First TCD e34 M30 Turbo Kit Delivered today.

[TCD]

Thanks to one of the board members who pushed us to speed up development and deliver the kit earlier than anticipated. I am sure you'll here his thoughts on the kit next week.

Turbo Kit Pic 1 (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0PgDfAtwQJO*bBzm7qm3lg09cNQCobmMmNbEDunVfucJO1Hj1Z jnt!IsduDxTjZdN4YKnyTQWUhid4I4YA!ySa9N5I34xfrw7/S1.jpg?dc=4675482789128275223)

Turbo Kit Pic 2 (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RAAWA6sSaGOjbXIYY9jgjnLyrof!xhxzCUf0bSXUX7UIJr4Z0 U0cimBx7qvccjvCeM2UHcmL7yDogjnHkl!eTkdAVqFpbmxengb TGrcrkzg/S1%20kit.jpg?dc=4675482789122484971)

e34 Turbo Exhaust (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDZAuQVJ0sVGl11v42mCeGqlSDn7YDjSRYszLF5IRUYZJS5o bzOoCFZl!qh5y6GQ2e1iPur2ahGKr0LTCe2*NEpknZ8rL6*Tz8 YFjGmroBMGr1EIert6Q/m30%20e34%20Exhaust.jpg?dc=4675482789115003774)

Thanks,
Todd

[Jeff N.]

OK - anyone wanna confess who's doing this? :D

[George M]

Todd...what is the system config? Is this a turn key turbo kit?. How about some dope on engine management/fuel deliver etc. Don't like the idea of running a turbo on a M-30 without a knock sensor as timing and amount of fuel are critical to engine durability when boosted.
Thanks.

[TCD]

Todd...what is the system config? Is this a turn key turbo kit?. How about some dope on engine management/fuel deliver etc. Don't like the idea of running a turbo on a M-30 without a knock sensor as timing and amount of fuel are critical to engine durability when boosted.
Thanks.

Yes, it's turn key. Software is under development and will be included in the kit. This customer did not require the software. The kit uses 30lb injectors and a FMU for fuel delivery.

In the hands of a intelligent Owner, detonation is not an issue. Boost is set at levels well below those that would cause detonation.

Todd

[Brandon J]

hmmm, I am having trouble getting the pics

[George M]

With all due respect Todd...an intelligent owner doesn't have anything to do with a boosted motor's propensity to pre-detonate. Even the very early E-23 745i turbo factory BMW M-30 engines with dished pistons and reduced compression replete with more primitive Motronic then later NA M-30's had a knock sensor...and for good reason.
If you spend $2K on a turbo set up...the least you can do is run a knock sensor to prevent melt down, low boost or not if you get less octane than you bargained for.
An occassional chipped NA M-30 is reported to detonate on high octane fuel. Not a remote stretch for a boosted turbo motor to do the same thing with much higher consequences.

[TCD]

With all due respect Todd...an intelligent owner doesn't have anything to do with a boosted motor's propensity to pre-detonate. Even the very early E-23 745i turbo factory BMW M-30 engines with dished pistons and reduced compression replete with more primitive Motronic then later NA M-30's had a knock sensor...and for good reason.
If you spend $2K on a turbo set up...the least you can do is run a knock sensor to prevent melt down, low boost or not if you get less octane than you bargained for.
An occassional chipped NA M-30 is reported to detonate on high octane fuel. Not a remote stretch for a boosted turbo motor to do the same thing with much higher consequences.

Listen George,

We made the decision that a knock sensor is not necessary. A knock sensor in fact will not save a motor from a catastrophic failure. It is the responsibility of the Owner of the car to shut it down if detonation occurs. Detonation is painfully obvious. It is not a ghost that someone cannot hear. The motor will not mysteriously self destruct because it has no knock sensor. Yes, a knock sensor is ideal if you are running on the edge all the time but our systems are set at a very conservative psi that is nowhere near the edge.

My biggest battle is convincing people that we know what we are doing. To each his own. No problem.

Todd

[Scott H]

hmmmm.....should be interesting

[George M]

Its an open forum Todd....so you listen up backyard turbo boy. If you care to advertise or represent your system on this board then stand ready to answer questions put forth.
If you don't, its a admission you haven't done your homework. As a degreed engineer with a background in engine design...I do question your system as any thinking man would do who is considering plunking down more than 1 large for a turbo...particularly from an unknown entity like yourself for a self purported "modest boost" system that won't yield the horsepower gain a well boosted system will with a a decent engine management that will control boost and air/fuel to maintain reasonable cylinder temps and therefore head gasket and bottom end engine durability. How many hours have you run on a dyno at the boost pressures you propose to ensure to the M-30 community your turbo set up won't blow up a NA M-30 in short order? Your system going to run a boost shut off? Or are you planning to do your beta testing and use first time customers as guinea pigs? If you haven't done any dyno durability testing, what beta testing sample size have you performed to encompass the variablility of not only your system but the aging M-30's out there that would consider your turbo? Why don't you post a print out of your dyno run...lets see the horsepower values against baseline. You may be able to sell your slipshot turbo set up to the uninitiated but what started as a friendly discussion will quickly erode without a measure of civility on your part. Reread my posts above...gaging your response...I am certain your marketing skills are commensurate with your technical ability and the underlying reason you are indignant relative to questions or comments about your smoke and and mirrors system is you haven't done your home work.

[winfred]

i guess you could run a apc system from a junkyard saab like the volvo turbo guys, it's a knock sensor controled airbleed for the wastegate (if i remember right) i think it's a stand alone system, it's been a while since i hopped up a turbo volvo (i shouldn't of sold my 5 speed wagon ;) )


the least you can do is run a knock sensor to prevent melt down, low boost or not if you get less octane than you bargained for

[George M]

agree Winfred...lots of ways to get it done on a budget....might be one of the best.
Some pretty creative turbo set ups out there.

[TCD]

Its an open forum Todd....so you listen up backyard turbo boy. If you care to advertise or represent your system on this board then stand ready to answer questions put forth.
If you don't, its a admission you haven't done your homework. As a degreed engineer with a background in engine design...I do question your system as any thinking man would do who is considering plunking down more than 1 large for a turbo...particularly from an unknown entity like yourself for a self purported "modest boost" system that won't yield the horsepower gain a well boosted system will with a a decent engine management that will control boost and air/fuel to maintain reasonable cylinder temps and therefore head gasket and bottom end engine durability. How many hours have you run on a dyno at the boost pressures you propose to ensure to the M-30 community your turbo set up won't blow up a NA M-30 in short order? Your system going to run a boost shut off? Or are you planning to do your beta testing and use first time customers as guinea pigs? If you haven't done any dyno durability testing, what beta testing sample size have you performed to encompass the variablility of not only your system but the aging M-30's out there that would consider your turbo? Why don't you post a print out of your dyno run...lets see the horsepower values against baseline. You may be able to sell your slipshot turbo set up to the uninitiated but what started as a friendly discussion will quickly erode without a measure of civility on your part. Reread my posts above...gaging your response...I am certain your marketing skills are commensurate with your technical ability and the underlying reason you are indignant relative to questions or comments about your smoke and and mirrors system is you haven't done your home work.

Sorry George,

I am stepping out for the weekend and don't have time to write a paper for you now. In the meantime take a look at our website. We have about 50k on the m30 motor with boost pressure exceeding 15psi. We currently have 4 test cars with TCD systems installed. Our e34 535i made an additonal 105rwhp on 9.5psi non intercooled. My personal car has about 40 dyno pulls and 30 dragstrip runs and gets hammered every single time I drive it.

We can talk more when I return on Monday.

Todd
http://www.turbochargingdynamics.com
1985 535i 20psi 16k turbocharged
1986 635 18psi 30k turbocharged
1989 325i 14psi 6k turbocharged
1992 535i 9psi 5k turbocharged

[Phil M]

Its an open forum Todd....so you listen up backyard turbo boy. If you care to advertise or represent your system on this board then stand ready to answer questions put forth.
If you don't, its a admission you haven't done your homework. As a degreed engineer with a background in engine design...I do question your system as any thinking man would do who is considering plunking down more than 1 large for a turbo...particularly from an unknown entity like yourself for a self purported "modest boost" system that won't yield the horsepower gain a well boosted system will with a a decent engine management that will control boost and air/fuel to maintain reasonable cylinder temps and therefore head gasket and bottom end engine durability. How many hours have you run on a dyno at the boost pressures you propose to ensure to the M-30 community your turbo set up won't blow up a NA M-30 in short order? Your system going to run a boost shut off? Or are you planning to do your beta testing and use first time customers as guinea pigs? If you haven't done any dyno durability testing, what beta testing sample size have you performed to encompass the variablility of not only your system but the aging M-30's out there that would consider your turbo? Why don't you post a print out of your dyno run...lets see the horsepower values against baseline. You may be able to sell your slipshot turbo set up to the uninitiated but what started as a friendly discussion will quickly erode without a measure of civility on your part. Reread my posts above...gaging your response...I am certain your marketing skills are commensurate with your technical ability and the underlying reason you are indignant relative to questions or comments about your smoke and and mirrors system is you haven't done your home work.
so hes proposing a system with low boost (which really doesnt amt to much performance gain) so he dont have to use a knock sens? rather than have a higher boost w/ sufficient engine management? hmm so basically this guy is paying $1k+ for ****? i guess we'll just have to see how it all turns out later..

ps. george.. your post reminded me of nathaniel hawthorne & how i had to read his passages 2-3x to fully understand em lol. that type of manipulation of language, unbeknownst these days, is a great thing to possess.

*cleans brown off nose*

[Craig]

My biggest battle is convincing people that we know what we are doing. To each his own. No problem.



Haha, this seems to happen quite a bit. Todd, you should make up a standard disclaimer that you post each time you mention your turbo kit, kind of like Shawn D's "E28 air vent diagram" that he uses. :D

George-

Todd's done a shitload of turbos on M30 motors- I doubt there is anyone around anywhere with more firsthand M30 turbo experience than him.

To everyone else- go to mye28.com and ask about Todd. Do a search there for his posts and you'll see he's not making a "slipshod" product here. Todd's kits are at least as good as any other- and the Kormann kit makes the same boost levels but I don't see people here running about calling it "****." Even though for some unknown reason I'm building my own turbo kit, if I were shopping I'd buy Todd's without hesitation.

[George M]

Hi Phil...the point is no need for complicated language...lol...its just about cars :-)
You can get pretty decent horsepower gain even with modest boost on these engines...the point of TCD's system...without spending an arm and a leg.
And there clearly is an economic balance between slipping under the threshold of durability and doing it on the cheap with no or little engine management changes, intercooler, stock compression, no knock sensor etc...but a slippery slope none the less in terms of putting a system out there which will work for the variety of M-30's out there.
Since there are a couple of turbo benchmarks for the M-30 from the factory....pretty easy to see all that goes into a strong and durable turbo motor...quite different than a NA M-30 with a few add on pieces.

As with performance chips, lack of beta testing will expose an underdeveloped system..particularly with regard to detonation when boosting an engine not designed to be....along the lines of TCD's who is trying to make his system economically attractive by not having a complement of engine management controls. No free lunch.... everybody wants boost...but it ain't cheap to do it right. TCD completely missed the point about detonation...it isn't about detection and being a responsible owner...it is about experiencing detonation with one of his systems that you can hear...and because of lack of adequate engine management, not being able to do anything about it even when running the best gas you can find. Same as running too aggressive a performance chip based upon statistically the state of "your M-30" if not accounted for during development.

And TCD...no need for an apology..but a further hint to hone your marketing talent or lack thereof....never follow an apology with a pejorative phrase like "no time to write a paper" whether you are qualified or not...lol.

[JPS]

No, it's a system designed to operate within the bounds of the stock engine management system, tuned to a point where knock control is not required to maintain a reasonable safety level. Would knock control be advantageous? yes. This would allow for optimized tuning. Ideally, a fully programable engine management system would be utilized but it would add several thousand more dollars to the system. There is over 50K miles of testing on these systems at boost levels significantly higher than what the recomended levels are with no failures. These miles are also on well worn engines.
No significant power increase at low boost levels, you say. How is 255whp at 7psi on an M30b34, 283whp at 8-9psi on an M30B35? I am currently running 18psi on a 150K mile engine that has over 30K miles under boost and I drive it over 400 miles/week.

[Jeff N.]

hmmmm.....should be interesting

[JPS]

Its an open forum Todd....so you listen up backyard turbo boy. If you care to advertise or represent your system on this board then stand ready to answer questions put forth.
If you don't, its a admission you haven't done your homework. As a degreed engineer with a background in engine design...I do question your system as any thinking man would do who is considering plunking down more than 1 large for a turbo...particularly from an unknown entity like yourself for a self purported "modest boost" system that won't yield the horsepower gain a well boosted system will with a a decent engine management that will control boost and air/fuel to maintain reasonable cylinder temps and therefore head gasket and bottom end engine durability. How many hours have you run on a dyno at the boost pressures you propose to ensure to the M-30 community your turbo set up won't blow up a NA M-30 in short order? Your system going to run a boost shut off? Or are you planning to do your beta testing and use first time customers as guinea pigs? If you haven't done any dyno durability testing, what beta testing sample size have you performed to encompass the variablility of not only your system but the aging M-30's out there that would consider your turbo? Why don't you post a print out of your dyno run...lets see the horsepower values against baseline. You may be able to sell your slipshot turbo set up to the uninitiated but what started as a friendly discussion will quickly erode without a measure of civility on your part. Reread my posts above...gaging your response...I am certain your marketing skills are commensurate with your technical ability and the underlying reason you are indignant relative to questions or comments about your smoke and and mirrors system is you haven't done your home work.

"Backyard turbo boy", "Slipshot turbo setup", "Smoke and mirror system"...
George, for someone who wants to appear intelligent you certainly present yourself as condesending, ass with a big chip on your shoulder... a cow chip, though you may refer to it as your head. You presented yourself as an adversary, you will be treated as one.
George, these systems are based on successful kits produced in the eighties by Korman/Cartech (when owned by Corky Bell). Bell was and is still consulted in regards to these systems which have been reconfigured and utilize modern turbochargers that operate at higher efficiencies than the originals. It was proven that the system, as designed and tuned within that design criteria, was reliable without the addition of knock control.
With knock control the system can be better optimized but it would also add greatly to the cost, something the market will not support in general. So, these systems, as delivered, get tuned within a safty margin to prevent detonation. It is up to the owner to maintain that level of safety. If they choose to increase the boost they are advised to adjust tuning or upgrade the tunability (knock control, fuel delivery, timing)of the engine management.
TCD can deliver a comprehensive kit that delivers reliable power at a reasonable cost. TCD cannot control what people do after that.
Now, you say you're an engineer and work in engine design. If you have constructive advice that is useful and you wish to share, great. If you choose to chastise a system you know nothing about...
Let's play nice.

[JPS]

agree Winfred...lots of ways to get it done on a budget....might be one of the best.
Some pretty creative turbo set ups out there.

The Saab APC is a nice system but, a word of caution. When installing the APC on another engine, the knock sensativity must be tuned for that engine.

[632 Regal]

wow

[George M]

JPS...you are a joke. You don't need a fully programmable engine management and spend thousands of dollars to make for a successful turbo install on a stock M-30...but you do need better engine management. Chastise a system...your system?
Why should I go on? TCD set the tone in his response to my original question which started this whole mess. You JPS have only confirmed what a prospective customer would be facing in dealing with your company God forbid if anyone on this board were to purchase one of your systems.
Craig...you better handle the PR for TCD and JPS. Waiting for OCD and GPS to weigh in next.
Have fun selling your turbo set ups boys...you have made a real good first impression and successful presentation to this board.
You're fired....lol.

[rickm]

http://frontiernet.net/~jinx194/spanking.gif

[George M]

Thank you...may I have another...hehe.

[Brandon J]

JPS and TCD,

You are regulars at mye28 so you do understand what happens to new people who come in to promote or sell a product. Heck, we even hate it when people we know self promote their products. We are not the typical young group of guys who react to hearsay. We act with skepticism as we should. We question the likes of Dinan, Metric Mechanic, and even BMW. So, when you see us questioning about your kit and you don't like it, you obviously must be new. I personally would like to see the dynos (or several of them over an extended period of time) and raw data. Also, seeing the wear and the condition of the valves of a disassembled engine that used the kit for an extended peiod of time/miles would be great too. Numbers are great and can speak for themselves, but one must be cautious to interpret the numbers. Oh, that "paper" would acutually be beneficial for the many of hundreds of viewers that this board sees not just for George M.

For your sake, I would get collected and not rush into promoting your product until you are ready.

[Brandon J]

Waiting for OCD and GPS to weigh in next.

ROFL, that is too funny.

[bahnstormer]

guys guys take it easy!

i'm interested in 100+ rwhp for my car anyday...
when will u have more information?

[JPS]

JPS and TCD,

You are regulars at mye28 so you do understand what happens to new people who come in to promote or sell a product. Heck, we even hate it when people we know self promote their products. We are not the typical young group of guys who react to hearsay. We act with skepticism as we should. We question the likes of Dinan, Metric Mechanic, and even BMW. So, when you see us questioning and don't like it, you obviously must be new. I personally would like to see the dynos (or several of them over an extended period of time) and raw data. Also, seeing the wear and the condition of the valves of a disassembled engine that used the kit for an extended peiod of time and miles would be great too. Numbers are great and can speak for themselves, but one must be cautious to interpret the numbers. Oh, that "paper" would acutually be beneficial for the many of hundreds of viewers that this board sees not just for George M.

For your sake, I would get collected and not rush into promoting your product until you are ready.

Understood, Brandon.
I'm just defending the fact that the system can be safely operated without a knock sensor system in place. Questioning is fine and encouraged. Todd responded to Georges insistance that knock control be in place then George pushed it and frankly, acted like an ass.
We post every bit of info we acquire from testing, good and bad. If these things chew up engines, it will be posted. Our first run is sold, mostly to friend and aquaintences. I would not sacrafice those relationships to sell kits.
I recently replaced the headgasket on my engine ('86 635 TwinTurbo) with 150+K miles on it, 32K with 18psi boost. The pistons, valves, combustion chambers looked absolutely fine. It idles at 18inHg vacuum and delivers 24mpg combined city/highway. I drive it 400+ miles/wk. If boosting these engines caused major problems, I wouldn't promote the system.
This little business grew out of our hobby (doing this to our own cars) and a market emerged that we decided to persue.
Cheers,
John Sweeney

[JPS]

JPS...you are a joke. You don't need a fully programmable engine management and spend thousands of dollars to make for a successful turbo install on a stock M-30...but you do need better engine management. Chastise a system...your system?
Why should I go on? TCD set the tone in his response to my original question which started this whole mess. You JPS have only confirmed what a prospective customer would be facing in dealing with your company God forbid if anyone on this board were to purchase one of your systems.
Craig...you better handle the PR for TCD and JPS. Waiting for OCD and GPS to weigh in next.
Have fun selling your turbo set ups boys...you have made a real good first impression and successful presentation to this board.
You're fired....lol.

Perhaps I am a joke, George, but, I can at least read. Of course you don't NEED a programable system, I never stated that you did. Of course you need to modify the engine management if you're adding more air... who implied that you don't? This is why the kits include larger injectors and will have remapped chips. If you want to go above and beyond what the supplied system is designed for then you better well have a programable system. If you want to run with an optomized tune, yes, you better run a knock feedback system for safety. But, can you run reasonably well with a lightly modified stock system? Yes, you can, and that is what we are offering.
George, if I have confirmed what prospective customer is facing in dealing with us then you surely have confirmed you maturity level with your amateurish response.

[JPS]

guys guys take it easy!

i'm interested in 100+ rwhp for my car anyday...
when will u have more information?

What we have now is a '92 535 5sp with the non-intercooled system running around MA. It also has a full 3"exhaust which we just had the jigs built for so that it can produced with minimal welds of mandrel bent tube.
At present it's running 8-9psi boost and dynoed at 283whp. We are working with Bell Intercoolers on an intercooler design as the one for the E24/E28 will not fit the E34 engine bay. Once intercooled we will test with higher boost levels (12-15psi) which should bring the power into the 325-350whp range.
You can contact Todd via the TCD website for more info.
Cheers,

[bahnstormer]

thanks jps, i just sent you a PM but that was b4 i read this response....
running around MA mean massachooo right?
i'm in jersey... =]

[JPS]

thanks jps, i just sent you a PM but that was b4 i read this response....
running around MA mean massachooo right?
i'm in jersey... =]

Correct, Massachusetts. TCD is in CT.

[George M]

John...it is you who came to this board to tout your product...not about me. In your words above..."Questioning is fine and encouraged"...couldn't be farther from the truth. Irony is...I think it is great you are turning your hobby and passion into a small business venture resulting in others sharing in the joy of driving a boosted BMW. Will let others judge your approach however as to how you represent yourself and leave it there.

[JPS]

John...it is you who came to this board to tout your product...not about me. In your words above..."Questioning is fine and encouraged"...couldn't be farther from the truth. Irony is...I think it is great you are turning your hobby and passion into a small business venture resulting in others sharing in the joy of driving a boosted BMW. Will let others judge your approach however as to how you represent yourself and leave it there.

George, No, I came to his board to support the fact that it is perfectly fine to run without a knock sensor, we've proven it. Your attack on our product, without knowing anything about it, resulted in my response to you (with the name calling)... childish, yes, but you must admit it was coming down to the level you established.... I'm not proud. (laugh with me)
Understand this, we've done our homework, we run our own cars this way (beyond what we advise customers to do), we've consulted with engineers and people who do this stuff for a living. We are, in fact, mildly intelligent and capable also. I assume the same of you. As for representing myself, I do as I do in all aspects of my life. If I am or my work is unduely attacked I will respond. If I am shown to be wrong, I fully accept that. I am also completely open to others ideas, but I, as you have, may question them and want some sort of backing. That backing was given in that we stated what we have acheved. It's the info we have, it's now the info everyone else has. You either trust us or you don't. Word of mouth will better focus peoples thoughts. We've had a lot of people in our turbo cars and gotten plenty of acolades. Our first run of 10 systems is already spoken for so they'll soon be in the public eye to be judged.
Let's keep it civil,
Regards.

[AllanS]

Information on knock sensors... I read all of the above posts, and was a little bewildered as to why a knock sensor was a big deal. Competant engine management is, in my opinion, a better solution to the problem of detonation, but while I was on the topic, I decided to research some other turbo kits, from BMWs.

Here's the gist of it: no turbo kits for BMW on the market today include knock sensors. From the "inexpensive" Mossellman to the $11k AA kits, there are no knock sensors.

Of course, you're thinking, "Idiot! these are all for m50/s50/m52/s52 engines which have knock sensors already included!"

That's correct. But all these stock knock sensor can do, is retard timing. It can't open the wastegate, or up the fuel pressure to counteract the (apparent) lean condition.

Now, of course, there are aftermarket knock sensors (like the J&S Safeguard), which can most certainly retard boost when detonation is detected. At 500$ retail (not including the sensor itself; this is just for the box), they're rather pricy, for an item that no other turbo shops provide, regardless of the price.

That said, I disagree with George (I think! I'm not sure if that was his main point, the lack of a knock sensor, or the engine management), in that I see nothing wrong with a kit without a knock sensor.

I do agree with him, in that any turn key kit must have competent engine management. I'm not saying that the TCD doesn't have it though- I haven't seen the kit (although Todd had invited me to come over and test it out back in January- he's apparently a few hours away from me in CT).

What defines competent remains in the eye of the customer I think- Personally, I wouldn't mind a stock engine management system with a rising rate regulator there to provide extra fuel under boost, along with larger injectors, but I'm not the kind of person who buys a kit either :)

Oh, and I have no afiliation with TCD or anyone else, I'm just stating my stand on the thing.

[George M]

aside from the riduculous banter....we will simply agree to disagree. As with the low boosted factory turbo M-30's that run less compression than stock NA M-30's...I would never run a boosted M-30 without a knock sensor..."independent of how much boost" I were running. You guys go ahead if you want. Now I have to run along to dinner :p

[Bill in MA]

Being the owner of the current turbo'ed E34 in MA, all I can say is that the proof is in the driving. Just came back from a 400 mile round trip to NY and back, 4 people and tons of stuff in the car, AC on the whole time, and the car didn't miss a beat even in 90+ degree weather. I also commute 600 miles a week in this car. Tons of power, even in top gear steep inclines are no problem. And I can honestly say all with no detonation, no blown head gasket, no holes in the oil pan...no locusts, no black plague, no meteors, or other woes that people on the web seem to contemplate when adding a turbo to a NA car. I heard the same doom and gloom when I (with a lot of help from JPS) turbo charged my 87 Audi 4000 quattro - NA motor with 8.5:1 compression and no knock sensor. "You'll melt the pistons within the first week" they said or you'll "blow the head gasket". Car has over 300,000 miles on it and the only thing wrong is the alternator is failing...Before that we were messing with SAAB SPGs..

It's fine to wail and gnash your teeth all you want about the theoretical problems here, but John and Todd do all their "beta testing" in the real world, with quite remarkable results.

Event without benefit of a pistol grip shifter....

Bill
92 535i TURBO

[winfred]

i'll only say **** happens when it happens, i've seen detonation mulch cast pistons in stock na motors in bmw volvo and mercedes, kinda like no2, it's not if something fails and it runs lean, it's when and all the sudden the oilpan has holes in it or you blow the valves out the tailpipe. didn't pat p run well over 20psi on a couple hundred thousand mile stock long block? as long as it gets all the fuel oil and water it wants it'll tolerate much abuse, it's when the wife fills up with piss water or you get a bad tank of gas and a sensor goes **** up in the wrong way that a safety net no mater how small can be a life saver. do not take this as any kind of attack or bad press, it seems that this has gotten personal on both sides of the argument, both sides have good points

[Kamil]

WOW!!
What a great thread, I can't believe I haven't seen it till just now.

First thing I've realized while reading this (I'm 27YO, w/ BSEE & EIT soon, FWIW) is that some of us never grow from the maturity level of a 10YO no matter how old, how much education, etc. Interesting life ahead of me. :)

My $0.02 w/ regards to TCD/JPS/turbos/knowcksensors, etc.

Knock sensor - as useful as a radar detector. If you're an idiot, you're an idiot no matter what precautions are taken. I've seen a number of cars w/ J$S [sic] Safeguard and/or stand-alone controllers (supposedly well tuned) with a nice hole on the side of the block. Obviously I'm talking about factory NA cars that were turbocharged and probably tuned to less then conservative level.
Side note - If you need to know what they were... they were Hondas. Go ahead; say something and I'll tell you that you're the stereotypical BMW spoiled snot w/ a closed mind. 300WHP from a 1.8L DOHC motor whose pistons move faster then that of some F1 motors is nothing to sneeze at.

JPS - (and I don't mean to brown-nose you here, John) I sold my rims to the guy. No joke, we have spent three hours on the side of the road talking about everything from cars to life, including turbos of course. He is a great guy, very intelligent and social. Spend some time talking to him and you'll realize that this guy is not some shmock who in a drunken state decided it would be cool to turbo a car (I really hope I'm wrong about that, you being Irish n' all.. and in western mass). :D

JPS and TCD's marketing stills seemed excellent to me. How's so? Before I've even met JPS I have exchanged a few emails w/ TCD. He has always answered all my questions and in a very timely manner, might I add.
Their posting here should be seriously be considered less of an advertisement and more of a friendly post giving you an option. Questions/concerns should be directed straight to TCD and not posted in a derogatory matter starting a [childish] flame war on a public domain. Again, something that someone in a profession that requires high moral values should know.

Few things about TCD's turbo kit design. Their target customer is a guy who's driving a car that is at least ten years old, probably in his 40s, college educated, w/ budget managed/influenced by a significant other that is likely not to be aware of her (his? not that there's anything wrong w/ that) partner's "illness" of all things that are automotive. Realizing that, they have attempted to design a product that will appeal in both; the performance as well as budget aspects.
Yes, their kit could be more efficient, yes there could be a huge front mount intercooler w/ water sprayer, water injection, a ball-bearing turbo, an equal length tubular manifold and YES, a gowddamed knock sensor too.... but how many of those would they sell costing three times more?

-Kamil K.

[JPS]

i'll only say **** happens when it happens, i've seen detonation mulch cast pistons in stock na motors in bmw volvo and mercedes, kinda like no2, it's not if something fails and it runs lean, it's when and all the sudden the oilpan has holes in it or you blow the valves out the tailpipe. didn't pat p run well over 20psi on a couple hundred thousand mile stock long block? as long as it gets all the fuel oil and water it wants it'll tolerate much abuse, it's when the wife fills up with piss water or you get a bad tank of gas and a sensor goes **** up in the wrong way that a safety net no mater how small can be a life saver. do not take this as any kind of attack or bad press, it seems that this has gotten personal on both sides of the argument, both sides have good points

The thing is, Winfred, that if a sensor goes bad or you get a bad batch of fuel, etc. at the first sign of detonation you remove load from the engine.
A friend of ours who built his own system did plenty of failure testing for us(whether he knew it or not) in that he (knowingly) pushed his E28 535 hard, with sustained detonation, over and over. Finally a ring land cracked and he had the incentive to install the newer engine he really wanted in the car. I have had my engine detonate many times for seconds at a time while going through the process of tuning. This was with a Saab APC system installed. As I stated before, these knock control systems need to be tuned to the specific engine. You need to put some real effort into damaging an M30 with detonation. Yes, things can happen. You can easily burn valves on an NA engine if you run it too lean. You can break pistons in a turbo engine with sustained detonation. You drive into a bridge abuttment if your steering fails. Your perfectly tuned/maintained, garage kept E34 turbo can get hit by a meteor. Sometimes life just hands it to you.
The kit does what it was designed to do very well. Can more stuff be added to enhance it? Sure. It is up to the customer to decide how far to push things.

[JPS]

WOW!!
What a great thread, I can't believe I haven't seen it till just now.

First thing I've realized while reading this (I'm 27YO, w/ BSEE & EIT soon, FWIW) is that some of us never grow from the maturity level of a 10YO no matter how old, how much education, etc. Interesting life ahead of me. :)

My $0.02 w/ regards to TCD/JPS/turbos/knowcksensors, etc.

Knock sensor - as useful as a radar detector. If you're an idiot, you're an idiot no matter what precautions are taken. I've seen a number of cars w/ J$S [sic] Safeguard and/or stand-alone controllers (supposedly well tuned) with a nice hole on the side of the block. Obviously I'm talking about factory NA cars that were turbocharged and probably tuned to less then conservative level.
Side note - If you need to know what they were... they were Hondas. Go ahead; say something and I'll tell you that you're the stereotypical BMW spoiled snot w/ a closed mind. 300WHP from a 1.8L DOHC motor whose pistons move faster then that of some F1 motors is nothing to sneeze at.

JPS - (and I don't mean to brown-nose you here, John) I sold my rims to the guy. No joke, we have spent three hours on the side of the road talking about everything from cars to life, including turbos of course. He is a great guy, very intelligent and social. Spend some time talking to him and you'll realize that this guy is not some shmock who in a drunken state decided it would be cool to turbo a car (I really hope I'm wrong about that, you being Irish n' all.. and in western mass). :D

JPS and TCD's marketing stills seemed excellent to me. How's so? Before I've even met JPS I have exchanged a few emails w/ TCD. He has always answered all my questions and in a very timely manner, might I add.
Their posting here should be seriously be considered less of an advertisement and more of a friendly post giving you an option. Questions/concerns should be directed straight to TCD and not posted in a derogatory matter starting a [childish] flame war on a public domain. Again, something that someone in a profession that requires high moral values should know.

Few things about TCD's turbo kit design. Their target customer is a guy who's driving a car that is at least ten years old, probably in his 40s, college educated, w/ budget managed/influenced by a significant other that is likely not to be aware of her (his? not that there's anything wrong w/ that) partner's "illness" of all things that are automotive. Realizing that, they have attempted to design a product that will appeal in both; the performance as well as budget aspects.
Yes, their kit could be more efficient, yes there could be a huge front mount intercooler w/ water sprayer, water injection, a ball-bearing turbo, an equal length tubular manifold and YES, a gowddamed knock sensor too.... but how many of those would they sell costing three times more?

-Kamil K.

Hey! I want a refund on those wheels/tires!!! The rear ones are broken, they keep spinning violently as I try to drive away.

[Craig]

Craig...you better handle the PR for TCD and JPS. Waiting for OCD and GPS to weigh in next.
Have fun selling your turbo set ups boys...you have made a real good first impression and successful presentation to this board.
You're fired....lol.

Well, OK George. I have no dog in this fight. I'm creating a turbo for my car because I like to do that sort of thing. However, I know TCD and his partner Sweeney (JPS?) pretty well from the E28 forum.

The M30 is an extremely robust engine, and will handle MODERATE boost with just fuel enrichment. This has been proven time and time again. Once you start going crazy with boost, yeah you should be more careful. But your blanket proclaimations are simply not correct for low boost systems.

[Jeff N.]

/on soapbox

To the Todd's, John's & Bruno's et all of this world - keep up the good work. Without you guys, we'd have very little to do or talk about.

I think it's much easier to find fault with what you do than to take the risk and put in the energy to actually make something! Good for you guys.

For those who feel they can improve on what you build, I hope they choose to collaborate and add to your work vs. detract and naysay.

Sooo...good luck to y'all and don't let this get you down. There's a lot of us very interested in what you do and appreciate the regular updates.

/off soapbox

Cheers!

Jeff

[winfred]

i had to run a ******* customer off who wanted to bring a set of mercedes rims back over 2 years later saying that they were all bent now


Hey! I want a refund on those wheels/tires!!! The rear ones are broken, they keep spinning violently as I try to drive away.

[1992 BMW 535i]

I'm more of a supercharger nut, but I can't find any of those for my 3.5L. Todd I see that you have an installation on an E28, but have you installed one on a E34 with the 3.5? Would love to see the rwl HP numbers....what kind of hp increase do you see on an 3.5 without the intercooled and can you add the intercooler later?

[Kamil]

I'm more of a supercharger nut, but I can't find any of those for my 3.5L. Todd I see that you have an installation on an E28, but have you installed one on a E34 with the 3.5? Would love to see the rwl HP numbers....what kind of hp increase do you see on an 3.5 without the intercooled and can you add the intercooler later?

have you read any of this thread?











lemme save u the trouble:
yes
approx 100HP
they're working on it

[mikey535im]

Kamil,
'92's talking belt driven Supercharger not Turbo :)

[1992 BMW 535i]

Kamil, no need for the snappy remark. And no, I did not read the entire thread as most of it seemed to be dedicated to a private disagreement. As such, I did not see the post where the output was stated. I don't have any turbo experience, having mostly built musclecars where forced induction meant a 8-7-1 belt driven superchargers.