2 foot 2x4s will work on each side.

[632 Regal]

Well good luck. I really hope that's your issue; or at least something easily fixed. Report back with your findings...

Nothing loose, cracked loose and torqued to spec... need new arms all the way around.