New 328, trans issues

[632 Regal]

Picked up a 96 328 @ 211K today.

Trans takes 5 seconds to go into drive or reverse, not enough pressure to upshift from 1st to second. Hope the trans hasn't smoked the clutches but possible. Guy drove it in manual mode all the time and it just stopped upshifting from 1st.

Don't even know the trans yet just looking for links. Car s not here so I don't have manufacture date yet. Should be here soon. Could be a good deal but for scrap price I had to latch on.

[shogun]

automatic transmission EH 24001422654 A4S 270R - RX used up to ... — '97, January
BMW lists it as a THM-R1(A4S-270R) which is a GM 4L30e as far as I know.
If it would be a ZF tranny, I would remove the pan, clean the valve body, make a trans flushing, install new balls in the tranny valve body. But I have no experience with the GM tranny.

Diagnosis and troubleshooting GM 4L30E http://de.scribd.com/doc/74302914/Manual-at-4l30e
4L30E transmission servicing tips
Executive summary –

Symptoms:

1.A “lumpy” 1-2 up shift
2.A slow 2-3 upshift
3.The one that bugged me the most – From time to time the trans or torque converter would appear to slip. This occurred when driving under light throttle, engine under 2000rpm and cruising along. If you then accelerate lightly, the revs would rise gradually to about 2400 rpm, but not much in the way of acceleration would be happening. Then at around 2400rpm the trans would kickdown and it would accelerate.
4.Points 2 and 3 never occurred in Power mode.
Cause:

Fluid level wrong (but not as simple as you might think) - The Isuzu service manual suggests that the fluid should be checked between 32 and 57 degC. The same transmission is in some BMWs. BMW say fluid should be between 30 deg and 50 degC. BMW also suggests that the fluid level should always be checked at around 30 deg C and the trans fluid temp should be measured by the OBD2 port. In this way you get the maximum load of fluid in the trans without being overfilled. If you measure it at 50 deg C, then there won’t be enough fluid.

Resolution:

To be done first thing in the morning, before first start and before driving the car anywhere. The transmission fluid must be relatively cool when you start.

Get the bashplate off, set up drain pan, fluid and fluid pump, spanners all ready to go. Start the car, idle for 3-5 mins moving through the gears with aircon on for a faster idle, get the overfill screw off, pump in ATF until fluid started coming out again, pump in another 50-100ml, let the fluid running out reduce to a thin stream and then close up again.

The unabridged version -

Over the last four months, my Monterey has been having some intermittent issues that, for a while, I just couldn’t understand why they were occurring. Specifically there were the four symptoms mentioned above

This all started after a transmission service I did in June. There was absolutely no problem beforehand. At the time, my intial thought was that it was fluid level incorrect. However I checked that 2 or 3 times and it always looked good. For the record, I used a multimeter with a temperature probe to check that the fluid in the pan was between 35 and 40 deg C to get the right level. (You’ll see later on why this is wrong).

I then thought that it was the fluid that was used. At the time I used Caltex Texamatic 1888 which is a Dexron III fluid. Prior to this I had always used Castrol or Valvoline DXIII fluids without problem, so I dumped the Caltex stuff and put in Valvoline DXIII. After this the problems went away to a large extent, but would still pop up from time to time.

Naturally, I wasn’t happy with this as I just couldn’t accept that a perfectly good transmission was playing up after a new filter and new fluid was installed, with apparently correct fluid levels and so on.

So I started researching a bit on the net, in Isuzu, BMW and Cadillac forums (the 4L30E is used in a few different vehicles) and started to find some common problems. Lots of posts with issue number 3 above, with the cars usually around 150000-160000kms, with nearly all of them resulting in a transmission rebuild …groan … not what I wanted to be reading.

I came across one article on a BMW thread talking about fluid levels in the dipstickless transmissions. Not just the 4L30E, but also on a 5 speed Hydramatic and two ZF transmissions as well (the 4L30E is not alone in this no-dipstick world). In it there was reference to a US based European transmission specialist (www.europeantransmissions.com) who published the BMW process to check the fluid level. The instruction was slightly different to the Isuzu process, but there was a key point that would prove to be the silver bullet in my case.

The Isuzu service manual suggests that the fluid should be checked between 32 and 57 degC, BMW say between 30 deg and 50 degC. They say that the fluid level must always be checked at the cool end of normal, ie fluid around 30 degC and it should be measured by the OBD2 port (for reasons that will become apparent later). In this way you get the maximum load of fluid in the trans without being overfilled. If you measure it at 50 deg C, then there won’t be enough fluid.

So about two weeks ago I tried getting the fluid level right using the BMW instructions, but this time it was first thing in the morning before the car was driven. I don't have the ability to read the trans fluid temp via the OBD2 at the moment, so I stuck with the multimeter and probe but opted to target around 20degC at the pan. Get the bashplate off, set up drain pan, fluid and fluid pump, spanners and multimeter all ready to go. Start the car, idle for 3-5 mins moving through the gears with aircon on for a faster idle, get the overfill screw off, measure the fluid temp in the pan – 23degC – pump in what appeared to be about 100ml before fluid started coming out again, pump in another 100ml, let the fluid running out reduce to a thin stream and then close up again. Now go for a drive.

Immediately you can tell the shifts were more positive. Also the slip that I could sometimes anticipate didn’t occur. So I thought let it run like this for a couple of weeks just to make sure that this is the fix.

After the two weeks there was no repeat issues – So I tempted fate and thought, let’s do another service. My reasoning was that I wanted to know if there was any clutch material or metal fragments in the pan after the slipping that had been occuring. So on Saturday afternoon, I did everything again. This time I was using Penrite Dexron VI fluid ($23 for 4 litres at Repco St Peters - I’m sure that price was an error as it's $55 elsewhere – so I bought 8 litres). Fortunately both pans and the servo cover had no trace of fragments so it looks like very little in mechanical problems from these issues. Set the fluid level again, but knowing that the car had been driven earlier in the day I checked fluid level again the following morning. Sure enough, it took another 200ml.
All good now, so went wrong the first time? Well here’s my theory on what happened and what needs to be done in future.

1.This is just a guess, but I think the fluid in the main pan is what is being returned from the transmission cooler. As the ecu is reading the fluid temp from the adapter case, the fluid temp there is higher than that in the pan. Hence reading the fluid temp in the pan would be invalid.
2.At the first service I cycled through 8 litres of the Caltex fluid. I did this by dumping the old fluid from the pan, filling it up with the new, idle the car for 15-20 mins, and repeat until I finished the two containers of new fluid. By doing this, the temp of the trans fluid in the transmission (not the pan) must have gone well over 57deg, leading to seriously incorrect fluid levels.
3.The next morning I checked the level again, but by letting the pan fluid get to around 40 deg, the fluid within the adapter case might have again exceeded 57 deg. So even though more fluid went in, it was probably at the minimum level and still not enough.
4.It would appear that as the transmission ages, it becomes more dependant on having a full load of fluid to operate correctly. It must be at the maximum level without overfilling. So getting it loaded while the trans is relatively cool, not cold, is important. If you have a scangauge or other obd2 scanner that shows trans fluid temp, use it and target getting the fluid level set at 30 deg C. If you don’t have an obd2 scanner, idle for 5 mins or so and set the level. There is probably about a 3-5min window after this to get the level right, before the temp gets to a point where setting the fluid level would be incorrect.
5.Always run the a/c to get a fast idle happening when you are checking the level, to help ensure all fluid passages are full.
6.When setting the fluid level, get it to a point where a thin stream is flowing freely from the overfill hole and close it at this point. If there is no fluid coming out or it’s just small dribbles around the edges of the hole, add a bit more fluid. On the other hand if it’s gushing out, there’s too much fluid in there.
Some other points –

•Avoid cork pan gaskets. They never sealed properly when I used them. The best pan gasket I found is made of duraprene (recycled neoprene) and it’s included in the transmission service kits supplied by ATP. No hint of fluid getting passed these, unlike cork gaskets.
•Speaking of the ATP transmission kit – $55 and it includes both main and adapter case pan gaskets in duraprene material as well as paper servo cover gasket and a filter. I got mine at Auto One at Carlton, however make sure that if they are getting it in for you that they get the kit for the 4L30E (ATP part number FK-1155), and not the one for the Aisin transmission in the 4JX1. Their catalog has the wrong kit listed against the 3.5V6 6VE1. I wouldn’t buy the Repco transmission kit again – approx $70 and you only a cork gasket for the main pan, the paper servo cover gasket, and the filter. They do not supply a gasket for the adapter case pan.
•It’s very easy to strip the threads where the transmission pan bolts screw into the transmission. So have a stripped thread repair kit, like the Permatex one, handy just in case. Also be careful not to overtighten the pan screws or you might distort the pan leading to leaks.
•Be picky with your choice of fluid and never go anywhere near a transmission fluid that says it can be used in all vehicles (eg Nulon Multi Vehicle Trans fluid, etc). Use only a fluid that is Dexron III, IIIH or VI standard. Be aware though that Dexron III and IIIH are obsolete standards and there is no licensing by GM on these fluids. Manufacturers that sell these fluids are no longer obliged to stick to a particular specification however having said that, I doubt that the likes of Penrite, Castrol, Valvoline and other big names would move away from the relevant specification. Dexron VI is the only current GM standard that is licensed, but you need to hunt a bit for it and it can be pricey at around $55 for 4 litres (unless you find it accidentally discounted). As far as I can tell there are only 2 licensed manufacturers in Australia, which are Penrite and Mainline. Castrol claims Transmax Z is Dexron VI compliant but there’s no indication on the packaging of a license number which is a requirement. It’s also quite expensive at over $70 for 4 litres.
•Finally, always have some 14mm aluminium or copper sump washers on hand. We’re fortunate in that the engine and trans both use 14mm sump washers, so if you do your own maintenance then it’s always handy to have a small stock of them.

Here's a couple of reference links that can be useful ...

http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Bulletin/DTC.BMW/4L30E.pdf

http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Bulletin/DTC.BMW/BMWtransService.pdf

from here http://forum.australia4wd.com/index.php?/topic/18115-4l30e-transmission-servicing-tips/

[632 Regal]

Okay thanks read all that except the manual.

This is the A4S-270R/4L30E

The fluid was very low, added 2 quarts and it is pretty close to where it should be.

Now it immediately shifts into gear but no upshift from 1st.

Getting trans error on the dash, I don't have a code reader and will try to contact the seller and get the codes that he had read.
Tried disconnecting the battery with no change.

[632 Regal]

Edit: I need a reader that also does the transmission codes, this is important at this time due to trans issues, lol.

Any of these code readers work on the 96 328?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto-Diagnostic-Scan-Tool-Fault-Code-Reader-Can-OBDII-Autel-MS300-MS309-Scanner-/251577695691?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item3a9332fdcb

Just started looking into this.

[shogun]

Dream on. For $10.94 I would also buy that tool if it would work, but it will not work on your car = 1996 328:

Vehicle Coverage:

All US Vehicles from 1996 - Current Year (OBD-2)
All European Vehicles 2001 - Current Year Petrol (OBD-2)
All European Vehicles 2004 - Current Year Diesel (OBD-2)
All new CAN protocol cars.

And I assume it will also not read any trans faults.

Maybe Gert has something for you http://www.interfaces4beemers.net/

Might be cheaper to find a specialized shop for transmissions which has a good tool and pay for the scanning.

[whiskychaser]

Don't they have filter screens on the shift solenoids in the A4S310R? If they are clogged, it isn't going to shift. Probably doesn't explain the trans error on the dash though.

Dealers here charge half an hour's labour for a diagnostic check. That is around USD 100! If it is the same over there, I imagine you can get a good ADS/OBD interface for that sort of money

[shogun]

Good point, whisky

so in any case, with or without code reader the pan has to come off and all has to be cleaned in the valve body.

BTW, probably of interest for you as tranny specialist, we just cut of a FEBI and FILTRAN tranny filter to compare , pics here http://e32b12.blogspot.jp/

[whiskychaser]

BTW, probably of interest for you as tranny specialist, we just cut of a FEBI and FILTRAN tranny filter to compare , pics here http://e32b12.blogspot.jp/
They look very similar to me but I bet the price isn't. Febi used to be about £25 and dealer was around £30 for the 5HP18. So you would have to chose dealer every time. Febi is still the same but dealer is now £100 for the 5HP19 filter. I have a 330i and my wife has a 320i with the same box. Add the price of dealer ATF (£22/litre) and it comes to near £600 for the two cars. I will be going for the dealer filter but using Pentosin ATF1 - they make it for BMW anyway and the spec is the same :-) Nice to read BMW have said they are still going to make manual cars though

[632 Regal]

Don't they have filter screens on the shift solenoids in the A4S310R? If they are clogged, it isn't going to shift. Probably doesn't explain the trans error on the dash though.

Dealers here charge half an hour's labour for a diagnostic check. That is around USD 100! If it is the same over there, I imagine you can get a good ADS/OBD interface for that sort of money

Filter screens could do it, I will look into procedures. Right now it runs in 1st and reverse so I can move it around and also get the codes. Don't want to pull the pan and rebuild everything if the clutches are smoked. Swapping the trans wouldn't be bad if I had somewhere with at least a roof on it to work.

There is nowhere close to get codes read and to have it towed into town is out of the question. I'll have to sell more stuff and buy a real scanner hopefully before it gets cold.

[whiskychaser]

Some thoughts:

IIRC, the 328 gives you a gear symbol instead of 'transprog' in check control? So if it is showing the symbol, shouldn't it be giving you 3rd and reverse - not 1st and reverse? We know they normally ditch power to all the solenoids when they do that so maybe check with a meter? Doesn't solve anything but at least you would know the TCM is working properly

Not sure about the A4S310R, but the manual shift valve is known to break on ZFs. Unlike the ZF, the mode switch is connected to the end of the selector shaft on the GM box and it tells the TCM which gear is selected. Maybe the PO has done some damage to one of them using it like a manual?

[632 Regal]

Some thoughts:

IIRC, the 328 gives you a gear symbol instead of 'transprog' in check control? So if it is showing the symbol, shouldn't it be giving you 3rd and reverse - not 1st and reverse? We know they normally ditch power to all the solenoids when they do that so maybe check with a meter? Doesn't solve anything but at least you would know the TCM is working properly

Not sure about the A4S310R, but the manual shift valve is known to break on ZFs. Unlike the ZF, the mode switch is connected to the end of the selector shaft on the GM box and it tells the TCM which gear is selected. Maybe the PO has done some damage to one of them using it like a manual?

Points taken, I also read of some 'range switch' which can cause the same issue of only 1st and reverse. What was in the trans pan when I stuck a wite in there to see how low it was came out looking like black mud. If the clutches are not burned I would bet on clogged screens.

Sometimes it will stay as a floating first and kick in at the rpm needed to go forward, other times it is neutral like it shifted into neutral. It goes back into first after slowing down to perhaps the point the trans downshifts back to first.

[whiskychaser]

For some reason, I cant copy from the 102 page manual I have for the 4L30E so will quote what it says:

'The mode switch signals the TCM which position the selector lever is in and the gear range the transmission is operating in. The mode switch is bolted to the outside of the main transmission case and splined to the transmission selector shaft. Therefore the digital logic in the mode switch determines which position the selector shaft is in and this information is then sent to the TCM'

I don't know if that is true for yours - Murphy's law states that on yours it is inside the tranny. But if the switch is worn or loose it is going to play havoc. That said, you shouldn't have to get under the car to check what signals the mode switch is sending - you should be able to do that at the TCM end?

[632 Regal]

you should be able to do that at the TCM end?

That's what I am thinking with him driving in manual mode all the time. I will check the switch when I swap trans.
How many times he forget to drop it back into first?
Looked at the fluid again and it is soo black (after adding 2.5 quarts) there must be clutch wear. It does not look like it was ever leaking so where did the fluid go? Does it actually burn off if too hot?
I just found a couple transmission for $100.00 each, this box has 210K so a fresher less abused one would be a logical move.

Abuse...
Added 3 quarts of oil to the engine to get it to the bottom of the dipstick. That's crazy but the engine is not ticking or knocking.

Now to figure how to do the swap, wish I had my old barn here.

[632 Regal]

Just found this little tidbit:


Most range switches are located on the transmission
case with some exceptions. The E36 with the
A4S270/310R the range switch is located is the center
console on the selector lever assembly. The E39
with A4S270R the range switch is located on the
transmission case and is adjustable. The range selector
switch on the A5S360/390R is located inside the
transmission housing. GA6HP26Z is part of the Time
Mechatronics Module.

http://www.e38.org/electran1.pdf
(http://www.e38.org/electran1.pdf)
Time to take a look at this, might have come loose or something, shifter seems sloppy.

[632 Regal]

Got in there and can not take the range switch out, shifter is built around it. I did loosen it and looked where the resistance plate (?) has wear, from 1st to 4th position it looks to have a LOT of wear. Manual mode is not for daily driving just in slippery conditions or steep hills and stuff.

Going to get a shifter first, it would really suck to put in another trans and have the same issue.
GEAR SHIFT LUG (No further intervention permitted) 25161422852

[whiskychaser]

Sounds like a pain :-( Has it got shift lock on it? That wont help

[shogun]

Cheapest new one I can find is ECS http://www.ecstuning.com/ES47863/ at $141
or find a used one, many E36 models used that part number 25161422852 http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partxref.do?part=25161422852&showus=1&showeur=&details=1

[632 Regal]

Installed the new used shifter today, no change. I might need to clear the codes first? Dash says trans and engine... rebooting does nothing for this year (1996) vehicle. Hate to do the trans and have the same.

Any clues would help. Still not sure of what code reader I need, seem to cost the same or more than a different trans.

Lost here, engine is coming up with equal compression and with oil sounds good. Hate to throw this into a parts heap because of an issue I am unable to diagnose.

Anyone have a BMW propitiatory reader I can borrow of purchase?

Dead in the water right now.

[whiskychaser]

The TCM only acts on live faults - it ignores stored ones. So once the issue is resolved you don't need to clear them.

As I mentioned above, when you get transprog it should give you 3 and R only, not 1st. Pulling the TCM plug should do the same - ditch all power to the solenoids. Have you tried that?

Assume the dash is reading PRD321. Don't have a wiring diagram for the 328 but the pins on the TCM for the E34s are normally 33,8,26 and 23. Is the shifter still loose though? A bit obvious but is the cable is adjusted up correctly?

BTW. Are you getting CEL or some other warning for the engine?



Sorry I cant help with the reader.

[632 Regal]

The TCM only acts on live faults - it ignores stored ones. So once the issue is resolved you don't need to clear them.

As I mentioned above, when you get transprog it should give you 3 and R only, not 1st. Pulling the TCM plug should do the same - ditch all power to the solenoids. Have you tried that?


BTW. Are you getting CEL or some other warning for the engine?


Yes I have the CEL on also. I tried to reset it with the tool but it did not change anything except now there is no oil service indicator.

Yes it only has 1st and reverse which is a sign of the range switch. Cable on the shifter is in the only position it can be. Trans solenoids could be all clogged up, adding fluid made it go right into gear but no shift changes.

Will pull the TCM and see if there is anything different.

[632 Regal]

Dream on. For $10.94 I would also buy that tool if it would work, but it will not work on your car = 1996 328:

Vehicle Coverage:

All US Vehicles from 1996 - Current Year (OBD-2)
All European Vehicles 2001 - Current Year Petrol (OBD-2)
All European Vehicles 2004 - Current Year Diesel (OBD-2)
All new CAN protocol cars.

And I assume it will also not read any trans faults.

Maybe Gert has something for you http://www.interfaces4beemers.net/

Might be cheaper to find a specialized shop for transmissions which has a good tool and pay for the scanning.



MS309


The MaxiScan MS309 CAN OBD2 Code Reader provides DIYers quick and easy access to Diagnostic Trouble Codes and their definitions on all OBD2 compliant vehicles sold worldwide since 1996. Though small in size, it is powerful enough to retrieve the same information as large expensive scanners.

Product Features：

Works with all 1996 and later OBDII compliant US, European and Asian vehicles
Easily determines the cause of the "Check Engine Light ( MIL)"
Retrieves generic (P0, P2, P3, and U0) and manufacturer specific (P1, P3, and U1) codes
Turns off Check Engine Light (MIL), clears codes and resets monitors
Displays DTC definitions on unit screen
Views freeze frame data
Displays monitor and I/M readiness status (emissions)
Identifies pending codes
Bilingual interface and DTC definitions in English or Spanish
Retrieves vehicle information (VIN, CID and CVN)
Supports CAN (Controller Area Network) and all other current OBD-II protocols
Large easy-to-read backlit LCD screen
Free DTC lookup software CD
Extremely easy to use and highly reliable
Small in size and conveniently fits in your palm

Vehicle Coverage:

All US Vehicles from 1996 - Current Year (OBD-2)
All European Vehicles 2001 - Current Year Petrol (OBD-2)
All European Vehicles 2004 - Current Year Diesel (OBD-2)
All new CAN protocol cars.

Might help a bit and $16.55 not a great loss, still checking these.

[632 Regal]

Dream on. For $10.94 I would also buy that tool if it would work, but it will not work on your car = 1996 328:

Vehicle Coverage:

All US Vehicles from 1996 - Current Year (OBD-2)
All European Vehicles 2001 - Current Year Petrol (OBD-2)
All European Vehicles 2004 - Current Year Diesel (OBD-2)
All new CAN protocol cars.

And I assume it will also not read any trans faults.

Maybe Gert has something for you http://www.interfaces4beemers.net/

Might be cheaper to find a specialized shop for transmissions which has a good tool and pay for the scanning.




MS300


Features:

1.Works on all 1996 and newer cars & trucks that are OBDII compliant (Including CAN)
2.Can read and clear fault codes can also be used to turn off the check engine light
3.Support multiple trouble code requests: generic codes, pending codes and manufacturer of custom code
4.Retrieves VIN (Vehicle Identification No.) on 2002 and newer vehicles that support 9 Mode
5.Easy to use with one plug-in; Highly reliable and accurate
6.Single plug, easy to use
7.Free CD-ROM covers 7,000 fault codes defined
8.Stand-alone unit，Safely communicates with the on-board computer
9.No batteries needed-powered via detachable OBDII cable
Specifications:
Display: Backlit LCD, 2-line, 8 characters
Operating Temperature: -32 to 122 F°( 0 to 50°C )
Storage Temperature: -4 to 158 F°(-20 to 70°C )
Power: 10.0 to 15.5 Volts provided via vehicle battery
Dimensions: Length 4.4" (113 mm)
Width 2.9" (74 mm)
Height 0.83" (21mm)
Net Weight: 0.25Kg (0.45lb)

Package Included :

1X MS300 Automobile diagnostic
1X CD
1X User Manual




Perhaps?

[632 Regal]

Ordered a generic tester, says it will do P1 so not sure. Something is better than just looking at the car I guess. No stomp test on this thing which always helped on OBD1 cars. New learning curve now.

[632 Regal]

Ordered a cheap OBDII reader, hopefully I can get something confirmed: http://www.ebay.com/itm/121405062298?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2F i.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D1214050 62298%26_rdc%3D1

Until then no clue. Might not do trans specific but in reading CEL issues effect the trans circuit.